Well, sentient beings, non-sentient beings, non-sentient beings are continuously, uninterruptedly expounding the Dharma. The non-sentient walls, tiles, streams and mountains and rivers are continuously expounding the Dharma. How does the non-sentient expound the Dharma? Well, is this bell a non-sentient being? What's the difference between a sentient being and a non-sentient being? We say sentient being perceives through senses. has sensory perception and feelings. And the non-sentient doesn't seem to have those qualities.

[01:07]

So this is physically so, objectively so. But subjectively, all beings are sentient. Subjectively, all beings are sentient beings. Every object, there are no objects. Objectively, everything is an object. Subjectively, everything is a subject. So we can look at a bell and we can say, that's an object. But according to its use, it's a subject. So we don't approach the bell from the point of view of an object. We always approach it from the point of view of a subject. It's a being. It has a subjective... It doesn't have a personality because it's not a person.

[02:10]

But it has its own persona. It's a kind of person. little bell person. Do you know how these bells are made? They're made, they're not cast. It's not a cast bell. That bell up there is cast. But this bell is not cast. It's made out of a sheet of bronze. And, yes? Perhaps as you're talking I could have people pass it around. I think we've all seen the bell, though. Well, but as you're talking about it, what's evoked is actually more the spirit of it, I think. Fine. Well, the bell is pounded, and then there are a number of people around the sides

[03:30]

And as the bell is being pounded, they push up the sides. So it's one piece of metal with no seam. So all this effort goes into making this instrument. Yes? What kind of noise does it make when it's being pounded? It's the sound of a hammer on metal. It's the sound of the Dharma. the sound of the dharma. So the sound of the dharma continues to be played into this bell. This is all dharma work. That's why it has all those little dents in it. Nowadays, they make the bells with seams. And they put the pounding in to make it look like the old bell. So you can buy bells very cheaply to look like the old bells.

[04:37]

But a good old bell has this kind of character. And this is a very nice bell. We used to have a... We still do, actually. One that's not quite as nice as this. And this nice bell appeared. When Alan was there, they had the men's, first men's practice period at Rinsow Inn. And suddenly this bell appeared, and Hoichi said, it goes to Berkeley. Who needs it? Who needs it, yeah. So they put it on the plane in a blanket and carried it over. And it's a wonderful bell. That one, the big key. What is the purpose of a bell like this?

[05:48]

There are several purposes. One, is to keep time. Another is, well, maybe these are two. One is to keep time. The other, and most important one, is to bring forth the voice of the Dharma. That's the main reason for the bell. We can bow without the bell. we can chant the sutra without the bell. We don't need the bell to do that. But the bell adds inspiration. So the voice of the bell is to create the sound of the Dharma. So when we approach the bell, what do we have in our mind?

[06:50]

What are we trying to do? Keep time? We don't need that bell to keep time. The main purpose of the bell is to bring forth the voice of the Dharma, and to have a settled feeling, an inspirational feeling, and to attune our mind, attune our body and mind. bring it back to our inmost feelings. A beautiful sound, what is a beautiful sound? Beauty touches our deepest place. So a beautiful sound is a sound which touches us most deeply. So when we sound the bell, we should always try to bring forth the sound that touches us most deeply.

[07:58]

Every time we have the opportunity to do that. That's what it is. It's allowing us the opportunity to bring forth that sound which touches us most deeply. And if we only use it, mindlessly to keep time, then it becomes noise. A person who can bring forth that sound can do it on a garbage can lid. A person that doesn't have that, is not aware of doing that, can make the bell sound like a garbage can lid. So the bell is bronze, which is a mixture of copper and nickel, or copper and zinc, copper and tin.

[09:03]

And the beater is a combination of wood and leather. When you think about these elements, where they all come from, The beater is wood, which comes from a tree, which grows out of the earth and is nurtured by the sun and the rain and the elements, and then it's cut down by somebody, and then the pieces are dried and cut up and used for various things. And this piece came to me from a woodworker that I know who gave it to me because the bell didn't come with a beater. And then I had the beater made. I just had to decide how big it was going to be. And so this piece of wood came. We no longer call it a tree. We call it wood once it's no longer a tree.

[10:07]

This piece of wood came to us in this way and came to be participating in this act. And then we covered it with a piece of leather. The leather comes from what we call a steer, I believe. And then it's the skin of the steer. So we no longer call it steer, we call it leather. And then these pieces are put together to come together and participate in bringing forth this sound from this bronze bell. So there's animal, mineral, and vegetable and human elements which are all contributing to doing this.

[11:16]

So, the beater comes together with the bell. The beater has weight and the bell has symmetry and emptiness, hollow. So we have something solid coming together with something sort of hollow. It's like the mokugyo. We have a beater which has a solid end and it's coming together with that fish. Believe it or not, that's a fish. which is hollow, to make a sound. You know, when a drummer, if you've ever watched Indian drummers, you know, they have these nice drums, and then they use their fingers, and they use their, and they, they're making love to the drum, you know? They're interacting with the drum, and using all kinds of different weights of their finger.

[12:29]

Little weight, big weight, You know, each finger has a different weight and force, but they never hit the drum. They play the drum, and the drum plays back. They bring the life out of the drum, and the drum circulates life within the player so that the life comes out of the drum and everybody enjoys it. Because what's happening is life being produced and animating. It's the same with the bell. So how does the weight of that bell meet, the weight of the beater meet the bell to produce the voice of the bell? Not just a sound, but the bell has a voice. So how do you find the voice of the bell? In China, when we were in China, they have big drums, 10 feet high.

[13:38]

But the buildings are enormous, caverns, they're like warehouses, small warehouse, and high ceilings and all open. So when they hit the drum real hard and they hit the gongs real hard, it produces a wonderful inspirational sound. But that's because there's so much space. But in a small space, if you did that here, you'd drive everybody out the doors. So we have to make a sound that's appropriate to the space. So the crux of it is, how does that beater come together with the bell to produce the voice of the bell without hitting? I remember Suzuki Roshi talking about the Mukugyo and saying, you have to be careful otherwise it will have a heart attack.

[14:49]

Don't hit it too hard or it will have a heart attack. Mukugyo is the same thing. How do you bounce off of them? How do you bring out a sound? the sound, the voice of the mokugyo. So it goes, boom, boom, boom, or bang, bang, bang, or peck, peck, peck, or what's the voice, you know? It's a heartbeat. Boom, boom, [...] boom. Sometimes the heartbeat is boom, boom, boom. Sometimes it's boom, boom, boom. But it's never bang, bang, bang. You know, sometimes people in the past, they don't do it nowadays, but It's like pounding nails, you know? That's not music. We don't want a nail that would cook you to the floor.

[15:51]

We just want to bring out the voice. So there's a hollow voice, you know? And you have to find it. Where is the best place? Oh, here, here. So you concentrate on... And then if you hit it too hard, It's not so good. Did I hit it too soft? So, if you hit it too soft, it's flaccid. If you hit it too hard, it's intrusive. So, in order to find the voice, you have to hit it softly, and then you have to hit it hard. And then, from the hard point, you come down to the middle. And from the soft point, you come up to the middle. And that's where you find the voice. right in the middle between too hard and too soft. So you have to kind of experiment. What's too hard? What's too soft? And where's the middle? And then find that every time. Every time you sound the bell, you look for that place where the voice of the bell comes forth without any strain or without any forcing.

[17:02]

And it produces a beautiful sound. And the beautiful sound is when you let the vibrations free from the bell. And you don't have any feeling of restraint. And even if it's not a big sound, that sound will penetrate through all the chanting. You don't have to hit it hard to penetrate through all the chanting. If it's accurate and right on, then it will penetrate because the vibrations. There's a straight vibration, which is bong, which doesn't have any color. But if you let the beadery lay on the bell in the right way, then the vibrations go wow, wow, wow, and you can feel the overtones filling the room. And you don't hear the sound of the beater hitting the bell.

[18:08]

Every time you play the bell, you should try to eliminate the sound, as much as possible, of the beater meeting the bell, so that only the voice of the bell comes forth, and not the sound of bang. So, sometimes the sound of the beater hitting the bell is bigger than the voice of the bell. You want the voice of the bell to be bigger than the sound of the beater hitting the bell. So you have to lay the bell, not hit, you know. Loose. Looseness. If you hold something tight, you hold the sound in. When you want to dampen the sound, you hold tight. When you want the sound to come out, you're loose. When you do the kiyosaku, when I walk around with the kiyosaku, I don't hold the kiyosaku. I just let it loose. Like that.

[19:14]

And when at the end, I catch it. When it hits you, that's when I catch it. So it's, boom. And then the sound comes out, bang. But if I hold it, it's a thuck. Because I'm stopping the sound with my, holding on to the stick. It's exactly the same with a bell. So, when you use the beater, on the small bell, you just let it go. Let the weight of the beater do the work, instead of you doing the work. You're guiding. You're just part of the process. You're just one element in the process. There's the bell, the beater, and you. And you are just the brains and the spirit. And let the weight do the work. It's exactly the same as Aikido. You let the weight of the activity do the work.

[20:18]

So, This is how we should do all of our work. Instead of forcing and trying to make something happen, we allow something to happen. We allow the world to work. That's so easy. But once you do it, it's pretty easy. When you allow yourself to do it. It's hard for us to allow ourselves to do it because we want to do something. So this is called egolessness. When we just allow things to happen. When we find ourselves as our place in any situation. How do we find our place in any situation? When we let go of wanting to force things or wanting to be the thing, then we can create a harmonious sound wherever we are.

[21:22]

We play our part, but we have to know what our part is. Not too strong, not too weak. So, after all that, I'm not going to demonstrate the bell for you, because if I don't make a good sound, I'll be embarrassed. What? Yeah, it would be terrible for my ego. I did that one on purpose. Yeah, Gail? Can you talk about how we do that with our voice also? Chanting and escopio? Well, the best way to do that with your voice is to listen to all the other voices. When you're really listening to all the other voices, then you automatically

[22:32]

stay in tune, and brings forth a freedom of expression. When I don't listen, I get off. When I do listen, I stay on. If I'm only listening to myself, I get off, and it makes it harder. But if I listen to really You know, when I listen to everyone, and then I just disappear. And my voice just naturally comes out very easily. Rebecca? You know, the sounder we have now, the sounder we have now is the second coating. Of leather? Yes. I have the piece of the old leather.

[23:37]

I didn't know what to do with it, but it's like thinner than paper. It has been beaten so many times. Inside, and some of you I know have run into this, there are some dead spots because there was wood. The only way you could figure of filling it in was with putty. So I think a lot of us know we're not in it. But I keep thinking someday I should just bring that all with me soon. Yeah, we'll frame it and put it on the divider there. I just was remembering listening to you about when I was first learning to play the small bell and it's not a very forgiving bell, that one.

[24:41]

And I just couldn't... I couldn't get it to sound right. And I went to you in Doshan and I said, I have tried and tried and I want to love that bell and I'm trying to love that bell but I cannot love that bell. And you looked at me and you said, You don't have to love it, you just have to get to know it. Well, the bell is our teacher. The inanimate objects are our teachers. The whole universe is our teacher. So, learning how to play this thing, we learn how to play ourself. So it's a two-way thing. It goes both ways. Gary? Do you think some objects come forth, or it seems to me that some objects come forth to me, like pots on the stove.

[25:50]

If I see, sometimes I'll walk into a kitchen and I'll just see a pot cooking away, and I'll be Depends on what's in the pot. Well, you know, in the Tenzo Kyokun, Dogen talks about the pots and pans, you know, some pots and pans belong down below, some in the middle, some up high, you know, and how do you relate to all these things, how to relate to all the things around us? And it's really all the same, you know, relating to the bell, The bells is kind of the art of sound, and the pots and pans also have sound.

[26:57]

we can relate to them through sound. How do you put something down? You know, what's the sound of putting something down? We really go by sound, you know, as well as sight, but the sound of picking things up, the sound of putting them down, the sound of moving them, the sound of a chair, it indicates how we move with things. It's very important to listen to the way we pick things up and put them down. And the way we move with them. The way we open a door and close it. What's the sound? What's the sound of turning the handle? Because those sounds affect us. all the sounds we make affect us. So do we do something quietly or do we do something noisily or do we do something mindlessly?

[28:05]

If we listen to all the sounds we make mindfully, like if you turn the door handle, it's a mechanical device and you can make it squeal or you can make it comfortable. You can hear the tumblers falling. When you unlock the door and you turn the key and listen, you can hear the tumblers. And do you want them to move nicely or do you want them to just kind of scrunch against each other? We should be mindful of that, of how we move things and the sound that we make. Because the world is screaming, the sound of things.

[29:07]

We can make the sounds around us scream or we can make them feel smooth. You and I have talked several times about about teaching, because I'm a teacher also, and the dilemmas of the teacher. And the whole time you've been talking about the bell, I found myself hearing it as the way the teacher needs to touch the student so that the voice of the true Buddha nature of the student comes out. And that it's not a hit, that you want something else to happen. And everything you've said works with that analogy, with one exception. So there's this lovely air of curiosity that you don't go at it with, I know what to do. It's like you're listening all the time. And I know that that helps me as a teacher to be in that same relationship. And this is very helpful to think of my students as bells that I'm trying to ring.

[30:09]

But they have the option of experiencing me as hitting, even if that's not... In other words, I can miss. Just as you didn't want to demonstrate on the bell. I think even an enormously skillful teacher can miss. The bell that we ring has the option of two legs that can walk away. So I'm wondering how to handle, how to think of myself and my teaching when I'm this. And when the bell needs to say, I want someone else to sound me because I don't think I found my true sound there. What do I do? From the point of view of you or the bell? It's all one thing that's happening. Well, you have to be able to accept what you miss. That's okay, because you accept it in everybody else.

[31:11]

If you don't accept it in everybody else, then you can't accept it in yourself. But the fact that you accept it in everyone else means that you can accept it in yourself. So we have to be able to, you know, I will sound the bell and sometimes I don't do it so well, but I have to accept that too, because that will happen. I don't always, you know, play my best. So we accept it, And I've gotten there. The point is we have to... But I need to hear it. I need to know when I've missed, right? Yes. And one thing I didn't say is the other part is you have to have a conception of what you want to hear. You can't just... You may be... It's good to listen to the voice of the bell. You have to do that to find out what it... You also have to have a conception. And the conception comes from, of course, the sound of the bell, but the conception is, how can I bring out my deepest feeling with the bell?

[32:21]

That's your conception. And then the bell has its own voice, but the bell See, the bell has the ability to respond to you. So what is your deepest wish for the bell? That's the other piece for me. It's when I feel that I understand my deepest wish for this bell and find that something is getting in the way of my actually being the one that can strike it. That's good. The question is, can I open my hands and send them happily to someone else who can strike it more skillfully? Yes. Oh, absolutely. You know, this is the history of teaching in China. The teachers say, you know, like, Guishan sent, went to Tozan, asked this question about the sentient beings, non-sentient beings preaching the Dharma.

[33:27]

Guishan gave Tozan his response, but he said, you should go see Yunyan, because he's the one that can really help you. Alan? I hesitate to bring this up or to make trouble. Evidently, I didn't hesitate enough. But, you know, there's this posits that all of this non-sentient being speaking Dharma is an accretion to, it's not in the Pali Sutras. And I don't think it is. I mean, once I read these pieces and started looking around, you know, it's not in the Buddha's basic teachings.

[34:32]

And in a way, I think that's maybe why Guishan sent Tozan way, who knows. But, and it also posits that there's some, there's some dangers in the danger of seeing a kind of equivalency of sentient and non-sentient beings distortions of summarizing of imperial sin. That's the argument. But the essential thing that's interesting is, is it in, and I'm not contradicting this, is it in the Dharma as the Buddha taught it, or is it in our understanding as it's evolved? Well, two things.

[35:37]

One is that Anything can be perverted. Anything, any teaching can be perverted. So, the other thing is that to think that the Pali Sutras contain all of what Buddha said is, I doubt if that's true. That anybody knows what Buddha said, I doubt if that's true. that the Mahayana sutras are also claimed to be as valid as the Pali sutras is also a good possibility, and that what is open to reason is important. So the sutras only give you an indication. they point to something. Your actual experience and your ability to discern yourself, given the foundation of the Dharma as it's taught, is more important than just following the sutras.

[36:55]

So, the sutras were all written 400 years, at least 400 years after Buddha died. So oral traditions are somewhat accurate, somewhat distorted. So I think that to try and find out what is the original Buddhism has proved to be impossible. So we have to go with reasoning. And we also have to go with, you know, to say that sentient beings and insentient beings share sentiency is a way of speaking. If you take all that literally and try to figure it out scientifically, that's one way you can do that. The Dharma is not a scientific thing, it's subjective and it's intuitive.

[38:16]

So we're speaking from a subjective intuitive platform, not a factual So when you try to prove facts, when you try to prove that kind of understanding through facts, it doesn't work. It's like, who said what? Who cares? The important part is the myth, not the facts, because the myth carries the meaning. The facts are just facts. What's made up is the most important part to me. the door.

[39:20]

Now, for me, I tend to like things neat and orderly and relatively quiet. So the idea of treating a pair of shoes as essentially being something alive, I wouldn't drop them from the shoe rack onto the porch and then put them on. Laying them down there, it feels right to me. So I tend to get judgmental when I see people drop them down, what I perceive as mindlessly or without mindfulness. And to lend an ear to Alan's comment, I wonder what about the projections that we have onto things, that if we sort of hold something as precious as life, as real or as sentient, that we naturally treat it differently, but is that That's precepts.

[40:55]

That's the true precepts, is not following the rules. But what is the, within the precept, how do you actually act? And sometimes, it's not acting in a straight line. It's using the precept as a sounding board You go this way and you go that way, and you meet life and you're always working with it. So there's nothing set. There's no one right way to act. There are right ways to act, but it's... is wrong or better than ours, but there's still this sense of what we've inherited.

[41:56]

And I guess the proof is in the pudding. It's persistent, and there's support in the practice. The lineage is continuing, and we do the best we can. I agree with you that we should put our shoes down and treat them respectfully, with that kind of attitude with everything. I don't think you can make a mistake that way. Unless you become obsessive or anal, as they say. I keep thinking of the bell maker and that process. They're losing it. They're losing it. They are losing it.

[42:59]

Oh, sure. But, but, it isn't inanimate. If you find the sound in that. No, no. It's not inanimate. No. There's nothing that's inanimate. Everything is animated. Yeah. And, and, uh, so, what, and if you, I really do think about discovering the sound of the The bell makers, the sad, the hurt. It's in there. Oh yeah, the intention is all there. The intention is there in the bell, absolutely. Just like when Tenzo makes our lunch, the intention is there, and what we eat is the intention, along with the food. The food is a vehicle for the intention, and that all works together. We were going to Japan in September, and I asked Taiken-san, well, you know, it would be nice to visit a bell maker, you know, to see how their shop is, what they do.

[44:12]

He said, oh, very hard now, you know, there's so very few people doing that, you know, it's like, yeah, they're losing all that stuff. That's right. Yeah. I agree.

[45:13]

Thank you for your talk. It reminds me of something which has attracted me for a long time. In Jewish Hasidism, there's the myth of Creation is the Godhead breaks into billions and billions of pieces divine sparks and each and every object has a divine spark. how I rattle my pens, how I drop my pencils, how... It's hard. I mean, it's easy here in a way. It's hard to find the voice of the bell when everything's quiet.

[46:22]

All this time to... But I'm asking, do you have any advice for how to keep this in mind with as many things that we come in contact with? Well, I don't give advice, but... But, you know, working in the kitchen is the best place, you know, because you're always putting things down, putting pots and pans down, picking them up, stirring things, and just listen to the sounds. You know, another thing you can do, I think about this, when I make a sandwich, sandwich, you get a plate and then you get some bread and you have to take it maybe out of the refrigerator, you open the door and you take it out and you put it on the table and you open the package and you undo the twisty and then you take the bread out and then you take a knife and you cut it and you maybe put it into the toaster and then you press down the toaster and then you go and you get the butter and then you take off the lid and then you get a knife and all these, you know, maybe a hundred movements

[47:45]

into making a sandwich, you know, but we just don't think about it. There's this enormous process going on which we just take for granted, but if you actually are mindful of all the moves and listen to all the sounds you make while you're doing that, you're creating a little symphony, you know, a little composition that's quite wonderful. which you only notice usually when you smoke grass. You don't have to do that. Just pay attention. Alan? Just the other side of what I was saying, I actually just wanted to hear what you say. The other side is, in fact, you just brought it up in two different places. One is mindfulness. And it implies connection.

[48:52]

And the other is precepts, which are also very early teachings, which are all about relationships, both to people and to objects. And that's what they left out. They never talk about the precepts in these critical Buddhism documents. But the precepts are, there's so many precepts about so I think you brought that out, and yet there is some challenge for us there. I think what Ross was saying about the mind of being judgmental, which arises from our observance of people. Right, well the challenge is always there. So critical Buddhism is good, even though I'm not particularly interested in it, but I think it's good and it's important, and we should all be critical of Buddhism in our own way, and that keeps us from being complacent, so that's important.

[50:08]

We should not be complacent about Buddhism. As Suzuki Roshi said, Buddhism is not something you keep in a drawer and then when you want it, you take it out of the drawer and there it is. It's something that is constantly being created through a practice. And there are these guidelines of what is Buddhism, but they're not... that's dead Buddhism. Living Buddhism is how you actually live your life given all the aspects. That reminds me and brings it back to you were speaking before about that you do have to have some, what did you say, someone's conception what you're doing, what your intent is. And so you have to, I guess, think about it in some way, but at some point you also... It's both. I mean, could you just talk about that one thing? Yeah, you have to have a conception, you have to know where you're going with it. But at the same time, that's your turning the thing.

[51:10]

And you also have to be open so that the thing is turning you. So, you turn it, and this is the secret of practice. you turn it and it turns you, and knowing how to do that combination. If you're only turning things, then you're imposing your will on, in this case, the bell, and then it sounds like noise. But the bell's also telling you what it wants, so you have to listen to what it wants, and then there's no you and no bell. Suzuki Roshi said, when I hit you with my stick, there's no you, there's no me, and there's no stick. Boom. Everything disappears. So when this is happening well, there's no you, no bell, and just the sound. No sound, but it's the no sound, which is the big sound. OK.

[52:12]

Yeah, OK. Just one point. When we watch children, very young children, they discover that they will work with materials and they will do this process that we talk about of bringing what we call inanimate objects to life. Oh yes, sure. Well that's, you know, we can't be childish, but we can be childlike. There are a number of people in the room that are psychotherapists. Well, our problem is our treasure. Without a problem there's no practice. So people, you know, When we stop trying to eliminate our problem, then practice starts.

[53:41]

Is that what you meant? Yeah, but I really said that, but also that when we hit, when we strike the bell or whatever the language is, we will make terrible sounds. Oh, yeah. Does that, in fact, increase the range of your relationships? Oh, absolutely. Those terrible sounds are necessary. Yeah, that's what I mean. Without the bad sounds, you can't tell what the good ones are. I mean, you could, but, you know, that's how we learn. We learn by, you know, we're not so good and then we get better. So, you know, I used to judge people a lot on their ability to do all this, but I don't do that judgment. As a matter of fact, I hardly ever say anything anymore. But sometimes I just say it all at once today.

[54:45]

Speak into the microphone. But of course, this is called learning. You can't learn unless you... But the main thing is, if you're learning, that's great. But if you just stop there, it's not so good. No good. If you just stop trying to find it, then it's not good. And just settle for something. does not practice. But you just keep going ahead. Do it as long as you're looking for it. That's why you have to have the conception. As long as you know what you're looking for, you do it this way, you do it that way, no one can criticize you. Not necessarily.

[56:01]

How not necessarily? Yeah, well not necessarily in that, you know, once we find that, now I think you're right, we shouldn't be attached to that, that's correct, because if you try and always do the same thing then nothing ever comes up to it. And you can't repeat the same thing more than once. I mean, you can't repeat it. Nothing can be repeated. So, in that sense, we shouldn't be attached to the sound we make because the next time is totally different. Yeah, you're right. Can I tell another story? This is such a great story. Norman tells this story. I don't know if you're going to remember this or not, but he says that when Norman Fisher was first learning at the old Berkley Zen Center to be a Don, and that it was his first time to actually do the bells for service, and so he thought that he should go with the flow and he should intuit it.

[57:13]

At the end of service he turned to me and said, what was that? He said, well, I was just trying to I didn't want to think about it and you turned to him and you said, think about it. We'll end on that note. Think about it.

[57:38]

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