Okay, so I have to ask that. I knew it. Well, you sit in the front. You make yourself a target. But I can guess who's behind the pillar. So what of the various things I asked for would you contribute? Well, what came up was... the question about the daily working self and the practicing, whoever that is, self, me.

[01:09]

And basically just the trying to to differentiate on the one hand and yet to integrate on the other hand. Wondering about that. What struck me was the question of the nature, the Dharma nature, Buddha nature, as something higher or greater. I'm wondering about that. Maybe a little louder. What came up to me is the question of my everyday working self, in the work, and the practicing self, or I,

[02:13]

and the difference on the one hand, but the attempt to connect them, on the other hand, and what you mentioned to me and where a question came up, I can't put it more precisely, this question about the Dhamma nature, Buddha nature or the greater behind it, Yeah, that's a good wondering. We have two translators here. They can have a little discussion. And it's good to wander in our wonderings. Yeah, and not to let go of them, to stay with them, but not necessarily try to close them. Okay, Valentin? Um... You talked about the duality or the yearning of the person.

[03:58]

I actually don't know what you said, but it seems to be what I'm... Well, I looked at the title of the seminar and suddenly... this call and came up with the one who's not busy and he talked about that and it's always been a debate because the one who's busy seems to me for me personally the one who lives in the world and The one who's not busy seems to be somewhere else or outside this world. And there's always been this debate for me, stay in the world or go to a monastery. That means, is practice strong enough?

[05:05]

Living in a city? And this duality, sorry, it's hard to get to the point. It's been in a debate for a long time. Can you explain? Yeah, so you have this duality of the one who is not busy and the one who is busy. And that's been an inner debate for me for a long time, with which I deal with. And for me it seems to be that the one who is busy, that he lives in the world and... outside in the world and the one who is not busy, that he is somewhere outside of it. You're correcting me if I'm doing something wrong.

[06:10]

And for me there is this inner question again and again whether I leave the world and go to the monastery. And then there is also the question, is my practice strong enough where I live in the world or live in a city? Yes? Okay. But there's always something stopping me from coming into a monastery. Most of the times I've come here, you've always... are sometimes said that you're also in a debate between lay practice and monastic practice. So I've been going back and forth. But there is always something holding me back from actually entering the monastery, to actually live here. And you also talked about the fact that you have this debate, that you have a debate between the lay practice and the monastic practice.

[07:22]

And one of the factors holding me back, well, there's many factors, but it seems sometimes it would be an escape. It would be, it's always seemed to me that things would be much easier for me if I came If I left where I was. And one of the factors that keeps me from living in a monastery is that it feels like I'm running away. Because it seems so much easier for me to live in a monastery. I actually experienced that in a monastery in England. I was extremely high while I was there. A Catholic monastery? No, no. Christian? Protestant? Buddhist? Vipassana. Oh, yeah. And... Just while you were talking, it seemed to me that being a Catholic, this thing is pointing to a trinity and not just a duality or a triviality like you said in Hanover.

[08:33]

Can I translate it? So I actually had the experience in England when I lived in a monastery. While I lived there I was extraordinarily happy and it was also a Buddhist monastery. And now that I'm talking about it, I notice that, where I'm also a Catholic, that it's actually not about a duality, but about a trinity or a triviality, as you also mentioned in Hannover. Yeah, because he said, he talked of triviality as the three ways. And it seems that this causes a, I could say it's a lack of not being capable to make a decision. That's what it would be at the superficial level. But it seems to be pointing to, the third thing seems to be a confrontation with compassion. The third way seems to be pointing, at least me, towards something to do with compassion.

[10:05]

Because it seems what I want to run away from living, being a busy person, busyness seems to be a kind of escape as well. Because what I... It seems to me that sometimes the feelings connected with compassion are just too strong. It's great. Here's someone who always says he has nothing to say and yet... In fact, they gave a lecture.

[11:17]

The history of why culture is interested in monasticism is in everything you said. The... The feelings of compassion lead you which way? Toward the monastery or toward usual life? Towards both, actually. Of course, it's a koan, but it's always saying the way to deal with this is more precious And the feelings that are associated with compassion, where do they lead you?

[12:23]

Into the monastery or into everyday life? He actually says, into both. It's like a choir. And after that, it's clearly in the direction of the cross. Yes. It never seems to be enough. Yeah, that's what yearning means. It means actually it's rooted in hungry, to be hungry, to be greedy, to want more. Yeah, but it's wanting more bad. Well, there's three choices you have.

[13:35]

You can enter a monastery. I've got an application form here. You can live your life playing music and with your friends. Those are two choices. And the third choice is just to live the debate. And in effect, whether you enter a monastery or you live a lay life, you are still living the debate. And actually, whether you enter the monastery or live a lay life, both mean to live this debate. I don't want to comment so much, but since I probably won't say this otherwise, let me make a comment. Yeah.

[14:39]

For myself, I would say that I made lay practice work quite well when I was young. Most of the insight and experience that I'm still unfolding came during the years... particularly when it was just individual practice alone as a layperson. Well, but not actually alone. I think of Samuel Barber, the composer, set to music a number of phrases written on the side of illuminated manuscripts.

[15:45]

In the Middle Ages. And they were Irish manuscripts, of course, with our Irish friend here. Anyway, some monk, getting bored with all the illumination, wrote on the side, Alone I came into the world, and alone I shall go from it. Illuminated manuscripts. Yeah, I wonder if I translate that correctly. Do I do that right? No, right? Illuminate, so these are the ones with colors. These are the ones with colors? These are letters.

[16:49]

These light pens, right? Light pens in the Middle Ages? No, in the Middle Ages. No, illuminated manuscripts means they take the letters and they, yeah, and they paint little pictures. You read that and you know the feeling immediately. The other day, day after Christmas, Sophia said to me, Louise, and myself, in bed the day after Christmas, we woke up and Sophia said, Suddenly, more or less out of nowhere,

[18:01]

She said, when you're dead, you're no longer happy. When you're dead, you're no longer sad. There's just nothing. Okay. She's completely comfortable with the idea. That's great. So alone I came into the world, but his mother was there. But it's funny, you know. And certainly I wasn't alone in my practice because Tsukiroshi was sort of the mother of my practice. But the difference I found with, simple difference I found with starting a monastery, Chasahara, in the 60s, Starting it with Suzuki Roshi.

[19:16]

It was a way to practice with others. Practice with others that made for me a very big difference. And find ways to support all of us practicing at that time together with Sukhiroshi. So I think at least in Zen, the contrast between monastic life and lay life, it's also how can I best develop practice, not only of my own, but of others. Maureen? I think that I read this letter, or rather Daniel read it, and said, we have to go there, that's for you.

[20:34]

Because I'm very, very busy, and so busy in my daily life, which makes me very happy, that I, however, to these thoughts that I have in my, how did you have it before, that you change so much in your thoughts, that I don't come to that. So Daniel read the title of the seminar and said we have to go there because that's for you. Because I'm always very busy in my everyday life and I usually do not have the time to wonder in my thoughts. And I just notice when I am here in a group, what you have just learned, that it is very good for me and that this group dynamics in meditation or also in such conversations, that it is good for me and that this is already a stepping out of my daily life for me and such a calm or such a source of strength.

[21:36]

And I noticed that being in the group and experiencing the group dynamic, sitting together and also just talking like this, that that already is a way for me to step out of my everyday life. And it's a kind of source for me to refresh or to have some more power. I wonder about myself. Daniel practices very regularly and I could actually always take part in that. This daily step of what I have to do, to which I sit down and there is this beautiful Quran from you, no where to go, nothing to do. I tell myself that, then I laugh and then I start running. And I always wonder about myself because Daniel is practicing very regularly and I could actually accompany him with that.

[22:40]

But I always tend to just stand there and remember this phrase that you gave us, nowhere else to go, nothing else to do. And then I run off. And I'm happy with saying that. Okay, thanks. Anyone else? Yes. You sort of opposed the teaching of Buddha to science, or you said that practice and science are sort of two poles, and if they don't relate to each other then practice has to adjust. Did I get you right? I wouldn't say two poles, but I said... I said they're... they will be in dialogue with each other... Right. ...more than they... more than they were in China.

[23:41]

But why are they two things on a... on a leather that... that sort of neat? I don't understand. Why are they in... on two separate... Yeah. Okay. The two themes, Zen Buddhism and science, would be in a dialogue. And if... If it turns out that the teaching of Buddhism, or Zen Buddhism, as we practice it, does not meet the criteria of science, then we have to adapt to it. That's what I thought at that time.

[24:46]

And what amazes me is that these two things are somehow standing next to each other in space so far, and then you have to think about whether they are in a dialogue or not. Well, you know, in India, what was comparable to our science was a highly developed logic. And the practice was related to the logic. But it was a logic related to yogic practice, not just to intellectual, philosophical thinking. Okay, so this Indian logic would not have allowed the Chinese, if they'd They were unaware of the developments of Indian logic in China.

[25:57]

So there's two differences that we have. We have a rather developed scientific way of thinking and logical way of thinking, which the Chinese didn't have so much. Well, they had logic, of course, but they really drifted toward beliefs the culture supported. So... Yogacara Buddhism in India would not have accepted the idea of Buddha nature.

[27:01]

Now, we are practicing a form of Chinese Buddhism developed in the Tang and Song dynasties. Now, are we going to accept the idea of Buddha nature or not? Yeah, or reincarnation. Are we going to believe what Chinese Buddhism has given to us, or are we going to apply critical thinking to it? Now, what we have in addition is we can't get away from science. China is a big place with lots of people. Yeah, there were individuals who went to China or individuals who came from India, but a handful of people. And the ones who came from India and said, hey, you guys have got this wrong, as soon as they were dead, they were pushed, their ideas were pushed out of the general consciousness.

[28:10]

And those who came from India and said, hey, you misunderstood this, they were pushed out of their general consciousness as soon as they died. So, I just... Is that clear enough? No? No. I thought you relate to the present situation here in the Western culture, and there we've got now for two or three decades Zen Buddhism as a living practice, and it has been adapted already. and it has a lot of response in our Western civilization more than anywhere else, so there must not be... I cannot think that there is a dialogue, a confrontation between the two, between science and Buddhism. I think they two merge already.

[29:23]

I don't think so. I see. In German, please. I have the impression that we already have a dialogue between these two poles, science and Zen Buddhism. leads to no confrontation. And we have since two or three decades the Zen Buddhism in the western civilization and it is spreading and it finds a lot of positive resonance. And I don't see that these two poles are somehow in opposition. Well, we can't discuss this too much, but I feel maybe in practice it's merged pretty well.

[30:48]

But when I read, excuse me for saying so, most Western Buddhists, they have not really thought through what they're talking about. But for the most part it's not necessary to really think it through because practice works pretty well. But my feeling is, practice will not last in this culture unless we think it through very clearly. It doesn't mean thinking comes first. It means our actual experience comes first. But we can't let subtle false ideas influence that practice. Anyway, maybe we can make this clear as we go along, but someone else.

[32:06]

Yes. Ich habe eine grundsätzliche Frage. Sind wir denn in der Lage, etwas anderes als Phänomene wahrzunehmen? Also ist nicht eine Idee oder eben so etwas wie guter Natur vom Prinzip her nicht ein Konstrukt? So I have a very basic question. Can we perceive anything but phenomena? So is something like Buddha nature, is that not already a construct? You mean an added, something added? It may be that constructs are

[33:08]

in conformance with experience, then it's more acceptable. But this putting together, I think, is always... Do you want to translate yourself? Me? Okay. So the question is, it seems to me that Well, I would be careful about saying construct or putting together because everything is put together. What I think you mean, are we adding something unnecessary? Then let me come back to that. Because if you're adding something that's unnecessary, then is that addition obfuscating?

[34:11]

Confusing? Blocking? Or is it true? When we're yearning for something, what do we want to add? Is it clear or not clear? At this very moment, what are you missing? Someone else want to say something? Caroline? For a long time, or maybe since ever, I was interested in... Since ever. I've known her practically since she was born, but not quite. For a long time, I was interested in this question, who am I?

[35:30]

Maybe others, too. And, you know... there are several or some levels in that. One is this Buddhist aspect of self, and the other is this psychological aspect of identity. And what I ask myself is, well, I want to let it go somehow, this, I don't know, mind created or psychological identity somehow. Is it then fruitful or a hindrance or does it, does it any matter to look at it, to, yeah, at this, you know, this, psychological aspects of identity.

[36:31]

Deutsch, bitte. I always wanted to know who I am. There are two levels for me. The self in the Buddhist sense and the psychological identity or the self. On the one hand I want to get rid of it. Well, to deal with that, Thoroughness was too big a question in the seminar for me. But we do have to swim in our own culture.

[37:35]

And the way we swim in our own culture is by developing a self that works in our own culture. But if you see it as a way of functioning, as a way of giving meaning to your life, but not the whole of your identity, then it's okay. Okay. Now, one second. What you brought up about compassion, I think one of the things we could talk about is what is the difference between... a justice-shame culture, excuse me, a justice-guilt culture and a compassion-shame culture.

[38:46]

I think in the West we live primarily in a culture rooted most fundamentally in justice, not in compassion. And yogic culture is primarily a compassion, shame culture. No, what's the difference? Well, the difference is, of course, in some ways there's very little difference. But a kind of big difference would be You wouldn't try war criminals.

[40:06]

Because if there's a war criminal, Pinochet or something like that, if he doesn't have the conditions to do it again, and he's not going to do it again, you just leave him alone. But in a guilt culture, you're responsible for your actions in the present and into the future, not just the actions anyway. You can see what I mean. So we want to punish you for your actions 20 years later. Because you're still the same person who committed those acts. But in Buddhism, well, yes, but you're not the same person who committed those acts.

[41:18]

And I think if you look at your own past, your own life, do you feel that injustice has been done to you in the past? Someone slighted you or fired you from a job when they shouldn't have and so forth. And there's still part of you that is located there and wishes for justice. That's different than in a compassion culture where it's all different and it all dissolves all the time. These are structures in ourselves.

[42:19]

Okay, someone else? Yes, Marie? So maybe adding to what I've told about my private life before, there's the question, is there a possibility of creating something without being busy? Creating or getting something done without being busy? Well, we'll see. We'll start tonight. Okay.

[43:20]

Yes, that's right. Well, first of all, I'm happy to be here. Thank you. What Valentin said, the question of going to a monastery or live a lay life, I've been dealing with that question quite a lot, but now my private life has changed, as you know, so that's not, cannot be a question anymore right now, because there's no choice other than living a lay life. My practicing practice, that I try to not to convey myself to the face, but just accepting what happens?

[44:28]

For example, when I'm sitting here listening to you, noticing that you're pointing at me, just try to not to... Just accept what's going on. If you bring forward an idea, I try and want to mix it up with my pre-concepts. That's my practice right now. Same in my life. I try to live my life from sitting as much as I can, although I'm always busy with lots of things. German, please. Yes, the question about the ball being thrown up in the middle... How do I get to the monastery? I'm doing a loan practice.

[45:30]

It has occupied me for a very long time and now I don't want to expand my private life so much, but it has changed in a way that the question for me is not so that I don't need to ask myself at the moment, because it is clear that I have responsibilities, children, I can't ask myself that anymore. and I try to propitiate myself or to deal with it in such a way that I accept everything as it comes. That's what I try to do. And not so much to bring it to the things themselves. Also here when listening, I try not to do what I hear with my own... Okay, thank you. Evelyn? I'm quite in a special situation right now I'm really happy to be here every time, to have the chance to be together with you and to share experiences and questions together.

[47:07]

And there is a new person beside of mine and I try also a little bit to translating Italian, what happens here, and what we are doing together, what we are looking for. It's a different feeling. But I like to do it. I like also the... Yeah, I like that chance to try to translate and to open experiences the very the very own one but also that what we are trying to share together right now I was with what Alexander said

[48:10]

That idea, how often I come with an already prepared idea to something another person says. Oh, yeah, that's right, this person said. Oh, no, I think it in a different way. What a good possibility to train here together just to open up the mind, to open up... to talk with curiosity and the awakeness all the colors I am in a special situation as usual I am as always very happy to be here to share experiences with you and to exchange ideas. This time I have a friend on my side who speaks Italian and I try to put together a little bit in Italian what we're talking about, what's going on here.

[49:21]

Sometimes it's not easy and sometimes it works better, sometimes it doesn't. It feels very special. But it's nice. It's nice, this feeling of trying to translate, a translation of a part of life that is very, very important to me, a part of life. And just now Alexander What Alexander said impressed me. I noticed how often it is when someone says something that I jump up with a reaction from my side in my thoughts. Or, no, no, I see it quite differently, to harden my own opinion. I don't want to...

[50:24]

Okay, thank you. Peter? I was with a cauliflower during the first part and all I can bring in now are my cauliflower thoughts. And then, of course, the topic of this seminar went through my head.

[51:35]

And for me, I tried it then, so not busy is for me equanimity. So not being busy means for me equal courage. And... Yes, and then it occurred to me that whenever I ask myself why in the devil's name do I live in this monastery, why do I get up at half past five and so on, and then the question also torments me, that is, to avoid suffering, to avoid Dukkha, not to avoid life, and to ask such questions, So for me, being not busy also has to do with equanimity. And a lot of times I wonder, why on earth do I live in this monastery? Why do I have to get up at 4.30 in the morning? I'm sorry.

[52:51]

No, and then there's the question if to avoid suffering, to avoid dukkha, does that also mean to avoid life? And for me only this practice gives me an experience of equanimity. Yes, then there is a feeling of equanimity that actually withstands a lot of conflict situations. And then there is simply an area where the cold reaction is still there somewhere. And then there's the sense of equanimity that's able to hold very many conflict-bearing situations. But there's also this part that is still caught up in the same patterns.

[53:55]

But that has to do more with my everyday life than with my monastic life. So whether we're in the monastery or in lay life, can we realize the one who is not busy? So let me give you a practice. We're going to stop in a moment. And I just, same practice I gave to you earlier. This acuphrase, the one who, to pause for the particular. This acuphrase, like acupuncture? Yeah. There's a word in English, acumen, acumen. And it literally means to make sharp as a needle.

[55:10]

So it means to have clear insight, good judgment. So it would be a good description of these phrases, acufrasis. Also, wäre das eine gute Umschreibung für diese Wendung, die... Scharfsinnswendung... Nee. Ja, naja, Scharfsinnssatz vielleicht. Phrase. Scharfsinnsphrase. Phrase ist nicht mein Problem, das ist der Scharfsinn. Ja. because this is a particular approach of Zen practice, Zen Buddhism, to create these phrases which enter us into the world, which enter us into phenomena, and which enter us into our own views and habits as well.

[56:19]

So if you really want to use a phrase like this, you really see what it does. So when you pause for the particular, let's say this feels fairly real. There's the particular in your relationship to the particular. Something's happening. There's a perception of the particular. And the particular is giving itself up to the perception. And it's other, but it's also in the field of mind. But it's not other all by itself. Because at each moment we are other than we were a moment ago. So otherness is meeting otherness.

[57:54]

So there's something happening here. It's hard to make words touch it, but yes, something's happening here. Now, do you add anything? What do you add? We notice what you add. So practice with a phrase like this is to notice what you add. And to notice what's taken away. Now I often also say in this our Dharma Sangha teachings that space connects. We think we're separated by space, but space also connects. There's a field here we're all participating in.

[58:57]

We're, as I say, use the phrase already connected. So if there's also connectedness, When we pause for the particular, what's the connectedness? This basic, very simple experience really holds schools of Buddhism turned on. Whole schools of Buddhism turn on such basic experience. And when Valentin mentioned my use of the word trivia the other day, in English, it of course means three roads, tri, via. And it's come to mean unimportant, it's trivial.

[60:12]

But that's clearly a loss of its original sense. Original sense. Which is that you're on a road and you've come to a choice. So the word in the way it was created must have been first used. But the smallest thing is always a choice. In every particular, there's actually a choice. And are you making that choice? Are you just gliding along in your views?

[61:12]

What's wrong with gliding along? It's fun. At the same time, it's sometimes good to pause for the particular. Okay. Thank you very much. Vielen Dank.

[61:35]

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