And there's various kinds of generated minds that are not given. We could say actualizing minds. And I would say the mind of Sambhogakaya and the Samantabhadra minds are all generated minds. So that's enough on that. And then the question is how do you generate minds starting from where? Some minds are generated from the experience of bliss and the experience of imperturbability. And some minds are generated on the basis of other minds. But then we're really getting into the craft of practice.

[01:01]

The handvert of practice. Ha, ha, ha, ha. I can read now. Geistwerk. Geistwerk. Geistwerk. Sounds good, eh? Augenblick and geistwerk. I'm going to develop a very primordial or at least primitive German. I'm going to ask for a melange and an augenblick. I'm planning to have a lot of fun, you know.

[02:11]

Anything else? I have a funny or strange idea and I'm not totally satisfied with that idea because it's so logical. The experience which experiences itself. The experience which experiences itself, yeah. We human beings are something like vehicles. What I like about the idea is that we can give us over to this being a vehicle.

[03:34]

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a relief. This idea is a relief for me. Dogen had the same idea. And he also was rather logical. So if I go on with this, I'll come to the point where Dogen says this and then you can see if it fits with your feeling. Okay, you were going to say something? The question I'm dealing with now is when I'm entering in relationship to my four-year-old daughter. I attribute to her that she doesn't see the world so much in words or thinking than in description or... Images.

[05:01]

Images. Experiences. Experiences, yes. But to contact others she needs words to define her experience. How can I support her to stay in her experience? and not only deal with words but also find the words necessary for communication. I mean, the main way, almost the only way, Because it can't be expressed in words.

[06:12]

It can be only expressed in experience. So almost the only way is for this to be your experience. So she's a good teacher for you. You really see how you have to practice for her. The more you have a continuity in awareness, as well as in consciousness, then you support her having a continuity in awareness. She will feel it. She'll know it from your body. Not that you need the Trojan horse of science. But let me just point out, as I have occasionally, I said, when you sit meditation, very soon, within 10 to 20 minutes, your right and left hemispheres begin to have very similar brainwave patterns.

[07:41]

And with a group of people who sit together all the brain wave patterns begin to be the same. I think this has only been measured up to 18 people. So that's just about perfect for this group. So if that's the case, it has to be the case between mother and daughter. So you can be pretty sure that while your thoughts may be different than your daughter, the basic liquid of the state of mind in which the thoughts are occurring is shared by your daughter. And that's part of what practices in Dogen means, is that we, at the stage of the present moment,

[08:42]

That our connectedness is primarily in the liquidness of our mind rather than in the forms of our mind. As if different states of mind were different kinds of liquid. And if I change the liquid, what kind of liquid my mind is, it will affect you. And together we're already doing that. Something else? Yes. Christine spoke about the edge. You spoke at this point where the mind starts to boggle. Is this also the border between Buddha and sentient being within us?

[10:21]

Sounds good. Another question? I'm glad I answered that so easily. Next. I personally feel that at this border there is a lot of fear. How do you practice with that fear? Hello. That's my next short answer. Hello, and if you're a little braver, welcome. Frank Sinatra was afraid every time he went on stage. But when he got on there in the present Dharma moment, he did okay.

[11:25]

If Frank Sinatra can be afraid, so can you. It's kind of something behind it. Because the fear is very often hidden and only shows itself in physical tensions. And they stay there. It's already part of it. It's part of it. It doesn't look. Yeah, it's something hideous? Devious. Devious. Well, it's not so open. This fear is sometimes hidden. Yeah. Devious. Hidden, yeah. And it just manifests in tensions in your body or... Yes, that's true. Yeah, that's true.

[12:26]

So then you... bring some attention to those tensions. I mean, look, life would get boring. There must be something to do. But now you have some tensions to work with. And I'm joking, but I'm serious. Because one of the qualities of realization is a pliant body. So you work with where you find stiffnesses and tightnesses. First of all, you bring in a simple intention to that area. Perhaps a good word would be to ask it to be at rest. Perhaps relax is too aggressive a word.

[13:42]

As Charlotte Silver said, whoever goes into a florist and asks for some relaxed flowers. So, Something else before I go on with the Dogen classical? So, Genjo Koan. Arising, completing. Erscheinen und Vervollständigen. The koan of arising and completing. Das koan des Erscheinens und Vervollständigen. Koan means something you can turn your life on. Koan bedeutet etwas an dem du dein Leben herumwenden kannst.

[14:45]

This weekend seminar arising and how will you complete it? And can you find that fundamental point on which you can turn yourself on this weekend? Turn yourself on the koan of where you are at this moment. The Dharma stage of this completing moment. Okay, that's the title, Genjo Koan. And then, as all things are Buddha Dharma, again, not all things are, not all things, But all things are these relationships which we can enter as Buddha Dharma. And when we choose to enter through the Buddha Dharma, instead of through, say, Christianity, or systems theory, or

[15:51]

any of the contemporary views of how things exist. We enter into the relationships of myriad things as they arise. Through the Buddha Dharma. This is what he means by as all things are Buddha Dharma. And when we enter through Buddha Dharma, then there is delusion and realization. And there is practice and birth and death. And there are sentient beings and Buddhas. Now, Dogen is very logical here. It's a kind of Dharma logic.

[17:13]

It means, if you want to go on to the next step, you should accept this step. If you want to go to the next step, you accept this step. Now it's easy to accept that there are sentient beings. It's not so easy to accept there's Buddhas. Now there will be a Buddha field. We create a Buddha field. Now this is the simple craft of Geistwerke, practice. That in addition to recognizing there are sentient beings, we recognize there are Buddhas.

[18:17]

And the great power of the Mahayana, the power to realize Buddhahood and not just Arhatship, is to put yourself in relationship to all of sentience, to bring yourself into accord with all of sentience, and to the potential enlightenment of each being, and to the already existing enlightenment of each being. And this gives you the power to realize enlightenment for each being. In English we'd say for and through each being. Now, again, if we did nothing else this seminar but create a Buddha field, Or recognize that we can create a Buddha field.

[19:44]

We accomplished a lot. Now, you can walk around Vienna and think, well, look at that schmuck. And look at this guy. Yeah, et cetera. This is not creating a Buddha field. It's normal. But to carry with you the almost magical vision that each of you, without exception, is potentially a Buddha. I'm sorry to tell you this news. This is the good news. I sound like a television preacher. This is the good news.

[20:45]

Jesus has come. There's something similar. But really this kind of magical vision That you have to bring some energy into. As you have to see past your thinking. And to see past your pedestrian thinking. to the possibility to entertain in yourself the possibility that each person is a potential Buddha and to the extent that each person is a potential Buddha How can I put it?

[21:57]

The extent to which each person is a potential Buddha is inseparably connected with the extent to which you are a potential Buddha. Yeah. Now, if you think of this as status, like a Buddha is a guy who's, you know, rich and long-lived and etc. If you think of Buddha as some kind of exceptional being only as some exceptional being then you're thinking with your ordinary mind. So you have to kind of get out of that and just Yes, if all things are the Buddha Dharma, there are sentient beings and Buddhas.

[23:14]

And sentient beings and Buddhas are each potentials of each other and our potential. To know that and to have faith in that is to be a Buddhist. And you can use Buddhism as a kind of convenient way to develop your life. Teaching you use as a kind of therapy, say. But to be a Buddhist means to really accept this possibility, this fact of this potentiality. So Dogen says, as all things, when all things are the Buddha Dharma, there is, there are delusion and there are There is delusion and there is enlightenment.

[24:31]

And there is practice and there is the coming and going of life and death. And there are Buddhas and there are sentient beings. So let's just try that on. Now there are practices to develop that and try it on and envision it. But let's just say, let's try it on and envision it. We've got nothing better to do. So let's try on a Buddha field. Dogen says, there is the coming and going of birth and death.

[25:43]

And he says, the coming and going of birth and death is the true human body. And although the coming and going of birth and death is where ordinary beings drift about. It is also where sages, great sages are realized. Okay, that's what we've been talking about. This weekend, this coming and going of birth and death, You had your baby four years ago. Some of you are about to have babies or have had babies. And certainly all of you, some of us may have Mohammed shortly. And all of you have parents and grandparents and friends who have died.

[27:04]

And in this coming and going of birth and death is where ordinary people drift about. And it's also where great sages are realized. But what's interesting about this statement, which hasn't come up yet in this seminar, is this radical thing he says, that the coming and going of birth and death is the true human body. Not this body. The coming and going of birth and death is the true human body. So to get a feeling of that, maybe we have to define what a body is in Buddhism. Very simply, if we had a... Excuse me for saying so, but if we had a corpse here... That is not a body.

[28:16]

That's stuff. A body is what makes it alive. So body and mind are often used, Buddha mind, Buddha body, they're often used interchangeably. And we can talk about why they're used differently, but basically they're very similar. So if we look at what would bring this corpse to life, That aliveness, those relationships that give the body life, if that non-graspable quality, which is the body, where are its boundaries?

[29:35]

Well, it extends to your parents. It extends to your friends. It extends to phenomena. That which makes you alive couldn't be possible without other people. that which makes us alive is not possible without all these things and it's not possible without this particular empty space if I could take away this particular empty space nothing would exist so What makes us alive also depends on this. Or this, you know. So this is kind of the sky of sentience.

[30:39]

Or the space of sentience. So in this sense, Dogen says, the entire coming and going of birth and death is our true human body. That's what really makes us alive. And that's where our health and vitality is. The more you envision and in fact separate yourself from the true human body and your thinking and actions, the more you endanger your basic vitality and your basic health and your Buddha mind.

[31:42]

So the true human body is the coming and going of birth and death. And it's where we all drift about But if you know the Buddha Dharma, it's also where sages are realized. That dogen was no slouch. No slouch. Slouch means somebody kind of sticks a bag, takes it in. A couch potato. A couch, a slouch potato, a couch potato. That Dogen was no couch potato. That's good, I like that. Maybe I should do a book of commentary on Dogen called That Dogen Was No Couch Potato. Do you have a similar expression in German? Couch potato? No. Have you ever heard it before?

[32:43]

It makes sense, doesn't it? I think a lot of women these days think their husbands with the World Cup going on are couch potatoes. We're creating a particular dharmic language within Germany here. Yeah. Okay, so now he's got you to take on this vision. When all things are Buddha Dharma, there is realization and delusion. practice and yogic practice and birth and death Buddhas and sentient beings so that's the vision we begin to evolve and then he says I'm afraid to tell you this

[34:04]

But anyway, I'll tell you. He says, since there is no abiding self, Permanent self, abiding self. Abiding means you abide in a house, you live in a house. You stay in one place. So there's no self that stays in one place, he says. Because there's no self, no abiding self... There is no enlightenment. There is no delusion. There are no sentient beings. There are no Buddhas. There is no birth and no death.

[35:21]

So he takes everything away. Just after you've gotten this vision going, there's Buddhas and sentient beings, But there's also, this is part of this vision. Where are we at when there's no abiding self? And we have to talk more about this no abiding self when we look at the various ways we can relate to thinking. So let's just accept what Dogen said up to this point. When there's no abiding self, because there's no abiding self, there's no enlightenment, no Buddhas, no sentient beings. No ignorance, no birth and death.

[36:35]

If there's no abiding self, there's no reason to worry about whether there's Buddhas or not. Aren't Buddhas beyond the abiding self? Deutsch? Deutsch? When there's no abiding self, if you say there are Buddhas... Okay. So then what did he say? He says, the Buddha Dharma is leaping beyond the one and the many. When there is leaping beyond the one and the many, there are sentient beings

[37:43]

there's realization and there's suffering so now he gives it back to you and he says a very famous statement yet still even with leaping beyond flowers fall with our attachment And weeds spread with our aversion. Okay. Now this is the basic teaching of the Diamond Sutra of Nagarjuna. Basic Madhyamaka teaching. When he says leaping beyond the one and the many, he means outside of any categories.

[39:00]

Now here is the particular emphasis of Zen teaching. What is If I think there's one, so kind of one nature, one reality, or if I think there's many things, or if I think that somehow the many relate to the one and the one relates to the many, and the various ways we can think about things, These are the way our mind works and they're useful pedagogical categories. But how... Actually we exist doesn't fall into categories of one or many.

[40:13]

It doesn't fall into any mental category. So yes, use mental categories but fully live outside of mental categories of one or many. and see what happens. Zen doesn't say what's going to happen, it just says let's get each of us to that point. And that process of finding out for yourself or for your Buddha nature is what Zen would define as what it means to be a Buddha. Zen will only tell you a little bit about what a Buddha is, the qualities of a Buddha are.

[41:21]

It says, just get beyond the one and the many and find out for yourself. So in honor of Carlos Castaneda, let me use his well-known term, the assemblage point. And I'm not... I'm not... I'm mentioning this because I just found out yesterday he died. And I tend not to try not to use his language. Unless it comes up through my own way of... It's the only alternative and I've come up with it myself. And I use... I use... I try not to use the language of other ways of looking at things.

[42:37]

It's hard to use the word enlightenment because of European enlightenment in relationship to Buddhist enlightenment. And one of the most creative things about Castaneda was the extraordinary way he used words to poke holes in sentences. As I said recently, I see of course each word has to point toward the completion of the sentence. But each word can also point out at you out of a sentence. And each word can be a hole. And maybe you can stuff the Buddha Dharma through the hole. And each word can also be a tunnel which you can disappear into.

[44:20]

And he was very good at finding language like that. But it still implies a whole system. It's like Dogen says, When all things are the Buddha Dharma, then there is such and such and such and such. But when all things are Castaneda's teaching, then there are different things that follow from that. And if you don't think that's the case, then you believe in God. You believe in some one reality that's already present.

[45:21]

We bring forth a reality from a multitude of possibilities. We can maybe overlap some teachings and bring forth overlapping realities. We can perhaps produce certain lessons and overlap such realities. But we're still then generating a reality. And that's the meaning of emptiness. If that's not the case, then there's some kind of oneness or godness or Archimedean point. Some point where you move the system, the Archimedean point. What Every way we enter into these relationships produces a teaching. And what I find so interesting about Castaneda is how thoroughly he overlaps, not completely, but overlaps considerably with Buddhism.

[46:33]

And how even when there are areas which I have no experience of that he speaks about, and I haven't generated that reality, there's a strange logic to what he says, which is very similar to the logic of Buddhism. Now, all this is leading up to using his term, the assemblage point. And we could say very simply that a koan or Dogen's teaching is an attempt to move your assemblage point. Now, koans have been reduced to zappers.

[47:34]

To some... Frank zappers. Frank zappers, yeah. Have been frankly reduced to zapper. I love crying on my translated shoulder. Don't cry. Zappers mean something that zaps you, like you put your hand in an electric light socket and zap. Don't you have words like zap in German? When you have German comic books, in American comic books, you have little thing goes zap, you know. Zip. Anyway. Yeah.

[48:34]

So koans have been brilliantly used but also reductively used to make certain points in stages of practice. And my feeling is if you take a koan, any of the major ones at least, you can't understand it till you move how you organize reality. And they don't try to tell you how to do it. But if it does move your how you organize reality, suddenly the koan is completely clear. So Dogen is trying to do something similar to this in this introduction to this koan, this fascicle.

[49:59]

When all things are the Buddha Dharma, when there's no abiding self, when you leap past the many and the one, when you accept flowers falling with your attachment and weeds growing with your aversion, when you let all of this together speak to you, it could, and Dogen's idea is what he laid down for us in ancient times, in the 13th century in his great compassion for us is to move our assemblage point to the Buddha Dharma to where we leap past the one and the many and then the next statement is the one that jibes with or is coextensive with or similar to Christus' statement.

[51:26]

And that we'll speak about after lunch. That's just to make sure she comes back. Okay, so let's sit for a brief time. Let me ask before we sit. I don't know how long it takes to get weight served in restaurants around here and all that stuff. But is two hours enough to have lunch? Should it be more? Should it be less? Two hours about, right? Okay, so we come back at... Two and a half. That would be 3.30. It's just on the corner. Oh, it's just, okay.

[52:26]

So we come back at three, about. The fan is doing that to the bell sound. It breaks it up. So we see the categories.

[53:59]

We're not apart from the categories. But we are also free of the categories. We see through or past the categories. Then we enter into the life discover the life for ourselves of the Buddha Dharma. Yet flowers fall with our attachment and still weeds grow with our neglect. Thank you very much for this morning.

[55:43]

It's a great, soft pleasure to be here with you. And to be with my translators. Thank you very much. I said translators. I'm not flirting with your wife, but I should occasionally. One?

[56:53]

Oh, yes. It just appeared. This is plötzlich aufgetaucht, flip chart. You want me to write something on it? Yeah. It's a little bit like the shape paper and text. Oh. We make the paper move. I have to put the fan on it then. Okay. Did you all have a reasonably good lunch? Come in. Okay.

[57:57]

Is there anything at this point you'd like to bring up or mention or discuss? Yes. I notice when I go into meditation, go deep into meditation, I become very sharp and very serious. Whoa. And I don't know really what to do with it. In German? When I go deep into meditation, I become very sharp and very serious. And I don't know exactly how to deal with it. What do you mean by sharp? Sharp. I get this kind of energy.

[58:58]

Oh. And what do you mean by serious? Serious. My face. So you're kind of... I'm just imitating you. What's wrong with that? I'm going to try it in meditation next time. What would you prefer? I would prefer being relaxed. You think? Okay, next time you sit, you'll be relaxed.

[60:03]

But basically, we just have to accept what's there. Maybe I'll come back. Something else? I've been so perfectly clear that there's no questions. Thank you very much. I'm going to have to start teaching more ineffectively so there's more questions. I've appreciated the questions you've had so far and they've been quite useful.

[61:19]

Yes. Existing two meanings, the psychological meaning and the meaning you had before when you said you are identified by everything. So could you figure out what it was? Deutsch? What would you say is the difference between the two? What do you think is the difference between the two identifications?

[62:31]

Psychology, yes. Yeah, but this is, you mean freedom from self? As you meant, yeah. Yeah, but identification is a process. So the process of identifying yourself, which contributes to the ego or the... contributes to the self and the ego.

[63:41]

So now you're identifying yourself not with something specific. So instead of identifying myself with you, or with Eric, Florian, I'm identifying myself with all of you. And with everything. So that's a process of producing a Buddha identity rather than a personal identity. But the process is the same. But the object of the process is different. But this is the same question you asked this morning, basically. So that's good. That is good. To stick with it.

[64:41]

So I still have to give you Dogen's next statement to answer both of your questions. Or hopefully to answer your questions. Something else? You mean this is a kind of connectedness? But instead of connecting yourself to the self, you're connecting yourself to all things. So sometimes we say, the self covers everything. But when you say the self covers everything, you mean self with a capital S. But is self capitalized anyway in German?

[65:53]

Yeah. So then we have to say, in German, every letter is a capital S. So the one way to understand freedom from the self Und die eine Art, das Weissein vom Selbst zu verstehen, ist es, das Selbst auszudehnen, sodass es alles bedeckt. Okay. Yes? Is it still the same? Is it the same self? Is it still the same? Is it still a self? Yes. A kind of self.

[66:53]

Deutsch? Nein. A self is something you function through. But there is no continuity. Continuity in the way self covers everything, but no other continuity. Yeah, but self, in Deutsch? But self is not only defined through continuity. The self is how we function. And when we function through a narrative continuity, Buddhism says this is delusion. It's not a real continuity. But when we function through being identified by all things, you can say this is a kind of self.

[68:01]

This would be the meaning why we say Buddha-nature. Does this make sense? Okay. Yes. Good. Yeah. I would like to hear more about the Buddha nature. No. Oh, I'm going to keep it a secret. Oh no, maybe we'll speak about Buddha-nature. It's a rather subtle question, what is Buddha nature?

[69:09]

And it's not shared by all of Buddhism. The idea of a Buddha nature is particular to Yogacara and Zen. But in a way, everything we're talking about is about Buddha nature. To say you're identified by all things is to point at Buddha nature. I just said something. You're welcome. Yes. I'm just struggling with this translation of being identified by all things. You say I'm determined by all this in your translation.

[70:29]

Is it the same? More determined by all this? I'm not determined. That's not what I meant. Well, you know, in the No one knows how to translate what Dogen said. Sometimes it's translated to be enlightened by all things. But Suzuki Roshi preferred to say to be identified by all things. But there must be some way to say that in German. Yeah, but the problem with to be identified is that you can take the misleading interpretation to be determined by all things, which is not correct. Well, we all understand the problem, so that's enough.

[71:34]

Or identified through. Yeah. I see. So you don't say he's identified by his red hair and his big nose and his... How do you say... How would you say that? You don't say it. Yeah. We say it, yeah. Characterized. Characterized. Yeah, so you might say, to be recognized by all things. Well, that's a problem in English because of the word cognize, to think, to know. Anyway, I think we understand the problem. I can't translate it for you No, but it's interesting. Also, wir verstehen alle das Problem und können es jetzt nicht lösen.

[72:42]

And I really think this is exactly the kind of thing we should discuss. Und ich glaube, das ist wirklich das, was wir eigentlich diskutieren sollten. Because, you know, as I said, our ideas are very, very powerful. Weil ich wie gesagt habe, unsere Ideen sind sehr, sehr machtvoll. So you really want to look at How you're describing yourself to yourself. Okay, something else? Semantics? No. No, I don't think it's just semantics. It's really a process of how we look at ourselves through language. Yes? You gave us a statement of Darwin once. That's the next line in the Genjo Koan, which I'm about to give you when we finish the questions as a special, you know, tribute to Christa.

[73:52]

The salute, yes. And because it so fits with her, what she called her peculiar idea this morning. I like having a small seminar like this, because I can talk with all of you. Yes, Christa? Yes. So during the lunch we came to another parallel between identification used in a psychological sense and the way you are using it?

[75:12]

Yes. So identification has something to do with identity, identity in a psychological sense. And in the learning process of a child, the child identifies itself with a grown-up or something else. And there is a certain parallel with what you say is the study of the self. And to make the observed and... The latter part I didn't get.

[76:25]

What was it again? Why don't you say it? As soon as the child makes the observe to its own identity, it forgets where the identity comes from. You mean once the child makes the transference from the parent, it forgets that it got it from the parent, and then the parent is pissed off? It makes me think of my 34-year-old when she was two or three. Maybe she was three or four, I don't know. But I told her,

[77:26]

she should do something. And she said she wouldn't do it. And I said, but you have to do it. I said, Virginia, that was my wife's name. I said, Virginia and I made you. And I said, you belong to us. You belong to us. Yeah, I said that. And she said, it's too late now. I belong to me. So that was good. I was proud of her. I said, like, sharp. Now I belong to me. Yeah. Something else? I've experienced that in meditation, being the observer is quite a fluid thing, because it's like with the onion layers.

[79:08]

You look at something and then you also can look at yourself looking at something. I mean, is it just to swim through this, or should you stay with the breath and observe from there, or just be in everything? A little of all. I can't just do it in German. I made the question while meditating, that it is a very unstable, flowing thing, that you observe yourself, that you can then come back to another level and observe yourself and watch. And that there is simply no end to it.

[80:14]

That it goes from one thing to another. And I asked him if only if you stay with the breath, if you stay in the breath, if you can evaluate from there, more stable, maybe even more, or if you should just be in all three, directly, immediately. Yeah, that's a good point. There's no clear answer to what you're saying. Because this practice is a craft. And you're learning the craft. But I would say that at the stage, at...

[81:17]

the stage of practice that you're at, and this is true of all stages of practice as well, is that part of each stage is taking inventory of the stage you're at. So in other words, You notice, you just observe. Yeah, sometimes I can stay with my breath. Sometimes my observer changes. Sometimes I create an observer of the observer. And so forth. So you begin to see there's an inventory of possibilities. And it's actually quite good just to notice these things with the feeling, oh, that's a possibility.

[82:30]

I wonder what that's about. But you're really looking for your energy to tell you what you really should explore. And that development of that energy is also related to developing a knowledge for yourself of what's wholesome and unwholesome. And it's also related to knowing what's a valid cognition and what's not a valid cognition. And it's also... I'll continue. And it's also related to knowing the physicality of the mind.

[83:33]

So you can feel your mental energy. And it's also related to enfolding and folding. Some people speak about merging the mind of non-dreaming, deep sleep, dreaming, and waking. I think that's a mistake. Or at least, if you use the word merge, I don't think you can merge them. You can enfold them. In other words, dreaming and Dreaming mind and waking mind. They work through their separateness.

[84:39]

So we can't make them one. We can have a mind which includes them. But we can fold dreaming mind into waking mind. Like when you have a... lucid dream. There's various ways to understand how we could say original mind is is present within dreaming mind. Or we can say observing consciousness puts a little kind of bubble down into dreaming mind like a little one of those things that goes down in the ocean and looks around. Or just how you take a glass and put it under the suds in the dishwater and look at the silverware.

[85:49]

That's how I used to wash the dishes as a kid a lot. I somehow loved to study the silverware under the suds. I can remember my parents saying, are you still washing the dishes? That was one of my duties. But you don't want to merge, you know, otherwise the suds, you know, so when you do that, looking into your dreaming mind, because a certain integrity remains to waking consciousness, to the observing consciousness, that waking consciousness can observe the dreaming consciousness.

[86:58]

And there's a different feeling to both. And the more we have an experience of the interpenetration of minds and this is partly what you're saying you're exploring at some point this interpenetration comes together as energy and then it becomes very clear what to stay with But until that happens, you're just taking an inventory. Does that make sense? It's okay. Sometimes I do stay with something. But you shouldn't do it by intention.

[88:16]

Structured meditation and unstructured meditation. Okay, now I'll give you this statement of Dogen's. I've kept you in anticipation long enough. If I wait any longer, you'll think it's boring. Dogen says at this next point, All when going forward, and experiencing myriad things is delusion.

[89:21]

Going forward, advancing, and experiencing myriad things is delusion. Now, this is a very effective thing to do. And this is the way most people accomplish things. Now, Dogen says the next phrase is... When all things advance and experience themselves, this is enlightenment. When all things advance and realize themselves, this is enlightenment. So practically speaking, we have to do things in the usual way.

[90:34]

But you're also keeping this vision, this feeling of being identified through all things, of letting things advance and experiencing themselves. Now, that doesn't just mean I let the microphone advance and the roses advance. And I let Marguerite, is that right? Yeah. Margit? To Margit advance and realize herself. Although I'm quite happy if you do. Okay.

[91:35]

So it's not just that I let the roses and the microphone and even my, I have to tease him, even my translator.

[91:42]

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