In the early days, the U.S. Army used to have two lectures during fishing, one in the morning and one in the evening, sometimes in the afternoon. In the evening one, everybody was always falling asleep. I used to really dislike the evening lectures, but I laugh at the answer not to give them. I used to give them in the morning instead, when we were out in the water. So, I hope it's going to be okay. But, I had planned to continue with the Krakatoa Genshu, but someone suggested that maybe we needed to talk some. maybe some conversation about person death or anxiety and how are you feeling about your feelings about what happened to me.

[01:21]

So is that a good idea? Somebody snored over somewhere over there And the transition of our, you know, Alan and Mailey received transition and it was a very good explanation of their empowerment. And we're still here and we're still the future and we're all related to each other. I've always thought of myself as immortal.

[02:50]

When I was young, You know, like a teenager. I have to wait for that to pass. It's gonna land. When I was a teenager, people would ask me my age, and they couldn't believe, you know, how old I was. So, I think I'm kind of a late bloomer, in a sense. And I always was kind of youthful. I didn't have a cavity until I was 40.

[03:52]

And I never had anything wrong with me. And I could eat anything. you know, without gaining weight, until I was about 50. You know, and I always had energy and so, and I always felt that there was, I had a good fairy, you know, that was always guiding me and helping me. Something like that, you know. some good spirit that was always driving me in hell again. And no matter what kind of problem or situation I get into, there was always a way to deal with it, a way out. I was snagged at safety. And I just always felt that that was there and trusted it. So I've always been an optimistic kind, type, faith type, actually.

[04:57]

you know, the faith type and the dhamma type, I'm definitely the faith type. I've never had any real doubts about things, you know. The only thing I've ever had doubts about is myself. You know, like, can I do this? When it came to practice, I never had any doubts about practice. I only had doubts about, can I do this? Those were my only doubts. When I get sick or when something happens to me, I just see it as being sick. I don't see it as even something life-threatening like this. I have to say, I never felt it as life-threatening, even though I know that it is. But then I have to think, when I go out on the road, that's life-threatening. Every moment is life-threatening. you know?

[05:59]

And so, somehow I just have that perspective. There are certain things I'm afraid of, you know? Verdeville and pines. And if I have, if my breathing isn't good, that scares me. I fear suffocation. So I remember having anxiety up to about 25. But then from then until now I never had any. Maybe 35. Maybe as soon as I started practicing I just never had it anymore. So sometimes it's hard for me to relate to people when I did have this anxiety attack.

[07:10]

Just before I went to Chapel Hill, I mentioned that for about four or five days. And then I realized, or at least I think it was triggered by the heart thing. But what that did was give me a lot of sympathy for people's anxiety. I revisited the old anxieties that I used to have when I went in my 20s. And now when I see people sometimes I say, do you have any anxiety? And they tell me about all their anxiety. So, and I can relate to it much better. And also, having this problem, I can relate to people. You know, I remember when I was We used to say, what all people talk about is their operations. Consider that by weather and everything. And at the end of the sea, you know... In the 50s and 60s, there's this commonality of operations.

[08:14]

But I never thought that I'd be talking about mine to so many people. But I also share, you know, your concerns. I share your concerns about me. I don't want to admit it, but I do. Because we're all connected, you know. You're all connected here with me, in some way. And that's important. And I'm connected with you, you know. And that's important. So we're concerned about each other, and about personally and impersonally. So, this is my attitude, my kind of temper. I don't say I never get scared, or I don't say I never this or that, but my basic attitude is like this. yes well um i had lots of different thoughts but what's coming to me right now is that somehow you didn't take it seriously before whatever hill it was the anxiety attack and so i i of course all of our feelings are really about ourselves as well about it's about you but you know when you walked in i was sure that your arm was i mean i'm projecting stuff but then i think

[09:48]

You know, right in the middle of something, if you have one of those things that the hospital has told you to take in an emergency, will you rush out? I mean, will... That's my fear. Oh, yes. Of course. You just regret... How will you know? When there's an emergency, what is it? Because that's happened, I know. Okay. So it's the pain. Yeah. I have to say this. Every day I feel much better. Like today, you know. I feel great and energetic. Every day I feel more... calm, energetic, and less worried about, or less concerned about what, you know, this meant. So, it's true. Today I feel really energetic and, you know, each day, maybe the first day I was, you know, just, I could say I was tired or whatever, you know. and a little unused to the feelings of my body and so on, but now I feel just back to normal and very energetic and no pains at all.

[10:56]

It's both. It's all of it is both. But so whatever you can do, you will do. You now have two necks. I guess I'm not the only one. I have to say that Grace is not the only one. And I have so many mothers and fathers, families of mine, who have been telling me this. elements the worst. It's not like I don't know what to do. I know very well what to do. And it's not that... I would say 80% I eat what I'm supposed to eat. We eat very healthy food at home.

[12:19]

My wife knows exactly what to think. She's very up on broccoli. My biggest problem with food is that I eat too much. It's not what I eat so much, it's that I eat too much. If I go out to breakfast, sometimes I'm vegan. That's about the only meat I eat. I mean, red meat. And for the last five years, I stopped drinking juices, which are full of sugar. This is where you get most of your sugar, for juices. But you also get sugar through rice. Rice is loaded with sugar. So you can't avoid these things. And I don't eat cheese. I used to eat lots of cheese. So I used to get a lot of fat through cheese. I used to get a lot of sugar through juice.

[13:20]

I used to drink a quart of juice a day. And Tootsie Rolls. Go for it, Susan. Let the truth ring out. I get one tuts in a row every year. And Susan just happened to see you do it. That's why I doubted that we should clean your office. I'm just listening. Sorry. You know it's my office. There's stuff there that shouldn't be up there. I didn't realize I told anyone. You know what scares me is that I sometimes worry that you are just so confident. It upset me deeply to hear you describe radiated pain in your arm when you were walking to the point where you could barely walk.

[14:21]

And ignore it? No, I didn't ignore it. I did not ignore it. Yeah, but you didn't really do a whole lot of that. Actually, I finally got to the point where I went to the emergency. Yeah, finally, that's the operative word. Excuse me. Yes, but let me say something. Okay. Can I finish? You may finish. Last year, my partner had exactly the same thing happen to him. He had a stent put in. I'm scared that you're going to minimize this thing. Oh no. And I think, okay, six weeks has gone by and I'm safe now and I don't have to worry.

[15:25]

You know, I'm not minimizing. I think the biggest thing, the biggest thing that can cause you a problem is too much worry. And I'm not going to give myself over to anxiety and I'm worrying about this, I'm going to take care of it. Don't throw away your microcosm, okay? Well, I am taking care of this, and what happens, happens. But worrying is not going to make me any healthier. Taking care of it is going to make me healthier, right? And being concerned about it is going to help me be effective. But please don't tell me you're worried.

[16:28]

I will. I've crossed my heart. I hope to live. Basically, I think the son is asking you not to die. And it's not a realistic request. Well, it's not that I don't see it, but it's been a long time. Oh, yes, yes, yes. But you won't, you know, part of you, in a way, you'll be here forever.

[17:30]

In the way that Suzuki and Roshi is here forever. But you're going to die. Yes. I'm going to die. We've got a whole room full of dead people. We're all dead already. Q on that. I would disagree with you. I'm not asking you not to die. No, we know that. I'm asking you that when the period that you think is the dangerous period is over and gone by, that you don't slip back into this idea that it's okay if I have pain because it's just, you know, but... Right. To do something... I agree.

[18:31]

Totally. I totally agree. But I'm not asking for work. But I can't do it until I do it. I mean, I can't do it until, you know... So... Yeah. You know, I wanted to ask you, because I'm not sure, but what I think I hear people asking is, what will you do differently? You know, as someone who's had a life-threatening illness, I have to do some things differently now. And I also, you know, I have regular doctor visits and so on and so forth. Yes. Although I exercise. Exercise and diet.

[19:34]

Right? That's what it's about. And rest. And rest. Yeah. Oh, excuse me. What's that, three? Yeah, the three things. Put it in the back. Well, I get very uncomfortable with, when I feel it's lame. It's what? Lame. Yes. I don't know how to deal with that. And I want you to live well and live long. have a good time, and all of that stuff. And I guess there are enough people who will follow up with you on making sure that you take care of yourself. I guess we can all call that support.

[20:37]

But I'm reminded of, I believe it would now be today you've had an operation and then proceeded to show it to all Well, my admission is I was more worried about me than you. I mean, I was concerned about you, but I'm not so worried about you. I was worried about the group that I know and all the students and what the hell I was going to do. But I was so impressed that it wasn't kind of a I mean, I was pretty involved in what was going on, and it just seemed like everybody just went, like, rooted themselves, and just took care of what needed to be taken care of, and, you know, Sushumna and I, it was really wonderful. I mean, sorry to say it, but it's sort of like a dress rehearsal, like, you know, welcome, you know, take this.

[21:41]

It was really great. You know, when I was studying with Suzuki Roshi, and then I came to Berkeley, and I was doing this, and I would, you know, go back and forth, And I felt that he and I were practicing together even though I was here and he was there. But I felt that I was practicing in order to be independent. I knew that someday he was going to not be around. I didn't know when. But I was practicing to be on my own. When that happened, I would not be lost, and the Dharma would be in my hand. Well, and at this time, we're all practicing together, so I'm wondering if there's anything that we as individuals or as a Sangha can do to support you.

[22:42]

Which is what you do. I really feel so much support, you know. I don't know what more I could ask for. I guess I meant specifically the changes that you're talking about. A really small... We're not saying anything. I mean, I don't know... No. Oh, I see. I think what you're doing is just great. It's really up to me to do what I have to do. It's not up to you, you know. It's up to me to do what I'm supposed to do, not you. And you can support what I'm doing. And, you know, if I'm not lying, you can tell me. Mark, any questions? No, but first I want to make a comment with this. I remember when you were in the hospital, Alan said the doctors told him that you, after the operation, you should be feeling a lot better. That's what doctors always say.

[23:51]

That's true. It may be what they always say, but it's what he said. So, I think that's true. I mean, there's no reason to disbelieve that. I mean, when you're getting more, you should feel better. So, I do. I already feel better than I did before. And, you know, six months from now, I'm going to die. But I'm not counting on that, you know? Two minutes from now I'm going to die. But I won't. I have a question. It's a little bit out of context. Well, that's... Did everyone hear that back there?

[24:56]

Repeated subject. Riding the thief's horse to catch the thief. When you take something that's a problem and use it as an asset. Well, that's right. The problem you have is actually your teacher, your asset. That's a good point. I was thinking about last prepositive when we were really thinking birth and death. And you had an image of Edwin Monk's painting of the man standing on the edge of the abyss looking into the darkness.

[26:00]

And you made quite a point about how we keep wanting to turn and look at the light, but we need to hold ourselves right on the edge and look into the dark. And yesterday when you came up, I found myself wanting to ask, was this an occasion of looking into the dark? already been there, done that, that might be part of the reason why this did not feel alarming. I don't know why it didn't feel alarming. I just have always had this optimistic feeling. Do you remember ever having, I mean you were counseling us to do that, just stand and look into the abyss. And I think about death every day.

[27:04]

I actually think about death every day. And it's like, you know, we think about it, we have thoughts about it, and we have feelings about it. You have thoughts about it, feelings about it, and emotions about it, and then there's it, which is different. Right? So, what we think about it is what we think about it. What we feel about it is what we feel about it. But when it's there, that's when you know what is it. So, my... I do think about it every day, and I feel that the best way Not think about, what is it?

[28:10]

Am I going to die? But how can I just live up to the end? How can I just continue to live? If I just continue to live while I'm living, then when I'm dead, that will take care of itself. That's what will take care of me dying. You know, it's like, I remember when we used to, in Tassajara, we'd plan out the practice period day by day, you know, we'd make a calendar for every day of the practice period, and then we'd discuss it during the practice period, and we'd say, well, let's see, it's January, February, and now it's February, and then we have all these Pretty soon the thing will be over.

[29:11]

You know, have you ever had that? Yeah. Pretty soon it'll all be over. Well, look at your life. You know? You're 69. Pretty soon it'll be over. Time is going faster and faster for you. But, why look at it that way? I don't want to look at it that way. As soon as you start looking at it that way, you've already lost your life. You've already lost your life. You just stepped outside of it. Just be in it. This is my practice and my effort. Just live life. And then when it's time to die, just die. Everybody does this. Everybody who's ever been born has done this. There must be something to it. And this is ... How do we understand it?

[30:18]

The problem is that we relate to ourself. And, you know, when it comes down to it, we're isolated. The thing about anxiety and self-consciousness is that we isolate ourself. And then we have the self. that we create by isolating ourselves from our surroundings. And when you have anxiety, you feel disconnected from your surroundings. So, to feel that you are part of your surroundings. I was reading this article in the National Geographic about parasites. It's not only on the inside, but on the outside.

[31:22]

And you take a bath, take a shower, you know, and you go swimming, and you think you're free, but you're not. They live, you know, in those corners. Eyebrows, eyelashes. And they're there, you know. And they're cleaning you up. And they're also infecting you, you know. But we think we're independent, you know. We're so connected with everything. We're just part of life. And our birth and our death is just part of life. So when we can accept that our birth and our death is part of life, instead of some isolated experience, like, what will happen when I die? I don't know. When I die, I'll find out. But I'm willing to wait. But just as you say about interdependency, your death is not just your death. That's right. It's something that we're sharing. That's right.

[32:23]

And so, that's the part where you have some responsibility. What can I tell my mother again? So when you had your anxiety attack and you felt disconnected, how did you practice? Well, I just let it be. Can you say more? Yes. I just let it be. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know, is this a problem with my help that's causing the anxiety in my life. Anxiety is causing the problem. Did you think it was self-cleaning?

[33:24]

Did you try to let go? Yeah, because it was self-cleaning. I'm trying to let go. Right. So were you able to? Well, finally, I went to see a doctor, because I wanted to find out if there was anything wrong with my, physically, that was causing this. Because it was unusual. Suddenly, just suddenly, it was unusual. And my body was contracting, you know, I could feel my body contracting. The muscles, you know, kind of spinning. And I thought, this is more than just anxiety. So when I was in Chapel Hill, I went to a doctor. And the doctor couldn't find anything wrong, other than he didn't take a blood test. And so I said, well, give me a tranquilizer. So she gave me a tranquilizer, and that helped. And then I started, I did my class in Sashim, you know, three days.

[34:29]

And this was going on, but it was reduced by doing the practice. And then I came home, and it was still going on. But I just was with it. It just gradually let go. But I had this feeling all along that there was something physical that was causing it. I didn't feel like I had anything to be anxious about that was different in my life. But I couldn't tell, you know, I didn't know. We keep quoting this Dogen thing about, well, you know, our body, we just inherit it from our parents and it's really nothing. If you look for yourself, if you look for the self somewhere, if not, you say, if you look at your physical body, it's not there.

[35:37]

If you look at your emotions, it's not there. And so there you are, you're having anxiety, you feel disconnected, to the point where you're taking tranquilizers. I'm wondering if you doubted the word about there being no self. I wondered if you doubted your practice. No, I didn't. So what were your thoughts? How did you think? Who is anxious, right? Well, there was just this anxiety. You know, it's not like there's no body. The body is feeling this, and the emotions are feeling something. And that's actually how I got through it, because I know It's a feeling, it's really this. And where is it now? Well, separately. You know, you may keep a faith.

[36:43]

Does the Zen Master ever get sick? Does the Zen Master ever suffer? Not that I'm a Zen Master. This is a question to go, oh, geez, I got real disappointed in my teacher. He had a cold. I hear what you're saying about living life is what we're here to do, and that death will take care of itself. And yet, I still haven't made out a will. And for me, that feels like And it's very much tied to that whole, you know, the self. And so I think there is a value in facing our situation, as it truly is.

[37:50]

There's a... Isn't there a Buddhist tradition where they contemplate a skull and, you know? Yes. Oh, I'm not saying that you shouldn't look at death at all. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying you should definitely look at it in faith. and then go on living. As a matter of fact, you can't live completely unless you do that. Because, in a sense, living is learning how to die. That's actually If it takes care of itself, why is there something to learn? Well, maybe that's what you need to learn.

[38:54]

I have something to say about that. And I'm just going to say this name and it's just an example of what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about him or what he does. But when I say the name, a lot of people will understand that this country is not taking care of their own death. There are a certain segment of them. They're going to Dr. Kevorkian or And I don't know what to make of it, but it's clear that this is something new.

[39:55]

So that's all I can say. Well, before we had so many wonderful ways of dealing with our health problems, then it must have been a lot of suffering. This is the one thing that hit me the most. Like, I could take a pill and my suffering would go away. But, before that, in all parts of the world that don't have those pills, it's a mass of suffering. I used to think, if I didn't have this pill, what would I be feeling like, you know, if I didn't have that pill? It's like, there are times when there's more pain you can stand. And, Dr. Kamortien comes in handy.

[41:00]

I'm not saying that Dr. Kamortien's method is significant. It's on the fence. Well, sure, everything has its, you know, other side. Well, you know, it's very important to lessen the pain when you have physical problems, because the pain will kill you. What they said to me was, If you have any pain, take this pill because pain will damage you. So, he wouldn't allow me to have any pain.

[42:09]

I didn't tell him about the machine. My thought was, will we lose, if we lose blue, will we lose direction here? I mean, no, I'm not, this is not in any way a lack of confidence in the teachers here. I'm just wondering if you're saying that you have confidence that the teaching runs through the rest of the senior sangha? I think it does. I have confidence, even though the senior sangha, all the senior sangha are not necessarily like me, they're like them.

[43:17]

But the dharma is the dharma, and it takes a different form of each person. Each teacher has a different style. So what happens when a teacher dies is that always some kind of rough transition periods. Not always, but usually. And some, a lot of people leave because they don't, well, who's this, you know? And that, I'm used to practicing with this person, you know, I don't want to, this is what happened when Suzuki Roshi died, and a lot of the people left, you know, they liked it small, they didn't want to be on it, it was growing bigger, you know. So, and a different teacher. people don't always relate to the different teacher. And so, a lot of people leave, but people get used to the teacher, and want the teacher to, you know, be a teacher. And I had a lot of confidence, actually, in people here. Also, I have other dharma here, outside of Berkut, who I'm sure,

[44:26]

do whatever they can to help. I don't think Greg can do this in an isolated place. Can I follow up on that a little bit? But also, I think it might be worth just saying what happened at the last board meeting, for those who don't know, that you did write something down. I have a sealed letter that says, if I die, so and so will. But I'm not going to tell you that yet. So-and-so would be my choice. But if it didn't say, so-and-so would do this, I'd say so-and-so would be my recommendation.

[45:35]

So it wouldn't come to happen? It wouldn't be my recommendation. Does so-and-so have a copy of the letter? No. So-and-so doesn't even know. So-and-so's not counting rabbits, right? Nobody knows what's in the letter except me. I'm not sure why this floated through my brain, but when I was thinking about that, like, So what qualities did you look for in your choice? The first thing is good understanding, loyalty to the Dharma and to the Sangha.

[46:57]

And single-mindedness of practice. So, it's already 9.30.

[48:14]

I don't know what I can do to convince you I'm graced. You don't have to convince me. Well, I can't convince you. There's no way. And it's something that, I mean, I think about families that I've worked with where someone's been ill or is dying, and it's so crucial to be able to do that. And I think it should relieve our anxiety. And so then we can kind of go on. I appreciate that.

[49:21]

I would not like us to go along feeling some...

[49:22]

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