Well, recently there have been, like in the last week or so, several subjects that have come up that are interesting subjects. One is the subject of depression. Another is, what's the, what's the, oh you can't hear me, well, you should be able to. You should be able to. Is that better? Is that better? Yes. So, what is the purpose of routine, so to speak? So, there was a third one, actually a fourth one, I have a little list.

[01:19]

Yeah, the third one was, in our practice, one of the ways that we practice is through having a position within our practice. Each one of us, when we are members of the Sangha, and these two go together, one is routine, which is, I don't think of it as routine, but it's our daily rhythm of practice. I think of it as rhythm rather than routine. And the position that we hold within the Sangha that gives us some connection to the Sangha and helps the Sangha to work. Sometimes we need cooks to, we always need cooks, you know, helpers in the kitchen, and

[02:39]

it's one great way to enliven your practice and to support everyone else's practice. Somebody, yesterday I gave a talk, and I said that the reason that I come to Zazen here is to encourage everybody's practice. That's the main reason why I'm here, is to encourage everyone's practice. I'm not here to give you words of wisdom or make you think that I'm some great guy or something. I just come here to encourage everybody. My talks are always to encourage you to practice. That's all I do. And I spill over here and there, but still. And the reason why we all come is to encourage each other to practice. This is called saving all beings. And the encouragement that we give to each other has far-reaching effect in the world.

[03:49]

The encouragement that we give to each other allows each one of us to give encouragement to people within our sphere of activity, which gives encouragement to people to encourage people in their spheres of activity. And it just goes out in continuing circles. So we don't really know the far-reaching effects of our practice, and we don't peek. I don't peek to see what the effect is of our practice. I'm just in the boiler room, showing off. That's the way I sometimes characterize our practice. There's somebody up in this... up above steering the boat. But we're all down here in the hold, shoveling coal. That's the way they used to drive the ship. But the ship gets going. It goes where it's supposed to.

[04:56]

So those are very connected. Those two subjects are very connected. But the first one about depression is what I want to talk about. Depression, you know, just goes back to Shakyamuni Buddha's first sermon, The Vulnerable Truth. So we always have to keep coming back. And I'm trying to understand the meaning of the Four Noble Truths. Noble means someone who has enlightenment. When one has enlightenment, they belong to the society of those noble ones. So it's not nobility in worldly sense.

[05:59]

It's nobility in Buddhist sense. Meaning selfless, basically selfless. So, you know, Buddha says life is subject to suffering. One of the conditions of life is called suffering. We usually use that term to cover everything. Life is suffering. Well, life has a tendency toward suffering. And suffering is one of the conditions of our life. But joy is also one of the conditions of our life. The old Buddhists sometimes felt that even joy was suffering. But if you have joy, just experience joy.

[07:02]

Have joy. If you have suffering, just experience suffering as suffering. But within suffering is joy. And within joy is suffering. So it's not like joy is suffering. Joy is joy. It's like bittersweet. I think in Japan they call it wabi-sabi. Bittersweet. And then the second truth is there's a reason why suffering... There's a reason for those conditions. And what sets up the conditions for suffering is our... desire, delusions, ignorance, stupidity, and volitional action called karma.

[08:11]

Volitional action meaning habit energy. Basically we set up the conditions for habit energy. And when we set up the conditions for unwholesomeness, then this is the way our life goes and picks up speed and picks up conditions. More conditions which creates a situation of pain that we call suffering. Pain is pain and suffering is something else. But because we equate pain with suffering, we think that pain is suffering. But pain is not always suffering. When we don't like it, it's called suffering. Think about that. So Shakyamuni is called the great doctor. He analyzed the condition, the sickness and the illness. And these are the first two noble truths.

[09:16]

Suffering and its cause. That's the diagnosis. The diagnosis is too much desire. Desire that is thwarted. Desire that actually causes pain. Look, you know, when you grab a hot iron, you feel the pain, right? So this is a condition for suffering. And then he talks about the cure. Well, the cure is... The third truth is there are many dharmagates to liberation from suffering. You know, sometimes the books will call it extinction of suffering. And you think that there's something called extinction of suffering. But actually, it's not how you extinguish suffering, but how you relate to it. Which is much more reasonable.

[10:22]

If we keep trying to extinguish suffering, you just give up. Extinguish suffering sounds great. Yes, that's wonderful. But have you done that? Has anybody done it? No. You don't extinguish suffering. There's something called transformation. The energy that... The same energy that goes into suffering is the same energy that releases you from suffering. So it's not extinction exactly. It's more like transformation. Using the energy that goes into suffering to release you from suffering. And then the fourth truth is...

[11:26]

They say the Eightfold Path, which is great. But actually, all of the practices of Buddhism, the Eightfold Path is really good. The Six Prajnaparamitas is the same thing. A lot of formulaic aspects to Buddhism. So if we practice the practices of Buddhism, we will find a way to not be dominated by suffering. Suffering is actually very valuable. If we try to get rid of suffering, we think that suffering is wrong or bad, and we shouldn't be doing it. So right there is another cause of suffering. Trying to get rid of suffering is a cause of suffering. Sorry. So how do we let go of our concept?

[12:29]

Because suffering is a concept. There are two kinds of suffering. One is suffering that comes from conditions that are not under our control. And then there is the suffering that comes from our volitional actions, called karma. Karma means a volitional action. That's all. And there is a volitional action which is beneficial. There is a volitional action which is unbeneficial. So to cultivate the beneficial karma, karma action is a good thing. To cultivate the ones that are not so good leads to suffering. So when we practice the path, these are the elements that lead to liberation rather than suffering. So that's pretty formulaic as far as Buddhism goes. So what is depression? Depression is a form of suffering.

[13:36]

And it's like a cloud. It's like a weight, a cloud. And it can come from your childhood, it can come from various circumstances, at any time and any place. It can come from outside conditions or inner conditions. But it's a weight and it keeps our light actually from illuminating. For example, when I was younger, I think when I was a kid I was pretty depressed, having to go to school. When I was in junior high, I had lots of friends, boyfriends and girlfriends. And we all had a really good time with each other. And our backgrounds didn't matter at all.

[14:41]

We never thought about our family backgrounds. That didn't mean anything. We were just kids, playing. And then when we got into high school, everything changed. All of the kids were aware of their backgrounds, their financial status, their clothes, their family relationships and all this. And I was left out in the cold, totally left out in the cold. I was a poor kid, Jewish. I didn't care about what kind of clothes I was wearing. I didn't have any connections with families or businesses. And I was wondering about all these kids, the way their families brought them up. Which is not the way I was brought up. In high school, I was totally depressed the whole time. And sometimes people say to me, whenever I ask you how you are, you always say,

[15:47]

OK, I'm OK, and I mean it. But they say, how can you always say that you're OK? Well, during my first 35 years of life, I was in the service and then I came out. That was pretty good. I wasn't so depressed in the service. But when I came out, and I was an artist, I couldn't get what I wanted. But I have to say this. I always felt that life itself was supporting me. I always had the feeling that life itself was supporting me. Although I had depression, I never had despair that I can remember. Because I remember not having any money when I was going to school. I was going to school in the G.I. Bill.

[16:48]

And since my last penny was gone, some check from some place would arrive. And I was saved. And this always kept happening. So I always felt that I had a fairy godmother somewhere that was protecting me. So I could never get too depressed. But life was depressing. And unsatisfactory, let's put it that way. One of the terms for suffering is unsatisfactoriness. Things are not quite the way you want them to be. So the formula is not being with people you want to be with is suffering. Being with people you don't want to be with is suffering. Not having what you want is suffering.

[17:55]

And having what you don't want is suffering. That's basically the quartet. Sorry. So, sometimes I was with people I wanted to be with. Sometimes, you know, it was a mixtape. But I was always looking for something. I was always... When I was 25, I rediscovered God. And that was very powerful. And I was in a euphoric state for years. But somehow my karma overshadowed that. But that was still there. The search was still there. But my karma was always overshadowing it. And I remember smoking pot when I was young.

[18:59]

And when I first smoked it, it felt euphoric. But after a while it became depressing. So, I couldn't get out from under the depression. And I was still looking for a way to get out of my depression. And then I discovered this practice when I was 35. And as soon as I discovered the practice, I let go of the pot. I let go of my depression. And the practice was always supporting me. So, how was the practice supporting me? The practice was supporting me because I gave myself totally to the practice. Of course. It's not like there's some practice out there supporting me. Because I gave myself to the practice totally, I was supported.

[20:06]

You know, the universe meets you halfway. When you decide you're going to do something, the universe meets you halfway. It may not be 50-50, but... But it is halfway. So, in my early days of practice, I could also be depressed for various reasons. I still had my old karma. My old karma was, you know, traveling along with me into my practice. But I learned to put my arm around my old karma, you know, and not blame my karma. Not blame my bad actions. Not judge myself. But simply see everything clearly as it is.

[21:09]

This is very important. And sometimes people allow the depression to overpower their faith. I always had a very strong faith in whatever I was doing. But I always had total faith in the practice. I had faith in my teacher. I had faith in the practice and what we were doing. So, no matter how difficult... You know, I remember one time... I've told you this before. I said to... I thought I was failing. I went to Suzuki Rush and said, Do you think that I should continue practicing? And he said, Oh, you mean it's not difficult enough for you? To me, that was my turning point.

[22:10]

Without the difficulty, there's no practice. If you feel everything's just fine, there's no difficulty. There's something wrong. As Douglas says in Kim Chul Kwan, If you think that everything is just... Is that paraphrasing? If you think that everything is just fine, something's missing. So, our life is a never-ending succession of sufferings and recovery. Suffering and recovery is like the two steps. Suffering and recovery, suffering and recovery. And suffering is so valuable because this is where our lesson comes in. We learn our lessons through our sufferings. The problem is that we think that when we have our suffering, that there's no end to that suffering.

[23:17]

And that's what causes depression. Because we think there's no way out of the suffering. And it's always going to be there. Well, suffering of one kind or another will be there. Just like, you know, it's always going to rain, we hope. The problem that we have is that we start judging ourself. And we start judging our suffering. And we start judging the conditions. When I started the practice, I realized that Zazen itself is our teacher. When we really devote ourselves to Zazen, we allow ourselves to go through a lot of pain and difficulty without creating suffering. Sometimes people say, in my experience in Zazen, I just hate it.

[24:19]

There's nothing to hate. What is there to hate? What is there to dislike? I can remember many times thinking, after a period of Zazen, I'll never do this again. How did I get myself into this? And then at the bell rings, after a long period of suffering, and you stand up, and do Qin Hen, and then you sit down again, and do another period of Zazen. But it's very interesting, because the next period of Zazen is totally different than the preceding period of Zazen. Totally different. You think it's going to be the same, but it's not. It might be worse. So,

[25:22]

at some point, you just have to let go. This is the wonderful teaching of Zazen. You just let go. You know, our practice is called Shikan Taza. Dogen called it Shikan Taza, which means just giving up, or just letting go. It's not one of the forty meditation practices of Buddhism. It's simply letting go. Letting go has various aspects, but it's totally letting go, and totally sitting down again. Totally letting go, and totally sitting down again. Totally sitting down again. So, totally letting go means just that. We say sometimes, just die on the cushion.

[26:25]

One of the things that we're really afraid of, you know, in our life, is called dying. But, everybody does it. Isn't that interesting? Everybody does it. Everybody goes into the tunnel. Well, wait a minute. I'm not ready. I have this wonderful book that somebody gave me. It's all in Spanish, but it's about death and dying. And it's got these wonderful pictures, Mexican illustrations, you know, of these people dancing and their skeletons, you know. Big teeth. And pictures, Guerrero's illustrations. There's one guy who's carrying this big bundle of stuff, you know. And somebody, the Grim Reaper is tapping him on the shoulder.

[27:29]

He's looking at me, wait a minute, wait a minute. But, you know, this is happening all the time. All the time. One of the problems, big problems we have with suffering is when we see it all around us. Like right now, you know, the whole Middle East is erupting in change, which causes suffering. Big suffering all around us. And suffering in our country as well. Everywhere. It's like on fire. So how do we handle that? You know, one way we handle it is I don't read the paper anymore, you know. I don't listen to the news anymore. That's terrible. You have to listen to the news, you have to read the paper, you have to know what's going on in the world, and suffer. You know, sansen is not just

[28:36]

being euphoric or something, it's being real. There's pain, there's pleasure, there's all the whole gamut of human feelings in sansen. And we have to experience them all. There's no special state of mind. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, how can you, you know, we're not doing this to feel good. How can you be doing this to feel good when people are suffering all over the world? If we were just doing this to feel good, it wouldn't be worth much. We sit sansen and we practice in order to experience reality. So we have to be aware

[29:37]

of all the suffering in the world. But what do we do with it? That's big go on. What do we do with all that suffering? The person next to you is suffering. Everybody in this room has some suffering. But somehow, you know, we come here and it helps us deal with our suffering somehow. So, at the same time that we feel compassion, compassion means to suffer with. We suffer with, but we don't get caught by the suffering. This is the most important. To not get caught by the suffering

[30:40]

and yet to respond to it. And this is how we live our life. This is what zazen is about. Zazen is about to feel the pain without turning it into suffering. By saying, I don't want this. As soon as you say, I don't want this, or I don't like this, or it shouldn't be there, or I'd rather have, that's the cause of suffering. So, to just experience everything completely, to experience our feelings, our thoughts, our disposition, whatever comes up, to experience completely without being caught by it. Then we can have ease. And we can relate to suffering without being caught by it.

[31:41]

We can relate to people's pain without being inundated by it. If you allow all the pain in the world to come and suck you up, you'll explode. You can't get up. A doctor in the battlefield has to work without getting caught by what they see or work with. A person conducting a funeral has to be able to do that without being caught by by feeling emotions and feelings, without being inundated by them. When you visit a person who's dying,

[32:44]

you shouldn't be crying. Your calmness will calm the person who's dying. So, to save the world, we have to find our calm mind. Our deep, deep, calm mind. Joyful mind is very deep and has nothing to do with conditions. Calm mind is very deep and has nothing to do with conditions. Nothing can throw you off. When you reach that calm mind, that joyful mind, which is very deep, nothing can upset you, even though you may be upset. It doesn't mean that you are impervious to conditions.

[33:47]

It means that you're not caught by them. And the more suffering you experience with people, the deeper you go to find your true Self. Which is not moved or thrown off or upset by the conditions. Otherwise, you're not useful to people. Because when you help people in that way, it helps them to find their deeper Self. Their true Self. Instead of simply being tossed around by conditions. So this is how our practice helps people. It may not look like help.

[34:49]

I'm not sure that anybody knows how to help people. But simply by finding our deeper Self and relating to people through our deeper Self, our true Self, helps people. I remember Suzuki Roshi saying, just do your practice. And then when you get up from the cushion, just go out and do your life. And don't think too much about it. Thank you. Do you have any questions?

[35:56]

Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. This is a very valuable talk for me. But I'm puzzling about how to fully experience empathetic emotions, say, with a dying person or something, and not getting caught by them. It feels to me as though the not getting caught by them means to tamp them down. And I need to know why not. That's getting caught by yourself. Tamping them down is to be caught by yourself. To thoroughly understand. You know, I understand your feeling. I understand where you are. So that you have a companion that understands what's happening with you, who allows you to express what's happening to you

[36:59]

and accepts that. That's not being caught. Being caught is oh, you poor thing. Oh, that's being caught. That's not understanding. That's, you know, just expressing your own sympathies. There's a way of expressing sympathy which is not being too sweet. You know, chocolate is too sweet. You get tired of it. There's something foley about it. Chocolate is bitter. But just enough, you know, sweetening to make it palatable is the best kind of chocolate. Don't you think so? Maybe you don't. So, tamping down is your attachment

[38:00]

to not wanting to express yourself. That's not attachment. Non-attachment is being totally with the person. I'm not thinking so much about what I say and express to the other person. I'm thinking about the internal feelings. Well, you know, where are your feelings? It can be anything. Your feelings can be anything. The main thing is you're paying attention to that other person. You can feel all kinds of stuff, but you're, you know, your concern is with the other person, not so much with your own feelings. You don't want to tamp them down, but you have to be circumspect in what you're expressing so you don't upset the person by your own feelings. What about crying in that scenario? If the physiological aspect of crying

[39:01]

would then disturb them to... When crying, totally cry. And then when it's over, totally stop. I can do that. When you do something totally, then there's some propriety about that. Yeah. when you talk about depression, when you talk about depression, I think it might be helpful to distinguish between unhappiness, sadness, sorrow, frustration. Distinguish between that and depression. Yeah, that's right. Well, there are many unhappy states of mind. I was talking about

[40:05]

despair. There are many unhappy states of mind which can lead to despair. That's true. That would be a whole subject in itself. Depression and when you really mean unhappy situations and depression. That's not the same. It's really not the same because as you said, there's some hope there. There's something that is going to be or in your case that was there somehow. You had some trust in that and people in general kind of struggle to get out of their unhappy states and after a while they probably do or at least better. But the other kind is not like that. Well, I was thinking I think people

[41:07]

may be confused that you can just maybe get yourself out of everything. Yeah, there are those various states. That's true. And depression is one of them. But you know I think depression is a little different. I don't know how different it is but talking about it as itself is like being under the cloud as I said. It's also like being under water. So you see you can see that the water has a surface but you can't reach the surface and so you're always under the water. And so it's like if you broke the surface and got above the surface that's called clarity or fresh air and that may be hard to breathe or hard to accept

[42:08]

because often in our depressions we depend on the depression for security. This is a big problem. We depend on the depression for security and we don't it's too hard to breathe the fresh air or just to breathe or to see the light. So that's kind of what I mean by depression. When one's attached to one's state of mind it's familiar. That's right. Attached to your state of mind. Because it's it's familiar and somehow it's not mixed up with one's sense of identity. That's right. You identify with it. And so that's why It's not the same as as as a condition that's that's beyond sort of reasoning out of. That's different. And so it's just the use of this term that bothers me. Maybe Bob

[43:11]

could speak to that because people I think it's important for people to understand that there's a kind of self-help kind of depression and there's a kind of I think people do understand it. issue. Yeah. I think everybody here understands that. Yeah. I don't know if this would work with what's called clinical depression but in my daily life when I realize I'm in a depressed state if I pay attention to what I'm doing it disappears. Yes. That may not be a depressed state. But it feels like you're kind of under a cloud. You know that's why it's good to take a walk you know go swimming when you get something like that you're swimming around and you get out and your mind is bright and clear

[44:12]

and your whole body feels bright and clear. So you know that's a kind of practice. There are practices that you can do that that will help you to do that to have clarity. And one of them is called does it. Paying attention. Yeah. It's like when you're not quite present. Right. That's really a key is when you're not quite present. Yeah. It has time to stop. It has time to

[44:55]

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