This morning we'll continue with where we left off last time, but next time I want to start not I want to go back to the Five Ranks and do a study from Hakuin's commentary on the Five Ranks, but not this time, next time, even if we don't finish the whole Okyo Zamae. From this point on, it's more or less examples We don't learn a lot that's new, but it's all interesting, of course. But I do want to do a more thorough study of the five ranks, so we'll start doing that next time. But this time, we'll continue. And I think we were on page 40. But if I'm wrong, let me know.

[01:34]

But I think we're on page 40, where we come to the part where it's talking about a hair's breadth deviation, hair's breadth, hair's breadth deviation. Or is it hair breadth? No, hair's breadth, hair's breadth deviation. will fail to accord with the proper attunement. So it's kind of likened to an instrument, a musical instrument. A little bit off and tuning is wrong. Tuning is not so good and doesn't sound right. So the slightest deviation means failure of attunement. A slight deviation from a from it destroys the perfect harmony. So it, here we have it again, and a slight deviation and you are not in accord with the harmonious attunement that's complete.

[02:43]

That includes all the others. If there is the separation of even a hair's breadth, there won't be harmony. So Oh, even the slightest twitch will surely break the rim. I like that one. So you kind of get the picture that if you're not in accord, perfectly in tune, perfectly in harmony with the mirror, that it doesn't tell you the right, it doesn't reflect correctly. If you look on the right hand side, there's a note, the Xin Xin Ming, you know, I don't know if you're, I think you've studied the Xin Xin Ming before, but, a hair's breadth difference in heaven and earth are set apart.

[03:50]

That's a famous quote from the Xin Xin Ming. And then Baizhang seems to say, the immediate mirror-like awareness should not have the slightest hair of grasping love for anything at all. And in the Book of Serenity, Shaosan asked Elder De, this is, I like this case, case 52 of the Book of Serenity, Shaosan asked Elder De, the Buddha's true reality body is like space. Buddha's true reality body is like the... The true human body is the whole universe, in other words. It manifests form, not from, it manifests form in response to beings, like the moon and the water.

[04:55]

How do you explain the principle of response? The response is, how do you explain the principle of response? The Buddha said, like looking, like an ass looking in a well. Saoshan said, you said a lot indeed, but you only said 80%. Dosa said, what about you, teacher? And Sao Chan said, it's like the well looking at the ass. So it's like you look in the well, this is response, right? You look at the well and see your reflection, the ass, you. But what about the ass looking at you? I mean, yeah, the well looking at the ass. That's the principle of response.

[05:58]

So we're always looking at something from our own point of view. This is the realm of duality. We're always looking at something from our own point of view. And that's discrimination. Yes. Non-duality. Non-duality. Yes. From the point of view of non-duality. So, when I'm looked at by the cosmic, you know, or human nature, this skin bag, this is a non-dual thing, something that's part of the universe.

[07:05]

The whole shmole. The whole shmole. Is that the well looking at the ass? That's the well, yeah. The well looking at the ass is If I explain that, you're going to go away with this picture. Just digest it. Just eat this ball of what and let it give you a stomachache. Yes. You said a lot, indeed, but you only said 80%. So that means you said the right thing, but it's not complete. The complete part is like the well looking at the ass.

[08:05]

Which means when you... Here I go. When the ass is looking in the well, the reflection becomes an object. So we say, oh, this is me, but that's the object. That's the reflection. But the reflection is also looking at what is reflected. So you can't take this totally literally, because reflections don't have consciousness. But you have to see what Because we see things as objects. It has to do with not seeing things as objects. You're not seeing yourself as an object. When you look at reflection in the mirror, you see an object.

[09:13]

Oh, that's my reflection. But actually, that's me. The mirror itself is me. Myself. So this is why when Suzuki Roshi translated Tozan's poem, he did it in his own, it's more like his commentarial translation. He said, don't try to see yourself or the world as an object. The you who is seen as an object is not you yourself. I go my way now and everywhere I look I see myself. This is the well looking at the ass. Speak up, speak way up. Even louder. Chorosario. Chorosario. So this comes back to Harris-Breadt's deviation.

[10:35]

So the mirror reflects things as it is. The mirror only reflects things as it is. But if the mirror has a mind of its own, then it doesn't do that. Or if a mirror has some idea about things, it doesn't reflect things as it is. It reflects things according to partiality. or discrimination. Discrimination means to divide and compartmentalize. So in discrimination, we take one thing and chop it into pieces. So we live in discriminated time. There's one long piece of time, but we discriminate it into little pieces. We have one whole piece of cloth and we discriminate it and put it back together and call it a suit.

[11:59]

So you can use discrimination but it should fit, our discrimination should fit the absolute like a box in its lid. So just the fact that we can say an ass in a well is discrimination. But if the well is looking at the ass, as well as the ass looking at the well, then that's the box fitting the lid. Yes? Can you yourself feel this hair's breadth deviation when it occurs in your body? Can you feel Do you yourself feel the attunement and harmony? Yes. How does it feel?

[13:05]

Well... It feels various ways. It feels like... Why am I having so many problems? What's the root of my problems? Why do I have so many problems? Yeah. Would you say it's sort of like that stickiness that people talk about when you sort of know you've stepped over the lines a little bit? Yes. Feels like stickiness is good. Feels like stickiness. Feels like, gee, I'm off today. How come nobody likes me? And the attunement? How does that feel? Well, how come we never meet quite right? How come I don't really meet with things quite right?

[14:14]

That's the attunement? Attunement, yeah. Attunement is not meeting. When notes are out of tune, there are beats. So when you tune two instruments, you listen for the beats. And there are no beats, then it's in tune. When you don't hear yourself, But you hear yourself. When everything is perfectly in tune, you disappear. Yeah. In order to describe that experience... I really can't hear you. of you disappearing, you have to go out of attunement?

[15:17]

Out of the? Out of attunement. Attunement. And when Dogen wrote the Self-Enjoyment in the Human Samadhi, it's like the description of that is attunement. Right. But then to write about it, is that out of attunement? Right. Yeah. Well, attunement is good. Because when we're in tune with ourself and with the universe, Everything flows. I don't like that term, but everything flows easily. And so, this is called harmony. Harmonious practice. Bringing harmony to everyone, free from hindrance. We say it all the time, every day. harmony to everyone free from hindrance is exactly what it's about.

[16:20]

So out of attunement means egotistical, frankly, means when we interject our ego then it causes bumps. And so ego is the biggest hindrance to harmonious, that's what I'm always talking about, let go of ego, in order to merge with it. In order to merge with it, because ego is what stands in front. It's a hindrance. Blockage. I don't know. Yes? It reminds me of, in solid state technology, radio, where we have a resonance of a particular radio frequency passing through a circuit, and there's resonance of zero impedance, and it allows that frequency to pass through.

[17:36]

Yeah, that's right. So, this is what practice is about. It's about letting go of the hindrance of ego so that you can be yourself. You know, we say, you should express yourself completely. It means to let go of ego. Then you will be expressing yourself completely. But you won't know it. Knowing it will know it. Knowing will know it. You see, the problem we have of letting go of ego is that we think that we'll let go of that most precious thing called myself, and I won't know it. Yeah, we all have that problem. What happens when there's no more consciousness? Who will know it? We'll get to that when we study the five ranks.

[18:39]

We'll know. Who knows it? We'll study. Who knows it? In attunement, is pain still painful? In attunement, is pain still painful? Is there emotional pain? Is emotional pain painful? In attunement, you know, in attunement, when you feel pain, you just feel totally painful. Do you have aversion pain? Aversion? You don't have a... Aversion? Aversion. No. No aversion and no grasping. It's called the secret of Zazen. No aversion and no grasping.

[19:42]

But you'll still put your hand away from the plane. Yes, you don't want to... You pull your hand away from the flame. Why? Why do you pull your hand away? Because it'll burn otherwise. I think, you know, I kind of understand your question, but it's... We carry the logic too far. When you're in attunement, you know, oh, this is hot, this is cold. you have some freedom from grasping and you have some freedom from aversion.

[20:54]

In other words, it's not aversion based on ego or grasping based on ego. But when you stick your hand in the fire, you don't keep it there because you don't want to burn your hand. It's all in relation to self. Self arises with grasping and aversion. You say, well I still have a self even though there's no grasping and aversion. No, not in the sense that we mean self. The sense that we mean self is when self arises when there's grasping, aversion and discrimination based on self. That's what we mean by self arising. Otherwise, self doesn't arise. There's simply, as Buddha says, phenomena just rolling on.

[22:03]

What? Phenomena just rolling on. Yes? I'm wondering if there's a difference, if this at all relates, this phrase relates to the moment that Shakyamuni put his hand to the earth and achieved great enlightenment, that kind of moment. There's a difference between the moment before and the moment when he touches. Is there a Herod's best deviation in there? I mean, there's some great shift that happens, but not sure what exactly that is. Well, when he touches the earth, it's calling the earth to witness his enlightenment.

[23:10]

But, you know, if you want to look at it, when In the Zen version, when Buddha steps as a baby, he steps forward, takes seven steps, and he puts one hand toward the earth and one hand toward the sky. On Buddha's birthday, we have this little statue that we pour sweet tea over. You know that ceremony? This is Shakyamuni as a baby, actually Siddhartha, sticking one finger up to the sky and one hand to the earth, and he says, I alone am the world honored one. And you say, I alone am the world, what? That sounds egotistical, right? But we have to understand what the word alone means. Alone, the root of alone is at one.

[24:14]

So alone has a double meaning of opposites. At one and alone. So when we think of alone, it means isolated. And when we say at one, it means totally merged. So it's a wonderful word, actually, alone, because it has both This independent individual is at one with the whole universe. So there's no separation. There's no out-of-tuneness, no hairs-breadth difference. Is that our Buddha nature? Is what our Buddha nature? Yes, well yes, that's complete merging in Buddha nature. We're never apart from it, even when we make mistakes.

[25:22]

Mistakes are Buddha nature. When Suzuki Roshi talked about who is Buddha, he said, well when you're hot, you're hot Buddha. When you're cold, you're a cold Buddha. When you're sitting in zazen, you're a zazen Buddha. When you make a big mistake, you're a big mistake Buddha. So, within practice, everything that you do is Buddha's activity. So, a hair's breadth deviation is hair's breadth deviation Buddha. I was thinking of the line, like a well looking at the ass.

[26:31]

I thought of two things. One is Krishnamurti saying, the observer is the observed. And the other one is the Law of Sequence thing where he said, when the mind is like a hall, and thoughts are like a voice in the hall, and one knows that that voice is not one's own. So I wonder if that's kind of related, like you're in the hall and there's a voice, but you kind of realize that's not you. sort of like the ego, and you realize that's not you, and the whole structure you think of as yourself, you see it all, but it's not you. Is that kind of like the well seeing the ass? Well, the first one, I think, is more like the well seeing the ass. Yeah, the observer is the observed. More like that. The other one is more like the noise Noisy mind is not true mind.

[27:33]

There's another wonderful saying, the cool breeze blows through the empty hall. I like that one. You said in practice everything is Buddha activity? Within practice, yes. Outside of practice is not the case? What is outside? What is not practice? Outside of practice is simply egotistical activity without awareness. So egotistical activity with awareness is inside practice? Yeah. As long as you have the awareness. There's no such thing as egotistical Buddha. Egotistical Buddha. Yeah, egotistical Buddha.

[28:36]

Buddha understands this is egotistical. You always... Enlightenment is understanding or realizing your delusion. When you realize Your deluded activity, that's enlightenment. That's right. You may or may not. You may not be able to. You may only be able to realize it. So let's turn the page. That reminds me of a little story. When my son was about three, we used to read him these books, you know, with a hardcover, and this one was about fire engines.

[29:48]

And so I said, well, the firemen are doing this, and the fire engines are running the fire, you know, and then you turn the next page, you know, and then you turn the next page, And there was a fire on the next street, so we all went out to the fire. And the fire truck said, see this is just like in the book. And he said, yeah, turn the page. So, now there are sudden and gradual in connection with which are set up basic approaches. Now there are sudden and gradual on which are set up approaches to the source. Since there are instant and gradual aptitudes, our sect sets up five different phases. Wow! Presently the sudden and gradual teachings have created sectarian approaches."

[30:57]

Well that's pretty good. Oh yeah, that's mine. So there are sudden and gradual and schools and approaches are established. Nowadays there's the sudden and the gradual school. So this is all about sudden and gradual and this comes from the platform sutra. Well basically, but there's always been in Buddhism in Zen anyway, the sudden and gradual approaches to enlightenment. The gradual approach is step by step. You learn this, you learn that. Tibetan practice is very much stepwise practice. And Theravada, Vipassana is stepwise practice. Zen is you jump off the pier into the ocean and start swimming. You start at the top.

[32:01]

When the Tibetans come to Zen Center, they always say, oh, that's where we end. So we start at the top and go down to the bottom. It's really true. So we start with enlightenment and go down to delusion. The thing is that enlightenment is what brings us to practice. But we don't know what that is. So the wonderful thing about sudden enlightenment practice is that you don't have to know anything. You can just start practicing. You just step into the zendo and fold your legs and face the wall and breathe. You don't have to know anything. You don't have to know anything about Buddhism. You don't have to have studied anything. So this is the sudden school. It doesn't mean that you have sudden enlightenment, but it means that you're starting from not knowing.

[33:12]

You begin from letting go of all opinions, everything you know, all of your accumulated knowledge, just shed everything and sit down in Zazen. And that's enlightened practice. But you don't know it. Dogen says something like, one may not know that one is Buddha, but one is Buddha. One may not know what enlightenment is, but they are practicing enlightenment. So, then we start to accumulate knowledge. So, you know, the nicest way to come to practice is not knowing anything. But that's not possible. Only in few cases is it possible.

[34:16]

So usually we read something and we learn something and then we start to practice. So that's usual. But anyway, we do start from enlightened practice and then we start from enlightenment and then practice gradual practice. But the way sudden enlightenment is described is that one has an enlightened experience where you see all at once the true nature of things. It all opens up at once. But also that kind of experience is usually after one has practiced gradual practice for a long time.

[35:22]

So when Kyogen is sweeping the ground and the stone hits the bamboo, it's because of his years and years of assiduous practice and giving up. what opened his mind was, seems to be, the bamboo. I mean the stone hitting the bamboo. Crap. Oh, I see it all. But actually, the fact that he gave up searching was the catalyst. So Kyogen was Isan's student. And when he came to And he was very brilliant. He knew a lot about Buddhism. And he had some good answers.

[36:26]

But Ison would not accept his answers. So he finally felt dejected. He said, ah, you know, this is useless. I'm just going to go to the monument of the national teacher and sweep the ground, just as an ordinary monk. That's just, you know, I don't have anything left. So he just left everything, just forgot all about Buddhism, forgot all about his knowledge, gave up all of his understanding, and was just sweeping. Just a simple practice of sweeping. And then, click, and he woke up. So, his mind was really prepared by letting go of everything. So, it's the same thing. You let go of everything, just it's us. Yeah?

[37:28]

Well, I think it's both. Some are both. But, you know, if you read the Platform Sutra, the Sixth Patriarch says, There's this big argument about suddenly and gradually, but some people are very much attuned and understand suddenly. Other people, it takes time and they learn gradually. That's all. But the students, various students, the teachers, created this gradual, sudden split. So this whole thing is, you know, in the Sandokai, Sekito is criticizing these people who created this kind of gradual, sudden split.

[38:35]

So, in our approach, where it's not, where there aren't set, We're what's figured out where I'm in our practice that Jumping off the dock in the ocean. It's funny. That's one highway. It seems like there's this element that we have to put our school that like Frustration yeah, just feeling like you're just kind of not doing anything and just spending years. I'm like what yes, that's right when there's a that gradual step, you kind of have a little bit more confidence throughout the whole thing. I would imagine, kind of feel like you're, you know, maybe just know what you're doing or know what your goal is. And I was wondering if that's part of the strategy, if there's a good element of that frustration of feeling kind of lost. Yeah. That's the plan.

[39:42]

It's somewhat non-morphous. Somewhat what? somewhat non-morphous. It's a little bit like amorphous. The thing is that Zen practice is not learning something. As Dogen says, it's not learning meditation. It's simply the gate of repose and bliss. It's simply the gate of repose and bliss. Ouch! It's not learning meditation. It's... Opening, you know, it's not through the head. It's through the pores. That's why you have to Open yourself so that you get it through your pores.

[40:47]

That's why we practice over and over and over again. The daily practice. We also study. But the study verifies our practice. So when you come to practice, you sit zazen, and ideally you don't study so much. But then at some point you get curious, and you open the book and think, oh god, that sounds like our practice. And then pretty soon you see how when you study, it verifies what you're actually doing. And you can understand it better than just taking in information. So yes, you know, Zazen, work, harmonious practice, you know. Zen practice is based on intuition.

[41:53]

So intuition means knowing without the intermediary of thought, process. Directly knowing, directly touching, without something in between, without explanation. So you're saying direct experience? You can call it experience. It's, you know, some people will have an experience, an enlightening experience. But one person's experience that seems tremendous is another person's everyday bread and butter. So when someone says, oh, I had this tremendous experience, it may just be coming up to where this person is.

[43:00]

So when we talk about experiences, that's fine to have experiences. Suzuki Roshi said we should have an enlightenment experience on each moment. It's not like we just suddenly have one enlightenment experience. That's true, that does happen. And sometimes an enlightenment experience is tremendous and far above everyone else's enlightenment experience. It's true. How you judge enlightenment experiences, the way I judge enlightenment experiences is through someone's actions after. Okay, you had a great enlightenment experience, now what? How will this person's enlightenment experience play out in two years, or six months, or tomorrow? We don't put too much emphasis on having enlightenment experiences, but we should be able to experience enlightenment all the time.

[44:14]

We tend to think enlightenment is like this, but it's like this. Did you say that enlightenment is one direction? Yes, ordinary mind is enlightened mind. Ordinary in the ordinary sense. Ordinary in the Buddha sense, in the Buddha nature sense. Yeah, ordinary mind is the way. Shall I pursue it? Well, if you pursue it, you stumble past it. And if you don't pursue it, you ignore it. How do you find that? So we have koans in Zen. Rather than giving you information, we give you something that, what? Makes you work. So it makes you work.

[45:18]

So that's called effort. The effort in Zen. Your effort to find out for yourself. That's, you know, While human faculties are sharp or dull, that means some people are smart and some people are not so bright, the way has no southern or northern ancestors because after the Sixth Patriarch, the students of the Sixth Patriarch made a contentious issue of who was the real patriarch. The sixth patriarch was the sudden enlightenment teacher, and Hsien-Hsiu was the gradual enlightenment teacher. But actually, gradual and sudden are really not the same thing. Two aspects of the same thing. So do the students actually collect the patriarch

[46:20]

He talks about graduates that are the same thing. He didn't say graduates are the same thing. I said that. Well, not the same. Okay. You said that. But they're not the same thing. I said the two aspects of one thing. So by creating these two diverse schools, were they kind of correcting these two? Yes. They were. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, they were corrupting. That's what Sekito was talking about in the Sandokai. So, theoretical elaborations of sudden enlightenment and gradual cultivation began in India and became a major issue in Chinese Buddhism. The platform searcher presents key differences between the southern and northern schools of Zen, in terms of sudden versus gradual, but we don't know, you know, who exactly... Hsien-Hui, probably, who is one of the youngest of the Sixth Ancestors' students, probably inserted all this stuff into the Platform Sutra about sudden and gradual and the polarizing views.

[47:37]

So polarized views of sudden and gradual have their basis in differing views of the awakened nature and the nature of delusion. The import of sudden awakening is to emphasize an epistemological chasm between delusion and realization. The light of delusion never reveals the darkness of realization, even though they do interpenetrate. So, whatever that means. So from the Platform Sutra, Hsuan Hsu's poem, which is gradual, oh, this poem, gradual practice. Our body is a Bodhi tree and our mind is a mirror bright. Carefully we wipe them hour by hour and let no dust alight. And then Huineng saw this gatha, and he wrote his own gatha, which says, There is no Bodhi tree, no stand of a mirror bright, since all is void, where can the dust alight? So, one is talking about gradual practice, the other is talking about sudden enlightenment. And so it looks like Huineng won.

[48:39]

But actually, both aspects are important. Sudden enlightenment and gradual practice. Both are important. You can't have one without the other. So why did the transmission go to Huineng? I don't know. Because he felt that Huineng... You know, it's very interesting. Xinshu was an old man and he was a scholar and Huineng was supposedly uneducated and couldn't read, but his intuitive understanding the fifth patriarch felt that his intuitive understanding was key.

[49:51]

Whether it had anything to do with the gatha or not. So according to the sutra, because he recognized his gatha and he said, come and see me in the middle of the night and all this, that's pretty much fabrication. But the fact that he saw in Huineng as a young man with great intuitive understanding that this should be the person. And this was a Buddha who appeared in China. I don't think it had anything to do with the Gata particularly. At least though in the story there is the difference that Quy Nhon, like he riffed on Shun Shui's poem, like he took what was already there and he turned it.

[50:55]

Turned it, yeah. Which, I mean, you can imagine somebody presenting the teaching of emptiness and then somebody else riffing on that, like maybe Doi is saying, although we live in the present moment, we prepare tomorrow's rice gruel tonight. So he can take and kind of like turn that phrase. better than the other, but by making a commentary on the other form, he included both sides. Well, it looks to me more like a complementary gatha rather than a discriminatory gatha. It's completed, the other part. That's the way I've always seen it. So my comment says, sudden and gradual became an issue of contention among the students of Huinan. The Sando Kai criticizes this kind of splitting. It's not one or the other.

[51:56]

We need both. So. Yes. In Chang-Yen's commentary, I wonder what you think of the Chang-Yen comments of the two approaches. By and large, we need gradual approach. He describes sudden approach on the method as requiring an energy so powerful no practice is necessary after great enlightenment is attained. Yeah. Do you see it that way? No. No, I don't. I don't. I think that Sheng Yen has hundreds of students But I don't know how close he is to them. When you're close to people, that's where it really matters. You can lecture to big audiences here and there, but when you're actually practicing day by day with people, that's what makes a big difference.

[53:06]

Different type of Buddhism? Yeah. Yes. what current makeup we have and whether or not this practice is the best for us. Oh, well, come see me. I often tell people, this may not be the right practice for you. Are you able to determine which one is? Oh, I might. I might. Maybe Tibetan practice is good for you or Vipassana or Pure Land or something like that.

[54:14]

I often say, maybe you should go back and rediscover your Christian roots. I say that to people a lot. I think people who come from Christianity should understand Christianity before they give it up. And I say that to people who, you know, a lot of people come from Judaism. And, you know, people were taught in a certain way that put them off. So they didn't really understand the real basis of their original religious practice. So I sometimes send people back and say, you know, go understand what this is before you start rejecting it. I found that it's only through this practice that I could drop the baggage that I had with Christianity before I could go back and re-examine Christianity.

[55:24]

advantages of Buddhism is that it gives you a perspective on other practices, and then it does help you to reconcile yourself with your background practice. That really came out in the 70s. And Ratzinger, the Catholic assistant to the Pope, wrote this diatribe about how Buddhism was siphoning off young Catholics, and I wrote him back a letter saying that. Indeed, I always encourage people to go back and examine their roots and not leave their religion, be they Catholic for Buddhism and I make a point of doing that, but he never answered me.

[56:29]

Well, I'm just going to go to page 42, because this shouldn't take long. It says, once basic approaches are distinguished, then there are guiding rules. So this is to practices, right? Talking about practices. Once approaches to the source are distinguished, then there are guiding rule, guidelines and rules. The sect's divisions, divisions so established is nothing but its mode of teaching. Once they're distinguished, there are then customs and standards. So when a school has a, when a school is formed, then they develop standards and customs and rules and methods of practice. And, well, this is true, but this shouldn't divide us. We need to have some, understanding some way to practice within rules, but it shouldn't make us biased.

[57:56]

So, my comment is, each has their own way. Don't compare is right or wrong. If it's genuine, it's incomparable. We should be very careful, I think, not to criticize other ways and think ours is the best way, even though there's a tendency, as always, to think that. So every school thinks this is the best way. Every religion thinks this is the only way. And it's true. Everyone is the only way. Everyone is the best way. No problem. Would you say that that attitude, that any way that kind of brings someone to something is the best way? That that attitude is the best attitude? Well, best, you know, and not in a comparative sense. The highest?

[59:02]

When we say best, we think, well, best is as compared with worst. I'm not comparing it with worst. Neither am I. I just meant the best. I don't mean to compare, but yet it's the best. Yeah, it's the best. Because it's beyond compare. So, we have to be careful. In the realm of comparison, then everybody can be the best. What about very bad people, really, in some religions? What about them? I mean, are they the best too? Well, you know, it only goes so far. You can only take something so far.

[60:04]

What I'm saying is that when I say that, I'm talking about an attitude toward things, not a standard or a rule, so that everything has to fit into that rule, or everything has to fit into what I'm saying. Not everything fits into that. But by and large, it's like the attitude is, I'm not talking about evil things anyway, beneficial practices. We're not talking about evil practices. Yeah, if it's genuine. Well, genuine means not harmful to people. Not evil.

[61:06]

But genuine is also not quite definable. Genuine is also not quite definable. I'm just curious about what Dogen says, that there are as many minds as there are persons, and they all negotiate the way that they love solely and love, and I'm pretty sure they don't Well, you know, there are various ways of looking at who said Zazen. The whole universe is practicing Zazen. Constantly. Probably. I just wanted to respond to that. There are a lot of sin groups that lead in Christian churches. And Colin and I actually have done sin service in the Christian church for them that they participated in.

[62:18]

I think it's important not to make the assumption that... In fact, when we went to this Christian church, I sort of had the assumption that we were going to teach them tolerance. Yeah, well that's right, so there are many Christian churches that open themselves to Buddhist groups and that's quite right and very tolerant and try to understand and that always not surprises me, that always makes me wonder. I also know of Catholic monasteries where the monks practice Zazen. Yeah, the monks practice Zazen. So Zazen is not necessarily the property of Zen Buddhists. It's not the property of Zen Buddhists. And there are Catholic monasteries where the monks do Zazen.

[63:24]

So when someone does an evil act very thoroughly, are they practicing Zazen in the sense of the whole universe is practicing Zazen? Zazen is the practice of the universe, but not everybody is practicing Zazen. Zazen is the basic activity of the universe, but not everybody is practicing Zazen. I'm not going to explain that. So when we practice Zazen, we participate in the fundamental activity of the universe.

[64:18]

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