scratch the surface, but we'll scratch a little further. And I'm just going to run through, so to speak, the run through look at any commentaries so that we can see where we are in the sutra. So, I'm just going to start from the beginning. Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva, when practicing deeply the Prajnaparamita, perceived that all five skandhas, forms, feelings, perceptions, mental formations and consciousness, in their own being, are empty.

[01:09]

and was saved from all sufferings of being. It's an important term here. Shariputra. Form does not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from form. That which is form is emptiness. That which is emptiness, form. The same is true of feelings. The same is true of perceptions. The same is true of impulses, means mental formations and consciousness. So here he's reiterating the five skandhas again. O shariputra, all dharmas are also marked with emptiness. The word also is not there, I just put it in. O shariputra, all dharmas are also marked with emptiness. They do not appear or disappear. Appear and disappear actually means born and die. and they do not are not born and they do not die but here the terms appear and disappear are used they're not tainted and they're not

[02:24]

consciousness. So the five skandhas are mentioned a third time. Can you get that? In each one of these sections is the five skandhas. In the first section, Avalokiteshvara perceived that the five skandhas in their own being are empty. In the second section, He's talking about, form does not differ from emptiness, and emptiness does not differ from form. That which is emptiness is form, and the same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness. That's the third time he's talking about the five skandhas. He says, using form, as a complement to emptiness. So he's using the first of the five skandhas, form, to complement emptiness.

[03:44]

With Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from form. So he can use each one of those five skandhas to replace the word form. Form does not differ from Emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from Form. Feelings do not differ from Emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from Feelings. Perceptions do not differ from Emptiness. Emptiness does not differ from Perceptions. And impulses by mental formation and consciousness are the same. So, it's all about the five skandhas. form, skanda of form, and the rest are the skandas of mind. Form is the body. Because it's about the human being, it's not about other kinds of forms.

[04:49]

It's about the form of the human. The form of the human is the body and its functions. And then the feelings are more mental, and the perceptions are more mental, and mental formations are more mental, and consciousness is more mental. So four mentals in one form. And then, I'll show you a picture of dharmas in mind. Remember when we went through the dharmas? We talked about what are dharmas? Does anybody not remember that? I get mixed messages here. You went back very quickly. You read off a list. Yeah. Okay. Put it this way. I read off the list. Yes. We didn't go through that. The sandhas are the categories of form and mental.

[06:11]

And the dharmas are the particulars. Dharma with a small t are the particulars. So, in general, there are the categories of dharmas. So there are touch, sensation, thought, idea, volition. and wisdom. And then there are good dharmas, wholesome dharmas, which are faith, resolve,

[07:13]

Absence of hatred, absence of ignorance, energy, repose of mind, vigilance, equanimity, non-injury. And then there are wholesome dharmas. Unwholesome dharmas are covetousness, hatred, ignorance, arrogance, doubt, false view. And then there are the minor evils. Anger, enmity, concealment, affliction, envy, parsimony, deception, fraudulence, injury, pride, shamelessness, non-bashfulness, restlessness, low-spiritedness, disbelief, sloth, negligence, forgetfulness, distraction, non-discernment, and so forth. So you get a picture of what the dharmas are. And then there are also the dharmas of consciousness, which are the five sense doors and the three higher elements of consciousness.

[08:40]

Can you give me an example of how a dharma, for instance, of ignorance is not born, or Because it seems like ignorance comes from something and yet they are not born. We use the word born in various ways. So born means out of nothing. Ignorance is dependent on something. That's why it's called non-born. marked with emptiness. In other words, the true mark of all dharmas. Mark means characteristic, main characteristic. That's a term that's used, I guess, in philosophy. All the dharmas, like heat,

[09:51]

I mean, fire is a dharma, and its main characteristic is heat. That's the mark of fire, is heat. The mark of water is wet. The mark of earth is solidity. The mark of air is ethereal, or something. Dharma has its main characteristic. But the main characteristic of all Dharmas, regardless of what their apparent characteristic is, is emptiness. Everything is marked. The true mark of everything is empty. Shunyat. That's the true mark of everything. So everything is equal in that. them coming together to make forms.

[11:01]

There are whirlpools. I like to think of it as whirlpools. Something happens in the realm of movement and then it creates a whirlpool and each one of us is a little kind of tomato. I think so. And some of us are more tornadoes than others. Sometimes price fighters will go... But it's this congregation of dharmas that creates what we call this and that. So everything is just... And when you read the Pali Sutra, There's this wonderful gatha, I can't remember it exactly, but the gist of it is, it's only dharmas rolling along.

[12:10]

Whatever you think things are, it's only dharmas rolling along, endlessly. So birth and death is just dharmas rolling along endlessly. beginning and end. We talk about beginnings and endings, and we can delineate beginnings and endings temporally, but actually everything is just, the end of one thing is the beginning of another. So it's just endlessly continuation. of selfness, of consciousness. Consciousness is a selfness, because consciousness creates the sense of self.

[13:13]

So when we say birth and death, we're talking about the birth and death of a self. And then when we point to, well, what is this self? What is this self? If the self is subject to birth and death, what are we talking about? So, it's a problem. We've located the self and we've found out that it doesn't have any intrinsic existence. It's called manas in Sanskrit. It's the seventh consciousness. The first six consciousnesses are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. The five senses are the doorways to consciousness.

[14:21]

So they're called consciousnesses themselves. So, that leads us to the rest of this. O Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness. All dharmas are just empty. The true form is no form. The true form is no special form. All are marked with emptiness. They're not born, nor die. They're not tainted, and they're not pure. Tainted and pure are ideas we have. Garbage sinks, and... Perfume. Yeah. Peaches smell wonderful, especially now. Candles.

[15:22]

Not too good, but okay. But that's just a notion, an idea that we have because of where we stand. Our standpoint determines what everything is. We only see things from our own standpoint. But if you get up there and take over your standpoint and take a view that's not biased or divided, then you can see what danger they are. If you've ever made compost, you know that you use the garbage and all that, which is life itself. Compost is teeming with life. The reason garbage smells so great, so terrible, is because it's teeming with life, and all those organisms are breaking it down.

[16:24]

You pick it up and it's not sweet. It's just causing this transformation and it becomes the life of your planets. So... I won't tell you this, but you may have funny things about it. But mostly I pee in the backyard. Paul Disko, who is now a famous Japanese carpenter, put a 55-gallon drum in the men's dorm bathroom, and we were all supposed to pee in it. And then, when it got sort of full, he took it out and put it in the compost.

[17:44]

put it on the ground. I don't remember where he put it exactly, but because it was, you know, why flush it away when it's so good for the ground, for the earth? Animals, this is what, one of the functions of animals contribute to keeping the soil healthy. Anyway, so everything is compost. So, therefore in emptiness, there is no form.

[18:50]

Now here's talking about the five skandhas again. Therefore, in a given emptiness, there is no form, no feelings, no perceptions, no mental formation, and no consciousness. And then it goes on to say no eyes, no ears, no dead object of mine, no realm of lies until the realm of my consciousness. So up to there, it's talking about dharmas. The five doorways of perception which are eyes, ears, nose, tongue, touch and consciousness. Those are six. Then there are the six objects of those six senses. And then there are six consciousnesses which correspond to those twelve.

[19:57]

That's 18, 3 times 6 is 18. So the 18 dots, the 18 realms, When you study Amitabha, when you study basic Buddhism, you study the eighteen, these are all dharmas, the senses and consciousness, the lower level of consciousness, the six, and then the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind. And then there's any object which corresponds to those senses. We call it the six senses, the six objects, and then the corresponding consciousness. So, basically, basic Buddhism, in order to have awareness, you have to have a sense, like an eye, and an object, which is like the floor.

[20:58]

And then, when the eye comes into contact with the floor, then consciousness arises. So consciousness arises with the object and with the sense. So the first six are called the six roots of subjectivity, which are seeing, hearing, tasting, and so forth. Those are the six roots of subjectivity. And the six fields of objectivity are see or sense. And the six consciousnesses are what create our perceptions. So that's 6, 12, 18. So in other words it's saying none of these exist don't exist at all.

[22:13]

If we talk about real existence, it's not that they're not there. They are there, but they're not real, in the sense that even the nose, the nose you have now, looks a little bit like the nose you had 10 years ago. And then it goes on to say, no realm of eyes until no realm of mind consciousness. It just eliminates all the da [...] and makes it succinct. So then it goes on to say, So the sutra is saying, no suffering, no origination, no stopping your path.

[23:36]

And then it goes on to say, also, no attainment, no cognition. no knowing, no knowledge, basically, and no attainment. So this is an important aspect. With nothing to attain, indifferent to attainment, basically, the Bodhisattva depends on prajnaparamita. So this is like the true form of everything. to find the true form of ... this is what Abbot O'Borah is always saying in Tiger's Cave, to find the true form in the ordinary person's delusion. So, we feel that we have all these dharmas and that they're all real, and so we have to find the true form of the existing, which is called the real.

[24:51]

which is no form. So, without any hindrance, no, this is, the Bodhisattva depends on Prajnaparamita, so that's what the Bodhisattva depends on. It doesn't depend on anything else, except food and drink, sleep. And then the mind is no hindrance. In other words, you don't have to eliminate the mind. It's okay. You don't have to Kanze translates it as without thought coverings. So thought coverings, commentators usually say, thought coverings cover the realization.

[26:15]

But due to thought coverings, it's suppressed. So nothing to depend, nothing to attain, the Bodhisattva depends on Prajnaparamita and the mind is no hindrance. Without any hindrance, no fears exist. So what is the hindrance that creates fear? the self, because the self doesn't want to disappear. Because the self doesn't want to disappear, there's called fear. So we have to be able to see beyond the self without trying to eliminate it. So far apart from every perverted view, one dwells in nirvana.

[27:37]

So there are four perverted views. The view of permanence, the view of ease, self, and delight. Actually, they're called upside-down views. Tapsiturvi is the original meaning. In other words, they're upside-down. We think that what is impermanent we think is permanent. That's a taxidermy view. We think that what is ease, or what is... We think that... We think that what is not a self is a self. And we think that what is not delightful is delightful.

[28:42]

We take delight in what is not really delightful. So I'm not going to get into that. So then it says, in the three worlds, all Buddhists depend on Prajnaparamita. Three worlds, past, present, and future, can attain unsurpassed, complete, perfect enlightenment, Anuttara, Sanghaksa, and Bodhi, unobstructed. In other words, enlightenment just unobstructed. You can't make it. because it's beyond true and false.

[29:54]

So proclaim the Prajnaparamita mantra. To proclaim the mantra that says, gati gati, paragati paragati, puri svara. So, I'm going to go back. Therefore know that Prajnaparamita is the great transcendent mantra. It's the middle way form and emptiness. The mantra, the Prajnaparamita is the great transcendent mantra. And at the end, there is the mantra. The mantra is the only... Sutras don't usually end with a mantra. And the rest of the Prajnaparamita sutras don't end with a mantra. The mantra is very peculiar to the Heart Sutra.

[30:56]

But I'll get to that. So the Prajnaparamita is the great transcendent mantra. Middle way, you know, is beyond dualities. That's middle way. People think middle way is, well, you don't do too much of this, you don't do too much of that, which is okay, that's good. But real middle way is beyond dualities. Enlightenment needs delusion.

[32:01]

That's why the world is the way it is. We need the delusion. No matter how much we want to have peace, it's not going to happen. It will happen, and it won't happen. And we have to find peace in the midst of the problem. There's always a fly in the ointment. Whatever you have withers away. Some things wither slower than others. Some things wither faster than others. And you do something wonderful, you get great peace, oh, things are going to be great now, and then, whoosh, something comes along and pushes them over. So, Middle way means above enlightenment and delusion.

[33:05]

Beyond enlightenment and delusion is true enlightenment. And this is the Great Break Mantra. It's like a mirror. Abbot Obora talks about it, about the mirror in the Tiger's Cave. Tien Sha was the Chinese master of the Tang Dynasty, and a monk asked, smashing it into a thousand pieces.

[34:09]

Smashing it into a thousand pieces means that each piece reflects. Togen says in Genjo Koan, In other words, if you only had the bright mirror and you think that's enlightenment, it's not so. The mirror has to be smashed into a thousand pieces. You have to come off of your high horse and enter into the world of delusion. It's also like the waves, you know. like a mirror, but you have to break it into pieces.

[35:23]

You can't hold on to it as one piece. So it's the utmost mantra, which means there's nothing beyond it. If you can find something beyond it, go ahead. And then it's the supremum separating from delusion and from birth and death, actually. Freedom within birth and death and freedom from birth and death. So in order to find freedom within birth You can't have one without the other.

[36:26]

You can't have peace without war. You can't have freedom without suffering. It just doesn't work that way. Because this is the dualistic world. You live in the dualistic world. And the way you live in the dualistic world is non-dualistically. That's the truth. And it is true, not false. Well, I think that's a funny term. I don't buy that exactly. I would say it means it's beyond truth and falsehood. Because truth and falsehood are just another duality. Our thinking is dualistic. Our thinking is discriminatory.

[37:29]

And so we're always dividing. So, it's beyond true and false. What's a mantra? A mantra, well, a mantra is usually, I think, a teacher will sometimes give a student a mantra that has some words, power words, one kind or another, and then the student chants the mantra. You haven't heard the mantra? I've heard of it, I just wondered in this context. In this context, yes.

[38:30]

So I'll get to that. So proclaim the Prajnaparamita mantra. which is like courting wisdom. I don't think it was courting wisdom. Mantra, but here is the mantra. It proclaims the mantra go, gone, altogether, gone, beyond, awakening fulfilled. That's the kind of interpretation, but mostly it's what it means. So the mantra is like

[39:38]

The sutra is explaining the Prajnaparamita, and the mantra is saying, go do this. It's practice, it's not just an idea. Go ahead and practice it. Go, go, go, go on. Go to the other side, the other shore. We say there's this shore and then there's the shore of release, or the shore of freedom, or whatever you want to call it. But actually, it's not two different places. So... There's a question. Excuse me. Yes. Go ahead and finish what you were saying. Please finish what you were saying. I don't want to interrupt. Okay. So... a nice understanding, and I kind of selected from him, which is that human affairs is the mantra.

[40:55]

The way you practice is the mantra. I was very aware of Suzuki Roshi's practice as the mantra. Once a day he would sit Zazen, he wore his robes, he sat Zazen, he would come out, of his office, go to his endo, and offer incense, sit dozen, come back around, do service. He did this twice a day, every day, over and over and over again, and he didn't seem to have any anxiety, he didn't seem to have any, it's like, that activity was like a mantra. Not words, but activity, the movement of your life. And when you do something like the whirlpool, this is called Gyoji, you know, it's continuous practice.

[42:08]

That's the mantra. Continuous practice is the mantra. And dokan means doing something over and over again, like everyday zazen service. The monastic practice is like that. Dokan, the circle of the way, is called the ring of the way, way ring. Circles create power. And when you have a cyclone, the cyclone is very powerful. And in the middle is what? Emptiness. I'm curious what the non-monastic version of that is.

[43:10]

Abbott's comment. That was very helpful. I do suffer from anxiety when I think about the way things are in America today. And I feel like it's different than it was 30 years ago and very different than it was 1,300 years ago. And so I want to be mindful of what my response is is actually as a student to not just kind of sit back and be complicit. No, it's not different than it was 150 years ago. It's not? No. The obstructionists were in Congress, and they would not allow anything to happen. When you go back to Egypt, ancient Egypt, there's a transcript that's in Harvard that says, the children of today are so undisciplined and blah, blah, blah, blah.

[44:33]

And they kick each other off. It's really insane. It's all an attitude. It's important to have attitude, the right attitude, because in a world where you can't control everything, you can't do it, you can't control it, but where do you have control? So in a world where you can't control the circumstances, you put out this fire and then there's a fire over there, There's no time when people are not being slaughtered. It just doesn't happen. And we happen to live in the cornucopia of the world, which is peaceful and a lot of freedom and so forth, especially in Berkeley, California, you know, the Golden State.

[45:43]

It really is the Golden State. And so we're very fortunate You know, light up your own corner of the world. That's what you have to do. We don't know the far-reaching effects of our practice. We can't know that. But I do know that there are far-reaching effects. People coming and doing zazen every day and going overlap each other. Each one of us has a vortex, our doh-kahn, our ring or the wave. Each one has a vortex and our circles meet and interact.

[46:47]

And the circles that you produce, that are produced from your activity, create We pick up vibrations all the time. I mean, we don't pick up as many vibrations as animals do. Other kinds of animals, I mean. Like a dog. They can't think in the same way that we do. So we tend to select what we're going to think about. We can't think about everything. It's not about everything. There's no space.

[47:49]

We can only think about so much and do so much. So you have to select. may not work, but it's got to work. If you're totally convinced of what you're doing, and totally dedicated, good things happen, bad things happen, it doesn't make any difference. It does not matter. This is what's called Good things come, bad things come, upset comes, blah, blah. That's what Zazen is. You just go deeper into your practice, and then when you go deeper

[48:53]

So this is like drilling a well, drilling a well deeper and deeper. That's Dokkan, the Ring of the Wave. This is why I was so impressed with Suzuki Roshi, because he was just That's all. He was like Vairochana. Vairochana, you know, in Buddhist iconography, Vairochana is the source of light and just sits there and emanates light. That's all. that generates everything.

[50:05]

So in Buddhism there's Mara and Buddha. And Buddha, Thich Nhat Hanh nicely says, you know, Buddha doesn't get angry at Mara. They have a relationship. They have a relationship. And our tendency is to want to eliminate evil, but we can't. You cannot eliminate evil because it exists. Both of those exist within ourselves. Even though we may not activate evil, our influence, you can't tell people what they should do to change, but when you actuate the validity of your practice, that influences people.

[51:25]

Both. But if you depend on everything being stable around you, then that's a problem. You cannot depend on everything being stable around you. You have to provide the stability. So the more problem This is a very famous story about, what's his name, who made his commentary on the Ginjo Koan, the one we've been studying.

[53:14]

No. No, he didn't write that one. There's a story about Bokosan. He actually lived in the 19th century, the latter part of the 19th century. And he was in his temple, and bandits came, and they wanted to find somebody, and they were going to take him out and do something with him. And it was just something about his demeanor. They just watched him make the tea, and then drank the tea, and just kind of started going about his business. And they left. I'm not saying that everybody can do that. But he had a lot of spiritual power.

[54:17]

He had a lot of spiritual power. says, in empty-handedness is there the distinction of ordinary person and sage? Surely the life of Master Dogen was transcendence of values and seeing everything alike. So to have a taste of the world of emptiness we must make at least some effort to separate ourselves from the world of relative values. talked about value and virtue, to use those two terms. Value means competitive, so this thing is something, you know, a Rolls Royce has higher value than a Ford station wagon, but basically they're both just cars.

[55:33]

And the four has its virtue being just what it is, but we compare them. And so we always fall into the world of comparison or the world of value. One thing is worth more than something else. But in the realm of non-duality, the nature of our practice. We should be very careful not to compare ourselves to others. So-and-so sits like this, but I can't do that, you know, so they must be better than me or something. Or they've been practicing a long time and I'm just an artist. Or so-and-so is a big shot, you know, and They each have their virtue.

[56:43]

And when you come to the Zen Dojo, we're all equal. Rich or poor, whatever, all equal. We just let go of all that. Except that when we ask for donations. Nevertheless, the person can only give five cents. He gives $500. So, though we may not have attained it yet, if in our passage amidst the illusions of attachment there has been a hint of awakening, should be towards transcendence. In a railway train of conversation with people, I must make the effort to do it.

[57:50]

One time I found myself late at night at Fukui Station. The train was going to a pilgrimage center, and many pilgrims got on. On either side of me were old men and women. I was wearing simple clothes with just a round hat, and I suppose I didn't look to them like a priest. I asked whether they were pilgrims, And if so, where they were going? And they told me they were going on the way to Minobu Mountain at the suggestion of their families. I said, that would be interesting for them. And one of them broke in. We're going to Minobu. Where are you going, Granddad? At that moment, how is it that one is carrying anything in the heart? to Granddad and from the bottom of my heart to Biso. I said, why, I'm off to Nagoya, you know. And then we struck up a pleasant conversation. We came to the junction at Maibara, and while I was getting my things together, the pilgrims had already got into the other train, except one old woman who got separated from the party and was lost in the subway

[59:03]

world. There is no dividing into good and evil. To take good and evil as they are is the world of emptiness in the Buddha field, in the Buddha. Not defiled, not pure. It transcends distinctions of ordinary and sage, illusion and satori." So that is a little comment on the distinction between defiled and pure. He talks a lot in that chapter about that place, the bottom of the heart. Yes, not holding something in the bottom of the heart. Can you say a little more about your experience of the bottom of the heart? We always say it's from the bottom of my heart, right? I think it's a different bottom. I think so. It's like not holding something special, not hanging on to some answer that we have. or some, you know, some answer that we prepared for a way of responding to things mechanically.

[60:35]

So it's simply just letting go and responding from emptiness, basically. Just trusting that you will have, that the right response will come up. So there's no guile and there's no partiality. So from that place that's what creates unity? That creates unity. I like that. Yes, creating unity. But you can't create unity if you have a bias. Not possible. You can't create unity even if you have an idea of unity. Because unity comes when everything when everything's gone. True unity is where there's nothing. So our unities are always tentative.

[61:41]

So the only way to have true unity is if everybody gave up. Haven't you thought about this? If everybody in the world sat down and did Zazen for five minutes, That would be five minutes of unity. Five minutes of unity. They really gave up everything. They just did real Zazen. Just let go. That would be five minutes of unity. When I first came to my In this way, we directly confront the wrong thoughts and ideas which arise day and night.

[62:59]

If on them we perform our spiritual discipline, we become able to have a little taste of the world of emptiness. Emptiness is not to be a concept in our heads. leaves no trace, from the confusion of sixfold subject and object which we were talking about. We have been pulled along, but now our steps have no track, and we know the experience of being light. Nothingness means lightness in this sense, the joy of leaving no track behind. When I first came to my present temple, I found I was getting a bad reputation as uncivil and unsociable. I tried to think what it might be, but I could not see that I was uncivil. I took a lot of trouble over being civil. If an old lady came with a radish to offer to the temple, I used to say, it is really extraordinarily good of you to have brought such a fine radish, and please accept my gratitude.

[64:12]

And may I inquire after your health and that of your family? to say to an old woman with a sloth around her head, may I inquire after your health? And when I was saying, it is extraordinarily good of you to have brought such a fine radish, I had something in the back of my mind, even though probably he was thinking, what? One radish? Well, I changed. When I met an old lady on the way, I did not say, Madam, may I inquire whether you may repeat elegant phrases a thousand times, but if there is something at the back of the mind, there is the opposition of hearer and one who is heard. If there is nothing in the heart and complete unity, then the simplest phrase doesn't have any opposition in it and there is just one.

[65:19]

And words, whether there is neither hearer nor heard, are the world of emptiness. Suppose one gets up early while it is still dark. And on the way to the bathroom, one stumbles against a water jar on the ground and breaks it. How clumsy of me. And the wife replies, it wasn't your fault. I had to have put it away. There is no foolish complaining because each side is looking at its own fault.

[66:21]

But we don't do it like that. Instead, we attack the other party by saying, who is the fool that left that here in the dark? And the retort comes back. Who is it that goes blundering over and then complains when the wrangle is on? All the time trying to make oneself out to be right is the sin of folly. This is a big one. We really want to be right. It's really hard to let go and give in. And it's not that you're wrong. It's just that you don't have to be on top. And then that's really dwelling and letting go. Yes.

[67:37]

May I ask another question? Yes. That's OK. No, we should be asking questions. OK. When the bell rings, do we get up from Zaza? If you want to. If the bell rings? When the bell rings, should we? Do we or should we? Yeah, I mean, I guess I feel like if there's a sense of urgency, like it's wonderful for me to sort of hang out in a peaceful place. Yes. But I also feel like it's either my responsibility or my ego-driven karmic consciousness to get up and help. I don't want to be unhelpful by getting pulled along, but I don't want to just... Do you see what I mean?

[68:41]

I do see what you mean. Yes, this is an old argument. I'm sorry. I'm putting it that way. No. This is like... Why aren't we sitting here when people are marching against the Vietnam War? And Suzuki Roshi got up out of his seat and started beating this guy. Dreamer! Dreamer! As if... That's more important than this. He'd been through many wars and had an understanding that sitting Zazen was not just pleasing yourself.

[69:47]

He said, how can we be sitting here when other people are suffering, enjoying ourselves? So in those days, everybody was really having a hard time sitting Zazen, crossing their legs and not uncrossing them. going through the pain and suffering, or the pain, of learning how to sit Zazen. Not taking the easy way. In order to actually realize what non-duality is. We don't sit just to have a comfortable sitting. We do sit comfortable. But comfort comes from the inside. So we were always making big effort to sit through all of our difficulties.

[70:48]

And that's what Sanzen was about. It was about sitting through our difficulties. How do we sit through our difficulties? How do we act? receive Buddhist teaching. Buddhist teaching is about suffering and about how to deal with suffering. It's fine to go out and march. We do that too. But sinning is not just escaping from that. This is, you know, This is bread.

[71:49]

deal with everything that comes up in a way that we're not turned around or pushed over by it. It's like, it resets us to have no expectation, no expectation of anything. just to be present. So we're actually creating a place in the world where we can do that. And that is as important as marching against the Vietnam War. When it's necessary to jump out of your seat and do something, you should do it. But at the same time, if you don't have right composure, then you may not do the right thing.

[73:22]

So how we actually have composure under all circumstances, any circumstances, is our practice. I'm going to ask a question. In this book, you talk sometimes about making emptiness. Making emptiness? Yeah. And that's a funny word to use, though. It's not the same as realizing emptiness. What is the context? I'll just read. Many times he says this in the book, but I'll just read one time. On the contrary, through the form body of illusion, the body which is revolving in birth and death, we are to make emptiness and embody the meaning of emptiness. I think that's the translator.

[74:27]

Maybe he might realize. Yeah, maybe he might realize. It sounds to me like there's some intentionality in there, like to try to put on a view of it. Yeah. Trying to see it. Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it. In any translation, there are a number of questionable answers, especially from the Japanese. So that's the end. I'll just read you something he says at the end. He says, we have to experience the world of release at each step in life and live lightly without leaving a track. There is still the present world of ignorance no longer impediments, rather it is just through them that we get a deep experience of being unburdened.

[75:49]

And this is the secret of the repetition of the words, no, no, no. If you don't mind, maybe you can say something about your study of the Heart Sutra over the years, how it appeared to you originally, and maybe some of the ways that you've gained understanding. That's a long story, isn't it? But I think that, I don't think it's any different than when I first started studying.

[76:58]

I started studying Kanze, and then Mabora, and mostly, and then there are Tibetan translations or commentaries which are much more intellectual. But I think that It's like reading Zen Mind Beginner's Mind. You read it, and you get to the end. And then you start reading it again. And when you read it again, it's an entirely different book. And then you get to the end, and then you start reading it again, and it's an entirely different book. So that's kind of like the way the Heart Sutra is. It's like, oh yeah, oh yeah, I know that, but oh yeah, oh yeah. And so it keeps reminding. And then when you study it a second time, you go, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Or it wakes up something else. So there's no end.

[78:00]

No. There's no end to it. Do you find that still to be the case? Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely, yeah. And there's some things that you emphasize that you didn't realize, didn't emphasize before, and then you see how certain things go together, which you didn't see before. So I think it's kind of endless. And the main thing to realize is that no matter how many times you study it, you don't know anything about it at all. So I think that's the virtue of A very good text. I have a few texts that I always read that are, you know, kind of like the main texts, that are kind of perennial.

[79:03]

And that's one of them. I like Kanze a lot. We didn't bring him into it this time, but... He says the Heart Sutra is just a restatement of the Four Noble Truths in the light of Mahayana.

[79:27]

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