Good evening, everyone. Sorry, there had to be a one-week lapse in this class. But it also enabled me to just dig in again sort of afresh in the last few days. I know there are a number of people who are not community meeting about the apartment complex that they're thinking of building on the corner. So a number of people are there, and I think that's appropriate. So for the last first two weeks of this class, we focused on the hindrances, the five hindrances. and I will review them for you.

[01:03]

For the next two weeks, we will be attending to the seven factors of enlightenment. And both of these are in the fourth foundation of mindfulness, which is mindfulness of the dharmas. And there's a list of the dharmas, as I've said, are basically dharma systems. And so they include the hindrances, the Four Noble Truths, the aggregates, which we chant in the Heart Sutra, and the factors of enlightenment. I think that might be it. But they're just exemplary of a whole range of dharma systems or systems of teaching that we have, which would include, say, the paramitas and the eight awarenesses of great beings, which I think

[02:10]

we did for some study session, maybe it was last year, I can't remember. Anyway, so this, we're focusing in on the five hindrances and the seven factors of enlightenment, which are included within this fourth foundation of mindfulness, the mindfulness of the dharmas. To remind you of the five hindrances, and we won't spend a lot of time on them. The first is sensory desire. The second is... Sensory desire is basically physical desire, yearning, lust, and various strong physical feelings that come through our body. The second is ill will. which is all the thoughts related to hostility, resentment, wanting to push something away, and hatred and bitterness.

[03:19]

The third factor, the third hindrance is sloth and torpor. I'm looking at research and talking about sloth and torpor He really kind of dug down on that word torpor, which is a pretty good word. So it's this kind of heaviness of our body and the dullness of our mind, which kind of drags you down into inertia and despond. and depression. The fourth, the fourth hindrance is restlessness and worry. I think what Sochin called it was worry and flurry, which is another way of, it's often framed.

[04:22]

It's like, so the worryness, you know, is just this kind of pervasive cloud of anxiety that is familiar to many of us. And the flurry is just kind of neurotic busyness or activity, you know, trying to dispel the anxiety, trying to dispel our discomfort by, you know, whipping around quickly. And then the fifth hindrance is what I call skeptical doubt. which is kind of the absence of any trust or conviction about what's wholesome and what's unwholesome. It's just that quality of mind that undermines, even undermines your common sense.

[05:28]

So this is So those are the five hindrances, just to review them, and I really like this, we talked about this tool for how to work with them that comes from the insight meditation community, the Vipassana community. I got it from Gil Fronsdale's website, but I think it's pretty common to that whole approach. So the formula was, if you remember, it was RAIN, which is to recognize when a hindrance, when you're experiencing hindrance to recognize it, And then the A is to accept it. In other words, not reject it, not push it away or try to suppress it.

[06:29]

The I is to investigate, to be curious. I remember that our sister Amelie Scott used to talk about just really investigating if something comes up that's painful in your mind or body, just investigate really but that investigation means really looking at like where is it located what's the quality if it's a pain what's the quality of it is it aching is it sticking you know is it grasping you know there's there's a quality to every kind of pain that we have um and so that's investigate r-a-i and then the fourth one is non-identification. It means just recognizing that whatever you're experiencing is not who you are.

[07:35]

It's not an identity. Don't cling to it. Don't make it about me. It's like it's my pain, my discomfort, my hindrance, whichever one may manifest. But to recognize that this is a phenomenon that I may have to be responsible for, but it's not who I am necessarily. It's a matter of choice as to whether one makes that one identifies with it or not, and the encouragement here is to non-identify. So does that all make sense? Before I move on, any thoughts or questions? I just thought I'd delve a little bit into non-identify as a solution to a hindrance that comes up. I'm reminded of people, a friend of mine, who would have relationships with men and with women, and she would come to me,

[08:38]

committed lesbian, or I'm a committed hetero, again, you know, like this, and she would become the relationship she was having, in that sense, she would identify herself, and it seems to me that the drama of life and the difficulty of identifying self, or being comfortable with a knowledge of self, or an understanding of self, makes these sort of things really easy to do. I mean, I just had a... a bad run-in with my boss, I'm a terrible employee, how am I ever going to get out of this?" Self-identifying. Right. I don't know, though. I'm curious what people think. I can't say whether these identifications and non-identifications are easy or not easy. It's kind of, sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's really hard.

[09:39]

Sometimes there's something that gets pointed out to you that's a hindrance and it's really easy to let go of. And it may come up again. And sometimes it's just like, I'm caught there. You know, I'm just sort of stuck, nailed on that spot. And the same thing was true, I think, in a certain way the same thing was true with non-identification. I'm not sure that that's a Zen perspective on that fourth element. It's not a question of... Yes, you don't identify necessarily with anything, but at the same time, if one's practice is to include everything, to me that means including the

[10:40]

that this identification has a sticky quality and, you know, I'm kind of, oh, that's a place where I'm caught and I can't necessarily get rid of it. I can't just simply do a practice that makes me not identify with it. Does that make sense? Are you saying if you're obnoxious, you're obnoxious whether you believe it or not? Not necessarily. What I think is Whether you believe it or not. I mean, are you truly that being for that time? No, I'm not. Yes, you were that being for that time. If you were obnoxious, you're obnoxious in that moment. And if you have a pattern towards obnoxiousness, then probably that's a pathway that you're very familiar with and you're likely to go there again and again. But it's not necessarily who you are. And at any given point, I think the strength of this practice is that at any given point, you can see that tendency and you can say, no, I don't want to go that way.

[11:58]

But it seems like the value of this little acronym is that to go through each part of it. Yeah. You can't just suddenly go to non. No, you really can't. What you're saying about making choices comes through recognizing and accepting it and investigating it. Right. So that's very much, you know, I've been talking for the last few years about the three tenets of the peacemakers, which are of not knowing, bearing witness, and my gloss on the third one is an appropriate response. I think that's actually the same. It's the same thing. First, you answer, it's like, what's going on here? I don't know what's going on here. Let me just recognize that I don't really know. I haven't got a decision at the top of the event. And so then I'm going to bear witness. I'm going to investigate it. You know, it sort of conflates a couple of these steps.

[13:03]

And then there's a response. Non-identification, you know, maybe there needs to be another letter on that word, because from the non-identification we still have to go forward and act in an enlightened way in the world, right? Why is non-identification not enlightenment? For you, you're saying that that is not part of our tradition. No, I'm not saying it's not part of our tradition, actually. But you said inclusion is the greater sort of... No, actually, I don't want to speak for the tradition, I'm speaking for myself. And I'm speaking for what I gather, I'm gathered for my teachers and I would say inclusion, including the sticky tendency towards identification.

[14:09]

That that's also an expression of Buddha nature. It's part of being alive. Does that make sense? That's the equation of samsara and... Yeah, I think so. Depending upon how you look at it, you know, what lens you're looking through, samsara can be samsara and or samsara can be nirvana. Can you give an example of samsara? Yes. The example is, I'm going to be 69 years old in a couple of years. I can't believe that. I don't feel that old mentally at this point, which I am really grateful for.

[15:12]

Physically, sometimes I do, but I can't believe that I've gotten to this point. in that non-belief so the non-belief is like not knowing in a way and then bearing witness to what i feel capable of and what i don't feel capable of and then the the third tenet is a is a um an appropriate response and so but in order to have appropriate response to get back to this question of perception or mindfulness you know if I in the moments when I think of that age as really old and tilting towards the grave and

[16:15]

on the cusp of losing my abilities, which is inevitable, if I see things through that lens, I am in samsara. Right? If you know that's your current outcome. Right. It's like, it's like, it's all fucking downhill from here. You know, it's like, I mean, that can be samsara. If I think, wow, I'm alive. now, and I've made it this far, and my capacity right now is to do X or Y, and I'm enjoying that, as actually, literally, I'm enjoying being with you, then that's nirvana. The situation is not the so-called objective situation, which does not really exist. It's not changed.

[17:17]

It's the same either way. And it's just a question of what lens I'm looking through. So if I go to the first one, then I am being, uh, I'm in the thrall of the hindrances and go to the second one. than, sooner or later I'm going to get to, the factors of enlightenment. But what I would say, this is where John was asking to me, enlightenment is not a state of mind. Enlightenment is an activity. So it's all very nice for me to non-identify But that's a moment. That's a momentary perception. And everybody has those moments, but in the next moment, we have to do something.

[18:19]

And that's, to me, the test of so-called enlightenment. Can you do the same thing with Auschwitz? Can I do the same thing with Auschwitz? Bringing the nirvana some sorrow. I have done it, if you'd like me to dare. Sure, go ahead. I've been saying this very same thing for years, in fact. It wasn't until Hitler and the communication machine around Hitler was established that we recognized how blind we were to our jingoism, how blind we were to our racism, how blind we were to our negation of other humans. On the tale of Hitler came, women's rights, what do you call it, black... Civil rights. Civil rights, thank you. And so on, recognizing that, wow, we're not going to ever forget, we're going to look for it everywhere, we're going to make sure we root it out.

[19:22]

So I think, yes, absolutely. It was a call of the whole human body saying, there's something very sick here, and it's got to pustulate and pop, but we're going to fix it. So that's how I see it. Yeah that's interesting. Yeah I think for me it's a question of what has to be careful with that equation. What has to be careful with what? With the equation of the nirvana. Samsara. Yeah you were the one who brought that up I didn't. It's part of your idea the Zen tradition or the Mahayana tradition of that inclusiveness that's what I was referring to that. And that is an equation in the Mahayana tradition of Nibbana Samsara. That's not something that I brought up. That is a very basic feature that we're working with here. Right, but what it means... Non-duality. Right. So, that is... That's good. It gets us to actually the factors of enlightenment.

[20:23]

I have a question. You said enlightenment is not a state of mind, but it's an activity. To me. Yeah, because it seems like it's kind of both. That's not the way Dogen talks about it. If you want to go back to Dogen, You know, he's talking about practice realization. And so he, his premise is that we don't practice to become enlightened, which is actually the, you know, the vector of most of Buddhism and most religions, right? He's saying we practice because we are enlightened, then we practice. So practice is the activity, it's the active expression of our enlightened nature which is inherent to us.

[21:36]

I was kind of hearing the same sort of whatever division going on. It's like non-identification becomes a lens or a springboard and activity becomes the expression of enlightenment is generated by that lens right so rather than think that non-identification is strictly speaking the reality we're taking it as we're taking it as a lens i'm just suggesting that you know it may ultimately be the reality but we don't live in the ultimate we live in these bodies you know with our strengths and our weaknesses and you know, our individual expressions and our, you know, completely unique fingerprints. So, you know, in one sense, John was pointing this out, in one sense, there's a thrust, particularly of Mahayana Buddhism, of everything being equal, you know, and frankly, the mush of we're all one.

[22:49]

But that's not the whole of it. So anyway let me go on. So the factors of enlightenment are known as the Bojanga. I keep thinking of Mr. Bojanga. I can't help it. You know it's like There's a song to be rewritten there. So that word is composed of two parts. The first is, the Bo part is as in Bodhi. And then the second part is Anga. So Bodhi means enlightenment, as we know. Anga means limb, sort of like an arm or a leg. That's what's considered factor. Sometimes it's translated as the seven limbs of enlightenment.

[23:54]

no I mean I think it's I think it's actually the word is quite physical you know it's not it's like really like arms and legs you know but these are the elements that you know the necessary pieces of our body that allow us to function so it's translated as factors of enlightenment these factors are mindfulness or sati investigation of the dharmas which is dhammavichaya, energy, virya, happiness or rapture, piti, p-i-t-i, calmness, which is pasadi, concentration or meditation, which is samadhi, and equanimity, which is upeka. So, just to note that there's all kinds of redundancies and overlaps with other systems of dharma that we know.

[25:14]

So, for example, the Eightfold Path, you have right effort, vīrya, you have right mindfulness to sati, you have right concentration to samadhi. So that's already quite a number of the points of the Eightfold Path that you find in these seven factors. And in the Paramitas, it's always been an interesting discussion that I've had with Sojan over the years. I've generally i like the paramitas as a system and he uh is a little more inclined towards the same factors of enlightenment you know just uh it's just what we lean towards it's not really any different but in the paramitas you have uh you have energy you have meditation you have

[26:25]

forbearance or endurance, which is kind of, I think it's quite related to calmness and equanimity. And you have in the investigation of the dharmas, some of the dharmas that you investigate are the precepts. So you have that under shila and the paramitas. And so there's just a lot of overlap in these systems. But one of the things that I find interesting about the seven factors... So, it's just this kind of Hall of Mirrors effect. So, the seven factors of enlightenment occur within the foundation of mindfulness, that is the the fourth foundation, mindfulness of the Dharma. So it's, and among the Dharmas is, systems of Dharma, are the seven factors of enlightenment.

[27:33]

And the first, so this is within the overall practice of mindfulness, and then the first factor of enlightenment is mindfulness. So, I don't necessarily want to make a lot of that, but it's kind of the way these Buddhist systems sort of have points of congruency. So again, mindfulness, investigation, energy, happiness or rapture, calmness, concentration, and equanimity. So in the In the suttas, in the Pali suttas, these are presented in two contexts. In the suttas themselves, these are wholesome, mundane factors.

[28:41]

Mundane meaning... Mundane is kind of equivalent to the way we use relative. And super mundane is equivalent to the way you use absolute. Does that make sense? I'm confused. Mundane strikes me as something completely different. Yeah, well, what it means is it's like these are everyday qualities that we can cultivate in our everyday life of good and bad, of preference and non-preference and so on. Well, ordinary. Yeah, ordinary. Mundane is ordinary. Whereas supramundane, supramundane means they are in that sense factors which are directly relevant to states of meditation, not your everyday activity.

[29:45]

And so these are, but in a way it's like I've talked about this before. If you think about bodhisattva practices, if you think about, for example, the bodhisattvas for embracing dharmas, which are generosity, kind speech, beneficial action, and acting in identity. So, on a mundane, in the mundane sense, These are a set of practices that we can cultivate in order to move our life in a more wholesome direction. Does that make sense? What do you mean by cultivate? We can keep in mind. It's like, oh, generosity, you know, when I see that homeless person on the street who's selling street spirits, you know, and there's part of me that

[30:55]

is inclined to walk by and there's part of me that's inclined to stop and give her a dollar and make contact and if i am holding these uh qualities in mind that's mindful that mindfulness factor which i'll get to it's that's where i have an opportunity to cultivate so so is that something you've said a number of times that mindfulness is not just paying attention it's mindfulness of the dharmas yeah is that an example of that yes yeah i mean that's not necessarily what everybody has to do but everybody there's some you you can even call i don't know a twinge or response of your conscience is is cultivation you know it's like do i i mean it it can be as simple as noticing the inclination to just walk by, and intervening with that.

[32:02]

Saying, you know what, I don't have to walk by, I'm not in a rush, and I have a dollar. And just stopping and enacting that. Does that make sense? Yes, it's like reminding ourselves. Right, reminding. So that's exactly what, I've said this, I've been really having some Reminding, remembering, recollecting is the actual meaning of the word sati. Mindfulness, there's something precious and perhaps, dare I say, Christian about, I don't know if that's true, but there's something precious about mindfulness as if it is something pure and not active. Yeah, to me it sounds very misleading. Because it's like our tendency to wait until we get to a certain point before we jump in to do something, whereas if you remind yourself constantly, you can respond to reminding yourself. Yeah, yeah. It should be mind slash action, sorry.

[33:05]

Could you say again what the R's were? Reminding, remembering... Recollecting. Wait, is that right? Yes. Recognizing, sorry. Oh, not recollecting. In rain? No, in... No, you just said... Oh, those R's. Okay, sorry. Yes, remembering, recollecting, reminding. What's the difference between remembering and recollecting? I don't think it's... I think, in a sense, It's interesting because it goes back to this question of the limbs of enlightenment. Remembering, like screw your arm back on, put your head on right, get all the members in the right place.

[34:07]

And the same thing with recollecting is like the scattered pieces gathering them together. Right? So it's the same. What's the difference between recollecting and remembering? There's no difference. I'm just using different translations of the word sati, and it's a critique of the translation of sati as mindfulness. I also wanted to comment about action versus bringing it to mind, and I'm now forgetting what I was going to say. Okay. I notice there's some people who are speaking. There are a lot of people. I can leave mine on. Yeah, just I want to make sure that you feel welcome to to jump in. So what I want to do to, you know, the rest of today is talk about the factors of enlightenment kind of in a

[35:18]

in a broad way and then perhaps next time focus in on them individually. There seems to be a conventional way of looking at these factors of enlightenment that's interesting to me. The first factor is mindfulness. I think it's proposed that the development of mindfulness is kind of both the prerequisite and the condition for the development of all the other factors of enlightenment. And so mindfulness having the ability to notice what's going on in your mind and body in any given moment also has the function of bringing other energies, practice, awarenesses to bear so that you are constantly able to return to balance.

[36:39]

So I think that's one of the things that also seems to be inherent in mindfulness is it's it's constantly providing the tools for rebalancing ourselves. And this balance, we'll see as we discuss, it pertains to the hindrances, but it also pertains to both the quality and the quantity of the factors of enlightenment. That may be a little abstract, but that's what I'm about to explain. So, mindfulness, you can never have, all the commentaries agree, you can never have too much mindfulness. Is it the tool or kind of like the ground? I guess, you know, if I'm aware and I'm working with the fact that I'm experiencing sloth in my life or something like this, by being aware and visiting in with the experience and visiting in with the conditions and things like this, I mean,

[37:48]

Without that, it seems like I'm kind of running in a circle trying to make up a story to fix it. But that doesn't maybe mean that immediately it becomes obvious how to work with it past that. No, that's a really good example, though. I think that if you think about these systems in a kind of mechanistic way, OK, you've got this hindrance door. And you are mindful of the fact that that's a condition that's in your body and mind, right? That mindfulness then, to the extent that they're, you know, if you haven't cultivated practice, if you haven't been working with say, these other factors of enlightenment, or if you haven't even been able to sit still and meet yourself in the sense that we would in our practice, then you could be mindful of that torpor and not have a clue as to what to do about it, right?

[39:00]

But if you've been cultivating these factors, And the same thing, I think, applies, basically, really, it could be a lot of different systems, but this is a critical one, and I think the Paramitas are either one. If you've been thinking about them, if you've been studying them, and planting those seeds in your mind, then when you are mindful of the torpor, You can decide, and we're going to talk about, there's a number of these that are directly helpful with that state of body-mind. And so you have some tools for working with it. Does that make sense? So three of these factors, it's interesting, it's broken up then into two sets of three.

[40:10]

One is variable factors and one is, what's the other one called? Well, one is energetic factors and one is calming factors. Let's put it that way. So, the three energetic factors are effort, investigation, and rapture. Effort is energy? Yes, effort is virya, energy. You know, so I think we have some sense of what that means, both in medication and in our lives. And investigation is the kind of scope and quality of the way that we look at ourselves and look what's going on, and look at both the positive and negative activities of the dharmas.

[41:28]

And then rapture is, you know, like blissing out. So these are all, these are ways that, you know, are sort of, well, all of them apply in various ways to the hindrances. But these are the energetic ways of things that we can cultivate. And then the other three factors are calming or settling, and that's concentration, tranquility, and equanimity. I thought equanimity was calming. No, it's a different factor. And it's a different... calming, I mean, They're quite related. I think they have to go together.

[42:39]

Equanimity means having a very expansive view of everything in its equality, in a sense. Happy to be corrected in that. Tranquility is just an overall calmness and doesn't necessarily have a particular view of reality. It's just kind of calm. So there's both sets of these As you think about them, you can see these are factors of enlightenment in balance. If you go too far with any of them, you've got a problem. And if they are not, and that's the thing, in the sense of which, so in the Paramitas, the sixth Paramita is wisdom.

[43:51]

And Suzuki Roshi talks about them as... So, wisdom is prajna. So, when Suzuki Roshi in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind talks about the paramita of generosity, he doesn't just call it dana paramita, he calls it dana prajna paramita. And it's true that without the influence of wisdom within each of the paramitas, every one of them is subject to our dualistic activity and thinking. And the same thing is true with these factors of enlightenment here. I mean, it's interesting, in a certain way, the factor of wisdom and the factor of mindfulness, I think, are being equated.

[45:00]

Does that make sense? It seems like wisdom is more of an action than mindfulness, though. It's not necessarily moving toward action in the sense of generating or maintaining perspective. Yes. I mean, actually, it's interesting in that... We don't talk about this very often. uh we have on the altar in the zendo the figure of manjushri with the sword of discriminating wisdom right and manjushri is uh seated on a lion i believe uh and That's an active principle.

[46:03]

So we've got these two, we've got three figures, but we have five figures, but we have Manjushri with sword. which is actually not an active figure. It's a mental figure. The discriminating wisdom is not like discriminating in social situations. It's actually about really cutting to the core of your own self-centered ideas. The other figure that we have is Guanyin, who is the Bodhisattva of Compassion. Often in a feminine or androgynous form, the Bodhisattva of Compassion is the active figure.

[47:20]

because he, she, they need to come forward in order to manifest compassion. And the principle of wisdom, it's like that wisdom has to act within us before we can appropriately act with compassion. Does that make sense? Yeah, Julia. metaphor, the imagery of the lamp and the light. So compassion is the functioning of wisdom in the same way that the light is the functioning of the lamp. Yeah, I think that's right. So that metaphor is very prominent in key chapter of the Platform Sutra, which some of us have studied, where the Sixth Ancestor is very careful not to create a duality of wisdom and concentration.

[48:37]

But it's also wisdom and compassion. So yeah. So here we have, you know, it's like, you can see the kind of fundamental nature of these two groupings of three. So they all have, each one has to be in proper balance. you know, effort without mindfulness can just be exhaustion and burnout. Bliss. Bliss is a big one. Bliss, yeah. We all want to bliss out, you know. Like we're, we are a society that, we're an addictive society who is constantly being sold various kinds of delusions whether through things that we eat or drink or what we watch on television or whatever so we want to do this out and investigation we just get to be you know it's like tunnel vision where we're just caught on what's right in front of us

[50:13]

and just kind of drill in on that. So those are elements that have to be in balance. And on the other side, I don't know, I'm not so sure about this division, frankly. Because it seems to me the dangers of tranquility and equanimity are not so far from the hazards of bliss. Tranquility especially that you can lower in such a way where you need to lift yourself up but equanimity I think is closer to that idea of non-identification. Right but I think the danger I think what they're talking about uh in equanimity the the way I think it's traditionally described as the hazard of it is detachment.

[51:17]

So the hazard of bliss may be just like, you know, kind of ultimate merging, whereas one of the dangers of equanimity is just a kind of complete relativism. I think in the equanimity in the Theravada tradition, that's close to Nirvana, that work. And so I think that's closer, I think, to the They're sort of balancing out of equanimity. You're balancing. You're not too attached and you're not too detached. And you're in this dispassion. I think it's also related to dispassion.

[52:22]

Yes. Yeah. But also if you're like in the center of equanimity, it says, without being lustful or averse. So if you're in the middle of that, isn't it from that place where one can act? And so, what other parts of that cultivate the acting part? It's when there's clarity in the middle, right? That's my question, too. What's the question? What's your question? If you're there, what motivates the action, or what action do you take? Oh! Because you don't stay there. because it's one factor among seven. It's not like where you land. One of the challenges, so this gets into this whole other area which I don't feel sufficiently conversant in, but traditionally

[53:28]

So these factors of enlightenment overlap to some extent also with several of the jhanas. The jhanas are particular concentrations, and there's an argument in early Buddhism about whether the jhanas are naturally arising states that are generated from one's meditation, or whether they are particular meditations that one should cultivate. Do you understand the difference? So let me read you the list of these jhanas. The first jhana is pleasant sensations. The second is joy. The third is contentment. The fourth is utter peacefulness. The fifth is infinity of space. The sixth is infinity of consciousness. The seventh is no thingness, not seeing anything.

[54:31]

The eighth is neither perception nor non-perception. And the ninth jhana is cessation, which is nirodha, which is nirvana. So, in the description of Buddha's enlightenment, the night of his enlightenment, he moved through all these jhanas, and what's not clear is to what extent were they consciously states that he moved through as cultivating, as practices to cultivate, or were they a naturally occurring sequence of consciousness that arose for him? We don't practice this. In fact, this is really interesting. The conversation we're having right now is a conversation, let's say a Theravada or a Vipassana or a forest tradition, would be a conversation about our meditation practice. Yes.

[55:33]

Where your conversation, and I think it would expand for even those traditions, but here it's really interesting. This is a whole practice that you're expanding. It's a whole life practice. It's a whole life practice. It's not just us talking about meditation. In fact, I don't think this, our tradition, we don't really go there with these systems with our tradition. No, we don't. But partly I'm teaching them because To me, there are pieces of this that are really alive and useful as things for me to remember. I remember it in my life because my practice is, because it's whole life practice, and also I remember it in my meditation. When I get distracted or when I get into some storyline about something that's going on,

[56:42]

I think it's very interesting that it's not clear because there is no word for meditation in Pali. No. It's bhavana. And that is cultivation in the broad scheme of things. Bhavana. So it is very interesting that there is a tendency to really dig in, this is about our meditation practice, but actually it's broader than that. Right. The other thing is that bhavana for a monastic also has the implication of his or her whole life. That's what I'm saying. So it's not just what they do when they're sitting cross-legged. No, no, no. That's what I'm saying. It's not just meditation. It's cultivation of the whole life. And that's the place where it's really not so different. So we get to that state and we step off into action.

[57:46]

It seems to me that the non-identified state, we nonetheless find our unique and momentary being cause, our momentary input to the situation, which is action. And I believe so-called enlightened action arises out of our practice because of preparation and being, for example, and equanimity. And then something comes up, and we don't have to say, Oh, it's OK. We say, Oh, is this something I can act upon? Is this something appropriate for me to act upon? And then we move or don't. Let me ask a question of the room. Is there such a thing as completely non-identified action?

[58:49]

For the Buddha, yes. What about for you? No. I'm still in a profound state of conditioning. Okay, can you... Anybody else? What do you mean by not identifying? sound that we heard or something for example no i mean well i think that each of us has moments probably many moments the day when we are operating without a notion of self i think too i don't believe you john i really don't i think it's what i said is more complicated but i think When it gets down to it, I would hope so. What do you think? I think there are moments when, because of our training, that when we're engaged, fully engaged, and we're not thinking about me, and we're one with the activity, whatever it is, that we're not identified.

[60:11]

And then the minute the mind comes in and thinks, oh, I just did a great job, or whatever, then we're off the cushion. But I think we all have this. I hear you. I hear you. I hear that. Alexandra? Didn't you have your hand up? No. Oh, OK. I have this great longing to hear many voices in this room. So I'm just wondering, you posed a question. Yes. And I'm wondering if there's a way, even popcorn style, maybe people have something to name, or I might have a question, like when I'm hearing Jeremy lift up, is what is a non-identified action? So I'm thinking, I spent the day in front of a computer screen, and I'm not sure when I got lost in the screen, or when I was completely absorbed in the work at hand. So for me, that's the slippery slope of this factoring of enlightenment can slip into delusion or just gone.

[61:24]

And I don't know what other people's, if other people have that experience of, is this really completely one with, or is this really, I got lost in the sauce? Just in our everyday life. I'm curious what people think. I think it's more apparent when you're not alone. For me, when I'm in a flow of activity that involves constant interaction, and that activity is not a solo thing, and my response is dependent on what just happened, and then that person's response hits over here, and it's just this flow of activity. and interaction, and it's happening, but I feel just a part of all of that, not, and it's not even something that I'm thinking of at that time, you don't, you're just doing. So, I mean, I don't think I have any non-identified actions, I think I'm, only when I'm sitting perfectly for some split second on the cushion,

[62:40]

And everything else, even if I am completely absorbed and completely in the flow with a group or with a computer screen or whatever, there's still some bit of me that is in there, I think all the time. And that it's just, that is not, it's not possible for me to have a non-identified action. Even if I don't realize it, I think as a philosophical matter, it doesn't exist. I'm just thinking, if I'm not as mind and body, And who am I? I keep thinking that. And then I feel it like something else. Sometimes I feel separate and then it merges again. Sometimes I go deeper into a project. I become more into that project. It has more of me in it. I'm absorbed into it. And I'm done with that project. So back to the doubt. Anyone else?

[63:42]

This is helpful. Here's the idea that came up for me in the midst of this conversation. I'm trying to reflect on a variety of activities that come up in my daily life. And often I think a lot about playing music, and that sort of makes my point. But I feel like there are a lot of moments in the day when I am non-identified. And I think there are no moments in the day when I am non-conditioned. In other words, where the activity, even the non-identified activity, could not exist without this bundle of aggregates that one provisionally calls self, and that the way I do something, the way I strike a guitar string, or the way I speak, or the way I bow, every atom of that is a manifestation of conditioning.

[65:12]

of conditioned reality and then I would say that then there is the unconditioned about which I have no words and that mysteriously infuses all of us to the extent that we're alive but as we're alive in that life everything is conditioned Within determinism there's freedom. I didn't say determinism. But it's rings of determinism in the sound of everything is conditioned, everything is arising from something that was conditioned, then this came next. No, I think it's just immensely, immensely and infinitely complicated and variable, because even just this... I didn't know what you were going to say 30 seconds ago. And you didn't know what I was going to respond to, so that's... Where is that arising from?

[66:18]

You know, it's arising... Yeah, your conditions are brought to bear, my conditions are brought to bear, but it's not determined. Well, I agree, I don't believe in determinism, but I was kind of hearing it, I don't... Thankfully, I don't. I think about what Suzuki Roshi, how he would have answered that. I think he would have... He would have used a third principle to answer it, that Zazen is non-identified. He would have taken it out of... Zazen would have been sort of the bridge. Actually, what he was saying is Zazen is non-conditioned. Non-conditioned, and as you are Zazen, Zazen is you. I mean, it's what Dogen would say, and I think this is consonant with Suzuki Roshi, He wouldn't even say it's not conditioned, he would say it's beyond thinking. Right.

[67:20]

And that really makes sense to me. I keep going back to what I heard Jeremy say of, you know, there's this thought, well if I'm not this mind and body, what am I? And, you know, the question is just for me, does that bring me into the moment or not so like the moment in front of the computer screen where and I have to say in that moment it's usually the body wisdom that wakes me up like I realize I'm really hunched over and it's a pain in my neck and shoulder that it causes me to shift and step back and whether I ask that question you know the Jeremy named or my body sort of asks it by twitching it's it's shaking something and I don't know what what exactly that is. But again, this hair's breadth of when, is it really like you're just in the flow and you're just there? And when does it go more towards, I don't know your name.

[68:25]

Paula. Paula. that i heard something like seems like i'm in the flow but i can feel this quality of my egos in there there's something yeah and it's often it's the body that to me speaks much louder than myriad thoughts and traumatic feelings the body is you know in the conventional way of looking at things the body is you know is the perfection of the mundane on the other hand the working of the body is beyond our understanding even when it's not working right it's you know it's there's something that is beyond our ego and yet it is actually necessarily conditioned by the realities of our flesh and our situation.

[69:35]

Dogen says this very body manifesting itself. There's a chapter where he says that over and over, this very body manifesting itself. Who am I? He kind of tries to address that question. I am this body that comes up in the shape of the pressure that's pushing this way, in the shape of the pressure that's pushing that way, of this moment. So as I arise, I am all those dimples and shapes to address this moment, and how I so-called pull off this moment is my being action. Right, Dogen is also always saying, uh... uh... Lori and I were talking about this this morning, That's one side. The other side is, he makes a point twice in this text, Ehekosu Hotsugaman, Buddhas of old are no different than you and I. And he must be serious about this point, because he actually says it twice, in a very short piece.

[70:53]

So, that's the other side, that's the inconceivable side. That's the super mundane, you know, the side of us that unbeknownst to us is the constant outflow of enlightenment. The absolute. Yeah, yeah. It's our ticket as well. It can be our ticket, you know, it can be our ball and chain. Someone is not here to remind us all to stand up for one minute. Yeah, let's stand up for one minute. So I'll be that someone. Good, thank you. I'll take that shake. I don't know that someone is not here. Thank you.

[72:27]

I got glasses today and I'm really trying to adjust. Are they bi or trifocal? They're trifocal and all that and I don't think I can stick with them. I just got them. I got them a couple years ago. I still don't wear them but it's just like I found I just didn't have the patience to work out the trifocalness of it. I use mine all the time. So you're used to it? Yeah. They're progressive lenses. How long did it take you? What was your experience? It took me a few days. It did take time. Yeah, you just kind of get used to finding the right focal length. Nice to see you all. And the spiderwebs in the corner too. Don't give up too soon. I want to reiterate these factors. Mindfulness, investigation of the dharmas, energy or effort, happiness or rapture, calmness, concentration, and equanimity.

[74:24]

So, I think also as we were looking, we see that each one of these, there has to be an appropriate amount of them. You know, this is, I was reminded we had some visitors two weeks ago, some nuns and a couple of monks from Dharmadrom, Master Shen Yen's, late Master Shen Yen's temple in Taiwan and also Vancouver. And he gave a talk here in 1990. and uh you know i probably told you this laurie asked him in the question and answer what's the most important thing for a lay practitioner to do and his response was regulate your life and that went threw me like a shot when he said that uh i've never forgotten i've forgotten that moment and i think that's the principle

[75:36]

that you have to apply to these factors of enlightenment. Other than mindfulness, mindfulness is the only one you can't have too much of. I think if you let any one of them take control, then they can potentially become addictive or obsessive or just plain crazed. And yet we need to be cultivating them in balance. Well, I think that's where the hindrances can seep into these factors. And that's where, the way I understand the relationship between the hindrances and the factors is, what's really being, the hindrances really hinder, and I think this is very appropriate for Zen conversation, is the hindrances hinder our relationship to the present, to the here and now.

[76:41]

That's what is being hindered. And the factors can really only be cultivated in the present. That's beyond meditation, beyond our being in the present, that these factors are cultivated in the present. And the hindrances can seep in to these factors. And that mindfulness is always working and adjusting, regulating that. Yeah, I mean, I think that's true. If you look at the hindrances, every one of them, sensory desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and skeptical doubt, every one of them at its core is a strategy for wanting things to be different from how they are. Avoiding them all. Yes, avoiding. Or embracing.

[77:41]

I mean, sensory desire is not necessarily avoiding it. It's like, if I embrace it, then it will last forever. Right? It's seeking something. Yeah. Attachment. Craving. I was wondering if you might say something about Sangha in terms of all of this, because when I hear regulate your life, there's also, you know, as we experience here in the practice center, the regulation of not falling into stuckness through relationship. And so, you know, I might not be noticing that I've really gotten tunnel visioned and I've lost sense of you or temperature or you know whatever and then in relationship something shifts yeah um i think that that was something i think that he included that i would include that uh in the sense that my perception

[79:03]

My understanding of Buddhism is completely about relationality in every dimension. All of the precepts, if you think about the precepts, the Bodhisattva precepts, they're all about relationship. How you are in the world, you mean. And how you are with yourself and how you are with other people and other things. And if there was no other world or other things or other people, there'd be no precepts. They're not abstract principles, at least the Bodhisattva precepts are relational instructions and practices. So then are these factors of enlightenment, one way to look at them is they're in relationship with each other and they're also In any given moment, you might be embodying a particular factor right now and I might be embodying a particular factor and we dance with that so that the factors balance each other.

[80:09]

Yeah, I think that's true and I think it's primarily these are meditation instructions and I think with our Mahayana view we're looking at them as whole life practice instructions. Yeah. Um, but we're looking, you know, we're using the, uh, mindfulness as a, as an illuminatory, uh, it's like a light that you turn on. but in the light of which you can see these various characteristics, you can see, and so the practice of them, when you read the Bhujanga Sutta, it's like to know when energy is there, to know when it's not there, to know what

[81:19]

the quality of it feels like to know where you have to go in order to raise it up or in order to tamp it down and the same thing that you know each one of those kind of particular and it gets very particular in the Theravada system each factor has these sets of conditions by which you recognize it you cultivate it you subdue it in the same in that sense there's a kind of parallel structure between the hindrances and the factors of enlightenment. And the factors of enlightenment are remedies for the hindrances. Is there any kind of homework you could give us? There is homework I'm going to give you. The homework I'm going to give you is very simple. of these seven factors of enlightenment, please find one that resonates with you as an area where you need to do work, where you need to cultivate it.

[82:33]

In other words, something that needs strengthening in your life and practice. So, you know, if you pick one, we'll try to go around and see what people have to say to the extent that they're willing to do that. Well, what if we can't choose between five of them? Well, then you are, then obviously, you are suffering from, you are suffering from the fourth, the fourth and or the fifth kindreds. If you can't choose, you know, among five of them, then probably you're caught in restlessness and worry and in skeptical doubt. So you might as well give up. But we're working on the factors of enlightenment. Factors of enlightenment, yes. That you feel needs to be better cultivated in you.

[83:35]

I can see some for me, so. But it's like you've gone overboard with equanimity. That's another way of looking at it. I don't need more, I need less. Yeah, that would be okay too. Feel free to share stuff. The explanation of mindfulness and equanimity confuses me because they seem like they're one. Which I don't know where you are. Mindfulness and equanimity are quite different. I know it's mindfulness. Think of mindfulness as awareness. Mindfulness is active awareness. And mindfulness needs to be able to do something. Equanimity is accepting everything as equal. It's not attaching to one perspective or another.

[84:39]

Mindfulness, and this is I think what you're pointing to, is what I feel like is a modern-day misunderstanding of mindfulness. Mindfulness is not bare awareness. That's an aspect of mindfulness, but mindfulness is actually about, you know, if you think about mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of the thoughts, mindfulness of feelings, mindfulness of the dharmas, Equanimity is useful to the extent that you don't judge, but mindfulness actually involves discernment. So, it's like, this is going on in my body, that is not going on in my body. This is going on in my mind, that is not going on in my mind. And so that's not the same as tranquility or equanimity.

[85:43]

Does that make sense? Mindfulness is an active principle. It's an active principle in the context of your mind. It's just like you turn on the light and you can see what's in the corner. You know, if the room is dark, you turn on your flashlight and you can see what's in the corner. That's mindfulness. So it's kind of within the RAIN formula, the recognize it part? Yeah. The ability to recognize it is the activity of mindfulness. Even if it's non-equanimity that you recognize? That's yeah, that's the thing.

[86:48]

I'm not trying to get to get in this. When Sogen taught this stuff, when I first came here, I told you that he was teaching these systems. And it was very clear in what he was doing. And it's clear to me. I'm not teaching this as a system of meditation. just sharing with you buddhist ways of looking at the world and the more that you have that in your awareness uh that becomes then part of your conditioning you know that becomes a place that you can return to when you need it but it's not what we're doing in meditation In our meditation. In our meditation, right, right. Some places you might really be doing it in your particular meditation.

[87:52]

And just as some places they do, uh, when we're talking about the jhanas, they have a systematic approach to practicing the jhanas. You know, and I'm not, I'm not attracted to that, but I, you know, I wouldn't say that any of these things is wrong. You know, it's just, these are different practices and we have the practices we've been given. I just want to make sure I understand the homework. So we identify a factor of enlightenment that we want to cultivate. Yes. And do it. And do it. You didn't say that part. Do it. Oh, sorry. I thought that was understood. Misperceived by the world mindfulness, what were you saying? What I was saying is that what... What I think is being often marketed as mindfulness these days is... It actually is synonymous with tranquility, with calmness and equanimity.

[89:08]

It's like, you know, and bliss, you know, it's like, I accept everything, I'm so calm, you know, nothing's bothering me. It's like, and that's not that, I mean, the activity... Any kind of end. Right. You know, if you just do this, this, and this, you'll end up mindful. Right, and also, you want to end up mindful because that's a way out of all the shit that you have to deal with moment by moment and day by day and you know we want to we that it's like then it becomes a technique for hopefully having things be different than how they are it's escapism right it's escapism and it's it's it's the near enemy of our of our meditation practice but um it's also really related to gaining mind sure sure totally but it's you know It's important to put the whole thing in that basket. I'm not putting the whole thing in that basket. And that's the problem.

[90:10]

I'm not... I've been in a very tricky ideological spot because I have a bunch of friends who've been writing about what they call mindfulness. You know, mindfulness as a consumer, as a... you know, something to be consumed. And, uh, I think that's a hazard, but I don't actually think that's the main thing that's going on. You know, and then they, you know, what they get into then is, it's kind of like blaming mindfulness, you know, sort of this mindfulness movement, which Jon Kabat-Zinn and other people had a lot to do with, blaming them for the success of a notion. And the reason it's successful is that there really is something attractive about it.

[91:14]

And also there's something real in those guys. But John, it's practice. So I don't want to be reductionist about this. Well, what was called mindfulness it can slip into this thing, well all I have to do is be mindful, but I don't have to do anything. Right, well there's, I want to say I think next month, Bob Rosenbaum's book about Zen and mindfulness is coming out. Yeah, I have an essay in that. And basically, one of the points I'm making is that to remove mindfulness from the from the purview of ethics, is to render it no longer right mindfulness. Right mindfulness is one of the factors of the Eightfold Path.

[92:16]

And so, I have had this discussion with Jon Kabat-Zinn. For him, because he's been trained, the ethical dimension is right there, in it. but sometimes it gets passed by. Anyway, that's another, that's an aside, and I think we need to end. I'll just say, so you know what the assignment is for next week's lecture. We're going to find a weakness or a needful spot of our factors of enlightenment and? Cultivate it. Do it. Yeah. Thank you.

[92:53]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ