It's obvious that the greatest conceptual and instrumental overlap with a Western practice is psychotherapy and psychology. There definitely is an overlap. Conceptual overlap and instrumental overlap. Yeah, and... I would say that the largest demographic in the Dharma Sangha are therapists.

[01:00]

Yeah. probably the next is maybe computer programmers. Because I guess that's, you know, you're also involved with how the mind works and how thinking works and so forth. So I've been wondering what Can we make this more clear, the relationship between psychotherapy and psychology and Buddhist and Zen practice? So, rather haphazardly, the way I usually do things.

[02:13]

So when it occurs to me, it occurs to me for years, and then finally I say, Well, couldn't you do something about this? And some people are people who make things happen, and some people don't make things happen. They think about it. So the first person I asked out of a chance conversation spent a year thinking about it. So then I asked a couple of people who make things happen, and it happened in a few weeks. There was a meeting of how many people? Ten? Eight? Yeah. And there were a couple of people who couldn't come for various reasons.

[03:30]

So this turned into a meeting of a couple days. Four and a half days. Oh, really? Wednesday through Sunday. At Johanneshof. And Andrea and Nicole were both there. And Andrea and Nicole were both there. And I thought maybe there's a hundred people I could invite. I could have been invited by somebody. But the logistics of that plus how you have a real conversation, it's not possible. But because of the logistics and also And I felt completely, especially weird, not speaking to you all about it, because we've been meeting for 27 years or something like that.

[04:35]

I think that's called a quarter of a century. So now I'm wondering, should we have another meeting, another small meeting, or should we do something? I don't know. Like Hiltun said to me yesterday, I guess, our meeting like this has changed her relationship to how she uses words or thinks about words. And many people have spoken to me about various aspects that seem to have been useful overlaps. And so like the conversation or discussion or talk we just had before lunch,

[05:50]

Is that engagement with the real craft of practice useful to you personally or as a therapist? So it seems to me there's both practices and... and attitudes, views that resonate between psychotherapy and Zen practice. And before I die, it would be nice, not I'm putting any pressure on you or anything like that, but before I die, it would be nice for me to feel, yes, something, some sort of, all these years have led to noticing how we can put these things together or how they're different.

[07:11]

I've always said Buddhism is basically a mindology and not a psychology. But now I think the overlap, that's something I said 20 years ago, but now I think the overlap is more practical. And while the differences are real and the differences are... the value, there's a value in them being different. A simplistic conflation of the two doesn't make sense.

[08:15]

Nor does it make sense for some Buddhist practitioners to say, I don't need psychotherapy practices enough. Sometimes it's not. So I thought since Andrea and Nicola are both here, And I just got a longish letter from Alexander Leuthold, one of the organizers, who commented to me, with me, about how that meeting went. So I asked Andrea and Nicole if it's okay with all of you that they could discuss a little bit the meeting that happened.

[09:22]

And Andrea said, oh, I'm happy to. What do you mean, about two minutes? And Andrea said, oh, I'm happy to. What do you mean, about two minutes? Did you say four minutes? I said, four minutes? Are you crazy? That's not long enough for a hug. So I would like you and I to move. Look, she's making faces again. This is a form of vanity. She's used to it. Well, then you're going to get used to it. Okay. Okay. Andrea, I think you should sit in my seat.

[11:12]

You look nice up there, Jordan. Well, I don't really want to talk about the process of this seminar. Of course, it took a while for us to introduce ourselves and locate ourselves, and who came from which direction. We were from very different directions. Yes, I want to now, but that's clear anyway, and I don't think that's so interesting for you now.

[12:51]

Again, a little louder and maybe a little slower. Yes, okay, yes. One thing that comes to mind when I think about it, it's been a while now, there are two directions. One was to see how affects our Buddhist practice, our psychotherapeutic work, and vice versa? So how do we as psychotherapists approach certain things in practice, and how do they develop for us with what we already have in our respective direction of psychotherapy? Maybe I can just say two or three keywords about this.

[13:56]

One is, so to speak, how can I consider my psychotherapeutic work as a yogic practice, care for it, develop it? That was one aspect. Then another is my work as a psychotherapist, understanding in the sense of a bodhisattva practice. And there was a resonance among many of us that in our professional environment as psychotherapists it is easier, that this therapeutic environment, this work, is an invitation to it. There were a few keywords like, for example, abstinence has fallen at some point and then such a question, yes, can I really

[15:07]

an abstinence that now does not depend on this external form, like the old analysts used to do, but that really depends on a selflessness and that it is not about my interests and a well-treated own narcissism. Can I do that without a Buddhist practice or perhaps a kind of spiritual practice. But in our case, that was one place where we went a little deeper. Then also the practice of empathy and compassion. Empathy is more the psychological term and compassion from the practice. And how that develops in these two fields and Then there were two basic gestures that are simply important in both fields.

[16:16]

One is simply to accept, and the other is to the ability to create space, to design space, space as always interpersonal space, which I can open and expand differently through certain Buddhist practical skills or crafts, and the information that came back to me as a therapist from this room. Then maybe this basic ability, which is also developed in both fields, but in different ways, and which I find very fruitful in both directions, is all these qualities of observation, investigation,

[17:29]

Yes, we have a lot of them. Investigate, etc. All these terms that we have been talking about a lot in the last few days, that's something that I want to develop with someone beyond the content, beyond the stories with which someone comes. and this shift from the content of the story that someone tells and the entanglement and patterns and fixations that appear there to this field consciousness. Yes. Ich muss ein bisschen aufpassen, weil ich natürlich hauptsächlich die Sachen erzähle, die mich besonders interessieren. Also vielleicht höre ich mal aus. Ja, ich kann da mal weiterhelfen. Also ihr seht vielleicht jetzt schon diesen genannten Beispielen.

[18:42]

that we were able to identify many concrete topics that were interesting for us, or I have to exclude them now, but for the psychotherapists participating there. Before each session, we did a collection of topics and then went into depth with individual aspects and basically started an exchange of experiences. And I also found the framework of this meeting interesting, where we started, I would say, to develop a feeling for what the potential of this overlap model actually has to do with it. What kind of potential is there? And Baker-Roschi, when this whole meeting was, as well as guided by a very detailed letter that Baker-Roschi wrote, it was basically a statement from his perspective about what are relevant questions from his point of view, for example,

[20:07]

How does the human image differ in the Western psychotherapeutic practice from the human image of a practitioner? How is the human being understood? That was one thing that was still open. You don't come to a meeting on the edge of such a journey of research. Then also very concretely for a Sangha practice center, on the other hand, there are also certain psychological Evaluation possibilities are extremely important. We also have to deal with it again and again when someone comes up with questions. Is this now a question that is better in therapeutic hands or is it a question that we can handle well with the instruments of practice and so on.

[21:14]

This area of overlapping, as we say, to really gain something like clarity, what belongs where, we have now found that in this first meeting. It is an extremely complex task. I don't know now, Roshi, would you be this letter that you wrote there? It was a question to you. Yes, I'm here. My blackness is my blessing. Well, maybe I say, I'm wondering if this letter that you wrote, I was just beginning to talk about it, and I wonder if you did want to involve a group in the kinds of questions that you've been asking. I think that letter really would be a great base. Well, let's share. I have it in my printer here. Yeah. And so maybe we can just pass it out. Sure. Yeah. Well, that would give you a feeling of what territories he actually opened up from his side.

[22:23]

And then it was clear from him as an invitation This is now a new basis or a starting point or something and what the practitioners and therapists want to develop from it is open. And that's new, it just doesn't exist yet. I think we have sometimes dreamed a little bit in this meeting, dreamed in the sense of This vision has also been addressed. Maybe there can really be a new direction in psychotherapy. which is informed by the kind of teaching, is informed by this kind of human image, is created from it. So, yes, in this sense that something really new is created from the overlap. And perhaps the first phase is to disconnect your own interests, to get to know each other first, and to somehow

[23:25]

I would say that in this first meeting, in this group of eight people, it was a kind of... simply an unstructured research, but which may actually accept structures at some point, where right criteria or principles or right psychotherapeutic or practical tools are formulated, which can be helpful in the SEND practice as well as in the therapeutic practice. I would say that this is actually not so much in the very distant future for me, but we have also started to name these places, so to speak, in tissue, to discover, to exchange, where this is actually already the case, because almost all of us, let's say, in very many directions and all have been practicing for a long time, so that this

[24:40]

yes, this vision of a psychotherapy informed by practice, for me, is not so much future music, but rather, perhaps, to put it into words or to make it clear somehow, so to speak, and to see how we can do that, for example, beyond the different directions. I found it very interesting that we really had analysts, behavioural therapists, so everything across the board, and How can we put it into words? Yes, especially with this, what kind of views are there, for comprehensive views, human images, worldviews, and the second, and that is for me the, well, I don't know, that is the second level of overlap that I find so productive, what we are now, yesterday and today, what Oshie did, is that of crafts. And there it often happens to me that I feel a very great closeness.

[25:44]

A closeness? On the level of craftsmanship. Crafts. And also with the... One aspect is... I still remember how you used to talk about psychology and practice. that it is now so clear how much perception, presence, body, spaces of feeling, also, so what we have now discussed here, how much this is actually, so especially for example in trauma therapy or in body-oriented trauma therapy, absolutely the basis, the foundation, it is self-evident. And then maybe the relationship with it and where it should lead to is different.

[26:46]

But the ingredients are partly very similar. So that would be a focus for me, for example, which did not appear there at all and which I like very much and which fits here in this clan even better, is trauma therapy. Because I think that's with a special aspect. So Roshi also asked me yesterday if I wanted to do a second group and I immediately said yes, there are so many of the trauma therapists here, that would totally interest me. With that, a difficult question. I don't know, maybe I would say it again in other words. Anliegen, das ich einfach mal ausspreche. Ich glaube, da gibt es inhaltlich unglaublich viel Potenzial. Und es gibt die Leute, die das Know-how haben, um dieses Potenzial zu entwickeln.

[27:50]

And I don't know how you can proceed structurally, but I think there is an incredible amount of know-how in the room with you alone, where you can somehow do something about it. So I don't know if we can somehow do something about it or something like that, but maybe you notice something in what form or whether there is any interest at all. then some form of elaboration or meet them specifically with questions that would also have to be processed first to get in touch. So in these meetings we just did it. It should also be continued. That is the wish of this group. They would like to continue to meet. And yes, so in that sense. If you are interested in getting involved, we might first have this letter from Roshi, then you can see what new structures or new questions arise.

[28:52]

And we have a few topics at the end of the seminar. Everyone has taken on such a topic and said, I want to continue to deal with it. I want to carry on. And that is something that could Yes, also in the further circle. And for that it might need something like that, as an idea, like a room where, for example, it can be put in there. And from the people who are interested in it and want to work there somehow, like a website, I don't know how to solve it technically, but something where you can... What did the others write about it? Who cares about what topic? Where can I get in touch with someone one-on-one and say, oh, you're researching right now and you're looking for it, and I'd like to look for it too.

[29:56]

I think that's a kind of platform where that flows in, not just into these meetings, for example, of the eight of us again, that somehow... I can only say that we from Johanneshof can offer such structures. I usually do it when I notice that interest is there. So in that respect, this is also an encouragement to you, if there is interest in participating in such a digital platform or whatever, then you can contact me and then the probability that something like this has been implemented is much higher. I would like to expand on the name a little. I feel here that Sukhoi, who was interested in him and was interested in Sukhoi, probably had a different opinion as a person who is a psychologist. And I think that this position could be very interesting.

[30:56]

And I combine my research with two interviews. The first interview is about what it is like to be a human being in Austria-Hungary. And the second interview is about what it is like to be a human being in Austria-Hungary. And the third interview is about what it is like to be a human being in Austria-Hungary. And the third interview is about what it is like to be a human being in Austria-Hungary. That is, I experience something about myself and think about what I can do and what I can't do. This psychonicity is something special to me. And it is precisely in this sense that the Bedeutungsbuch is the most important thing in the entire work of art. And I have a number of books that tell me that, wherever you think that Friedrich is special, he is also very special.

[32:10]

There are two points I would like to highlight. The first, which I think is important, is the knowledge, or rather the accepted knowledge, that the world with a creative, or rather a stringent, movement is created. And from this, What you think can be true, that's not true. You create a world within your own world and you are the creator of this world and there is so much self-worth and self-sufficiency.

[33:12]

That's the impression. And in parallel to that is the word carelessness. It struck me somehow. I was very interested in it and had a little luck that it was so hard. One is the soulful, suffering, past, and the other is the present, present, past, past. And also that, I want to talk about my plans and also try to talk about them again. I glide away from the past and extrapolate the circumstances in order to erase them. And I concentrate not too much on my anxiety. And these are angels that I hear, who talk to me and talk to me.

[34:16]

There are so many of them in my practice that I have never encountered before. And that would be my point of view. And maybe it's worth it. I had this time, or rather these days, a very essential realization for me, that actually these crafts, the physical perception and observation are forms of self-love. because it is a total focus and attention to myself.

[35:25]

And I have always found on the intellectual level that love is not an emotion, but it is a deep form of coming into resonance with oneself and others. And I am a relationship therapist. And that is also the Western Christian thought. Love your neighbor as yourself. But the prerequisite to love others is self-love. This time I have this overlap. Buddhism is for me pure training in self-love. It really empowers me to strengthen this love for others. I would be interested in a few words, whether this sentence would be what you meant, in what form you would also say it.

[36:49]

She said, she told me that S2 There are two points of reference. On the one hand, there is the question of how much the Buddhist practice and the psychic-philosophical practice influenced him, but also roughly how much he influenced the Buddhist practice. First of all, I would like to point out more things that inform the Buddhist practice, the psychotherapeutic practice. A very short one on abstinence and compassion, I think I tried a little to get into the subject. A lot of very personal reports that simply have to do with the quality of the encounter and which room opens up there, for example,

[37:59]

In the first moment, the whole story is actually there. And I can perceive it in any way. And the rest is then development, I would say, after today's panel. For example, I find that an interesting picture. One topic was also simply the construct. We called it in the meeting back then the construct consciousness. The knowledge that consciousness is a construct. And actually similar to how you just formulated it. So they had some concepts that we know from Belkaroshi's teaching, for example, the four functions of the self. But first of all, to understand the self as a function. or to understand consciousness as something constructed. There were then some reports of how individual therapeutic concepts like these are usually used as tools in their therapeutic sessions.

[39:13]

One more example, if you take the functions of the self, and one is continuity, coherence, separation, or distinction and connection, is something like this, you can use your sense, This is something different than a sense of I or myself. You can shift a sense of location. For example, what I do a lot is that I look at how it is when I drive down with the wheelchair and what changes in the encounter and in the situation. But these are skills that are out of practice. Although I don't know if therapists, for example, who don't necessarily have this practice, I think some of them develop it too, because it's just blood-related. I think you can look at it very roughly. We have been able to identify some basic attitudes, therapeutic basic attitudes, like

[40:21]

acceptance, about the research on what compassion actually is, as well as the concept of compassion as a basis itself, through the way compassion is understood, for example, in Buddhism, which we also found out is quite different than it is understood in Western culture at all, namely with this aspect of the non-dual. The aspect of the non-dual is missing from the Buddhist understanding. And so we changed a few words a little bit. What does it mean? I don't know if we talked about it, but it's such a great potential. What does it mean to be free or freedom as we normally use it? And what does the Buddhist practice add to such words that we already use anyway, that get a whole new power of view, so to speak? But wouldn't you say that true compassion is always non-dual?

[41:32]

It may be, but that's our understanding. It's a bit different. Because in the moment when you feel part of it, you are one. It's non-dual. You go into the field where you want to think. Yes, you can talk about it well. These are exactly the points. Otherwise it remains a concept. Yes, well, yes. But for example, I could then look there, we did things like that. How can I just bring this, for example, this examination now into my psychotherapeutic practice, because this is an incredible chance to practice. So I think this is my best place to practice, yes, or my lightest place. Yes, yes. And how can I praise this in my everyday work? Well, it depends.

[42:32]

Yes, but are there differences? No, I'm not trying to... Yes. Yes. I have something to say. I was very interested in this. In the lectures I found a lot of parallels found, for example, in the systemically constructivist thought. In psychotherapy there are very strong Buddhist roots, so psychotherapy finds a continual awareness and so on and so forth, that is also a point of wariness. Then I say superficially once quite close. And the understanding seems to be the same. What fascinates me and what I would like to understand is the relationship with Marciana, this intergalactic conspiration that takes place there, where experience and

[43:44]

Yes, that's right. If I don't think back, this is the essential thing for me too. The explanation of systemic thinking is for me a bridge for my life. That's constructivist. I am the boss of my life, not me personally, but in this network. And that started with me, with my work with Bates, Watzlawick and Virginia Satie. And with her, the embodiment came to me. And I find that now in almost every sentence by Dirk Beter. I find that even deeply formulated.

[44:49]

to the actual roots of what fascinated me at that time and what actually transformed my life and also my work. I could now say several points. Once this paradigm has changed, it has affected me personally, not only in my life, but it has affected me since then. And then I have the best formulation in Buddhism for all this, for the unity of body and mind, for the connection, for the continuity and non-continuity. Because what concerns me most now is how can I the imperfection, the non-dual tool, the language, for example, is integrated into the duality.

[46:00]

There can be no perfection, that excludes the imperfection. So we have to, with the constructions of duality, of our clients, we have to... So, this is interesting to me. And then I think, it doesn't exist. You can't say that compassion is always announced, so to speak. Compassion is unity thinking, is non-verbal thinking or non-verbal action. You can't say that, because there is also the identification that destroys the whole life. Or when relationships are destroyed. Yes, but I would call that compassion.

[47:01]

Yes, because that makes sense. First of all, you have to distinguish it. And because of Buddhism, we have a lot of language. Yes, handicrafts. This distinction. And now it is important, this seemingly to use the illusions. And this is actually our work in psychotherapy and with ourselves. I see it as one thing. So to use it experimentally, that is to say practically. Also, ich kann immer weiterreden. Also, es hat mich total beeinflusst, mein ganzes Leben und meine ganze Arbeit, die ich jetzt entbildet habe, wo ich jetzt, die ich jetzt nennen würde, experimentelle Verkörperungsarbeit.

[48:09]

And I think we are also ready to consider how this can be implemented. I see people, especially the group of eight and more, and I would be more careful to imagine how this can be implemented. Because, for example, what you said is linked to a topic that I always refute, which is the absolute and relative truth. And there is no evaluation to bring into it. And this pulse, especially the mobility, or to emphasize the permeability. So that would be just another suggestion from me, where I would like to hear something.

[49:50]

I just thought of one more thing about this all-is-activity. And on the one hand it is somehow a totally all-twisting, big thing, and at the same time there is a feeling that if I don't somehow in me, even before I had made it aware of it, I couldn't have done psychotherapy. I mean, it doesn't work at all. Because that's the basis of it, because it's not about what happened 100 years ago, or 30, or 50, or 60 years ago in my life, but it's about about what I've been doing all this time, and what kind of thing I'm building again and again. There's a point where my psychotherapeutic practice and, of course, my Buddhist practice inform me. That would be the other direction, that it has sunk into me in a certain way, through my work, that it can only be like that. If you do decide to get together and set this in some way, I think I should not be at the first meeting.

[51:18]

So a little influence is possible. Well, if it's possible, I'd like to have successive meetings. Yeah, in any case, it's up to you. I'm not quite in the thing I just said. If you decide to discuss it somewhere, and I can cure it sometime, I don't know, I know that Paul has to read for the airport in six minutes. I have seven minutes to say something. We're going to have to make final decisions now, but I'd like the process to start if you want so.

[52:39]

Yes, we don't have to make a decisive decision now, but I would like to start this process now. Maybe I can say one more thing. Not as a practicing therapist, but as a practicing psychic. Yes, so I can just say, my life is, yes, I ended up more or less in the monastery or in the Zen center right after my parents' house. And I can't imagine my Zen practice without a therapeutic accompaniment. And that's just... Because this therapeutic accompaniment, where I was repeatedly helped, very concretely.

[54:08]

Most of you may not be there, but I briefly talked about it in the last seminar and used a picture of what it's like when the Dhamma rain falls on the personal landscape or on the landscape of one's own lived life. And that there are always these cross-sectional points where, whether these are traumatic, stored experiences or simply just habitual patterns or something like that, where these dharma-talkers really fall into something concrete, into flesh and blood, into something personal. And I was lucky to have worked with someone for a long time, who himself is also a long-time student of Belkaroshi. And in this respect, I always managed to re-feel every psychological construct that emerged.

[55:10]

For me, it was always like the energies that flowed there, whether they are my suffering energies, my emotional suffering energies or so. where I worked on a certain level with the RAVI, with whom I worked therapeutically, who recognized her in her emotional quality of suffering. And then it helped me to feel back in the ways of practice. For a moment, I recognized biographically, yes, that's the way it is now. And that helps sometimes. Yes, I can understand that. And then he gave me biographical assistance. You already know that from your dad, right? Yes, I already know that from my dad. And he said, he sometimes showed me the psychological attitude, where he says, you feel left out now, don't you?

[56:16]

Yes, I feel left out now. And then to take this experience in your biographical presence, to deconstruct it, are you really left out? Maybe not. Good. And then embed it again and give it a new direction and reconstruct it again. There I have to say, So a dynamic was created for me personally in this field of overlap, of knowing about psychological dynamics and then integrating them in my case. For me it is the, I don't want to say it's worth it, but in my life it is the case that I would call the greater dynamic a dharmic dynamic. And I'm just a case example for myself of, thank you that this overlap exists. I don't know if there are any questions or comments from you.

[57:18]

I don't have it super urgent. So, it really doesn't look like helping you in a conference to, I like to say, design, to create a framework where all that is possible, what you have. And what I imagine, we have, I have with colleagues, we have a, the name is Metallurgy Conference created. Where there is a beautiful breath between the whole group and no aspects of the topic. Where it really always breathes in and out. There's a few people here who are willing to help.

[58:28]

For me, this is part of the practice. My inner concern is that we accept it practically as a recognition, that, just as Nicole describes it, the formed self and the practice with the formed self are an important part of the practice, at least for us here in the West. And I think we can still learn a lot more about how this works. And the first step is simply that this is not a secret that you keep to yourself, but that you can share it with each other, that there are such growth aspects. And that actually happens. So I think we do that too. And I perceive it as a great liberation not to have to make this separation.

[59:47]

This is Buddhism and this is therapy. I did therapy and it helped me a lot and also helped me get out of the way of the practice. But that doesn't stop. Things that appear from the past now, but which I embrace. I don't want to wipe them away. With this acceptance, welcome, and yes, that's the sweetness of what Siegfried talked about. die uns für unser Leben, glaube ich, auch wichtig ist. Meine Rede geht eigentlich nur darum, dass ich ihm Aufnahme biete. Es gibt ein paar Joker-Karten. Es werden auch andere aufgeben, aber es ist eigentlich unüblich damit, wenn dieses Thema, das im Wirt bleibt, für die Leute und sonstige Spezialisten, weil wir haben alle eine...

[60:50]

I would like to thank Christine for what she said today. I also congratulate her for those who are interested. And because I didn't like this excursion so much, because I think it's such a... an important aspect of the practice that I have learned so far, at least as much as possible. I also practice it in such a way that I take it with me, but I would be very happy to take it with me for this aspect. I can practice it in such a way that it is a reference or that I am interested in it. That it is also, so to speak, already in the composition, a coincidence of the two fields.

[62:03]

I have a very sincere idea of ​​it. The people are always very nice, with educational and creative work, as a kind of cognitive space, something I would like to ask you to give us your opinion on this. I would like to ask you to give us your opinion on this. We'll do what we can.

[63:18]

But a metallurgic conference, as you understand, would integrate all of them. It's certainly not about two groups of fields or something like that. There are different topics. You don't have to... Mhm. And I wonder if, after 20 years, I am still open to the fact that I was born and raised in a place like this, where I can be the decision-maker.

[64:29]

So, I think that so much of what is happening in Buddhism now is actually But the point of the time is now. What you can rely on is that the opposition to spirituality is now so high that you can see that the world is going to collapse.

[65:17]

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