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Interviews with Dezhung Rinpoche, Serial 00010
The talk extensively discusses the practice of Mahamudra meditation, emphasizing non-duality and the intrinsic emptiness of thoughts. Key points include the importance of understanding visualization without attachment, recognizing subjective and objective grasping, and transforming negative emotions into wisdom. The essence of meditation is revealed through a direct experience of mind's true nature, where the absence of a perceiver and perceived leads to realization.
Referenced Works:
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"Mahamudra: The Quintessence of Mind and Meditation" - Led by instructions on observing the mind and thoughts without attachment, this work is pivotal as it discusses leaving the mind in its natural state.
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"Hṛdaya Sūtra" (Heart Sutra) - This text is significant within the talk for its delineation of emptiness, central to understanding the lack of intrinsic nature in thoughts.
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"The Tibetan Book of the Dead" by Padmasambhava - Referenced in relation to the transformation of negative afflictions into understanding wisdom.
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"The Bodhisattva's Way" - Discussed in the context of applying everyday mindfulness practices and attending to anger through Mahayana teachings.
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"The Jewel Ornament of Liberation" by Gampopa - Cited concerning the integration of actions and visualization practices in one's spiritual path.
AI Suggested Title: Embracing Emptiness Through Mahamudra
1) Chanting (3 minutes): Gelugpa Umdze doing part of morning Lam Rim puja
2) Interview with Dezhung Rinpoche (III), 9-6-84
3) Interview with Dezhung Rinpoche (III), 1-1-85
Satsang with Mooji [...]
[01:26]
Thank you. Satsang with Mooji Thank you for watching.
[03:01]
CHOIR SINGS CHOIR SINGS When I first came to Korea, I didn't know much about it, but I learned a lot about it. When I first came to Korea, I didn't know much about it, but I learned a lot about it. When I first came to Korea, I didn't know much about it, but I learned a lot about it.
[04:09]
When I first came to Korea, I didn't know much about it, but I learned a lot about it. [...] I am very happy to be a part of this community. I am very happy to be a part of this community. I don't know. My son is sick.
[05:26]
My son is sick. [...] When the judge says that the It is not to be concerned about having a clear visualization because there is no way being an ordinary practitioner to have clear vision or clear visualization.
[06:41]
It is because if you have clear vision, And that is accomplishment. That is culmination, another perfection of your creation practice. So just by being within this ordinary state, there's no way that our visualization is going to be perfect. This concern over the unclear visualization, the concern itself is kind of poison. When you say that there are true poisons for the Somalis, there is one thing that is the concern, the worries, that entails, which, no. worries that you have when you don't have good visualization.
[07:42]
And another poison is a kind of afflictedness, great aliveness, as, oh, I have great fear of visualization. So both are none other than the poisons of the Samadhi. If you have good visualization, You shouldn't be affected by it. If you're a bad visualization, you shouldn't be concerned or worried. You shouldn't be again affected by that visualization. So all you do is continue your practice. And if you're a good visualization, very good. Let it come and go. If you're a bad visualization, very good, too. Let it come and let it go.
[08:44]
All you do is repetitious practice and remain important, not how it comes. In its own way, it should be discovered that even though you have clear vision, it isn't going to stay anywhere. Because your mind can't protect you at all. It's only going to stay. So you shouldn't react in a good way or a bad way. So you shouldn't be concerned about it. There's no danger of attracting it. It's the time of the past. Sometimes it seems like it's... But that wasn't it. When I'm doing the Mahabhuta Meditation and trying to see the nature of mind, I seem to have reached a point where I can't do it.
[09:50]
I'm kind of stuck right now. I get the point. Well, the thing is, when I look at my mind, I see that consciousness is arising, and there's a contact between the sense oil doing in the ear, and then the sound outside, and the consciousness arises. And I see that sometimes. But then I know also, there's some confusion, not quite. I also know that there seem to be Sometimes it sounds like the sounds are coming from the outside, they're stirring. Other times, I see my mind, if the mind is quiet, my mind chases, it grasps, looking for new sounds, new senses. It seems like there's consciousness, independent of the contact between sense-ordering and the outside object. So there are really two kinds of consciousness, I think. There's consciousness one, independent, who loves the sense-ordering, and one, which is the one who doesn't.
[11:02]
And then there's also, what is this grasp that you read? It was the clarity When I was a child, I used to go to school with my friends. [...] uh... let me see if i would be able to do it now if you want to see if it's ever like that you don't want what i'm seeing some of the panic number six the arms i think she needs to be a team for you know that in the past you would be able to uh... i mean in the number six you're [...] I don't know.
[12:08]
I don't know. [...] When I was young, I used to go to school with my friends. [...]
[13:10]
I used to go to school with my friends. [...] Then my shepherd came to me and said, Ben, listen. He was a good man. [...] I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Actually, let me just say is that the
[14:39]
It's pretty easy to have consciousness of anything else you have unless you understand the subject, object, and all of this. The subject is the consciousness of self. So, in other words, with that kind of consciousness, with coming in close, coming in touch with subject or the object, holding the Parsisnip. Fear arises eight times. So, let me just say this, actually, when you say, when you have your eye sees the object, and you have consciousness already, and just by looking at the object, your eye informs consciousness, and your consciousness is conscious of that object. But in that moment, in that moment, there is no object at all, because object doesn't exist, as object just goes on.
[15:54]
So all the rest of the things are what we call, even though it is seemingly, it's there, it is none other than mental projection itself. So there is subjective graspings, you know, we have two graspings, subjective graspings and objective graspings. The primary consciousness you have by which you're looking at the subject is the sort of objective, objective grasp. The consciousness takes birth through the organ and from the object. It's called the objective grasp. So actually, for their natural state. But one takes birth, one is Whatever the perception you're searching you have in your mind is subjective.
[16:58]
Whatever the perception you perceive from the external object is called objective grasping, see? So, the border of consciousness is self, except one takes spirit into the self, another point of object is the unique self, the spirit. That's, you know, that's what it is. So, there's three different souls in each. So when you do the meditation of Mahamudra, when you say, when you say, say, there's no way to stop your mind, to stop your perception of the thing you are. You can't stop it. There's no way. But at the same time, your main practice is to leave your mind as mind.
[18:02]
You shouldn't strive to stop it as, you know, oh, I'm going to stop it. Deception, perception, thoughts that distract, thoughts that serve. You shouldn't do that. You also shouldn't let yourself be driven away by the word thought. As long as you are driven away by your past, then your past should be one of those three mental departments. Because it's either driven by the force of ego or by passion or by, you know, aversion or by ignorance. And then what happens is you just create a new karma. So meditation in Mahamudra is none other than living the mind, the mind by the mind itself. Just start living it, not trying to make it new, not trying to cut it short or anything.
[19:06]
Just live the mind as the mind itself. Then you're going to succeed in your meditation. But both ways of trying to stop the mind, trying to stop your heart from distraction, or the trying to, or following after the thought, both are unskilled way of doing meditation mudra. So since all you have to do is follow the instruction, calming the mind or living the mind itself, placing your mind upon the mind itself, then you become a state that there is nothing you call, that nothing you can conceive of. the true nature of Mahamudra, or the true nature of Yeru Mahamudra comes with him, not by any articulation, not by any man-proposal, or negligence in instruction.
[20:15]
You can't develop or conceive of your true nature. So that's the destiny of Mahamudra. You led me just to another question that I have, which is, when you get to that state where your mind is watching the mind, it always seems like my watcher is separate, almost like a self, a distinct, you know, it seems very solid. You don't look at the mind, it always seems like there's The mind was such separate from the mind looking at the mind. And I'd like to answer a question more about how can I penetrate by and see that it's all mind rather than a watcher separate from the mind. I'm not going to do that.
[22:15]
I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. He gave me five years. I said, okay, okay. I said, [...] okay. So, when I was young, I used to go to school. I used to go to school.
[23:17]
I used to go to school. I used to go to school. I used to go to school. When I was a child, I used to go to school. [...] When I was young, I used to go to school with my friends. I used to go to school with my friends.
[24:17]
When I was young, I used to go to school with my friends. He was a great man. [...] When I was a child, I used to go to school. When I was [...] a child, I used to go to school.
[25:19]
Well, let's just say it's the Actually, as you say, it's true that there is no thing that you might really see it. So that is what actually should be the outcome of your practice. But it seems your practice cannot be more than what you're really doing. You're really trying to see your mind by your mind. And I will ask it as if it's two kinds of mind.
[26:25]
One is your world and one is something else. It's the object with your kind of feet. This is why because this is how we are. But when we say that there is no mind to be looked upon, There's no looker or onlooker in your object. This can only happen through the experience. Now, that means that is the outcome of your practice. When you try to meditate and you meditate in your experiences, there's nothing to be found out. There's nothing to be found out. that you can call that this is mind and personal nature. But the boundary comes, the state comes that you don't find anything.
[27:28]
In other words, seeing the nature of your mind is actually not done with the mind. you come to such a degree of your experience that you find out that there is no mind at all. That is the actual seeing the nature. So if you see something all through your meditation, that means you don't see it. When you come to such an experience as you don't find the mind, then you really find the nature. So not seeing the mind is seeing the mind. And that is not just when you say you're not seeing the mind. The actual mind is actually through the application of meditation, the application of the practice of Korda Yama. not the practitioners themselves.
[28:31]
And all throughout the centuries, very insightful teachers have stressed the same teaching, same trauma, same practice. And when you try to look at mind, you don't find mind. And you come to a certain abrupt stop, but you don't find mind. You're sort of, as if you're totally stunned. you can't really experience anything at all, kind of what you call art. There is kind of thing, but it is not, not, it's not, not, but still there is kind of experience, kind of, kind of true feelings, a kind of true feeling, which is we call clear feeling within one's own person. And that is actually supposed to be the, uh, Rigpa, the clear aspect of your whatever, your mind.
[29:34]
And then, that clear aspect also has nothing to show. If you try to see that clear aspect, you can also find it anywhere, through any logic, through any intellectual analysis. There's no way that you can find it by any other way to find out what actually the clear aspect is. So you find out it's not only going to empty itself, that pure aspect itself is by nature is empty. It's voidness, any kind of definition, any kind of perception, you don't really find it, but only you just experience it. That is emptiness. And then on duality, joining of these anti and clear aspects together. Now, as you can see, this is clear, this is anti, or this is clear aspect one, and this is anti aspect one.
[30:41]
If you really go through to both sides, you don't really see which part is angry, which part is clear. It's just one taste. So these, you know, And that's how you see it. Then who's going to experience it? So just experiencing of the empty aspect is actually supposed to be the clear aspect. The ultimate nation of both is the non-duality. So we're saving clear aspect and not the cognitive side alone. It's not just the thoughts. No, it's not just thoughts. Just one aspect. And that clear aspect, you know what she's saying, is actually, is the base of everything.
[31:57]
From the very beginning, I already understood what she means, to that of the Buddhahood. The thin line that continues is the clear aspect. It was Kunshi who allowed it. So it's the clear aspect. Kunshi is the base of the clear aspect. You know, the idea of the clear aspect. very strongly lead us to a state of sensuality, to the state of pure growth. Thank you, Sir Richard. I think what before... We, who let me do it, now what you're going to do, you're going to do it. You're going to do it. You're going to do it. you [...] Rinpoche is going to give you the present of this makala.
[33:35]
It's only a gift for you. This makala is actually very special to this. One thing is because as you see I've been a practitioner for a long time. Makala is none other than your Buddha. Makala is none other than all Buddhas. It's none other than your own true lady. So it is the termination of everything. Not only that, Rinpoche also made a very special preparation for this stage. And it contains all kinds of relics of the Buddha and what the great teacher is. All kinds of relics that you can find in Tibet. Great teachers. And Rinpoche and His Holiness, Dr. Rinpoche is very blessed.
[34:37]
for one day just to be blessed. This is very special. So it is going to be made this gift as out of your shaman or out of meditation. So it is almost perfect. I'm not very much expected at the moment. I probably won't get my shrine today. Let me check that in Chisholm. Right, I'll go with. I'd like to go with Chisholm. Yeah, that would be nice. Yes, that'd be sick. We just need to... So, actually, he practised British English and all Japan's foreign languages, so, actually, whatever he practised, none of them he practised so far, so it's not so good.
[35:47]
So I've been traveling so much, I've been out of town all last month. Mm-hmm. So this is my first chance, just the last two days, to come back and see Rinpoche again. Uh-huh. Another business trip. Mm-hmm. So Rinpoche has just a couple of minutes. There's just one or two questions I want to ask him about my practice. Mm-hmm. When I was a child, I used to go to school with my parents. [...] I went to school with my parents. Yeah, sure. There's one thing that happens in my practice. It happened a lot when I did my wrong retreat. But whenever I concentrate the regional part of the Duryodhana Drona, I always get disturbances that my heart will skip beats.
[37:13]
I see. There seems to be some bodily disturbance comes with it. Not even when I concentrate hard, even just a little bit. There seems to be some disturbance that comes from that. That's all. That's all. Rinpoche's advice about this, when you have like that, that time, it is not so necessary to do some visualizations within your body or the external or inner parts.
[38:41]
Because that is some kind of the witness the condition of the body and so on. So it is necessary to take a rest to doing the meditation, concentrate on it. Instead of doing some concentrations of individualizations about this, then what you have to do is develop some enlightened heart and then to do some guru devotions, prayer to guru, then recite some mantra If you do that, then it's out. Otherwise, if you're trying to force that you're, you know, the meditations, you're having some trouble, it's quite difficult. So then it will come more and more, so it is not so suitable to do some concentration practice. I hope we have all that. Paul, I have another question about
[39:48]
The last few months, my night has been... very unhappy. I've had many thoughts of anger and unhappiness and aggression. It seems somehow all that is coming out much more lately. And so I ask Rinpoche, how is it that anger, aggression, feelings like that can be changed into wisdom? That's the right way for me these days to deal with it. When I was a child, I used to go to school with my friends. [...] I'm telling the people to get up.
[41:28]
No. Hey! I was like, you know what I'm saying? You [...] know what I'm saying? I don't know. I don't know.
[42:36]
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. That's one. That's one. Mooji advised, part of his General, both the Mahayana and Vajrayana's general practice about attitude of the ungrateful thought, what you have to do is, as the other days in which I told the enlightenment teachings today, will you arise any type of the ungrateful thought of it.
[43:51]
At that time, you should think, it is not only myself that which possess some kind of this anger thought. There are countless other human beings, living beings, sentient beings, exist with tremendously anger thoughts. All those anger thoughts actually is the actual cause of the take rebirth in hell beings, hellish male living beings. Whatever they exist, the anger thought non-virtuous with the anger thoughts. Well, wrapping it towards to me. think that one, and then with this, then trying to also visualize those are actually doesn't exist in the form, it's kind of a shift, whether that is just in easy to visualize, seeing form of the black type of the, you know, the clouds.
[45:09]
It's entering many of our stars, those, but think that way, and then that. are in hell and then you should think my own merit my own the virtues whatever exists without the anger whatever the virtues are accumulated previous present and future and all by these may all living beings because of the happiness and uh hunger-less, you know, happiness state. Think that way, and then that one goes to, in the form of the white light, and to receive all living beings equally, you know, into this state of happiness without any kind of thought. We could do like that, then that is the excellent
[46:13]
Method, general, the Mahayanas, the way of practice, that is tremendous merit in that way. That also say exchange enlightenment, the thought. That is the Mahayanas, our Buddhism. And then Vajrayana, because you receive the London teaching, then there are the many other methods, especially the essence of the bodhianas practice. When you anger that heart, you shouldn't follow thought, you know, thought of the anger itself. If you follow that thought, then your mind would distract. you will think about what is the cause and result in a wide concept like us. We investigate more and more, and the concept more and more, you know, the angry part.
[47:15]
What you have to do is to measure the part that doesn't exist in the team's color and shape, form, doesn't exist in the team's. Even though there doesn't exist anything, there are some kind of perceptions. So that's just you keep with the mind. Naturally, don't bring any past thought or future thought. There's the best gift of natural thought. Doesn't exist anything. If there existed, then it should be color or shape or form. And then it's also the cause. If we investigate, then of course there are a lot of thought comes, but if you just look that minute when your eyes, you know, recognize the measure of thought, that is mirror-like wisdoms.
[48:19]
There is not such a mirror-like wisdom yet, you know, external. which you can recognize the measure of thought or the angling. That is the middle lack of wisdom. So that way to practice, and that is the brotherliness of practice. They are the two ways of practice. I find that. When you're trying to understand that clear state of the mind, that quadrant state of the mind, now that's where the thoughts arise, is that right? Right. Now, when she talks about the clear part of the mind, like clarity, Does he mean just the thoughts themselves, or can you say a little bit more? Sometimes he says the clear part of the mind is Sangha. Sometimes he says it's... Can you say a little more about what is that clear part of the mind?
[49:22]
That's very hard to grasp. When you send the Sangha, the Bhagavad Gita, you need to send the Sangha. You need to send the Sangha. You need to send the Sangha. You need to send the Sangha. He was told. I thought I was going to die. [...] Last one?
[50:53]
Rinpoche says about this, you know, the clear part of your mind is sundown. Rinpoche explained only the reckless times. It's not necessary to bring that thought to any time, all the time. Sometimes they explain some other way, all the other ones. But when you do the external refuge and inner refuge, they explain that way. This is also true. of Sarvajinda Dumbatham Jigme Lama, Swamiji's minister, clear aspect is Sanda, emptiness aspect is Dharma, window aspect is Buddha, that they explained during the refuge. So, but that is not necessarily to apply this, when you arrive, the arise language, that one, it is not necessary to bring that. There are individual thought, there are individual attitude, individual way of the transformations.
[52:27]
So we received the learned teaching. Since we received the learned teaching, the actual, our meaning is that the result is to get the five different type of wisdoms. That five different type of wisdom introduced by one's root moral. Then after that, during past times, oneself perhaps contemplated on it and then to do the meditation, through the meditation, to arise such kind of experience and realization as that we call the path of the soul. But at the beginning, when we have this time, passion, anger, ignorance, materialism, or quite those themes, These things are actually not the real truth that, you know, the bad things pop.
[53:29]
No, it is just actual. Due to our deluded, our ignorance, we are unable to recognize that. Otherwise, those are none other than wisdoms. Because times, these are the actual wisdoms. And then, part-times, they are trying to transform intuitives into wisdom that they can put. And result on that, they just exhibit, which they could control, transform. That is right wisdom. For example, the dhammadattu, the wisdom of dhammadattu, the realm of reality, that is the course of that is to know it, ignore it, transformation is that certain wisdom, or the realm of reality.
[54:30]
Then the anger thought is transformed into the zenith of middle-life wisdoms. Then, you know, desire thoughts is the, you know, cause of our discrimination, response, treaty of sin, discrimination, the wisdom of discrimination. And then jealous, which we have, that is the cause of the... I don't know what to talk about, you know. The wisdom of the accomplices. Then the pride and staying in ease.
[55:34]
These two are the wisdom of equanimity. So basic terms, they are actually the wisdom, but we are unable to recognize, unable to, even though we could recognize, but it's hard to bring it apart. That's why it came to diluted and living beings feel suffering. If they could recognize that one, there is no such thing as suffering. So those are actually, when you arise, that's, for example, the anger thought itself is the one kind of the expressions we call tza. So it's an expression of the wisdom itself. It's not the actual, the natural thought. It is some, how do you say it? Like the sun, the sun's light, the light by the sun's light is, you know, the light itself is not the sun.
[56:58]
Light, we can exist, you know, by the light, it does some actions, something like that. Expression of the mind does the transformations, you know, the activities and so on. When you recognize the nature of that combination, then actually the anger itself is clearly detached. But then if you check the nature of that one, you can't find anything but anger itself. What you can find, you can find the anger itself and the anger aspect. These two are actually non-dual. So that non-dual state, then, you can find your natural mind, without any other thought. That is the basic point. So by this way... Could we just clarify one thing?
[58:05]
He just gave some instructions. I'll turn it on, and we'll pause you on that. Do you? Should this be done just during the actual formal time of meditation or whenever thoughts arise? Let me just say, actually, this is the practice of session time. But then the sessions practice, you can bring it to also off-sessions practice. It means between sessions, just usually time. Whenever it comes, realize the thought or any other You cannot part with it any time, so it is not necessary to do anything.
[59:11]
Whenever you realize, there are times. Well, just one last question I'd like to ask you. You know, it seems it's going to be a long time before we see one or two again. Yeah. Please, any special advice on how I should pursue the path with this commitment? Now listen.
[60:43]
advice about this or actually we are all the Buddhists. We already enter, exist, and access into the path, the spiritual path, the Buddhists. Then our, you know, the principle, practice is to check and recognize the truth. That is very important. Because, you know, the All the Buddhist variables we give to teaching, these are for the purpose of to subjugate all that is true, ten, once a night.
[62:20]
In order to ten of subjugate once a night, we have to rely on triplet. We have to rely on triplet and oneself cannot, you know, solve the problem. of despair about negative stress. So with this then we have to develop the triple-diamond. Once the Buddha is as a teacher, actual teacher, teach us right and wrong path, and then guru Buddha is the leader and also the teacher, which directs us as a path. Dharma is actually the path that we have to go through according to Dharma's explanation in the Vajrayana texts to authentic teachers.
[63:23]
The Sanghas are assistants of how-to. in order to get life, to overcome all the obstacles, new obstacles, you know, the existence of the world. Because of that, it is necessary to take refuge in Buddha and Theravada. By this way, if we do, then the old Lord Buddha's teachings are included within in this life. Just reciting by mouth the several mantras and verses, that is actually good, but it doesn't exist. I'm not epic. But we have the thinking on all hearts. to living from all heart, in other words, inner mind. Then, we take refuge in Tripa. It's valuable to be successful, temporary this life, and hold it, longest life, progress, better life, and within process, prosperity.
[64:32]
Not only this life, our minigame is not the end. We team in this life, some better life. But next, until to get the direction to have a better life, to gain some benefit to others. Of course, Buddhists is the principal view is free from the suffering of the samsara. That's general view in end. And then for us, especially we are Mayans, practitioners, It's good to get the resurrection, but it's nuts. Only the one soul. All living beings, they also need to, you know, deliver themselves. So for purpose of that, one soul have to do practice, study and practice and contemplate and give and give. Without cause and conditions, there is no way to get received, achieve a good life.
[65:39]
So we have to accumulate some merits. That merit is actually . Then that one, through this, then we have to think, sake of all living beings, I must keep purple. I'm not thinking I need one soul. And all living beings at an equal stage. equal and they also equal happiness. The purpose of that oneself have to attend that Buddha, think that way and treat it so. You know why? Thought. If you do that way, then that is the essence practice of both Maya and Vajrayana. I still try to give it the principle of practice, taking refuge with him all the time. It develops in my thought. That is the essence of practice.
[66:44]
Thank you so much for these two tips.
[66:45]
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