I brought up this expression, a special transmission outside the Scripture on Sunday, and...any questions about that or...do you understand what that is? Yes? What is it? It's the Buddha Dharma. It's the teaching of the Buddha. And when the Buddha was first teaching, there was no scripture. The first scripture is a transcript of what he was saying to the people.

[01:10]

And that became a scripture. So, of course, at that time it was a special translation. outside scriptures, because there wasn't any scriptures. However, he was talking at that time, and sometimes it also is not depending on words. So even while he was talking to people, the transmission was not what he was saying. And his physical presence was there too, but the transmission was not necessarily presence. But there was a transmission between him and those five people. And one of them woke up at the end of that first talk, or at least partially woke up.

[02:16]

So there was a transmission between the two of them. And he was talking, but also he was in between his words, he was quiet. The transmission was going on not just when he was talking, but also it was going on while he was talking, but it was in the words. But, you know, when he was talking, of course, he would look at people and they would have this look on their face or they would say something like, give us a talk, and then he would respond, maybe, and then he would see the look on their face, and that would lead him to say something else, and so on. So this transmission wasn't really in the words, but the words were going on and off during the transmission. Yes, Grace?

[03:27]

I was just going to say, it seems to me it's about embodiment. No, it's sort of the embodiment of the Buddha Dharma. What's the embodiment of the Buddha Dharma? Transmission outside the scriptures. The transmission is the embodiment. Mm-hmm. Yes. I thought you just said about his bodily presence either. So if it isn't, is it dependent upon bodily presence? For people who are in bodies, for what are called sentient beings, living beings who are not realized Buddhas yet. They're in bodily existence and so they, in this particular story, in the stories we have about Buddha, he, the Buddha, Dharma takes the form of a Buddha so that bodily beings can interact with a bodily being.

[04:47]

But it's not that the Buddha is the transmission. The transmission is that the other people wake up too. The transmission is what happens between the other beings. So if it's a bodily being, usually it seems to require a body. We don't have stories of sentient beings waking up with no embodied Buddhas in the neighborhood. When Maitreya is in the next evolution of events, Maitreya will wake up without another Buddha there at that time. The condition of living with Buddhas in previous lives will set that up. That's the Buddha, though.

[05:49]

So in every era, one of the theories of Buddhism is that if a Buddha has appeared in your world, even if you haven't met the Buddha, you're not a Buddha because somebody else has already told the story of the Dharma or somebody else has already started the transmission going. But when you're born in a world, if you discover the Buddha Dharma and are able to transmit it with people and there wasn't anybody before you, then that would be one person in that era could do that. Everybody else after that can receive this transmission and participate in it. So the next Buddha, after this situation deteriorates, you won't see them getting a meeting with another Buddha in that world. Yes.

[06:53]

Is this special transmission right now, is it the same as what we call Dharma transmission at this temple? Or how are you related? Well, it's basically the same. Now, you could also say that the Dharma transmission is a ritual that acts this transmission which happened while the Buddha was alive. But then you might say, well, does that mean that every single one of those people that has dharma transmission in Soto Zen actually has dharma development? And so you might do a survey on that. If you ask You know, there's this precept in the Theravada tradition, there's a precept of one of the four big precepts to go against.

[08:03]

One of them is to unjustifiably claim that you're enlightened. And in the Theravada tradition, generally speaking, almost everybody stays away from that claim. partly because they don't want to get kicked out of the Sangha. This would be particularly for monks. Lay people in the Theravada tradition don't very often claim that they're enlightened, but if they did, they wouldn't get kicked out of the monk Sangha because they're not in it. But for a monk to claim that he or she is enlightened without justification, they would be kicked out. But nobody claims anymore that they're enlightened, that I know of. There's rumors from other people that so-and-so is enlightened. But is he a Theravadan monk? No. But Theravadan monks are very careful about that.

[09:09]

And some Theravadan people say that it's not really possible to get enlightened anymore because the Buddha is so far away. The transmission between Buddha and people is too weak now for people to really get enlightened anymore. So whether it can happen in Soto Zen, I guess you could talk about it, but still... no matter how much we talk about it, in Zen we're saying that what Zen's about is a transmission of Dharma that's outside of scriptures. And the Dharma transmission ceremony, however, does make the person a successor in the lineage of Zen, in the Zen lineage of transmission. And so they are a successor to the Zen lineage. The main point is a transmission. But does this person fully understand this and realize it?

[10:13]

And, you know, again, just like in Theravada tradition, we don't necessarily say too much about that for each individual. But we do say the ceremony occurred and they are a successor. And they're a successor in a lineage where the realization of enlightenment through a special tradition is sort of the key issue. And I think that it has been from the beginning of the tradition. There is the story of the Buddha five students. That's the first scripture. And one of the students woke up during the talk. And then he kept talking to them, but they didn't write down all the talks he gave, I don't think. At least, I don't know if they did.

[11:16]

He gave quite a few talks for the next couple months. But he also was hanging out with the guys. All six of them were together pretty much, as far as I know, they were just together in the same area. probably going to beg together every morning, probably sitting in meditation, and he was interacting with them for a couple of months, and by the end of the couple of months, all five of these people were, they had the same, basically the same enlightenment as the Buddha, except that they weren't Buddhas, because they are a disciple of Buddha. And so he was interacting with them, and he didn't stress at that time that what I'm transmitting to you is not what I'm saying to you right now, including what I just said. I didn't say that, that I know of. But if you look, you will see him interacting with people and people waking up in the process of him interacting with them.

[12:20]

It's what you can tell. But you could also say that his interaction with them, of course, had all these silences in it. he was probably quiet with them most of the day. His name was actually Muni, you know, Shakyamuni, quiet one. So we don't know. He might have spent most of the day just being quiet with these people, you know, and passing them some food and maybe saying, let's go to town now to beg and walking together and then coming back. And this is probably most of what was going on during the day. The transmission was not just happening when the words were coming or between the words. And then again, as in that story I told about the monk coming to Master Ma and saying, well, he said, aside from the four propositions and the 100 negations, what is the living meaning of the Buddha Dharma?

[13:27]

In other words, he could have said, what is the Dharma outside the scriptures? What is the Dharma outside these teachings? And he wanted to know. He wanted to realize it. And Matsya said, I'm tired today. But it doesn't seem to me like Matsya was sometimes transmitting the Dharma and sometimes not. But in another sense, it does seem like Matsu was sometimes transmitting the Dharma and sometimes not, because the transmission of Dharma is not just what's beaming off of Matsu. Of course, Matsu is always beaming, right? This is the, he says, I'm tired today. Go talk to Brother Shitong. That's his beaming. He's beaming. He's beaming. He's sending out his compassion.

[14:32]

That's what he's doing, right? But transmission isn't just somebody beaming. It's the meeting. And when he beamed at the monk, It's not, we don't have a comment on what the monk did other than that he followed the instruction and went to see the other teacher. We don't have this. He said this to the monk and then there was this special transmission. We don't have that statement. But there could have been. And he still would have gone, maybe he still would have gone and talked to the next person and asked the next person. And the next person too beamed at him by saying, I have a headache. and he just asked the teacher. And then he said, I have a headache, go talk to Brother Hai, Wai Hai. And Wai Hai says, you know, when I come this far, I don't know, I don't understand.

[15:37]

That's his way of beaming. Was there transmission? It doesn't say in the document. Then he goes back and talks to Master Mao. and tells him. And Master Ma then beams again by saying, you know, Shi Tong's head is white, Wai Hai's head is black. So, in the words of that, the transmission is not in the words of that story, and yet, that story is a story about a special transmission outside. So Zen has lots of stories about a special transmission outside any story, in particular outside the story which is telling you about a transmission outside stories. And so this monk, you could say, was part of the transmission.

[16:38]

He played the story among these great masters. And the fact that he wasn't named maybe means that he did not become a successor. even though he obviously was kind of on the right page in serving a Dharma function to make this which, you know, millions of people have been studying for many centuries. So we have a role, everybody has a role, not just Zen students in this special transmission, So, did you have a question, Paula? I do. When the story said one mom's hair is dark and the other one's hair is white, are we the listener or am I the listener supposed to get something out of that? Because that means something particular to me.

[17:41]

Am I missing something? Are you supposed to get something out of it? Yes. Well, the intention of the story is that you will be... that you will be supremely and completely enlightened. That's the intention of the story. Is it in the words or is it beyond the words? The transmission is beyond the words but at the time of the transmission we're talking about transmission to a woman who speaks English So if there's English spoken, she will respond differently than if there's Chinese spoken. If there's Chinese spoken and she doesn't understand, she'll feel one way. If there's English spoken and she doesn't understand, she'll feel another way. This is the woman we're concerned with. And we want to have this woman experience a transmission. is the living meaning of the Buddha Dharma.

[18:43]

The living meaning of the Buddha Dharma is that you will realize the transmission of the Buddha Dharma. That's the intention of all these stories, is that you will realize together with everyone the Buddha way. That's the intention. But it sounds like you didn't feel like that was happening in history. I mean in your history. You seem to be missing something. You seem to be missing the living meaning of the Buddhadharma, which is your complete enlightenment together with everyone. You seem to be missing that. If you're just pretending, but... What? Yes, you do. So... There may be some symbolism here. There's plenty of symbolism. But again, that's because you're a symbolic person. you're a symbolic person, so you're into symbols, and so for you they're symbols.

[19:44]

Like there's men talking to men and stuff like that. So, again, one of the stories in the Zen tradition, which is used in the Zen tradition for the special stories, is the story of the Buddha talking to the group and the Buddha holds up a flower and turns it, and one of the people in the group smiles. So there he has all of his, and at least all of his monks are there. He doesn't mention all the bodhisattvas that were there. But anyway, among all the human monks that were there, of course, in some sense you could say, well, Mahakashipa was a bodhisattva. But anyway, Mahakashipa smiles, According to this story, Buddha says, I now entrust the Shobo Genzo, the ineffable mind of Nirvana, to Mahakashipa.

[21:08]

So he was the one at that day that was like the conditions were such that for him the special transmission would occur. That special transmission occurred between them on that occasion and didn't occur in that same way for the other people in the group. And then later they actually went and did further activities away from the group according to this narrative. They're meeting that night in a cave with some flaming chickens. Pardon? It's a good name for a band. The flaming chickens? And then this is, don't tell anybody this, this is Esoteric Secret of Soto Zen. But in our Dharma transmission ceremony we still have the flaming chickens thing.

[22:13]

We still sort of enact the flaming chicken thing in our secret Dharma transmission ceremonies. But it's like it's like it's a formal transmission from that time. Do you see he's a rubber chicken now? Well, you know, I'm a little bit of a reformer. You know, like in our funeral ceremony, I use actual flame rather than a paper flame. In Japan, they use a paper flame in a funeral ceremony. They make a circle with a paper flame. So I use an actual flame. And I think in some traditions they started... I think the reason why you use a paper flame is because they didn't want to burn the temple down. One of the main things that they do in Japan is burn temples down.

[23:18]

In Japan, they have wooden temples, right? So they're very careful about having fire. So anyway, but now, instead of using rubber chickens, we have... We use actual flaming chickens. But... But they're free-range chickens. But we also invite the Merritt Beach Fire Department to come and stand outside the room just in case. So you may have heard that engine running during those ceremonies. Yes? If one is touched by the beam of an insentient being, is that still meeting? Is that meeting? An insentient being beaming to you? To sentient beings, you say, or insentient?

[24:22]

No, insentient and sentient. The transmission is a meeting. The non-sentient beings are also transmitting the Dharma. So Buddhas are transmitting Dharmas, sentient beings are transmitting dharmas, and insentient beings are transmitting dharmas. Dharma is being transmitted. And we're talking about a special transmission of dharma that doesn't depend on the words. Among all those transmissions that are going on, we're talking about a special one, one that realizes the dharma. What can happen with any meeting, right? With sentient beings? That can happen with any meaning. However, if there's not a Buddha present, then there's no verification. It is a meeting like those other ones, but with a Buddha there, and another person also realizing what the Buddha is transmitting, which is being transmitted by everything.

[25:34]

And so if that's the case, then, you know, like I say, some Theravada people say, we're so far from Shakyamuni Buddha that the transmission of a Buddha, we're not saying that rocks are Buddhas exactly, but rocks do transmit the Buddha Dharma. We do say that in Mahayana anyway. And I think the Theravada is saying that too. I think the Buddha is saying that everything is transmitted in Buddha Dharma. The Buddha is just bringing it out. The human Buddha, the Buddha in the form of a human, is just bringing this out so that humans can have access to it. But it's not like you take the Buddha away and the Buddhadharma wasn't there before. It's just that somebody wakes up to this thing. And that's a necessary part of the process. So where's the Buddha? Because we need the Buddha. according to this special transmission, you've got to have a Buddha.

[26:43]

So this is kind of an issue for us. Yes? If transmission does not depend on scriptures, why study scriptures? Yeah, so happy together, unhappy together, using the scriptures, not using the scriptures, and won't it be fine? So in the special transmission, using the scriptures is one of the best ways to verify whether you're also okay not using the scriptures. So if you don't use the scriptures, that's fine, but can you use the scriptures in as fine a way as you don't use the scriptures? And people who never even saw the scriptures or touched the scriptures and haven't spent lots of time Some of those people, some of them feel like, hey, I don't need these scriptures.

[27:46]

Some of the people, however, who haven't met the scriptures aren't so relaxed about it. But some people who have never seen the scriptures find like, I don't need the scriptures to transmit. But if you study them, if you really, what do you call it, commit to them, And then, like you commit to the scriptures, like you commit to work in the kitchen, like you commit to help somebody across the street. Okay? If you really commit to the scriptures, to see if the special transmissions occurred by whether you're free of the scriptures which you've committed to. Can you commit to something with no greed? Like, really give yourself to something with no greed. And of course, no hate either. But most people study the scriptures and commit to them. Don't hate them, but when they aren't behaving properly. So, using the scriptures and not using the scriptures, just like practicing being together when we're unhappy and being together when we're happy, tests our relationship.

[28:57]

Are we just like Only when we're happy are we together, period. So the transmission should be able to be done while reading a scripture or while not reading a scripture. And most Zen stories are not about when the monk's reading scriptures. But some are. Matter of fact, the great Zen teacher, Hakuin, was reading the Lotus Sutra when he had his greatest enlightenment. but it was a special transmission outside the Lotus Sutra which he was reading. It wasn't in the words of the Lotus Sutra which, of course, he read many times. He happened to be reading the Lotus Sutra at the time that he realized the transmission which was not in the Lotus Sutra. And many people probably, while reading the Lotus Sutra, was when they were completely sure. Since it's the Lotus Sutra, such a great sutra, right?

[29:57]

If the Dharma's going to be stuck in any sutra, it'll probably be in the Lotus Sutra. So you're reading the Lotus Sutra and you realize, oh my God, the Dharma's not even in the Lotus Sutra. So the Lotus Sutra helps you realize that the Dharma isn't in any sutra, even the greatest sutra. You get into studying that sutra and you find a way to study that sutra with commitment. such that you're in a space so that when Buddha holds up the flower, you smile. So that's why we encourage to practice, for example, meditation, because we get ourselves in a position where we start opening to this special transmission, which is going to happen when we're in the right space, when we're in the right conditions, it will happen. Beaming is happening, everything around us is beaming the Buddha Dharma to us and it's bouncing off of us right now and bouncing back to everybody else.

[31:09]

This resonance of the Dharma is going on in an inconceivable way and it always will operate in an inconceivable way. such that it sinks in and transforms us so that we no longer believe things that aren't true. And so it can be realized and tested and, you know, tested by being put into practice And scriptures are good foils for this process. Can you please open the window? Pardon? Can you please open the window? I hope so. It's really hot up here. So anybody who is willing to open windows in their neighborhood, Mahin would be appreciative.

[32:19]

I don't know, Elaine? Okay. How do we know to do these practices? How do you know to do what? To do these practices. What practice? Like reading scriptures. How do you know to do them? Yeah, because you said to commit to them without like glee or hatred, but I feel like sometimes I commit to things I'm ignorant because I don't know do them or not to do them, and then you say, okay, you know, I just trust this. Is that faith? Is that extra? Well, if I'm ignorant and I start studying the scriptures, I guess I'm ignorant. I'm an ignorant person who studies scriptures. So that, in a sense, that's what it looks like. I myself might feel like, although I'm ignorant, I have a feeling that I am.

[33:32]

So I'm not as ignorant as I would be as if I didn't know that I was ignorant. Yes? Is it good karma that brings us to feel like we should study the scripture? Is it good karma? It is the result of good karma, yes. I would suggest you consider that. But again, that's just a story. The actual Dharma is, you know, not that because of good karma you now have the very auspicious occasion to hear teachings like you're hearing. And not only hear the teachings, but hear the teachings from people who are very good looking. And then you think, you know, well, if such good-looking people are studying the teachings, maybe I should too. And so you kind of want to study the teachings, you know, because you have good people studying the teachings.

[34:41]

And that's good karma too, that you have good-looking people who inspire you to study scriptures. And then you start studying them. And then when you start studying them, you start to realize that you're actually not only ignorant, but greedy. I want to stop reading because you feel like, hey, I'm starting to understand something. And people say, no, come and work in the kitchen lane. You say, I don't want to. I'm finally understanding these scriptures. So you notice that there's greed in your study. But then that's good. That's also good. This is also the result of past good action is that you're starting to wake up that you're a greedy person. greedy people usually don't get over being greedy until they start noticing that they're greedy. But as we start to notice we're greedy and confess that we're greedy and feel kind of uncomfortable about it and repent, we start to change. We start to become a little less greedy in a more sneaky way. And then we start noticing, oh yeah, I'm still greedy, but now it's more sneaky.

[35:50]

Then you wake up to that. And then you get more and more sneaky. And you get more and more subtle about your greed. But all this is because of studying the scriptures and waking up and finding a way to study the scriptures less greedily. In other words, the teacher says, well, you say, how can I study the scriptures less greedily? And they say, well, when they ask you to go work in the kitchen, close the door. or when they ask you to help them with something, stop trying to do what was going to increase your knowledge and just help them. Not so much because helping them is better than reading the scriptures, but just to test your greed and get free of it. So in this process we start to wake up and it's all and we're not in control of it. And yet it works this way. So the more you understand the way it works, the more you wake up. But you can't control how much of this teaching and how you're going to understand, but yet, when you do understand and when you do act certain ways, things go this way, and the more you understand that, the more they go that way.

[37:03]

So then, if you had the life such that you would study scriptures, but not just study scriptures, but realize your greed in studying the scriptures, you would probably get over your greed in studying the scriptures, and you would start studying the scriptures not to get anything out of them, And then you would realize the pure practice of the Buddha. And then you would be ready for, you'd be in the condition to receive and enact a special transmission. But you could do other things besides reading scriptures, too. Charlene was next, and then you... Special transmission outside of scriptures. Could you also say special transmission outside of signs, like signs being the micro-manifestation? Outside of signs, yes. Right? Right? Yeah. If we echo over to the text, it says the first level of insight is depending on signs. The second one on reflection, what does it say?

[38:09]

Anyway. And the third one on investigation. So the third one is the deepest. That's the transmission we're talking about, the third one, but the third one depends on the previous ones. The special transmission outside signs is to have some transmissions in signs first. So the deepest transmission is beyond signs or free of signs, but you have to get to go through transmissions in signs first. So usually the transmission outside the scriptures depends on transmissions in the scriptures first. Most of the people, just like this guy, he wanted this special transmission outside the scriptures, but obviously he already knew quite a bit about scriptures. He already had transmissions inside scriptures, and he wanted to go deeper. And he got the transmission outside the scripture, which is, I have a headache. And he's getting it from this Buddha, Matsu is a Buddha in a sense, but Matsu is not saying he's a Buddha.

[39:12]

And his disciples, like one of his great disciples, one of his great-grandson, Wang Bo, says, don't you know that in all of China there's no teachers of Zen? This is the great Zen teacher saying there's no teachers of Zen. Yes. Tell me your name again. Doug. Doug, Doug. What if what? There's this thing where people are asking questions, and you're kind of responding with some authority, saying, the true Dharma is this. And, you know, I wonder sometimes, it's like, what if the Buddha's teaching, or Christ's teaching, or whatever, you know, you're trying to practice it, but it's just been diluted so much that, you know, it's not really a thing anymore. And, like, people are just kind of parading. Yeah. scriptures and, you know, saying this is, you know, because in a way that's kind of what we do.

[40:17]

It feels like, I mean, sometimes if I chant, you know, ten directions or whatever, it's like there's some kind of, feels like there's some kind of limit on it or something that someone wrote down and now we just say it and it's not true, you know? Well, um, that this is another thing which might not be true, what I'm about to say. Namely, I'm saying that I think spiritual life really lives at the turning point of our life. So we have a life. I say, find the turning point at the moment. And now there's another moment. Find the turning point, which is the crisis of the moment. I'm saying live in the turning of the moment. That's what I point to as kind of at the center of your life.

[41:19]

And that's where you're most alive and have the greatest opportunities. But that's also where you, in order to open to that center, you have to also open to all the danger around you. You're an impermanent being. I'm an impermanent being. And if I open There's a teaching that we're surrounded by compounded phenomena, and all compounded phenomena are impermanent. That's a teaching. It might not be right. There's a danger that the teaching that things are impermanent might not be true. Right? But that's one of the easier teachings to study. Just consider, just, okay, now I'm going to study to see if things are impermanent. That's one of the easier things to check out and realize. It's not just a story. I think it's actually, for me, true. For me anyway, it's true that I'm impermanent, that I'm dying, that I break. And I'm in danger of manifestations of impermanence.

[42:24]

And Reb says, if I open to those dangers of impermanence, I will also open to other possibilities. There's also the danger of the teachings I'm hearing are wrong or misleading or not helpful. I would open to those dangers. is bringing up this danger, I think it's good. And if you can open to that, not bring it up and then run away from it, or not bring it up and try to get rid of it and go someplace where there's no things that might be not true, but just live in a world where people and traditions might be saying things that are not helpful. Open to that possibility, that danger. I think that would be good. Or even that teachings used to be appropriate aren't now. So another part of this special transmission is to make it possible for the people alive today to make the tradition relevant to the people today. Which means we have to reinterpret it in a way that had never been done before.

[43:30]

Which is, you know, what I'm trying to... what I'm devoted to is... a new relevance for the people living today in this world of danger. New opportunities for turning at the crisis point. And I often also use the example, as a kid I went to the amusement park and they had a clone at the amusement park, a wooden cone. And it was big enough for like 20 or 30 people to sit on it. And then the cone would start turning. And then the people would fly off. And I didn't particularly enjoy flying off the cone myself. I thought it would be nice to go sit on the cone and not fly off. So I just climbed up on the cone and sat on top of it.

[44:34]

And I don't know, maybe other people wanted to do that, but I was struggling to get the seat on top of the cone. And other people said, let me sit on it. So I just went and sat on there, and then everybody else got thrown off the cone, and I just sat there spinning. Mostly other people are kids, you know. But if you don't sit at the center, and the cone starts going faster, off the center. But if you're right at the center, you can actually stay upright and not be thrown off center. But you have to be right there at the center. And after I realized that, then I transmitted that to the other kids and let them sit there. Pardon? Did you use words? Did I use words? You use flaming chickens. I use a flaming hot dog. So now, back to the text.

[45:52]

And I want to say something about shamatha. Shamatha, if you write it like that, it just means up. That Chinese character for up. And here, it means stop or rest. So Shamatha, I thought of an interesting kind of a picture of Shamatha. If you have a lake, a serene lake, There's no wind. Well, the lake's smooth, right? And that's what some people think Samatha is. And in this case of this serene lake with no wind, in fact, it's like a very, you might say, placid, smooth, lovely lake.

[46:57]

And that, obviously, is in Samatha. That's a serene lake by definition. If a raindrop drops onto the lake, it makes a splash and then causes waves to go out. However, the splash doesn't disturb the serenity of the lake. The lake will act that way. It'll allow this little splash and these rings will go out. And then it will be calm again. It will be smooth again, I mean. But it's calm through the whole process. It isn't like you drop the water into the lake and the lake splashes in and the lake starts churning and, you know, shooting water all over the place. That make sense? Or if the wind blows on the lake, the lake will accommodate and it's flexible. It's not going with the wind. And when the wind stops, it just settles down again.

[48:02]

So it responds. It isn't like the lake's smooth. It's not ice. It's not the lake is smooth, and you blow on it, and it says, I'm not going to move. It goes with the wind. And if the wind stops that way, it'll go the other way. Drop of water into it. In a serene lake, when there's lots of rain falling on it, it's, well, of course, it's very lovely to see, to see serenity in action. Does that make sense? And a lot of people think that the rain falling and there's no splashing, that that's what serenity means. But no, because serenity is not, like it says in the Jilmir Samadhi, true eternity or true serenity still flows. So serenity, the word in this translation, it has this quality of prashrabdhi,

[49:04]

I think that's how you spell it. Prashra. Is that right? Prashrabdhi, which means pliancy, flexibility, ease, softness, stability, calm. It's a dharma? It's a dharma, yeah. It's one of those. It's on the list of... 54 dharmas associated with dharmas in the Theravada tradition, in the Abhidharma. So it's serene, but when things affect the mind, it changes its shape, and the serenity goes on. And then what came to my mind is I heard of an experiment which I haven't really seen, which Gregory Bateson told me about, which is if you take a glass of water, but also I think it might work on a lake, it's just harder to do it in a large container of water, and then you send sound waves at it, and it could be ultrasound too, I suppose, the water will start jiggling.

[50:33]

Does that make sense? Of course, if you blow on it, the same would happen, the water would jiggle. But if you send an ultrasound, so you can't see anything, and you maybe can't hear anything either, but the water starts jiggling. And if you send the ultrasound from the other direction, so that it balances the mechanical waves from the first ultrasound, the water will go calm. but the water is containing the resolution of those two forces, so it's not the same as the water was before there was this energy input to it. Then if you send a sound, let's say north and south, you did north and south, then if you send one from the west, the water will churn up more than it did the first time when you just did it from the east or from the north. But then if you send it from the west, it'll come down again.

[51:36]

So let's say you could have it from four directions. Four has more energy in it than two, and is more stressed than there is in two. Does that make sense? So it looks like a cup of water that's just sitting calmly. It looks like calm water. but it's got tremendous stress in it and a lot of inputs. And if you take a needle, I think he said, and you stick it in the water, the water will just practically explode out of the cup. Does that make sense? Because you disturb the equilibrium of those forces and there's tremendous tension in it, so it just goes... But it's really tense. It's not prashrabdhi. It doesn't have that flexibility and ease. It's like... it's like it's not blowing up, but it's on the verge of blowing up. So that's, you know, that's an example of the way a lot of people are, is that they're not screaming and hollering, but if you touch them, they blow up.

[52:39]

People here have told me that they feel fairly calm in the zendo, and then they walk out and somebody says, boo-boo, and they go, pshh. And then I said, well, then you realize that you weren't, that your calm wasn't really there. You thought it was. So that's part of the reason why we do interact is to test. Can you be like, can you get yourself to a place where you're serene and then people like poke you and then when they poke you it makes a dent in you and that's it. Like dent. You dented me again. Oh, that was a dent. And then you're sort of like, you know, reinflate and you're back to work. So that's part of the reason why we have work in our Zen tradition is to take your serenity out and then see if you can bump around with people a little bit without flying into a big explosion.

[53:44]

And sometimes you find you can. Sometimes you feel a calm in the Zen and you go outside and people make various comments and you go, hmm, yeah, that was like hurt, that hurt. or that had an effect. And that way of being is a gift that comes because of various causes and conditions, and it particularly comes to people who, when they meet things, when they interact with things, that they don't get involved in the story they have about the thing. So when we meet someone and we... Of course, you meet someone and you have a story. Let's say you meet someone and you have a story. This is a really fine person. It's a nice story. And it seems like... I mean, it's not unkind to think that somebody's a good person, right?

[54:49]

It's not wicked. It's just that if you have that story, even putting the energy into finishing the sentence doesn't take care of yourself in a certain way. Now, if you're already calm, it's different. But if you're not calm, it might be better to meet the person and not tell a story about them. Or if you do tell a story, try to let go of it real quickly. Like, oh, this is a nice person, this is a good person, this is an intelligent person, this is a sincere person, this is a helpful person. You have these stories. But as soon as the story starts going, or as soon as possible, just let it go. Give up discursive thought. In other words, the attention of your attention is on the person without... images for reflection.

[55:51]

You look at the person with no conceptual elaboration. This is a way to take care of your state of mind, but also it will help you eventually, maybe not at that moment, but it will help you eventually be able to be very unreactive with the people you meet. So it will promote your relationships with other people eventually as you become more In the meantime, you may not be calm, but you're taking good care to set the ground, the conditions for the realization of a tranquility in your relationships, of an ease and flexibility. And the scripture says you're setting the basis for doing the insight work. And if you don't have this basis, then you're reactive, more or less reactive, and the insight works, you're going to be more or less reactive to the insight work too.

[56:59]

You're going to be too reactive, too explosive in relationship to the insight teachings, and then you won't be able to handle them carefully and skillfully, or as carefully and as skillfully as you would be if you were serene, at ease, and flexible. on the first class I talked about serenity practice, serenity training, and on Sunday I didn't talk about serenity, I talked actually about insight work. So Doug's question about, you know, what if something isn't true, isn't there, you know, on Sunday I was talking about to find the pivot, the pivot point is not so much the point. The pivot point is hopefully in the middle of serenity. But the pivot is not really serenity work.

[58:02]

It's insight work. Whenever you're practicing serenity, of course you are sitting at the pivot point, but you don't realize it necessarily because you're basically giving up discursive Once you're serene, then use your discursive thought to find the pivot point in your serenity. And the pivot point is, of course, the place where you're... I should say, the pivot point is where you are, but realizing the pivot point, realizing the turning, means that you become... danger around you. So becoming aware of danger, opening your mind to the instruction that you're surrounded by danger, that's a discursive instruction and that's content for reflection. I'm actually suggesting that you conceptually elaborate on your situation by opening to impermanence and observing impermanence is insight work.

[59:06]

It's discursive. And then also remember, too, that not only are you opening to danger and impermanence, but you're also opening to the opportunities for insight. And if you close to impermanence, you close to insight. If you open to impermanence, you open to insight. So that's an example of the first talk was about serenity. The second talk was about insight. So this thing about finding this crisis point, I do recommend that we find this place because that's where the practice really lived. But find it, look for that spot after you're serene. And then, not only will you find it, but you'll be able to sit there at the center, calmly, and then avoid the dangers of the stories you have. ...together for the Samatha and Vipassana. Yes, Bernard? As I raise my hand, I sort of think of that sort of dangerous pivotal point there.

[60:11]

I actually want to talk about... Yeah, raising your hand is a way to feel the danger. I was actually going to talk about sitting in meditation this morning. I thought of drowsiness as a mental state. Yes. Yes. And when I started looking at it that way, it seemed that I kind of started to play with it. And I noticed when the first signs of drowsiness came up, there was some discursive thought came up around it. And the more discursive thought came around, the more drowsiness would . And then when I started seeing that, and remembering it was a mental state, I started to see a little more energy rather than, it was more like a meeting point right there.

[61:16]

So it was sort of like whenever I... to it, the discursive thought, in other words, drop the discursive thought, the drowsiness would sort of back off. And then as soon as I got into a little more discursive thought, the drowsiness would come back. So it was kind of like this little play right there. And also when I raised my hand, there was this impermanence sort of like stuff going on there too. Thank you. Anybody who I haven't called on yet? So, most of the people who are second or third time, what's happening with the rest of you? You don't want to raise your hands? Matt? I have a question about the... Is your name Matt? Yes. About serenity work.

[62:18]

Yeah. I've been trying very hard to do serenity work in the last few days. I have a particular problem that I wanted to ask about. Can I say something? Huh? Can I say something? Sure. Watch out for trying hard. Watch out for trying hard to be relaxed. Maybe that's my problem. That really points to my question. You've said a few times, give up discursive thought. What is the actual activity of giving up? Well, I usually say relax. And relaxing is a kind of activity, but it's, you know, what's relaxation? It's like, you know, noticing tension and kind of like going, well, is there some place to let go of that tension around the discursive thought? But I'm thinking... Maybe at first you are.

[63:24]

Maybe at first you notice some discursive thought and then you use a little bit of discursive thought to say, is there tension there? Or you use a little discursive thought to say, there's some discursive thought. And then you get a little discursive and you move over to say this response, which is, relax. So you could reduce it to something like, just say, relax every time you notice any discursive thought. Just say, relax. Just like I could stand behind you, and every time I saw you getting in discursive thought, I could just touch you, between you and me. Every time you hear me touch you, feel me touch you, that's a silent relax. Or I could just, you know, pat your head and say, relax, relax, relax. And then I'd just pat you. and then I could stop patting you. And then when you felt the discursive thought, you'd feel that or melt, you know, or swoon.

[64:29]

So there's a little bit of instruction there to cue you to when discursive thought arises, when conceptual elaboration arises, to cue you Let it go, let it go, when stories arise. And at the same time you're hopefully able to sit up and not go to sleep when you start to relax. I'm having that problem also. And then you might play some little games of a little bit of discursive thought to wake yourself up, or a little bit of, maybe not discursive thought, but sometimes they say just think of some brightness, or just look up a little bit. Something that stimulates you enough to get you to be relaxed but not sleepy.

[65:33]

Because if you're sleepy... In some sense, you can continue your discursive thought while you're asleep. You have to be awake, conceptually cognizing and awake to do the thing called giving up discursive thought to get to serenity. Because if you just go to sleep, your mind just keeps being discursive in your dreaming. So you're not changing the pattern. And when you come out of your sleep, ...somewhat rested, you're not necessarily more calm. Calm is that you're actually soft and at ease and it's connected to you not holding on to your stories. So when people touch you, physically you're... they're touching a soft, flexible state, but also they're touching a soft, flexible state of somebody who's not caught up so much in stories. So even if the person brings you a story like, I hate you, you have a good chance of relaxing with that story.

[66:39]

State is the result of attenuated involvement with stories. and your attenuated involvement with stories, even if you're not focusing on it at the time, it will come to your aid if you're familiar with that. So the combination of them helps you respond skillfully to the situation. Yes, yes, and yes, and yes. Can you please... I mean, you communicated now to... I don't know if it was there. And in the same way, you talked about the Zen story about the monk with the two bricks, polishing it, trying to make it like a mirror light. Uh-huh. That story? Yeah. If you can bring that into the same context, then just elaborate a bit. In this context, I would say that in this story, the monk, and by the way, the monk in this story is this master ma, this great master,

[67:47]

I would say that that monk was certainly serene. So the teacher comes and is going to interact with him. The teacher is coming and there's some danger and some opportunity here. In this case the danger will be that he'll miss the opportunity because another great teacher is now coming to meet this serene practitioner. But before I go any further, I want to say that this is a story. It's not a story about tranquility. So you know the story? So Matsu is sitting in meditation. He's certainly, I would say, the way I tell the story is he's very serene. However, his understanding is not correct. And we don't know that. Actually, when Dogen tells the story, he says that Matsu at the time of the story had already become a Dharma successor. But still, even though he was a Dharma successor, he still was going to say something which was going to sound not correct.

[68:56]

So whether he's a Dharma successor or not, he pretends, he plays the part of somebody who has to some extent a story which is open to criticism by the teacher. Namely, he says something about his understanding. And when he says something about his understanding, we have now moved into insight work. So the stories of the conversations with the students and teachers, most of the stories are stories of insight work between tranquil people. these conversations. These transmissions are conversations. They aren't telling the students something. There's a conversation. And conversations are generally either not insight or insight, but they're not tranquility work. Does that make sense? A lot of conversations we have are not insight work, are not vipassana. And the reason why they're not is because they're in a state of shamatha.

[70:01]

we're talking, but we're being to a certain extent basically reactive from our instability. There may be some wisdom there, but it's being disturbed. It's being blocked by our instability. A lot of these stories are these serene people doing insight work, having conversations. So this is a story between the teacher and the student about the nature of, this is actually a story about the nature of meditation itself. Because the teacher says, what are you doing there in meditation? Or what's your intention in sitting? Or actually, what are you trying to make by this sitting? Who's the teacher? The teacher is Wairam. Non-human is Matsu's teacher. So at this time I'm not going to get into that whole story, which is a long story, but just to say it's an insight story.

[71:12]

And it's not about developing tranquility. That story is a story which will work well for you when you're serene. But if somebody comes and talks to the teacher about that story and they're not serene, the teacher may feel like, this person's trying to get something from me. Basically, they're coming here and they're trying to get the meaning out of me. And the reason why they're doing that is because they're not calm enough yet. Somehow you need to want to understand the story without trying to get anything. And so the teacher maybe won't work with that student until the student calms down more. Or even if they don't stay by a standard, they may feel like the person can't hear them because they're too agitated and they're too worried about whether they're going to understand what the teacher is saying, so they can't hear very well. So, yeah, does that make sense?

[72:17]

Grace? You had a question earlier. Do you remember it? I did, yeah, yeah, I totally do. I guess the place where I'm curious is, I'm thinking about energy. If, you know, the pool is serene and the horses come... energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So that energy is coming from the outside in and it's only the opposition that's holding it in balance. So here we are serene. I'm trying to figure out where that energy comes from the outside goes. And I guess what I would say is that somehow by not attaching it in some way, it does get grounded in the serene mind, the truly serene mind comes through the body and gets grounded.

[73:24]

So in the example, if you had water and ultrasound was going towards it, and at first, if it's coming from one direction, the water is getting disturbed, you'd see the disturbance of the water, right? And the water would be serene. And the grounding of that energy would be the turbulence of the water. That's the grounding of it. But the water is serene. Okay? Right. I get that. But I'm talking about the serene mind. How it is... The same. When the mind, the serene mind, when the serene mind, which arises together with... a serene dualistic mind arises in a living being. And it arises depending on previous cognitions, sense organs, and sense data. When the previous cognitions, the sense organs, sense data, come together, you have the arising of a sense consciousness in a living being.

[74:28]

And it's basically a serene mind, until we say more. However, The arising of that mind is a little bit of a disturbance. It's a little bit of a wave on the serene mind. But so far, anyway, we don't have any story of why there's agitation. It's just a little wave on what was basically on the previous cognition. So where is the agitation? Where are we bringing agitation? We have to bring in mental factors. We have to bring in discursive thought. And then we have something which is turning things up. Go on.

[75:28]

I'm trying to get around to the question or, you know, here we all are calm in the zendo and then we get out to work meeting or in work situation. All of a sudden the equilibrium is destroyed. Somebody drops the pin in. And so what I'm trying to understand is over whatever eons, how it is that the pin doesn't drop in or the pin still drops in. the energy isn't going like this. So I'm sitting... It happens when the mind arises and when the opportunity for discursive thought arises and somehow the instruction to give up discursive thought is taken into the system. The thought arises and this instruction comes in and the mind is able not to get involved in the discursive thought. then the mind becomes cultured and refined such that when certain stimulations come, it responds, it continues the serenity which is its basic nature.

[76:44]

The basic nature of mind is serene. The basic nature of all phenomena is nirvana. Everything, all dharmas, are fundamentally at peace. and then seem to enact arising and falling. So states of consciousness arise even though states of consciousnesses are fundamentally at peace. When they arise, if they're highly developed states of consciousness, if they're a state of consciousness appearing to arise in a continuum of meditative cultivation, It arises, and you can poke it however you want to, and it's not reactive. And how does it get to be that particular lineage of consciousness? It gets to be that way because human minds, when they arise, they arise with the ability for discursive thought. They use discursive thought.

[77:48]

They're caught up in discursive thought. And they're tense and agitated. And they don't know how to give up discursive thought. So they're in this reactive, agitated state. And they're not as flexible as they could be. Fundamentally, they're very flexible and at peace. But as we get involved in the wonderful drama of arising and ceasing, as we enter into the illusory realm of samsara, and bringing with it the discursive in the realm of birth and death, if we train this situation, if it gets trained at giving up the discursive processes that are woven in and out of it each moment, the states of consciousness which arise are more and more flexible and at peace. So that the inputs have an effect and that's it.

[78:52]

They don't have an effect and get fought against. They don't get reacted to because our story converted and believed as the story. That doesn't happen so much because the mind has been cultivated that way. It doesn't look like that was perfectly clear to you. Well, it's not that it's not clear. It's that I'm still on the... or I'm having a story that... Yeah, I'm caught in physics. Which is, there's energy coming from hands. So now, at this point, this is an example of you're caught in your story of physics. Now, we can go on now and you continue to get your story straight. But this particular effort that you're making now is a type of effort which... If you cultivate giving up this particular mode, right now, trying to conceptually, discursively understand this in a certain way to make it align with your stories of physics, part of your life needs to be like not doing that, not following down that road, not figuring this out.

[80:13]

Putting aside problem-solving, which requires discursiveness. thought, putting aside figuring out the work assignments. And if you do that enough, the state of mind that arises from that kind of training is a state of mind which grounds these energetic inputs. It grounds them because it co-arises with them. Its arising is the grounding of them because consciousnesses arise by these conditions. the previous state of consciousness, which has been recultivated or not, the current stimulation, and this organ. This is the grounding of that energy. Energy is not lost, it creates a new state. Now, if the previous state of consciousness is in a lineage of training and tranquility, then a tranquil mind arises.

[81:15]

for a while, it will go on. If this training doesn't last forever, because it's impermanent, and there has to be re-enlistment in the tranquility process to tap into that way. So it doesn't mean that you can never figure out the physics of the situation. It's just that you will be more better able to figure out the physics of the situation. quite a bit of time, giving up trying to figure out anything, including physics. And then that kind of cultivation gives you a state of mind which can do problem solving much better in an unreactive way. And it also can do no problem solving. You can just be with people with no problem solving occurring. and responsive and so on and so forth. But you also then can move into complex analysis in any realm from this tranquility and much more energy, flexibility and interest than before. But you have to give up figuring out anything for a little while.

[82:19]

I take away a little while. You have to just give it up for the moment. And that state of mind then realizes All states of mind are actually the realization or the grounding of the conditions that give rise to it. The grounding of the conditions of the universe that are making you. The universe has made you. Let's see. I think Elena and then maybe Keith and Jane and Fu and Susan. Me too. Well, you have follow-up stuff, so you get to go first, right? Yes? Good try. Right, it didn't work, but good try. Go ahead, Elena. In the last couple of days, the line has been during sitting... uninterested in producing thoughts or words in itself.

[83:32]

I was surprised. There was no interest there. Yeah, sometimes that happens. And I thought, well, for a moment I thought, well, maybe this is the time to... So then you started to think again? Huh? You had enough of that stuff? Yes. No. No. No. That's Vipassana work. You need to do more of the tranquility work. Yeah. And the tranquility work is not that when you're sitting, no thoughts are coming up. That's not tranquility work. The tranquility work is not a situation where you're sitting there and no thoughts are coming up. That's not tranquility work.

[84:34]

Tranquility work, although there are states like that, and of course the states like that seem calm, the tranquility work starts when the thoughts arise and you don't get involved in them. And you certainly shouldn't be, until you're really tranquil, you shouldn't be bringing in any teachings, voluntarily trying to cause yourself to get involved in discursive thought. Now, if you're having trouble sticking awake, it's okay to jazz yourself up and agitate yourself and make yourself miserable a little bit. Just a little bit. Just give yourself a little jab of discursive thought to get yourself to wake up. And then when you're awake, then give up discursive thought again. But basically, give up discursive thought. Don't bring in teachings yet. And you're sitting in the zendo. Sometimes when dispersed thoughts arise, it seems to help me to touch into some place that maybe won't be so clear when I say this, but rather than having some intention to relax, to actually find a relaxation that's already there somewhere.

[85:54]

Yeah. In my body somewhere. Yeah, right. Briefly. It's a directing of my attention. That's what I question it. It's a little shift of... What you said, first of all, sounded okay. We said when discursive thought arises, it helps you touch into a place of relaxation that's already there. If I touch in, if I then touch in, relaxation is already there, which includes having a little thought that directs myself to do that. Yeah, so you have to do a little bit of... a little bit of instruction to get yourself to look for giving up discursive thought. And once you get the feeling of giving up discursive thought, you may not have to even say it. Just the mind may turn towards giving up discursive thought, turn towards giving up. But at first you may have to say, turn towards the non-conceptual image, or you may have to say non-conceptual image. non-conceptual image.

[86:57]

A little bit of a discursive to be non-discursive. Non-discursive silence. Non-discursive silence. N-D-C. I mean N-D-S. N-D-S. N-D-S. And the tranquility is already there, really. And you're just using a little bit of a kick to get yourself into that place. It might sometimes be like a feeling of warmth or something like that. Would you call that a non-dispersive image? A feeling of warmth arises? That might be where I find relaxation. Oh, that's okay, too. You might say warmth. Or you might say, you might like, there was this movie several years ago called Bull Durham, baseball.

[88:01]

And it's about this one pitcher and his coach, who was a woman, I think, suggested he wear a bra. And so he'd feel that bra while he was pitching. And then she gave him some other instruction about something about some kind of feeling in his upper eyebrow, upper eyelid. So some little creative comment can sometimes get you to, you know, for some people they maybe say, you know, pink. you know, it just cues them into, or like Madeline, you know, some stick you into a state of relaxation. The reason I'm bringing it up is because it was very different for me to shift from giving myself the instruction to relax to shift from that into finding some place that was always relaxed. That seems to make a critical difference.

[89:04]

Yeah, well, anyway, be careful. You're getting a little too discursive now. Yes? The instruction relax doesn't work well because I find there's a drifting and there's a subtle kind of seduction of discursive thought in that relax lowers my alert. So the word that helps me at first is just no. And then gradually that discipline of every time the discursive thought starts to arise, knowing that that raises the concentration level quite well, so that gradually it's more continuous. You can try that. It doesn't sound too good, this raising of the concentration level doesn't sound too good, but it's okay.

[90:07]

But that's the mu. Mu can be used. Mu means no or there isn't any. And sometimes that's used as a tranquility instruction. Mu, mu, mu, mu. English translation, no or there isn't any. That can be used to cut discursive thought too. So there's many different little signals that you can give yourself. The sutra says non-conceptual image. The sutra says content without images for reflection. The sutra says reflection of non-thought. So there's different words to sort of cue you. But basically, the basic function is give up thinking, give up discursive thought around in your head, give up stories. But how you cue yourself into that today, you can experiment with.

[91:10]

I'm just making various suggestions. You can try other things yourself, but be careful, you know, about how you do it. just new ways to get involved in discursive thought. But that may happen, that you'll just find new ways to get into discursive thought, and you won't get calm. And then it'll go on for a long time before you get calm, because it's hard to find a way to give it up, really. But if you keep looking, what kind of attention, another tension is, To turn your mind... Another intention is to shine the light back. There's another intention. Turn the light around and shine it back. And a lot of people have trouble with that one. Or meditate on the continuous mind. Meditate on the continuous mind. Or meditate on the mind which all minds are meditating on.

[92:15]

Which all minds are meditating on. Meditating on, people are meditating on different things, but actually they're all meditating on the same mind. Think of that mind. So these are different ways, different ways of translating the same original text, even. Let's see, there were some other new people. Yes. You mentioned that when these conditions come together, there is a serene mind that arises before, there's some agitation, there's some discursive thinking, but it's a dualistic serene mind. Is the mind that you put at the end, is it something that grounds the condition that made you, is that a non-dualistic mind? Serene mind? The usual states of consciousness are called vijnana.

[93:16]

Vijnana, you know, jnana is knowledge and vijnana means, you know, to split or to cut. So ordinary consciousness is a consciousness which knows objects and understands them as separate. And so that's the normal kinds of consciousnesses that are arising in unenlightened beings when the conditions for the arising of a consciousness occur. but these consciousnesses are not necessarily agitated. However, if the previous state of consciousness for the arising of this particular consciousness was a consciousness which hadn't developed tranquility, hadn't been training in giving up discursive thought, hadn't been consistently living in nondiscursive thought, then when this consciousness arises, its serenity will be unavailable.

[94:26]

But a serene state just arises. It arises from the conditions of a training before that. But we're talking about a serene, dualistic consciousness arising in a non-enlightened person. But this mind then can be trained. Basically, this mind can be trained to arrive at a state of consciousness which you take away the V.I., And you have not... without the appearance even of separation. Or knowledge where the appearance of separation is not believed. So the first stage is that it still looks kind of like people are separate from you, but you don't believe. Well, the first stage looks like people are separate, and you believe that they are. That's the normal state.

[95:30]

Next stage is you don't believe it anymore. You're convinced that they're not really. Third stage is you don't even see them that way anymore. Keith? The calm pool. The calm pool, yeah. Wonderful example, but of course the pool is not a human being. So, let's say we're fortunate enough to be witnessing the Buddha sitting. And we're also watching somebody approached the Buddha, and that's about the type of Buddha said. Yes. How does, you know, if the Buddha represents the cone, pool, water, as that sort approaches the Buddha's head, the Buddha sees that. The Buddha's not getting caught in story or... Is he just saying, well, I need to die? Is he saying, I need to duck? I mean, he doesn't get, I mean, is it that simple? In other words, he's threatened. Yeah, he might say, I need to duck, or he might say, I have a question.

[96:33]

Is it all right to pet on a first date? Or the Buddha might say, just a second, look at me. Who do you think I am? The Buddha could have a lot of responses. The Buddha sees the danger of the sword, and the Buddha sees a lot of other dangers too. And as you know, some people actually wanted to hurt Shakyamuni Buddha. So he did see people that wanted to hurt him. But he saw also lots of opportunities in those cases, and he could respond to those. So he might duck, he might say something to the person, or he might get his head cut off. That's a possibility, too. But as his head's being cut off, he's serene, and he feels compassion for this person through the whole process. And the person can tell, perhaps, even, and is sorry that he didn't notice who this person was.

[97:41]

Pardon? Would he scream and feel pain? He might. We have to, you know, test. The Buddha did. You know, the Buddha was sick towards the end of his life, and he was in pain. But, and... I don't hear any stories about him making any big sounds, but he was in pain. I tell the story that the Buddha had back problems, and sometimes he couldn't sit up to give talks, and he had senior students like Mahakashyapa give talks for him, and he gave Mahakashyapa his robe to wear for the talks, and then he reclined. while the student was giving a talk because he couldn't sit up.

[98:44]

This is like years before his final illness. So the Buddha did have physical problems, but whatever problems he had, the Dharma kept coming through. His mission continued through the various ups and downs of his physical condition. So his last teachings were, while he was sick, you know, continuity with the earlier teachings when he was in better health, so to speak. So the... comes into the world of living beings and can animate, for example, everything. That's not exactly an example. But it can animate a person or an animal. But animals teach... And when it enters into a human body, it shares the problems of a human body and shows people how the Dharma works with the problems of a human body.

[99:51]

And what attracted me to Zen was not the story of someone who had no problems, who had a body that, you know... What's interesting is how does someone who has problems, how do they deal with them? rather than some special case of having no problems. In Christian religion, I hadn't been tipped off to looking at Jesus as a person who taught when he had problems. I wasn't looking into what did Jesus do when he had problems. I was sort of turned off in some sense. in the stories where he didn't have any problems, because when he didn't have any problems, I thought those seemed, you know, not relevant. When he could perform miracles and stuff, I wasn't moved by those stories because I thought, well, what's it got to do with daily life?

[100:54]

But there's also stories of Jesus, how he handled daily life problems. And those are actually more like stories of the Buddha, how the Buddha handled daily life problems. Yes? I'd like to go back to your question to agree. And in the example that you gave when we get dented, you know, if we talked before about being calm or approaching calm and then something happens and we react. So I get hung up on therapy thinking that I need to explore why I had the reaction that I had. And what I understood you saying to Grace is that if I worked Rather than trying to figure it out, that would actually be more helpful. And when I did have therapy later, it would make more sense. It would be better later, with a serene mind.

[101:56]

Does that make sense? I think that there's some truth to that. That if people who are doing therapy... of psychotherapy, if they went to the psychotherapy session in a state of tranquility, that they probably would be able to do a different type of work than if they go when they're totally caught up in their stories. Which, you know, and that's, some people would say, well, I'm a psychotherapist and almost nobody comes to me in a state of serenity. Right. And also, and almost none of them are able to give up their stories. Right. My job is to, in some sense, help them give up their stories. But sometimes they do. Sometimes they do give up their stories and sometimes they do calm down. And then, in psychotherapy, sometimes they get them to start looking at the stories. Looking at the stories means looking for the transmission beyond the stories. Psychotherapy, if you're looking at the stories to find where the freedom beyond the stories we have of our life, it would be helpful to be calm.

[103:11]

And I think psychotherapists would be happy if they could somehow help their clients become tranquil with their stories, give them up for a while, and then looking at them then turns into the insight work. Oh, I see. All right. And the only way that tranquility is produced is through sitting and cultivating the mind? The way that tranquility is produced is by giving up discursive thought. That's the way it's produced. However, as we see people saying that they have various little discursive packages which help them give up discursive thought. So some people play the piano and in order to play the piano they need But as they use discursive thought to play the piano, they give up other kinds of discursive thought, like the stories about how mean everybody is to them. And they have the discursive thought of the mathematics of the keys.

[104:15]

So is it doing those other activities with the intention of giving up in discursive thought than previous things to reality? No, not necessarily. It's the giving it up, not the intention to give it up. Okay. The intention to give up discursive thought is usually necessary for people to give up discursive thought, but not always. Like I say, if you put somebody in a tightrope, they don't necessarily intend to give up discursive thought, but they do, and they don't fall off the tightrope. Or if they're skiing in some very dangerous spot, they don't necessarily think, okay, I'm going to give up discursive thought, but what happens is they start to be discursive like they start to think. what if I fall? And then they almost fall. And then they say, I can't afford to think of that. Thinking of falling. And they start thinking of when are they going to get through this difficult situation. They think of that and then they all fall over again. So by trial and error, without even noticing, sometimes people fortunately discover the mode of giving up discursive thought.

[105:17]

And they survive difficulty. They start to become calm. Or carpenters sharpening blades They don't say, okay, give up discursive thought, but in fact, as they do it over and over, they maybe find that place. Like I say, musicians and dancers, they don't say so. They don't necessarily have the intention, but they do. They're less successful at their discipline. And if I'm in the midst of a spin, in the midst of a story... Yes. That's the usual situation for people. Right. Then to move in a different direction. No, don't move in a different direction. Give up the story you're in the midst of. Just poop? Yes. Yes. Just poof. Now you could have a story about giving up the story.

[106:19]

But that would be another story. Actually letting go of the story, actually releasing it. Poof. And then another moment happens. New story comes. Poof. New story. Poof. Actually giving it up. Is that the leap through that you were talking to me about? When you said leap? So it's just poof. And if it's not poof, then you say, well, here's a story and I'm caught up in it. It's not giving up story here. The discursive thought's happening and I'm like totally into it. And I'm even commenting on how totally into it I am. I can do that. Yeah. I mean, I can get to that point. And then there's sometimes you may be feeling like there's a discursive thought and then sometimes you're seeing discursive thought and you're not seeing that there's a discursive thought but you see discursive thought. Or sometimes, you know, you hear other people's discursive thought and you're listening to them. And they're being very discursive. They're chatting away, telling you stories, and you're listening to them.

[107:22]

And you don't even notice it, but you're just listening to them. You're not saying anything about what they're saying. You're just listening. And you don't notice that you're not being discursive. No, they're like being very discursive, and you're listening to them, and you're... And like you're just going... You know? And you're not making any comment, you're not thinking, geez, they're stupid, geez, they're smart, when are they going to stop? You're just kind of like in awe. And if they could keep that up for a while, you would go into a state of concentration. And so some yogis could put people in a state of concentration that way, of talking to them in such a way that they're unable to get involved in discursive thought. Well, you do that for me. Yeah. And after a while they wouldn't even know what the person was saying. And they don't even notice it.

[108:29]

But you don't always have somebody to talk to you that way. So you need to be, when you hear your discursive thought, you need to be able to listen to it. when you don't comment on what they say. So you hear yourself going, and this person, and you just listen to it, and you just don't get involved. And it kind of like stops in that way, because you're not involved. But as long as it's happening, you just don't get involved. And the more you do that, the calmer you get. That's what does it. Then when you're calm, as it says here, then abiding in that calm, then you start studying the teachings. And then you're going to look more effective. Studying the teachings before that calm, it's still necessary sometimes to study the teachings, and all of you have been studying the teachings somewhat for quite a while. But most of the time when you're studying the teaching, it was discursive thought on a wholesome topic, but it wasn't vipassana because you weren't trying to

[109:39]

And even if you're studying meditation, on insight meditation, and you're learning the teachings about insight meditation, it's not vipassana until you're studying these teachings on meditation in the context of this special state. And in that special state of tranquility you have special insight, which is what vipassana means. It's special in the sense that it arises with tranquility. But I don't care how you get tranquil. You can use discursive thought to give up discursive thought. You can totally get into discursive thought by giving up discursive thought. The important point is you give it up and however is fine. But the point is it's not just to give it up for one moment. So if you find some fancy way to give up discursive thought, like standing on top of a flagpole. That's fine, except that it's hard to keep it up, to stay on a tightrope for hours and hours.

[110:49]

So it's good to find something simple, and it's something you can do sitting or walking in a safe environment. So you can do it, because it takes quite a while to actually transcend the state of consciousness so that you're actually in this state. So I thought we would just keep looking. These first two pages of this chapter 8 are kind of about this type of meditation, so I just thought for the time being we'll just keep going over these first two pages. And in class, basically what we're doing is we're trying to find and realize the special transmission outside this text, and we're just using this text as a situation in which to get something which is not about this text. But the text is partly about how to get ready for the special transmission, which is free of this text and all texts.

[111:51]

And in that way, I thought we could proceed for the time being. Does that make sense? Oh, and the one other thing I want to know is, I don't know how many classes you want to have during this during this period of time. A lot. Some people want a lot, some people want zero. And some people want... So like yesterday I thought we... Yeah, yesterday we sat and that would seem to be good. So I think maybe if you remind me, I'll check with you, I'll get your feedback. And then after I get your feedback and you dent me, then I... I will have some response to that. So my question is, how many people tomorrow would like to have sitting? And how many people want class?

[113:06]

kind of not that different. Slightly more for the class look like. So, I will, I guess I'll let you know later about this. Thank you. Where is that place where the true man got his way?

[113:45]

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