So, for those of you who don't know, my name is Paul Heller, and I'm Director of Outreach here, and I'm going to talk about the Gandhiyo Koan this morning. Now, there's a line about, in this translation, which is the one we chanted in the morning, so I don't know which one you've been working with, but there's a line there that says, it's, fully engaging body and mind. So here's a question. What is it to do the chant we just did, fully engaging body and mind? So here's what I'd like to suggest. Think about that for a moment. I mean, that's what it says here in the Gandhiyo Koan, and if we're going to study it, it would seem that we'd have to somehow let it be part of who we are and what we are and

[01:04]

how we do things. So if you would please, for a moment, fully engage in body and mind, and then let's do the chant again, and let each of us fully engage body and mind. I'm not saying you should think, okay, what does that, what does he think that means, and I should comply with it, or what does that mean at Zen Center, or Zen, or Buddhism, or whatever. I would suggest to you that you just take it to heart. What does it mean to you to fully engage body and mind when you chant, and if not now, when would you do it? Okay. Could you hit the bell again and we'll do the chant again? And unsurpassed, penetrating and perfect Dharma is rarely met with even in a hundred thousand

[02:20]

million golfers, having it to see and listen to, to remember and accept. I vow to taste the truth of the Tathagata's words. So how do you know if you've done it? No regrets. No regrets. Any other comments? There are certain moments where the voice, um, there is physical body, and what I say, the chant falls together with the physical, um, phenomenon. Falls together with the physical phenomenon? Right. Within, or without, or both?

[03:25]

Within. Anyone else? I feel invigorated by it. Okay. Well, let's have a poll. Who thinks they actualized body and mind? Put your hand up. Totally ignored. Oh, right. Totally ignored. Who was actualized and engaged? Thank you. Thank you. Who thinks they engaged the body and mind? Fully engaged. So, um, Did you want to say something, Russ? Go ahead. Fully seems like a very freighted, loaded adjective. As if, um, as my esteemed colleague here said,

[04:29]

is it possible to ever do anything fully and know that it's fully, there isn't one scintilla more that might have been engaged? Hmm. So, can you think of a part of the Genjo Koan that addresses that question? Um, isn't there a line that says, um, something to the effect that when you feel as though, when Dharma fills your body and mind, you feel as though something is missing? Yes, there is. And then there's something else that deals with the hair spreads deviation. Yep. That's right. And then the capacity changes from moment to moment too, so what may be fully in one moment may be completely inadequate in another moment. That's right. And then there's also a line which says,

[05:30]

when Buddhas are truly Buddhas, they do not necessarily notice. So, is one of these true and the others not? Are they all saying the same thing? Are they pointing at different aspects of practice? I was thinking about as I was chanting, you know, there was a moment where I was fully engaged in the chant, and kind of feeling in harmony, and then there was another moment when I wasn't feeling in harmony, and trying to get back into harmony, and thinking is one less fully engaged than the other? I don't think so. You know, each is an appropriate response to what's happening. Go ahead.

[06:55]

There's still so many levels that are actually participating in doing everything, but still aren't quite there. But that also might be holding a fixed idea of what fully means. When you're still striving to remember the words, that's fully when you don't know the words. Or to put it another way, is there some accomplishment that's a prerequisite to fully engaging? What would you say to that, Lisa? That's an idea? I think that we should all be very aware of that we're trying,

[08:00]

that it's an effort of interest. Is there an absolute notion of this outside of ourself? Or is it couched only in terms of what we are capable of at the moment? Is there an absolute notion of this? What is the this? The degree of engagement. Is there an absolute notion that we can look to that's beyond everyone in the room at this moment? That's an interesting question, and I think there would be a rare way to answer it. But then if we take the word notion and we shift it and we say,

[09:03]

is there a direct experience that affirms this, that goes beyond our particular prejudices and judgments and assessments, then it becomes a very interesting question. And I would say that is the question of actualizing the fundamental point. That is the genjo koan. You know, whether it comes up formally in these activities that we take on because we have been led to believe they offer something, that they have a skillfulness about them, which I think links to your point, Lisa. I mean, why bother with any forms if every moment has an intrinsic capacity

[10:03]

to fully express the Buddha way? I mean, why chant? Why do anything in a particular way? Why not just say, well, let's go ahead and do it? No? It goes so far beyond the words. Some of these are just our chants. Some of these are vows. I mean, we are taking vows here for something that, you know, it's not just the words. Well, I think that I believe it and that I want to follow it in my life, in my views, in everything that I do. It's not just the words. Yeah. So another aspect of our being, of our capacity to be is called into play. It's not just the expression of our material being,

[11:05]

of our mind and body. It's something more. It's our intention. It's our heartfulness. Well, and to get to what you were saying about, you know, the form and the ritual and why it happens, when I chant sometimes, I notice when I'm listening and when I'm not listening. When I'm listening to other people, and I hear sometimes a resolution when we all come together, you know, in a chant. And there's a power there as we kind of slide in together that I don't find sometimes when I'm just chanting by myself. So perhaps as part of it, we're careful listening to each other to be coming into harmony or the harmony that's already there. We're trying to enter it together or realize it together. Yeah. So actualizing a koan

[12:07]

has a realization. Something is realized about the nature of what is. And then is that something that satisfies and affirms our ideas and opinions or is it something that goes beyond our ideas and opinions? So this is another element of koan, of studying a koan, of engaging it. And I would suggest that this is the key element of genjo koan. Jennifer, do you want to take that? There are sometimes moments in chanting where I do not... where I chant the word. It happens a lot with the Japanese chanting. I don't know what it means. Where it seems as if I understood what I was chanting

[13:13]

but it almost didn't matter what I chanted at that moment. It seems as if the words dissolve into something completely different. And that together with... when the voice comes from deeply in the body it seems as if it is just... it becomes a different gesture. It's not chanting a koan. It's something that lies on many different levels. It's devotion. It brings in all... all things that I want to do, what I love, what I... It's sort of like... It is not only chanting the word and doing a ritual or a koan. It becomes something completely different. Can you think of a part of the genjo koan that captures that? That expresses that?

[14:13]

Well, there is a line that has been running through my head and it is, to carry yourself forward and experience myriad things that myriad things... It's sort of like a balance, a certain balance and there are certain moments where there is a balance and then it falls down. I'm not getting that last part. When myriad things come forth... Well, there was a way in which it seemed appropriate to me is that when... when I chant and it's expression of self, small self, then it has that... constriction, restriction. But when chanting chants, then it's more like an opening,

[15:27]

it's more like an inclusion, an invitation and then all the different textures and layers that are within that come forth. But I didn't... when you were talking about balance, I didn't get that part. Because then, at these moments, it is almost as if all things that happen exist at the same time. It is not that only one thing exists and it's being held but it is there at the same time. It is not there. And it's always accessible. In really, really small moments. But I am not quite sure about the monotone.

[16:36]

When we chant, that word that we are supposed to use in a very monotone, little complexion, or know the complexion, are we not supposed to think of the meaning and just be speaking? Kind of like a bathroom, just more of a non-attachment to the world? I didn't know if there was a reason that because it was monotone, we weren't supposed to. I was supposed to do it in a monotone. I didn't understand that. Well, I mean, I think you were offering that at that moment, but overall, when we do this every day, why are we not doing it? I don't remember you saying that very much.

[17:57]

Well, that could be a totally different way to be really fully engaged. Someone has to perhaps sing, or dance, or draw. I was going to say, it seems like there's a so-so Zen fully engaging body in mind, a Rinzai. I think her imagination is much more interesting. I think her point, it's a very, very interesting and important point. Which point was that? The point that even though she didn't understand the meaning of the words, she responded to the sound,

[19:00]

and I think my experience of chanting is that in the original language, there are several levels. There's the meaning of the word, but there's the acoustical shape of the word. And the mind is very, very capable of responding to acoustical shape, as in music. So, I was wondering, can a chant be translated, if in translation to another language, it loses the message of acoustical shape? Whether or not we can what? I think so. I do, because I feel that I use the word move in my practice, because I feel it has a shape that my mind is intrinsically designed to grasp

[20:04]

as the hand, the ball. To grasp the hand? Well, as the hand is designed to grasp a ball, things round. There are certain sounds that we respond to because of the intrinsic shape of what we are. And you think realizing move is contingent upon that attribute of your being? Well, I would say to you, it says in the Genju Koan, when the self goes forward, that's a different activity from when the world comes forward and engages the self. The way I read it, it says when the world comes forward, when the 10,000 myriad dharmas come forward and realize the self, that is realization. When the self goes forward and defines and says, this is this and this is this and that's that, but that's not.

[21:06]

So I wonder how you read that part. Do you know the part I'm talking about? No, I don't. Okay. To carry the self forward and experience myriad things. That's the first part. That myriad things come forth and experience themselves. It's about... That myriad things come forth and experience themselves is awakening. I can't answer you right now. I haven't thought enough about that. I'm sorry. Do you get my point? I mean, just in conventional thinking, do you see what I was trying to say? I'm not sure. The point I was trying to make, I guess, is that chanting

[22:08]

depends on the sound of the language it's originally composed in. And I was wondering if that can be translated as these are into English. And I think that's a good point. And for many years here at this Zen Center, we chanted in Japanese or Japanese transliteration of Chinese for that very point. Well, first of all, we did it because that's what the finding teachers did. And then we did it because we thought, if we change it, will we lose something, some intrinsic efficacy within its syllables, its signs? You know, in a yogic tradition of Sanskrit, there are four basic signs and each of them resonates in a different part of the body. And that is part of the

[23:11]

activity of mantra. Is that this engagement, this going beyond something, some activity of mind into something fuller and richer. But still, I would still say, is realization contingent upon that? You know, is the realization contingent upon doing it the way Zen Center does it rather than getting up and dancing and singing around the room? Is realization contingent upon compliance with ancient Sanskrit signs? I think this fascicle by Dogen is asking us, you know, at the very start he's saying, what is it you're doing here? What exactly is this about? What exactly is actualizing the fundamental point? Yeah.

[24:14]

That's, you know, to give that question a weightiness that it draws us down into our own being. That it starts to stir us up. That maybe we start to notice, as Jennifer was saying, that when we engage body and mind in chanting, there is a resonance. When we engage those sounds, when we engage mu, there is a happening. That engagement has, can shift. You know, when I was thinking, oh, when I was going to teach this class, I thought, okay, well, what would be a nice way to shift? Because the danger of a class is, you know, the person who's teaching comes in

[25:16]

and sits down and you sit there and then we all go into our heads and then we all think, oh, that's a nice idea. Oh, that's, no, that's not the way Shouhaku said it or the way Kathleen said it. Or, and then it's just, we're using about this much of our being, this territory of discursive thought. So I thought, okay, how can we make a shift into something more provocative, something more alive, something more dangerous, unpredictable. In other words, something that represents and looks more like our life. Alive, unpredictable, dangerous, provocative, delightful. Mark? Yeah, I just had a thought. Earlier, you asked, is there some prerequisite to fully engage? So,

[26:17]

that was spinning around for a while and there is a prerequisite and that would be to engage in, would that be to engage in dualistic, would a prerequisite be to be engaged in a dualistic state of mind? What do you say? No. I thought it did, but that's what I'm speaking out here. What did Parker guess about? Can you, can you explain that? I mean, can you? Well, I think in a fully engaged, there's some idea of engagement or less engagement or more engagement. You know, there's this thinking that discrimination and splitting and duality. You know, it's this thing of if Buddhas do not necessarily notice that they are Buddhas because they're in a unified state of mind, not dualistic state of mind. Could you say a little bit more

[27:18]

about unified state of mind? Well, that would include fully engaging and not fully engaging. So that's why there isn't a conflict. That's why I'm changing my point of view. Yeah. Yeah, another way to say it would be that the Buddha just does it. You know, and it comes out whatever way it comes out. You know, it's, it hasn't already been filtered and edited as to whether I'm judged and assessed. It's just, it just is what it is. Including the thoughts and ideas. Of mind. Well, let's see. When I, notice when I'm doing something

[28:19]

liturgically, that seems to be able to get my attention more. Get my attention focused. And, and, let's see. And we're going along. And then all of a sudden, a self-conscious thought arises. Whoa, my voice is pretty good. Or, where is everybody else? I notice that at least for me, the satisfaction, that I would call fully engaged, is where there's no me in it. There's no self-consciousness. Or like, ooh, my voice, that's pretty good. Or at that point, that's pretty bad. You know, whenever there's a reflection on it, just stepping back, that's, I don't know, that's what I would say, not fully engaged. That's it. Yeah, I have a similar question, I think. If everything is just

[29:20]

like it is, it comes out just like it is. If everything is what it is? Yes. And, is it possible not to engage fully, fully body and mind? And then we get to the con that's at the end of this, this, right? If the wind is universal, if the wind blows everywhere, is it possible that there isn't wind? Is it possible that the full activity of wind is not occurring at all times? But what about the fanning? Exactly. Yeah. Why did it occur to Dogen to stick that coin in there? Was he just like, he needed something to fill up space? I don't have enough words. This is a two thousand word essay and I'm only up to fifteen hundred. I know, I'll throw in that coin. No, he's, he thought this coin has a direct bearing

[30:20]

on exactly what we're talking about. Where does purposeful activity fit into actualization? And Jack's saying, well, you know, it can bring up, for him, it can bring up the pitfall that it can bring up discriminating mind. I'm doing it right, I'm doing it wrong, someone else is doing it right, someone else is doing it wrong. This is it, this is not it. So the monk thinks, well, hey, why don't we drop all that? Since everything is already fully engaged, how could it be anything other than fully, how can you be anything other than completely what you are? You can't. You know, whether you like it, whether you don't like it, whether you realize it, you don't realize it,

[31:20]

there it is, it's happening fully. So we ask the teacher, then why are you fanning yourself? Why chant that chant instead of just anything else? Why even chant? So this fascicle is asking us to look at all this in reference to actualizing the fundamental point. And then there's a very interesting part that Dogen says. When you first seek Dharma, you imagine you're far away from its environs. So part of the way I understand that

[32:26]

is he's saying we start to do these practices because we think this is not it. This is not fully engaging body and mind. Something has to be worked on, created, uncreated. And so we seek to practice. I'm glad you said that. Yesterday I really noticed when Kathleen was talking that there was a lot of discomfort and interest in the idea of effort, you know, of putting effort as one of the paramitas. And today, you know, with people like us bringing up, you know, can we ever do enough? And the answer is and I myself feel a lot of anxiety around effort, whether I'm trying hard, whether I'm trying hard or not. And I really think it comes from because I think I'm far away. And the anxiety of

[33:28]

thinking that we're far away makes this effort question a real problem. It seems to me you're very intrinsically connected. For me, it's such a pleasure to drop into that whatever I do is the best effort that I can make in that moment. For me, that's such a relief from my usual mode of deifying effort. You know, whether that's a Western thing or not, it certainly feels very comfortable to me. Just do it. I was very funny when you said that. Nike. You said Buddha just does it. Did you know that the guy who wrote that ad is a Buddhist? And I asked him, well, where did that come from?

[34:28]

And he says, I'm a Buddhist practitioner and as far as I'm concerned, that phrase captures the whole of Buddhist practice. So I want you to know that Nike is spending hundreds of millions of dollars on spreading the Dharma. Jake. Well, so, so I was trying to get your comment to ask if this is it, if this actually is it, then why do we need to practice that? If, because if this is it, what else could there be? I think because I don't permanently believe this is it. I think not just my idea, I got it from somewhere, this really isn't it quite yet. Or it should be a little bit different. Or it's your fault because it isn't.

[35:29]

So, when I put, when me gets put in, this isn't it. So I think that I live this kind of life to help me accept that this might be it. And I do in certain practices, no matter what I think of them, to help this kind of stand less often that sense of this isn't it. But just the way you say it, Jake, it sounds to me like you're saying different things. It sounds like in one hand you're saying in intimate engagement I experience my own separation. I experience the activity of qualification and separation and limitation. But it also sounds like just from the way you said it, it sounds like you understand something deeper. You know, Maybe.

[36:31]

It's a good question. And I would suggest maybe. I think it's important for us not to think that when that discriminating mind pops up that all intimacy has been lost. What about intimacy with discriminating mind? With the way we wrestle. You know, the way I think there's a way in which as we continue with our practice there are painful awarenesses. But they're still awarenesses. Yeah. Yes. You know, if we go back to the start, you know, and we look at it this way and we say form becomes emptiness. Okay, so that's that's what I was thinking of too, Jennifer,

[37:38]

when you said the piece you did. So we go beyond the particular and we experience the wide potential of everything. And then we experience the particular arising out of the wide potential. But then it also goes back and forth. And in more conventional experience we take up the form and then we we bring all sorts of stuff to it. Praising ourselves, judging ourselves, qualifying it, quantifying it, whatever we do. But that has its own intimacy too. That has its own actualizing. And as we take actualizing the fundamental point

[38:39]

and we work it and rework it, part of the intention is that we more fully realize what the fundamental point is. What is it we're engaging in? What brings us all here? And then the other point is that that we open up actualizing. That it's not just oh that's actualizing. When everything's like that, that little peak experience, that's actualizing and then everything else falls outside of it. That we open up and we start to see two things for the intrinsic potential in everything for actualizing. And then also a combination that we're not as far away from it as we think. Discriminating

[39:39]

mind does not have to be banished and turned into the pure land. That the request is something different. So we study actualizing. We study it in the workings of our own being. And we start to realize that yeah there is awareness there when discriminating mind arises. And we start to see that actualizing is not repressing discriminating mind. It's not setting up circumstances in wonder which discriminating mind never arises. It's something different from that. Loretta? I'm sorry if this is hair splitting or irrelevant but what is the which point are we talking if we are trying to

[40:39]

actualize the fundamental point is it point in terms of a point a location or is it point like idea? Are we actualizing the fundamental point of place or are we actualizing the fundamental reason the fundamental reason of the enlightened life the fundamental reason for the enlightened life? We are actualizing the experience of being awake and alive. And we can pick that up anywhere. You know we can start off by saying now wait a minute what is enchanting what is it to chant with full body and mind? No? That's one place

[41:42]

to start. You know we could start off anywhere. You know we could have taken this Yeah I think that's reason connotes something contained within our thinking and I would hope that experience connotes something very broad that it has endless literally has there are endless ways we can experience. I would just say it's probably not so helpful to get stuck on the English words the fundamental point that's one that's one translation that's translation of but other translations

[42:42]

have been reality actualizing what is is you know there there anyhow to get stuck on the English word point just might get you stuck that's all. What's the point on the other hand to say what's the point of what we're doing here is not a bad way to approach it. Paul are we always actualizing the fundamental point and we just don't know it? For example if I'm out weeding the garden and I'm feeling really angry while I'm weeding the garden for no particular reason can't find anything in my life even trying to find something in my life is already I'm not there am I actualizing the fundamental point on weeding the garden and feeling angry? Can anyone else answer that for you? I mean like I can say something right

[43:43]

and I mean we could experiment let's experiment I'll give you three answers and see which one is the most resonant in your being. Okay. Paul when you're weeding the garden and you're feeling angry are you actualizing the fundamental point? That's a different question than you just asked. That was a bait and switch. Okay. You want me to ask my question? That's why I think they're very different questions right? When you put it in this theoretical you know it's like then there is does that mean there is an

[44:44]

answer separate from our personal experience right? And or if you ask someone else to say okay why don't you tell me what my experience is? But if you ask someone to tell you their experience well that's they are fully authorized empowered and capable of that so it's very different. So when you were asking me what your experience was I was just going to make some suggestions and then see how they signed it to you. How does this sign? No. Never. Yes. Always. Sometimes yes. Sometimes no. And I think

[45:45]

even though Duggan is putting forth different ways to think about this different descriptions different elucidations of it I don't think he is in any way taking away the responsibility that's in front of each one of us. You know this is your life to live to realize to actualize and no matter how brilliant he is no matter how personally accomplished in the Dharma I realized that point doesn't change. Jack. When we're stuck when our relative

[46:48]

truth when we are convinced by the statement by the thought by the judgment that comes up in our head when we lose its place when it loses context and becomes absolute when it's reified when it has lost all the three marks of existence when it becomes permanent because it's stuck when it affirms the self I did this I, me this solid always abiding entity Would you call that something else? Actually, I have a point that's kind of vulgar Would you use another some words for I

[47:49]

this is solid this is real this is not going to change What's another word for that? Did you have a word there, Jennifer? Did you say something? No. Oh, I thought somebody Oh, did he? Delusion. Would you have another word? That's a good point isn't it? That's a very good point and I do I find short simple words or ideas are easier to bring forth than, you know long, complicated three sentence ideas you know those ones personally I only remember about, you know once a month Especially when you're

[48:53]

fighting with yourself and it's an argument you've had many times Someone else have their hand up? Lisa? It seems as though our minds are our natural instinct is to kind of want something solid to grasp onto but we do get we do get and if we don't we're like you know, they come on with a noncommanding approach it's a really great thing where it's like here we are with all this sincere effort into trying to find something solid in all these circular inversions here and we read and we're like oh yes we're experiencing this illusion the next the opposite of it but it does make sense to let it come forward and not delay it but yet none of it is really is really right because then that's solid that's some truth that we believe and so it's kind of putting all this you know this whole cause kind of you know it's a win and you know we're fanning it

[49:54]

and we're causing all this effort putting all this effort into it is that what is just the effort that's important more so than the actual grasping of some concept some understanding of it that's one of the ideas that's being introduced and I think it's significant that the Cohen comes towards the end you know that he's getting dying to effort towards the end of this I mean a lot of this is saying here's a way that makes it fluid but here's a way that gives it no ground to stand on here's a way that makes it expensive you know here's a way that allows it to be dynamic when you look outside it looks very solid when you're in the boat and you look at the shore it looks very solid when you look at the boat it becomes very dynamic so he puts a lot of time and thought and description

[50:54]

into creating that fluid and then he comes to effort and then he brings up the Cohen where the monk as if the monk has read what he's written so far and says yeah, yeah, yeah well then now wait a minute now why are all these details why do it that way I mean surely if I just enter the zendo attentively actually I guess the monk's saying even more something more radical the monk's saying by entering the zendo I'm fully expressing it and then the teacher is saying well when I enter the zendo I enter on the left side with the left foot so effort and I would say it is reflective of Soto Zen practice in particular the basic premise

[51:55]

is the intrinsic capacity for awakening that we're lacking nothing we're lacking nothing physically we're lacking nothing intellectually we're lacking nothing emotionally we are fully endowed with the capacity to practice this was Shakyamuni's great awakening all beings without exception are Buddha except they don't realize it I would like to comment this phrase the corn a fish swim in the ocean no matter how far it is it will not enter the water yes is it related to delusion? how do you attract to that phrase?

[53:00]

how do I understand it? yes I think from my understanding till now it concerns our limitation our delusion but if it's true it means that we in delusion and every awakening state of awakening is part of delusion and what about the sorry go ahead no but it's true what about the second part of it? the bird? no well the bird too but it's that's the same illustration if the fish tries to go beyond the water it will die at once so again something rather hopeless something hopeless yes we are in a world that you can't escape from what one can do

[54:02]

is to be aware to meet this truth to face the truth and if you are happy something can come to us that can be grasped by our consciousness if you are happy? it's my word but it's said that actualizing the point is something that it's not come can be grasped by our consciousness do you understand? I do understand, yes and I think that's a very significant point and I think if we think further up the essay Buddhas are enlightened about delusion

[55:02]

so does the fish have to go beyond the water of its own being to gain enlightenment? or does it find enlightenment within the waters of its own being that it's intrinsically involved in? so the way I understand it is the dogon is saying to determinedly the tribe to try to stop being yourself to determinedly to deny your own arising existence that you and all of everything else according to you to determinedly to go beyond that is not life affirming it's to shift from

[56:08]

the vitality of your own life to realize that within your own life within the very activity within the mind and emotion that says oh, I did it wrong again there is the intrinsic capacity and opportunity to awaken yes, but the idea I think is that the delusion is endless we lead from one delusion to another and even it's known in traditional in Tibetan there are ten realms till the Buddha realms all of them are not completely enlightened enlightenment is not completely real

[57:10]

only Buddha realm so in our state like human being we have to some way we live in delusion and through delusion we go from one stage to another stage I would answer your point this way that maybe maybe when we actualize and realize the mind that says damn it, I did it wrong again that that's a small actualization but two other parts of this come to mind there's a part that says that Buddhas go on actualizing within actualizing so I see that moment

[58:10]

maybe I see in that something in the nature of how I approach life maybe I see in that a basic human characteristic that pervades all humans but that actualization expands that's one point that it brings up for me and then there's another part where Dogen is talking about he's talking about activity and consciousness and he's saying sometimes it is just that it's a small engagement and then sometimes it's a very wide engagement and

[59:18]

I can't find it I can't remember the exact words but that's the gist of it he's talking about the field is small when their activity is large their field is large and then he goes on and says consciousness is also like this right in that section right in there somewhere Maizumi Roshi there's a line that Maizumi Roshi translates and I've not been able to see exactly what's the equivalent of this one no creature ever falls short of its own completeness I really appreciate that line and somewhere in there I think it's where there small real numbers

[60:22]

does that address your point? you don't look convinced no was it not clear? no to some extent but I have some answer but I think that maybe there is another answer well let me answer it in an entirely different way okay it's like where it says here when you first seek the Dharma you imagine you're far away from its environs so we come to practice from all the ideas and opinions and feelings that we have in our life and they bring us to practice and then as we practice and we have our experience of practice

[61:23]

it refines our ideas and opinions and feelings and and then that becomes the basis of how we start to engage and look at the world if we're lucky and thoughtful and diligent so there is a shift so to say that we don't go beyond delusion is true but in another way it is reasonable to say that there is a refining and so that teaching that you're talking about is more looking at that it's more looking at the gradual whereas this teaching is talking more about intrinsic capacity

[62:24]

and how to engage intrinsic capacity it doesn't have so much to do with trying to develop it bit by bit the subtle way is to appreciate to cultivate a deep appreciation so that when we sit down in Zazen there is a deep appreciation that this is it this very mind is Buddha this is it with all the stuff that's coming up this is it and that literally that deep appreciation and conviction literally

[63:26]

enables the capacity to see what's going on and then we start fanning ourselves I mean that's what Dogen is saying he's saying please appreciate this and then it's okay to fan yourself then it's okay to sit up straight follow your breathing check your mudra note your thoughts whatever you do given this basis that this what he's saying is this creates a foundation that allows fanning yourself to bring forth awakening rather than to separate from awakening the paradox is that there is delusion and only throughout the delusion you can get can reach or get some possibilities

[64:29]

to be free this is the paradox for me and of course it's worldly I'm not pessimistic I like the practice I'm not pessimistic but find that there is some there is some limitation of our state of mind of our existence there is some limitation? yes completely there is but in this situation is there a limitation of our capacity to awakening? yes because sometimes delusion doesn't stop we go from one delusion to another according to my understanding to the core Mike

[65:33]

the Tibetan system that describes the various realms doesn't have to be taken literally Tibetan tradition also emphasizes that the human birth is a very precious opportunity because human beings can realize the Buddha nature so it's not human condition doesn't mean that people can't awaken because they're not in the Buddha realm so the idea of the realms they're actually not necessarily literal human beings can experience what it's like in the hungry goat's realm or in the animal realm or in the warring gods realm the human realm is traditionally seen as the greatest opportunity to one of the greatest opportunities to awaken to the death condition it's a precious opportunity to awaken breath it sort of almost seems along with many layers and levels of insight

[66:40]

in this koan it almost seems as if what I can take from it as a whole and from this class is sort of the Suzuki Roshi Blanche comment you're perfect the way you are and you could do a little improvement like it's ok that things are just the way they are just keep doing what you're doing with right intention but don't think about getting somewhere yeah, you could say it that way that's the final koan but I would say it a different way I would say whether you realize it or not whether you are comfortable with it or not you're completely you

[67:43]

and fanning yourself is the very activity that creates within delusion awakening that's why we fan ourselves and that's the point of this koan is understanding the nature of fanning the nature of actualizing so there's two points one is what is the fundamental point and what is the actualization of it in a pre-commitment

[68:50]

before the big commitment but then the actuality is we're already married right right right but we all feel it's like I tell myself often times I want it to be pre-committed in the engaged state so I can check it out more fully right and see if I really want to come into the marriage but I guess the reality is we're already married see right and I was thinking of it another way Ryan I think of commit I'm committed to going there tomorrow it's different from I'm going right now like putting the car in here yeah really can imply more of the future and of course they're all just words right right and what actualizing is about is the intimate inner work

[69:52]

of whether we want to call it committing or engaging the doing the discovering you know what does that phrase fanning mean in the intimacy of my doing what is it yes the actualizing the expression the engaging the committing whenever the word as Jack says you know give it to me in a short phrase that I can sort of like become you know a phrase that sort of is can is somehow I can become the phrase the phrase can become me where it comes up as close as all the other things that come up in me why do we have a bulletin board called engaged freedom in the hallway and is it only on that you know are only the things on that bulletin board or what

[70:54]

that's because some people have an idea that there's such a thing as disengaged and because we forget why do we practice it all it doesn't mean that the wind is not universal just another way to fan yourself okay did someone else over there have their hand up please I was attending some tea ceremony in Japan and it was a wonderful tea master and he spoke English and after the ceremony he asked for commentary or questions and I I had a few

[71:56]

things I asked him and he gave me short seemingly unrelated answers and yet when I walked out I realized that I was enslaved by the need to find significance in everything and I was wondering if sometimes people write in such a dense entanglement to exhaust us by the end of the talk um that could be part of it but I would also suggest to you that there is a way in which you know we are going to think that's what we do the kind of creatures we are we think we do use our mind

[72:57]

to look at the world and say that's a window and that's another window and we have thoughts and opinions and and that can be an unattended enslavement or our very thinking can become a tool for realization and and I think that's part of the challenge of of studying the teachings you know can our mind become can our thinking become a tool you know I think it's not so helpful to think um oh well koans are just there to tie your mind in knots and exhaust itself it sort of makes it sound like you'd be better off without a mind I didn't mean exactly that

[74:03]

I know it probably sounded like that you're right that's very confusing to me when does a mind a good thing to have and when is it not and I recently read the Lotus Sutra partly in preparation for coming here but mostly because it's an immensely important document and I wanted to read it and I found myself wading through page after page of immensity and I finally realized that for me at least the only way to understand and get anything from it was to back away as if from an immense mural when I stood too close to it I saw only the strokes of the brush and when I stood back from it I I had this overall penetrating feeling of how important it was to think the right thing to do the right thing and I'm not quite sure how I I got that from it

[75:04]

but when I got too close to it it it didn't mean anything to me and so I guess my question is exactly what you were saying is thinking a tool that's a question exactly and I think your question of you know when is the mind useful and when is it not useful in terms of actualizing the fundamental point in terms of actualizing our experience I think that's a good question for us sometimes it does very much get in the way and then sometimes it stirs us and motivates us and orientates us and gives us a way to reference that reminds us what it is we're trying to do so I think it's a very good question so to end here's what I'd like to suggest that we end where we began and to think once again

[76:04]

what would it be to chant in a way that engages body and mind in actualizing the Dharma and once again I would say do it your way just don't harm anyone else let's add that to it what are we going to chant? trade every being and play

[76:56]

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