Last fall we had a class looking at these ancient stories. And we did, I think, six cases last fall. So that's one of the reasons we started on case seven this And last week we did case eight. So tonight we could do case nine. For me, this is like streaking through the book, going through the book very fast to do one story, one case a week. So we could start on case nine tonight. Case 9 is about a monk talking with another monk.

[01:14]

And the first monk is called a monk. The second monk is called Zhaozhou. In Chinese, Zhaozhou. And in Japanese, Zhaoshu. Zhaozhou, so this monk, this monk who we call Zhaozhou, his monk name actually is Zongshen. And when he became an abbot, I think he became an abbot like when he was 80. His training with his teacher, his teacher was another monk whose name was Nan Chuan.

[02:36]

Chuan means south, spring. So Zhaozhou is a successor of Nan Chuan. Zhaozhou lived from 778 to 897, as they say, 119 years, which is older than anybody on the planet at this time, according to my latest survey. The oldest person is 116. Zhaozhou, when he became abbot, his monastery was at a place called Zhaozhou. So we call him, he's known as Zhaozhou.

[03:38]

But his monk's name is Zongshan. Zen was called lip zen. Lip zen. Because when he talked, sparks came off his lips. He often didn't need to say very much. So we in English sometimes call these stories cases or public cases.

[04:44]

And the word case is interesting when it's used like, for example, in the expression, not the case. It is not the case. which means it's not like that. Or you can put to it positively, this is the case. And this is the case is the honor which we traditionally bestow upon all the stories in this collection. All these stories are this is the case in this class the case what in this class the case is intimate communication and these stories are cases of intimate communication I propose to you intimate transmission between

[05:58]

bodhisattvas between humans, or between humans and teachings which aren't necessarily human. This book is not usually considered a human, but there can be a conversation, an intimate conversation between this book and a human. And there are stories of Zen practitioners who have conversations with books, intimate conversations with books. And in that conversation, in that intimacy, we have the case. We have reality realized.

[07:05]

So some of our ancestors and some of our ancestors' friends picked up books and read them, and then the wonderful communication occurred. And in the song of the precious mirror samadhi, as you know, there's a part where it says, the meaning is not in the word. The meaning is not in this book. But it responds to the arrival of energy. not just any energy, but sort of your true energy. When you bring your true energy to this book or to any meeting, the meaning is not in who you're meeting. Whether it's a human or an animal or a tree or a book, the meaning is not in the tree or the animal.

[08:19]

The meaning comes forth in response to the energy which comes in meeting. So part of our responsibility in realizing the meaning of the teaching is to take good care of the energy of our life. We bring it to each meeting. It's our responsibility to take care of the energy and the energy is not necessarily my energy or your energy, but I want to take care of our energy. I want to take care of your energy

[09:23]

My energy, no. I want to take care of our energy. I don't want to get into my energy and your energy. Such things are there, but the meaning is not in the meeting. The meaning is in the meetings. Zhaozhou, they say, after he left his teacher, they say, he claimed, he said that he visited over 80 masters of master-in-law. Master Ma is perhaps the most prolific in terms of giving birth to successors, the most prolific of all Zen teachers. He had 139 enlightened. I don't know if he had any unenlightened successors.

[10:27]

I don't think so. Zhaozhou who lived, Zhaozhou who is the grandson, one of the of Matsu. So Matsu had 139 successors. So you can imagine he might have had thousands of grandchildren, male and female, successors. He had thousands and thousands of students. Was anybody here go to China at the same time as me? Jackie? Anybody else? So a group of us went to China quite a few years ago, and one of the places was Master Ma's temple. Master Ma is featured in case number three of the Blue Cliff Record, and the title of the case is Master Ma is Unwell.

[11:34]

So we visited what's left of his monastery. It's just a nice temple. And next to the temple is an alley that's really fun. It's full of shops where you can buy all kinds of Buddhas and other kinds of Buddhist jokes. Anyway, it's lots of fun. And the people on the tour did some really great shopping there. Back when Matsu was alive, the monastery was much bigger. And it said it took, I forgot how long it took. I can't remember. But it took quite a while to ride on a horse around the monastery. He had thousands and thousands of students while he was alive.

[12:36]

139 of them became his successors. Visited over 80, according to Zhaozhou. So Zhaozhou was a student of Nanchuan. Nanchuan is a student of Matsu. After Nanchuan left his teacher, and I don't know what happened. I don't know if he left before his teacher died or not. I don't remember. Anyway, he left his teacher when he was 16. He studied with his teacher until he was 60. And there's people at Zen Center who are studying with their teacher who are over 60. I couldn't study with my teacher, Suzuki Roshi, until I was 60. If he had lived to be 100 and, let's see, anyway, if he lived to be about 100, I would have been able to study with him until I was 60. If he lived to be 99, I could have studied with him until I was 60.

[13:39]

I don't know if I would have. I don't know if he would have let me stay around or if he would have said, attention, son, go away. Get out of here. I don't know what he would have said if he would have let me hang out. I can imagine I might have wanted to. It might have been. I mean, if he was in good health, can you imagine what it would be like if Suzuki Reishi had lived 39 years more than he lived? What would have happened in this world? Anyway, I didn't have that chance. But Zhao Zhou did. of this opportunity and then he left his teacher but he didn't like set up shop as we say right away. He didn't become an abbot right away. He visited over 80 teachers who were successors of his Dharma grandfather.

[14:41]

And then he became an abbot for 40 years. So there's quite a few stories about, quite a few examples, not exactly stories, they're stories, but they're short. Quite a few stories, quite a few intimate conversations of Zhaozhou and the monks. One of them goes like this. What is Giorgio? Which, you know, would be similar to me saying, what is Cathy? What is Simon?

[15:43]

What is Francesca? or what is Frankie, my granddaughter? But not actually can ask her that question, and I will get a response. I think I've already told you. Her name is Frankie. Her birth certificate name is Francesca, but she goes by Frankie. And if I vary the pronunciation at all, I get corrected. And since I don't mind getting corrected, I do vary it a little bit. Anyway, what is Seth? What is Palmer? That's the question.

[16:45]

And Zhaozhou says, East gate, west gate, north gate, south gate. This is the intimate communication example. I guess this is an example of lip zen. One, two, three. East gate. Were there any sparks? No? Okay. So that's the example of intimate communication for tonight.

[17:56]

Now we can look at that example and find some more interesting ones, but this is the one which happens to be next in line. And I must admit, I've confessed to you before, when this class started and I saw what the next case was going to be, I was awestruck and This is intimate communication. Do you remember it? Do you remember it, Simon? You missed the first class. You got an excuse. Do you remember it, Bernard? Do you remember it, Amelia? Do you remember it, Courtney? Without looking... No? Do you remember it, Francesca? Okay.

[19:03]

Do you remember it, Maddie? Okay. Ready? Get set. What? Something about that. It goes kind of like this. Francesca asked me, what is Buddha? Go ahead. You are Francesca. That's case number seven. In this case, actually, a monk named Hui Zhao asked Fa Yan, what is Buddha? And Fa Yan said, you are Hui Zhao. That was the first one. And when I saw that, I thought, you know, this is intimate communication. This is going to be challenging. See intimate communication there. But as you all know, we did see it, didn't we?

[20:05]

Not with our fleshy eye, but with our Dharma eye, we saw the intimate communication in this. What is Buddha? You are Bernard. The next case, getting close. Sweet, sweet, huh? Sweet ends eyebrows. What did he say? What, huh, what? I've been talking to you guys all summer. Eyebrows. And in the case, the way it's set up, nobody actually said anything. But his Dharma siblings, when they heard about it, they had quite a bit to say. Again, this is an example of intimacy. And now tonight we have, what is Zhaozhou?

[21:08]

And the answer is the four gates. Zhaozhou's four gates. And some people say that the town of Zhaozhou has four gates. You know, maybe it did. Is there anything else we should discuss tonight now that we've taken care of that? Now that we've looked at this example of Intimate transmission. Intimate transmission of the Dharma. Right? What is Jaojo? What is Paddy? And the answer, the four gates. That's the example. What does it mean to me? It means Dina. What did Dina mean to you?

[22:18]

I have no words. You have no words. Those are your words? Did the energy arrive? Thank you. Earlier you were talking about energy, and you talked about my energy and your energy, but you said that it wasn't that, it was our energy.

[23:56]

So I'm wondering if that our energy is correctable with energy as used in the paramedics? Yes. You're welcome. That's what they say. Does Seth wonder that? I figured it's just questioning you figured it's just questioning the monk asked a question and when his friend said four gates was that a question too?

[25:52]

Yeah, those words did arise. Were those words, Northgate, Southgate, Eastgate, Westgate, were those a question? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like a response, right? But now you're asking about it and you're saying something about questioning. So I'm saying, yeah, to me now that sounds like a question. Northgate sounds like a question. You ask me who I am, I tell you North Gate, South Gate, East Gate, West Gate. Now, that's the question of our relationship now.

[27:10]

What I say now is the question of our relationship. And then maybe just wondering about this question. That seems appropriate. Okay, yes, Courtney and Bob, who's that way. Did you want to point to something, Courtney? No, I just got my hand up. But you weren't pointing at the ceiling. You just wanted to say something at some point. OK. Courtney, Bob, and then Corina. My first reaction was sort of seeing the similarity in these really simple answers that seemed like looking at something experiential.

[28:11]

Like there's the, what is Buddha? You are a Tao. Could JaJo have said something different and the simplicity of it been sort of the heart of the matter? But then I thought, and JaJo is the town too, so he's saying the town is Four Gates and the man JaJo is Four Gates. This town is Four Gates. So I think he couldn't have just said anything else. His choosing of the words, I think, was very precise for that reason. But I'm not sure about that. It does seem like his words However, the theory that he could have said something else That theory is one theory.

[29:11]

There's another theory, which is Zhaozhou cannot say anything other than what Zhaozhou says. And Zhaozhou cannot say anything other than what the town of Zhaozhou says in the moment. That's another theory that go along with it. There's got two there. Yes, Bob? Last week we had a question on my eyebrows. And it seemed to me to be an invitation, an invitation to give an answer, respond, to meet Edoard. And in the same way this Stop.

[30:16]

It's an invitation to you. It seems like an invitation to you, but it also, does it seem like an invitation to you, to you? Okay, good. I agree. It's an invitation. Mm-hmm. and they're all gates, and at the same time, they might seem like barriers. Like, you know, what can you do with North Gate? I mean, it's a shopping center, by the way. In some sense, we're being given an invitation to intimacy, which we cannot do. We're given an invitation to something that is living in stillness.

[31:25]

And when we hear about this, when I hear about North Gate, South Gate, East Gate, West Gate, I might want to like, you know, But the teaching is when you hear about them, don't move. Don't move when you hear about Northgate and so on. And if you are still, you enter without moving. After Karina, okay? Well, I was just, I've been reading the stories from the gateless gate. So this, that's what came to mind for me. Yeah, yeah. The gateless barrier. Yeah, so this is a...

[32:33]

This response by Jiaojiao might have like what's set up in another collection's title. Lisa. The way it sounds to me, the first image is about the gate. asking me what I am. And there is something that is, in a way, confined. Then there are also days that, as you just mentioned, could be in addition. But I also see, like, there is a border, but it doesn't mean that there's something fixed that can still go out, and things can still enter it. Yeah, it's still something with sort of border that saying north, south, west, east sounds like very precise, but then they're gates.

[33:49]

It's very precise and they're called gates, but they're also like this. And What's a jiao-jiao? What's a reb? And I call this a gate. It's a barrier. This is a barrier between us. Not if it's open, right. It's closed. And this is how we enter with this barrier. You want to know about... Okay, deal with this barrier. And if I tell you that, you can say, well, deal with my barrier. You can't get me.

[34:52]

I got this. But also, this is called a support cushion. This is a support cushion barrier by which... we meet. What did you say? Multifunction. Multifunction. Bernard? I sort of see a sort of a substantiation It's kind of a hook. Even the question to Ja-Jo was actually a hook. Ja-Jo cut it, dissolved it, and sort of sent it back. So most of the stories are about these hooks that get thrown to a client as a student or a teacher.

[35:54]

So yeah, it's kind of interesting, just the substantiation sort of dissolves in the whole interaction. Or even, I remember a teacher of mine once asked me to play the banjo, and I said, oh, I don't know, I can't play the banjo. He goes, why not? I said, well, I'm too nervous. And he said, well, be a nervous Buddha. And it was kind of like this invitation to be whatever, you know, heart beating, energy. Mm-hmm. to be nervous without substantiation. And if somebody was really relaxed, same thing, but the person might not be able to access that they substantiated the relaxation.

[36:56]

I still access the Yeah, sure enough, not being able to play turned into the Northgate. I thought it would be more appropriate, but that's not what it showed up. Yeah. Was there somebody over there? I see, I see Doris, and was there somebody over there? Yes? Skyler? It kind of sounded like Jiaojiao was pointing him towards the exits. Like, it kind of sounded like they were already in the temple, so he's pointing them to the gates, so if you're inside, then those are the exits.

[37:57]

And visited 80 other teachers. So maybe he's giving him the invitation to, if he doesn't get it, he'll look for it somewhere else. Thank you. Yes, Therese. the barriers, but more the possibilities, because it's going to all directions. And the gate for me is always more possibility, not a barrier. And then I thought, where's the intimacy? And then I felt boundless, like possibilities, boundless, boundaries. So that could be within the possibility of the boundlessness of the intimacy and openness. Mm-hmm. Well, there's a story that there's boundlessness in the intimacy, and there's openness, but also there's barriers in the intimacy, too.

[39:16]

Yes, Jordan. Hearing this, like, student-teacher relationship, my first question is to the student would be, is the gate open or closed? Are you putting up gates between me and you, or are you saying that these gates are open? And the more we talk, I think, you know, it doesn't matter. Either way, something is being completed. Like, if a barrier is being put up or if a gate is being opened, there's always some sort of relationship building going on. We'll see that way. Yep. Intimacy is the case. And then if that's so, then how do you deal with the case of intimacy? How do you practice openness with this intimacy? How do you of this intimacy?

[40:22]

Yes, Paul? It's intimate that he took the time to say all four gates instead of just saying the four gates. In this case, it was. And then there's another case where he says, And then he was careful not to say, it's the back gate. He just said the front gate. And another time he said, it's the side gate. And he was careful not to say front gate or back gate. Always, always careful.

[41:29]

But he never just said, it's the gates. I don't know. I haven't yet memorized all his responses. Okay, I see Miles and Sean. So in this case, was he careful in saying all the gates and that the direction didn't exist? In this case, I vote for him being careful in what he said. But the next part was what? I wouldn't actually say that it doesn't matter. I would say that the directions are an opportunity for intimacy. Not that it doesn't matter. It's just that he wants to use directions as the way to in order for them to both realize who they are.

[42:45]

He wants to, this time he's going to use those. But it's not that it doesn't matter. Or that it doesn't matter. It's how we're going to use them. Like Sarah's not here tonight. The currency of consciousness is like words. So we should be careful how we use these words. What are we using them for? We're using them for intimacy. We're using them for the intimate transmission of... We're trying to remember it. That's what we're using words for. I'll be right back to you. Can you hold it? I'll be right back. Sean? going towards the north gate, you're leaving the south gate.

[44:05]

All that. All that is JoJo. You say north and then south and then east and then west. In other words, were the first two opposites? I'll be right back. East, west, south, north. Simon? Is there more to REV than receiving and employing?

[45:09]

Nope. That exhausts them. That's practice enlightenment. And not just for so-called me. And Simon, the receiving and employing, also Simon is like that too. It's not like I'm that way and you're different. There's nothing more to you. And that's not just you. Everybody is supporting you in that practice. And in that way you support everybody. That's the case. We're trying to, and then we're, we sing the song of remembering that. We sing the song of remembering that that's what we are. We're moment by moment receiving and employing, receiving and employing, but without moving from receiving to employing.

[46:15]

Like receiving and employing without moving. Receiving and giving, and you don't have to move for that to happen. What I am, without moving, I am a reception and I am a bestowing. And just for now... Yes, Justin? To me, he was saying Yeah, I think, I think, well, at least, at least Jao Justin would be that way. I don't know if Jao Joe was that kind, but I think that's the spirit.

[47:19]

As Icarus used to say, if I'm walking too slowly, you can go ahead. If me being this way is like too boring, I understand. I mean, you know, it's not that interesting that all I am is receiving and employing. Some people might find that quite boring. And if it is, you can follow Justin's suggestion. and go find somebody who's more than just receiving and employing all day long, like you. And I don't mean to be rigid about it, but, you know, that is the name of our practice. You know, the awareness of the self, of the self which is receiving and employing.

[48:26]

being mindful of that, being undistracted from that, that's the hallmark, that's the criterion of our zazen. Which also can be translated instead of self-receiving and employing, it can be translated as self-fulfillment. The self is fulfilled in the receiving and employing, that's the fulfilled self. That's it. How boring. That's why we should work at not forgetting something boring. As someone told me, one of the people in the practice period has encountered some boredom. And if you're really angry, boredom doesn't come. If you're really lusty, boredom doesn't come.

[49:30]

If you're really confused, we don't need boredom. But if you're not confused and you're not angry and you're not grasping and you'd like just calmly here receiving and employing, then there's certain agencies of habit which send boredom to distract you from being so simple. you have better things to do than just to sit here and employ. I mean, you could be famous. You're not going to get famous by just sitting here and receiving and employing yourself. But that's what boredom tells you. There's more interesting things to do in this life than just be fulfilled every moment. Same old thing, same old zazen.

[50:36]

But even though people are bored, they're continuing to be here in such a way that boredom is going to keep coming and testing them. Yes, Maddy? I was wondering, Personally, I'm happy with this case. Me too. Because his response seems sort of random to me. Random? But it seems like people have a lot of deeper understanding about this. So I was wondering about, basically, who gets to decide what is Dharma? Does the intent of Zhao Zhou matter? And does the intent and impact What if he actually just said something random and someone thought that was profound and so wrote it in this book? Would that still have merit? If you got the sparks coming off your mouth.

[51:43]

Huh? So people wrote down all these things he said. Each one, almost all of them, you could say, was that random? Was that arbitrary? But I guess because of the sparks, everybody in China remembered what he said. But I guess my question is, if I was sitting in that room, I wouldn't see those sparks. You think you wouldn't? I don't think I would. In the story, I'm not seeing the sparks. I don't know how many people saw the sparks. You might be among the non-spark-seers. To be a great Dharma teacher and... Yes, you just have to be a great Dharma teacher. Right. That is what is necessary. I vow to be a great Dharma teacher. I vow to enter all the Dharma doors.

[52:48]

The East Dharma door, the West Dharma door, the North Dharma door, and the South Dharma door. I vow to enter those, plus the East, South, East, South, West. I vow to enter all the Dharma doors. I vow to be a great Dharma teacher. Yeah. But if I asked you a question and you responded to something, and we could all dissect that, and we're all offering these really cool, interesting opinions about what he meant, but we're probably not going to know what he meant. And it's only about him being a great Dharma teacher. Isn't his intention the Dharma? And if we can't ever get to that? Well, you know, one could say that what he always meant was intimacy. That's what he always meant. Yeah. I don't think anybody knows how these cases got chosen. They did get chosen, and they're compiled in books.

[53:54]

That did happen. But the Buddha taught that nobody actually knows how that happened. Again, there could be many theories about how this person's words got compiled in a book and how this person's didn't. Many theories about that. But the Buddha said, yeah, yeah, those are nice theories and I hope you enjoy them. And maybe you can have scientific research. But nobody will ever know actually the causal process by which Zhaozhou's teachings are remembered. Nobody knows how Suzuki Roshi's teachings are remembered by people. But some people are going around, maybe. Some people might be saying that they know how it works that people are remembering Suzuki Roshi's teachings. I studied with him for a while and I do not know what made him the person he was, and I don't know what people appreciate him.

[55:02]

And I also, when he was alive, I couldn't understand why some people didn't appreciate him. I didn't know why. I actually thought, why... I saw some people, he loved them. To me, it looked like he really loved them, and they had better things to do than hang out with him. And I couldn't understand how they could pass up on this chance, you know. But they did. They had other things to do. You had a chance to be with him and you did something else? If he was going to come back for half an hour, you know, would you be busy? No, no, this time I wouldn't have anything better. Anyway, I don't know why people are interested in Dharma. I don't see how that works. But when they are, I think it's so wonderful that people want to contemplate what some person said in the Tang Dynasty when asked, who are you?

[56:19]

And that what he said, somehow, people took care of that for 1,200 years. It's a lot of work to take care of some words for 1,200 years. But people did it happily. Why? I don't know. I don't know how. You say, well, they're getting a lot of money to copy these texts. I don't know. That's just a theory. So I don't know. I don't know, you know, like that story, you know, that I didn't actually witness it, but Suzuki Roshi was going through a door to the zendo. And as you know, we step inside, join our palms and bow, right, when we're going to zendo. So he did that. And one of his students came in behind him and didn't stop. I don't know why he didn't stop. And I don't know how it happened that Suzuki Roshi stepped in the door, joined his palms, and bowed.

[57:26]

Now, he's a Zen master. You could think, doesn't a Zen master have something better to do than step through doors, bring the hands together, and bow? Isn't there some greater teaching than that? Couldn't he step through the door and say, okay, everybody, what's up? Because sometimes they do do that, right? They walk in the door and then they yell at everybody. Now that's like a Zen master, right? What is a Buddha? Don't they have something better to do than that? But just like to step through the door and stop and do that, it's not that, a lot of people do that. And he did it too, so he bows. But the person behind him didn't stop, which is quite unusual. So then he ran into Suzuki Roshi. How did that? I know. Was that random? I don't know. I don't know.

[58:27]

So anyway, so he runs into Suzuki Roshi, hits him from the back. You know, so Suzuki Roshi is like this. The guy bumps into him and Suzuki Roshi goes like that. And his elbow hits his chest. Now, did Suzuki Roshi intentionally elbow him because he didn't stop? Or was it just a mechanical response to the body? I don't know. But that person who got hit, he told me. And I heard it and then said, now I'm telling you. Why am I telling you? And why will you tell the story? And maybe it'll last for a thousand years. because Suzuki Roshi practiced elbow Zen. Lightning bolts came out of his elbow. But I don't know, I don't know how that works. I don't, I really don't, I'm not just being, I do not.

[59:34]

And some people do know, but then when they tell me that they know, I say, wow, how did you get there? But anyway, some people do know, but I'm not one of them. And I don't think Jojo is either. And if Suzuki Roshi and that guy who bumped into him, if they didn't have the same understanding in that moment, like pasta, they both were in that moment and it was intimate, but they might not have the same understanding. Yeah, it might be. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. But there's different realizations of it. So, for example, someone, I think, Ginny, did I say it? Ginny? She said to me, she said, can there be intimacy between a psychotherapist and the patient?

[60:43]

And I said, yeah. Again, there is intimacy, right? Can they realize the intimacy? Yes. And does that heal illness? Yes, it does. That's what heals illness. And then she said, what's the difference between, is there a difference between that, I think she said, is there a difference between that intimacy between a doctor and a patient where there's healing in both directions and Dharma transmission? Not necessarily. However, sometimes a healing can occur, but one of the people is a professional healer and the other one does not yet become a professional healer, even though they're healed. They actually had the intimacy and they realized it with the healer and they were healed.

[61:47]

They're not yet ready to play the role of the healer, so there's a difference. right after being healed, you might not be ready to now start healing people. You might just feel like, I feel great, but I'm not yet ready to go healing other people. I don't even know what happened. Whereas this person got healed once too, and then healed many people. And between when that person got healed and when they started healing, they did postgraduate training after the healing. there's different positions in the intimacy process, even though it's real intimacy and real freedom, you know, and real medicine. But somewhat different positions. Like, again, when I went to Zen, Dharma transmission, I was not ready to then be the teacher for somebody else the next day. Does that make sense?

[62:51]

I could barely remember the ceremony. So I had to go over the ceremony a lot before I could then take the teacher position. And then by doing that over and over, I change and become more aware of the process of playing that position. But when the person first realizes the intimacy, they do not they're not yet ready to turn around and take on the role. So it's the same intimacy. Both people are sharing the function of it, but they have somewhat different positions. And the person on this side can become eventually the person on the other side, but we don't know how long it will take for them to do that. Just like some clients in psychotherapy healed and they're helped, and then they think, this was so helpful for me, I want to go to school to learn how to do that for people. And then ten years later they play the other role. But they were inspired to go through the training because of the healing of the intimacy.

[63:57]

So it's the same intimacy, but with somewhat different positions in the process. Okay? Yes? Okay. And I agree with her. Right. But there are levels of realization of intimacy or there are exemplary, are these exemplary cases of intimacy? They exemplify certain... Yeah, these cases are exemplary, these are exemplary, these are, these are intimacy exemplified for the ages.

[65:07]

And it is possible to be, and we are an intimate relationship, but sometimes even though we are, because of a lack of realization, act like we're not. Like we actually are in intimacy and we actually think the person we're talking to is not our friend. We think that. And we believe it. We think it's true. that's not much realization of intimacy by your ideas of people. So some people realize intimacy with people who they're intimate with and the other person doesn't. So this person understands that this person is their friend and the other person thinks, doesn't understand that the other person is their friend. So the Buddha met people. The Buddha understood that she was his friend. The Buddha understood intimacy. The other person who was in an intimate relationship did not understand that and said, no, you're not my friend.

[66:10]

I'm not intimate with you and I don't want to be intimate with you. Matter of fact, I want to hurt you. A deep realization of intimacy. We no longer want to hurt anybody. That's the way the realization is. We just want to give ourselves to everybody. And some people have this deep realization of their intimacy with people. And sometimes they meet other people who have a deep intimacy and they're both willing to give themselves completely. But most of us have maybe a little bit of reservation of giving ourselves completely to everybody we meet because we don't have that depth of realization of reality. which is our intimacy. And the people who have realized it are very inspiring to them because they do this beautiful thing of being careful about, you know, North Gate, East Gate, West Gate, South Gate.

[67:11]

They make that effort, you know, and we can feel that they gave this guy the best thing they could give him. These aren't to be... Well, I guess I... It seems like coded language, right? I mean, it's not accessible by our standards of thought in terms of... It's not accessible by our standards of thought. It's not accessible by consciousness. That's right. But even if you studied, even if you were a Zen scholar and learned all about Zhaozhou and how Chinese cities were built and what Zen monasteries were like, all that study, which you could get, you know, lots of papers published. Still, none of that accesses. What accesses it is the intimacy. They're cues or they're, what do you call it, they're currency.

[68:18]

You can use them to be careful with. They're things you can be careful with. And by being careful with them and generous with them and patient with them and so on, by relaxing with them, by relaxing with the words, but in order to relax with words, we need to be generous. and careful of them, and patient with them, and diligent with them. Then we can relax with them. And then they surprise us. And the sparks come flying out of all the words. Again, somebody else says, doesn't matter. It's not that I'm saying it doesn't matter what you're saying. I wouldn't say that what I say doesn't matter. I would say that what matters is that whatever I say, I'm generous and ethical and patient and diligent with what I say.

[69:24]

But I'm not saying that what I'm saying doesn't matter. It's just that what really matters, what's really important, is the way you use the currency. Right. And I think I get hung up on it because it seems like in order for us to understand the generosity of particular what you're saying, particularly what you're saying in a given context, has a lot to do with the context and understanding of how this generosity... Okay, just start with generosity, okay? And you're having trouble seeing the generosity in the story, maybe. No. You have to know more about how to be generous with the story. If you're more generous with the story, you will see the generosity in the story. Hopefully. And then it would not matter what the story was because I'd just be generous enough to let fly whatever's... But again, to say it doesn't matter, again, it's like it's not very respectful to say it doesn't matter.

[70:37]

It's more like whatever's being said is a giving rather than doesn't... You know, if you come in the door, it isn't that I say it doesn't matter that it's you. it does matter that it's you because you're the person I'm going to be generous with. I mean, you're my guy. You're my life. To say it doesn't matter. It's just that if you get replaced by Raven or Bob, then they will be my opportunity for this practice. And if you look at these stories and you don't see the of the people involved. If you don't see the monk, oh, look at that monk, he's going way out of his way to talk to this great Zen master who a lot of people do not want to talk to, Jojo, because, you know, the lightning coming out of his lips. Like, just, you know, let somebody else talk to him. This monk, like, giving his life.

[71:40]

And if I don't see the generosity there, that's because I'm not bringing my energy to it enough. I'm not bringing my generosity. If I'm generous with that monk, I will see that that monk is turning the wheel of generosity in this universe for me and you. If I continue to practice, I will see Zhaozhou being generous. But without me being generous, I might miss the generosity. Now sometimes people are not being generous and some people just, excuse the expression, crash through their stinginess and pry them open and say, I'm generous with you. You must see this. And this person says, okay. But usually when people do not see generosity, I usually say, practice more generosity towards that stingy person. But what about when a person is really stingy? Yeah.

[72:44]

So it's not, I wouldn't say it doesn't matter that they're appearing stingy. I would say that they're very important. They're important and how they appear is your opportunity, is your sitting, is the gate. It's the gate. Which, that you can come up to and say, open sesame. you know, and the door will, and if you really have your heart open, the door will do just what you need it to do. And then go on to the other ones. If the door, if the, if you don't see that, that Jao-Jo is, be careful with the story. If you don't see that he's being patient, with this monk saying, you know, can you imagine? The monk comes up to Jaojo and says, what is Jaojo? Some teachers, you might say, or some students, or some people might say, that's so irritating for you to ask me what is Reb. It's really irritating. I can't stand that when people come up and ask me, what is Reb?

[73:46]

I'm not saying you can't talk like that, but is that an expression of gratitude and patience? If it is, fine. Yeah, exactly. And when somebody shows people the exit, if you don't see that as generosity, then I can tell you how to see it as generosity. And it's not just by changing the story, it's by actually seeing people to the door, in some cases, is the realization of generosity. You just said, I can show you how this is generous. So I can show you, you're saying I can show you how interpretation demonstrates generosity or demonstrates intimacy. Virtually any interpretation, right?

[74:51]

Like any way you cut it, there's intimacy to be seen. Yes, that last statement I completely agree with. There's intimacy to be seen with your wisdom body, which opens when you're generous with everything that is given to you. Yes. No, no, no. Slightly different, I would say. If those who have realized this intimacy, everything that comes out is the intimacy talking. But the intimacy talking will not necessarily appear to a bystander as generous.

[75:55]

Realizing the intimacy, it leads to those things which promote other beings to realize it. So everything that comes out of Zhaozhou is generous, ethical, and so on, but not because Zhaozhou is doing it. Zhaozhou is an instrument of the intimacy. However, it might not look like generosity. For example, Zhaozhou might be saying, there's four ways to get out of Zhaozhou. You know? It doesn't sound very generous. And then, like the earlier story, you know, in the first case, didn't think that Fa Yan was being generous. He thought he was just putting him down. And he left. But then he kind of like, he got generous. And he thought, well, maybe he was being generous with me. I'll go back.

[76:58]

And that was, he was considering, and then he generously walked back, and then he generously gave himself to the teacher, and the teacher gave himself to him, and then he could see. what he could realize, what he couldn't realize. So no matter how it's cut, we have the opportunity to realize the intimacy. And the way of talking is, we say, it's not within reach of feeling or discrimination. How could it admit of consideration and thought? So we serve each other, but it's not about how to be kind to each other. Although we do think that. It's just that if I am thinking about how to be kind, I'm also doing practices of being intimate with my thought of how to be kind. And these practices realize the intimacy.

[77:58]

And then the intimacy comes forth. Jiaojiao's not figuring out how to be intimate with these people. He's realized it and As also it says in the song, it acts as a guide for beings. It's used to remove all pain. The intimacy is that of Jiaojiao. He is being guided by the intimacy and maybe the monk was being guided by intimacy and then they met and Jiaojiao said what he said and the guidance goes on like that. When people are violent, excuse me, when people are intimate, they act violently, sometimes. But when people realize violence, when people realize intimacy, do they act violent? I know of no examples of that.

[78:59]

I don't know of any examples of where people are harmful or violent when they realize the intimate communication. I don't know of any examples like that, but maybe there are. But was the Buddha ever violent? Was Suzuki Roshi ever violent? And guess what Suzuki Roshi would say? I think I was. He wasn't always the Suzuki Roshi we knew. We knew him when he was 55 We knew him for 12 years in America. He had been, in the past, he had made mistakes where he was out of touch with realization. And he says so. I'm not accusing him. He says so. He was too strict or whatever.

[80:02]

Like he was too strict with his family. He would say it. He was too strict with his own family and terrible things happened. And as a result, I think he entered more deeply into the realization of intimacy. And when he came to America, somebody might say, well, I don't think he really got that down because he was too nice. He was too nonviolent. But the proposal I'm making to you is that realization of intimacy is realization of that nonviolence, even in a situation where there seems to be violence. Some people can find a way to be nonviolent when there's violence around. But they find that way because they're guided by this intimate transmission. That's the proposal. Yes?

[81:06]

So if you read these cases to learn to be generous with them and be intimate with them, but say you can be intimate and generous with any story. Yes. You are intimate. You are intimate with all stories. Well, again, you come back to, does it matter? Okay? That's come up three times now. Okay? And I'm not going to say it doesn't matter. I'm not going to say that. So there's a slight difference from saying, notice the difference between saying, it doesn't matter who I'm talking to. And even though I'm talking to, I'll do the same practice. So it's not that it doesn't matter that I'm talking to you. It's rather that even though I'm talking to you, no matter what you become, I want to practice the same practice with you.

[82:17]

I don't want to let the way you talk to me in my mind distract me from the practice. Then you could say, well, so then it doesn't matter if I punch you in the face. I wouldn't say it doesn't matter if you don't punch me. I would say that if you punch me in the face, then that's what I would work with. That's what I want to work with. I don't want you to hit me, but if you do, I want to work with that. And I think I should. I think that's what I came to Zen to learn, is to do the same practice with everything. Well, there's all these other stories which we didn't talk about. So many, I think, I don't know how many times he was asked, what is Xiao Zhou? But I think more than once. And he probably, I think he probably didn't give the same answer.

[83:21]

Usually it's not. But some people do the same answer. So one teacher, if you say to him, what's duty? What's Buddha? What's Zazen? What's K'in Hin? What's truth? Some teachers were famous for doing... What's Echolalia? What's Echolalia? Yeah. But his style was not this. His style was lightning off his lips. And then the lightning did all these amazing comments that were quite short and changed the history of the world in a beneficial way maybe. Well, amazing. We are, in my opinion, we are amazing.

[84:26]

Amazing.

[84:31]

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