Yesterday I mentioned that after delivering the scripture called Setting the Dharma Wheel in Motion, at the end of which there was lots of excitement among the gods, and worlds were shaking, and light was shining, and Venerable Kundanam, had this immaculate vision arise. Then for the next period of time, about maybe two weeks, the Tathagata worked with the remaining four, presumably on the same teaching. One time through was sufficient for Venerable Kunda to have this experience of stream entry.

[01:04]

And then, as I mentioned, the story is that he went begging for the rest of them and brought food back to them. And they stayed home and worked on Dharma. And then the next two had stream entry experiences. realization and then finally all five had stream entry. And then after two weeks the Buddha delivered a discourse on the characteristics of not-self. At the conclusion of that discourse All five had realized our hardship. In the third echo in the morning service now, there's a phrase, declining age, and...

[02:23]

We don't use that term too often at Zen Center. But it refers to that it's a little harder, the idea anyway, is that it's a little harder to learn Dharma today than sometimes in the past. So here's a case where you have the Buddha giving intensive lessons to these And within a couple of weeks, they're all gone, which seems really a very rapid educational process. Now, there are also Zen stories where a monk comes and just in a moment, they wake up. However, in those cases, the monk may have been practicing for 20 or 30 years prior to that, or many lifetimes.

[03:29]

So there's many explanations about how it is that the learning occurs. So in this scripture on the characteristics of no-self, the Buddha starts out by saying that material form is not self. And he says, feeling is not self, perception is not self, formation is not self. Consciousness is not self. And then he makes these reasons. He said, if consciousness were self or if material form were self, this consciousness would not lead to affliction, and it could be had of consciousness, quote, let my consciousness be such and such.

[04:32]

Let my consciousness not be such and such, unquote. Consciousness is not self, that it therefore leads to affliction, and that it cannot be had of consciousness, unquote. Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness be serene, clear, full of joy, full of love, patient, concentrated, wise, and so on, whatever. Because consciousness is not... You can't just say what it's going to be, and you can't say what it's not going to be. That's what the Buddha said, apparently. We hear that he said this to these monks, these stream-enterers.

[05:37]

He's reasoning with them. Now, these monks, before they heard the previous discourse, presumably already had considerable experience in concentration practice. So he's not, in the previous text and in this text, we don't hear so much emphasis on how to stabilize. To me, it seems reasonable that these people he's talking to are people who already are able to without much conceptual elaboration, without getting involved in the concepts through which they experience his teachings.

[06:57]

And through non-involvement, through this non-grasping at the concepts that arise in their mind while they're listening to him, they are calm. They are listening. They hear the sounds. They perceive these concepts without getting involved. They're calmly listening. I assume that these monks who are listening to this discourse are calmly abiding in the non-conceptual nature of mind. Now they're hearing the Buddha reason with them about the self. the Buddha is analyzing and reasoning about these concepts that he's presenting.

[08:12]

So, this discourse being delivered in this, all the people, all the principal characters in this discourse are in a state of non-conceptual concentration and the Buddha is able to speak and conceptually analyze the topic of self in relationship to physical and mental experience which he into not just physical mental but into physical and and four other aggregates of mental experience. So he continues then to conceptually analyze with these yogis. How do you conceive this, monks?

[09:22]

Is material form permanent or impermanent? And they say, impermanent, lords, But what is impermanent, but is what is impermanent unpleasant? Unpleasant, Lord. And in Nagarjuna's text too, he says, you know, what is impermanent is suffering. And when I, to me, I think what's assumed here is, what they mean is, when things that belong to you, things of yourself, things that you want, things that are part of your situation, when they're impermanent, that it's painful, but it's not

[10:29]

It's not impermanent that pain's impermanent. I mean, it's not painful and unpleasant that pain's impermanent. Right? But actually, not right. Of course, we like that pain ends or that pain ceases. But actually, what they're saying is that it's a little bit annoying even that pain is impermanent. You can't even rely on pain. Of course, we like the pain to end. That's pleasant. But it's also unpleasant. Something unpleasant impermanent is unpleasant. Not to mention things that are neutral. And neutral things being impermanent is unpleasant. Things you don't really care about is a little bit unpleasant. Things you really like is quite unpleasant. My current sad one is I had this nice, which probably some of you have seen, I had this, well, nice.

[11:31]

I think it's nice. It's mine, right? My green down jacket. I got it at this place here in 1969. I traded a Japanese kanji character dictionary for that jacket. Fairly new at that time. Green down jacket. Whatever, 31 years. It's done very nicely. However, I've never cleaned it. So I thought, finally I thought, well, maybe I should get it cleaned because probably it's dirty. Seems kind of dirty. I mean, theoretically it's dirty. But it was still really a nice jacket. It worked very nicely. My jacket, my only down jacket. So I talked to Anja about getting it cleaned and some other people about getting it cleaned.

[12:36]

But in the end, I thought, what if Anja screws it up really hard on the Anja? Can you imagine what Anja would do if she wrecked my jacket? I mean, even if I said, oh, it's okay, I don't mind, sorry, don't, don't, it's okay, I don't. I don't mind. I had it for so long, I was ready for it to be wrecked. Thanks. I've been looking forward to this for years. I know your heart's in the right place. But actually, is it in the right place? I mean, look what you did. Anyway, I didn't get into that. So I spent my money to make it to a dry cleaner, and the dry cleaner wrecked it. They destroyed my lovely little jacket. Not completely. It still exists in a sense. And I'm wearing it, but... I paid my money to have my jacket wrecked.

[13:43]

This is impermanence. This is impermanence. This is impermanence, right? This is... This is what Buddhists live for, moments like this. When you can say, ah, impermanence. Yes. Yes. Oh, nice. So, unpleasant, Lord, but is it? Is it fitting to regard what is unpleasant, what is impermanent, and subject to change? Mind. This is mine. This is mine. This is what I am. This is myself. Is it fitting to regard it, this is mine, this is what I am, this is myself? No, Lord. And then he says, how do you conceive this? Is feeling permanent? How do you conceive this? Is perception permanent?

[14:46]

Goes through each one of these. And In each case, he says, is it fitting to regard what is impermanent as this is mine, this is what I'm aware, this is what I am, this is myself. And every time, I guess all five say, no, Lord. So they do this thing. They reason, they analyze about the self in relationship to the five aggregates. And. None of these experiences, none of the possible experiences that you can have a body and mind. In other words, no experience in the universe, no actual experience can. Does it fitting to say this is mine? This is what I saw. At least that's what they said. He got him to say no, Lord, every time. But it's according to this text. So at this point, according to this text, that was enough for them.

[15:54]

So now they understand. So then he says, therefore, past, future, present, in oneself or external, coarse or fine, inferior or superior, far or near, should all be regarded as it actually is by right understanding. This is not mine. This is not what I am. This is not myself. Now, what I'd like to point out at this point at this time is that he says they should be regarded as it actually is by right understanding. So, again, what is that? He's not actually saying that you should sit in meditation or walk around and say this is not mine. This is not what I am. This is not myself. That's perfectly fine to do. But that kind of discussion you're having with is more the previous phase of the instruction.

[17:04]

Hopefully you're relatively calm while you're having this discussion with yourself, but you're training yourself to try to develop an actual understanding saying is so. This is not mine. This is not what I am. This is not myself. What's impermanent is painful. You're talking to yourself. You're having this conventional discourse with yourself to train yourself until you understand that. And that understanding now You can hold or you can have without continuing in this conceptual analysis. So you have. It's an analytical understanding or it's a understanding that comes with reasoning with yourself about your about what the self is in relationship to your experience.

[18:11]

Perhaps from this kind of discussion, but the understanding that you're working with when he says. Guarded with right understanding is actually non-conceptual. It's a non-conceptual analytic understanding. Your understanding is non-conceptual and it arises from conceptual analysis. But the understanding is no longer conceptual. It is non-conceptual. So it dovetails with your concentration practice, which is also non-conceptual. And it dovetails with the nature of the self, the ultimate nature of the self, which is that it is free of conceptual elaboration.

[19:16]

In other words, emptiness. So there's the first aspect of developing this non-conceptual training or training your mind or your attention into non-conceptuality, which, again, that with whatever conceptions arising, you don't get involved. You don't grasp. You don't elaborate. Calming in this way. then one needs to reason with oneself. The standing habits of conceptual elaboration have not yet been encountered. The standing habits of this is mine, this is my jacket, this is what I wear,

[20:19]

This is how I look good. And, you know, I'm a down jacket wearing guy. So we have these unanalyzed, unquestioned, unreasoned questions about the self. If we don't get involved with them We calm down. But they have not yet been totally discredited. They still have plenty of money in the habit bank. Now that we're calm, it would be good to study these ideas of self had almost no examination before, which had been almost never looked at and certainly not methodically looked at.

[21:30]

This little is the first time, I guess, the Buddha did this with his students, but he does it again and again in many, many ways. And most of the ways he did then are continued down through the centuries and even elaborated more by some of his disciples. So, again, he's saying that... Whatever material forms arising, whatever feelings arising, they're regarded with this understanding. And then he says, if you regard them in this way, so some feeling, some form, some understanding, you don't get involved with it, plus you also understand, not just that you're not involved in it, you also understand this is not me.

[22:48]

You understand that. And when you regard things in this way, he says, when you regard a form this way, you become in regard to the form. Like, you know, nobody owns a Tassajara when they see that green jacket has much reaction to it. Almost everybody's dispassionate towards that jacket. Because everybody looks at that. It's very easy for people to look at that jacket and say, that's not me. That's not mine. That's not what I am. I don't need that jacket. So everybody's dispassionate. Almost everybody's dispassionate towards that jacket. When you have this kind of understanding, you're dispassionate towards all jackets.

[23:51]

All Zafras, all Oriyokis, all colors, sounds, smells. You see them that way. You're dispassionate. And being dispassionate, greed, lust fades. And with the fading of it, the heart is liberated. So that's what they realized at that time. And so I've alluded to how this Buddha's instruction of seeing thus, Bhikshus, a wise and noble disciple becomes dispassionate towards material form and so on. This is similar to Buddha saying, Bhikshus, train yourself thus.

[24:56]

The material form, there will be just material form. In other words, in the scene, there will be just the scene. In the herd, there will be just the herd. So there he's training you not to get involved in the first place with these forms. But in this way, if you practice this way, he says you will not identify with it. If If for you in the scene there's just a scene, then you will not identify with it, he says. In other words, you won't say, that's mine. This is me. This is myself. This is what I am. So this is the same practice as in the scene, there will be just a scene. So again, it's also the same practice as mine like a wall. The only difference is that which is not said in the usual description of mind like a wall is that the Buddha brings up the issue of self for study to see if that issue and then if the issue of body and mind can be brought up without getting involved

[26:31]

without any identification occurring, without any identification of this self with materiality. So I thought of saying something and I thought. This sounds almost like setting up a demon or something, but anyway, we have this. I'm proposing to you that we have a habitual mode. Actual functioning or a habitual mode of mental functioning. Habitual and innate. And that is that we conceive of a self and then we don't question whether the self is the same as our physical and mental experience.

[27:47]

We don't question that and we don't question whether it's the same or different from our physical and mental experience. the I, and feeling like it is separate. Even though we don't stop and think whether it is or not, we do think it is separate from our body and mind. Now, our body and mind means physical and mental experience of our own body, but it also means physical and mental experience of all things in the universe. So we actually think that there's a self which is something separate from all experience, which I've mentioned before. We actually carry the entire universe plus something. We carry that with us, that assumption. And we don't question it, usually.

[28:51]

There is a mode which does not question it, and that mode comes to us. We've all got that. It's like... So we've got this mode of being, which you can be sure you've got, which imagines that the self exists separate from the body-mind, and doesn't question it, doesn't analyze it, doesn't reason about it. And that little bugger holds you in place. the mode of existence we call birth and death. That little operation locks us into cyclic misery. And that's my proposal to you. It's a little, it's like a little, you know,

[29:57]

It's a mode of consciousness that powerfully implicates life to suffering. And continuous. And it's self-perpetuating. This self which is imagined as separate from body-mind experience, does not actually exist. It's just, you know, an idea. But the imagination of it does exist. And that, again, based, depending on that image, depending on that concept, depending on that rather

[30:59]

We are locked into suffering. Now, when that idea is dropped, the main connector to suffering is dropped. There's another one about connecting to the self of things, but this is the self of the person. Before I left last time, I asked you to see if you could find what I was just talking about, namely the idea, the image, the concept of a self that actually is separate from the five aggregates.

[32:03]

Now, if you find a self that's not separate from the five aggregates, then you can see, well, if it's not separate, is it the self or is it the five aggregates? And in that case, the self won't hold up because you'll see that actually what the self is is just a, you know, just a feeling. or a smell or an idea. But that's not what we mean by self. And that takes us back to this first analysis here. But actually, we think that there's a self which is not one of those. And that's what I wondered if you could find. So there you are with that continuing question about whether you can find this image of a self

[33:44]

of an I that's on its own, that inherently exists. And then, of course, you also are simultaneously finding the mind which thinks that. So you're finding both the image plus the net plus the mind which imagine such a thing. Starting today at noon service, we're going to be chanting two chapters from Nagarjuna's fundamental verses on the middle way. After 18. One is 15's examination of self nature and the other one's examination of self and.

[34:52]

Self and entities, I think. So to me, this is. kind of like I feel this great optimism that one or more person could actually identify this amazing condition, which is the condition for your suffering and the condition for your bondage, and therefore is also for your liberation and the condition for your freedom from suffering. Because it is actually through identifying to spot this idea and the mind which thinks it, that is both your hindrance and it's also the door to freedom.

[36:03]

You can actually find this and be steady with it and not be involved with it. in terms of attaching to it or wishing it would go away or not conceptually elaborate it, then we have at our disposal something which can be dropped through study. And the dropping of it will make this practice period worthwhile. If one person would do this, the rest of us would be satisfied, right? We knew somebody found this deluded mind and became liberated from it. That would certainly be worth our effort. It's right nearby. You know? If you move too much, you won't be able to see it.

[37:09]

You've got to be still and calm and not involved in this mess. It's a rather complicated situation. It's all tangled up inside. It's there. You kind of know it is, I guess. What I'm talking about sounds familiar. But to be clear and steady and uninvolved And then to methodically examine it. This is quite a feat. The ways to be present with your experience in this

[38:11]

way that there's no involvement outwardly and no passing inwardly. And then the way of being with the self or the I, if it should happen to appear. It's a way of describing The words to use to describe how to be with it are endless. So the early way is this analysis of the five skandhas. But later ways are cease all involvements outwardly. Inwardly, no panting or gasping. And then, the fire god is here for fire.

[39:21]

And when Ching Fung said that to Superintendent Tse, Superintendent Tse forgot all about not getting involved in concepts. and went right ahead and conceptually elaborated on the instruction which was given to somebody who is not conceptually elaborating. A calm person is now being told how to study the self. Somebody who's not involved with what's happening. Somebody who's ceased to be involved with concepts. Someone in a non-conceptual mode. who is calm, is now being told how to study the self. How to study the self. How? The fire god is here to study fire.

[40:30]

When he heard that, he got very elaborative conceptually and did the opposite of what the intention was. And then, He thought that was insight. Could you believe doing the opposite of insight seems like insight? First of all, he got excited, and then he had insight. Insight with excitement is, say what you want about that. It's craziness. So then he goes and thinks he doesn't have to see the teacher anymore. So the teacher says, what's up? And he says, I don't have to see the teacher anymore because I am crazy. And the teacher says, you know, you don't really understand so well. That's what I thought. Then he comes back again. But this time he comes back apologizing, paying his respects,

[41:36]

and saying, maybe I do need to study. And not getting involved in that. And then the teacher says, the fire god, he says, what is the self? The fire god is here to look at fire. This time, however, the instruction, but... does not get involved, does not elaborate with the instruction, which is what the instruction is saying to do with the instruction, and which is instructing you what is the self. It's a conventional presentation about how to see how the self is. It's a conventional presentation which says not elaborate on this conventional presentation and you will understand the self.

[42:49]

And The question, what is Buddha, it's the same question. What is Buddha is the same question as what is the self. Self is not Buddha, but when you understand what self is, you understand what Buddha is. And when you understand what Buddha is, you understand what self is. It's like I quoted Suzuki Roshi. Forget about yourself, you understand yourself. And when you understand yourself, you're seeing Buddha. Forget about yourself, you see Buddha's teaching. How do you forget about yourself? Well, it's hard to forget about yourself and see what you think yourself is.

[44:03]

So, it may be necessary that we sit quietly here until the self appears to us, the meditator, and then that we continue to sit quietly when it appears until forget it. And then what do we have? Breath, we have body, we have feelings, we have the five skandhas. So Huichao says to Fa Yan, what is Buddha? You are Hui Chau.

[45:04]

Want to know what Buddha is? You are John. You are Kevin. Did you notice that before I mentioned that? You are Eleanor. Were you aware of that? That you're carrying that around? Or perhaps you think you're not carrying it around. And you don't have to see the teacher because you're not carrying it around anymore. Well, this is nice. So you're doing fine. Because there you are, not carrying it around. You, who does not carry it around. You, who's one thing and carrying it around and it or another. You got it. There you are. There it is. That's the thing.

[46:07]

But again, I don't recommend... You don't have to ask this question, Who am I? What is the self? What is Buddha? You don't have to ask that question before... you realize this mind like a wall. First of all, don't get involved in anything. Then, let these questions, what is self, arise. And See what you find. Any questions or comments? Yes?

[47:17]

Well, it sounds like a demon to say that this consciousness, which imagines a self, and doesn't have any questions about it, and imagines a self separate from the body and mind, something other than the body and mind, something that lives all by itself, an inherently existing self, that's the demon. That's the thing which locks our life into a painful rut. That's what I meant by kind of like setting up a demon. So what's being imagined is just an illusion, but there is this imagination, there is this idea, and there is non-examination. Conventionally speaking, there is this miserable world that we're locked into because of thinking that way.

[48:33]

That's what I meant by the demon. Is that clear? And, you know, it seems likely that all of us have such an innate, habitual consciousness, which is doing this pretty much nonstop and keeping us locked into this mode. Okay? Noah's next. You mean could you use that line as a meditation instruction? Sure. But what really makes this thing cook is if you can find this me that is being conceived of as on its own.

[49:35]

Rather than experience. Because a lot of people can see the self. It's sort of mixed in there with experience. Right. I guess you could say, well, I guess sometimes I feel like that smell. That's who is that? That's me. You know, or, you know, what body is it? Oh, it's mine. So it's in the sense of body is kind of mixed together. A lot of people have that sense. But the actual additional experience. attitude that this thing actually is separate from that stuff. That's the real clincher. So if you can identify that and then apply that instruction or that teaching to this, then you're really working at the root of unhappiness and misconduct. You're subjecting it to a study, to a comment, to an examination. It's not just like sitting there ruining and causing trouble for everybody else anymore.

[50:43]

It's been seen and it's being disciplined. It's being meditated upon. It's being massaged. It's being loosened. Analysis means to undo. But again, it should be done in a state of basically not getting involved in any of this. So you're calm and buoyant. So you can keep the study up. If you get involved, then you're going to get agitated and this whole process is going to collapse again. That's why you've got to continue to practice mind like a wall. When you identify, when you see this demon, and when you apply teachings like the Jewelmare Samadhi to it, you have to continue to be calm. in order for this to come to fruition. Okay? Maybe I'm deluding myself because I think my sense of self is tied in with my bodily and mental experience.

[51:50]

So is that the common delusion? No. I don't even realize we have this other sort of an autonomous. Yeah, it was clear. So you're saying that you do have a sense of your sense of self being mixed in with body mind experiences. So that's that's not a delusion. There's that sense that it's mixed in. In addition, I'm proposing that in addition to that, which seen is that you think, yeah, yeah, it's mixed in there. But actually, that thing that's mixed in there actually is inherently existing. And one of the ways to surface that is to see is, well, it's mixed in there, but is it actually the same as those things are mixed in with, or is it really different? So by further studying, you can maybe start to see that, yeah, it's mixed in there, but really there is all that stuff, plus there's something else that's not included in all that stuff that really is not really totally included.

[52:57]

There is something else. Yeah. So the fact that you feel like it's mixed in with the five skandhas, that's fine. And the more you watch that, the closer you are to getting in touch with the fact that you think that there's something which is maybe quite similar to the thing you thought was mixed in, but it's the belief in its inherent existence is the thing you haven't found yet. That's the thing. Yeah. It's the belief in the inherent existence. It's belief in this inherently existing self. Because there is a sense of self that we have. There's such a phenomena, a sense of self or a person, like your carol. There's that. But is that an inherently existing thing?

[53:59]

Or is there something related to that that's inherently existing? And that's kind of subtle. And that's what I'm trying to bring into the light. Yes, Jane. Can you say a little more about really thinking about our experience Well, I guess he's saying, well, yourself is, you know, sort of you're concerned about it and it's concerned about you. Yourself wants the best for yourself, right? Yourself wants you to be happy. You want to take care of yourself. So if yourself was the same as your experiences, then you would just tell your experiences what to be, just like you tell yourself what to be, supposedly. Right.

[55:07]

So maybe that instruction, maybe in those days, people, you know, the way they thought about themselves was, you know, well, I can do this and I can do that. Right. I can think this. People thought that. Maybe they did. So. If you can think whatever you want, then you should be able to think whatever you want. That would be the idea. So, if that doesn't work for you, then we have to try something else. There's many different types of examples or reasonings that can be used to try to surface the place where you think. that you inherently exist. Or, in this case, these people could, by this instruction, actually be able to say and think about everything that happened. This is not myself.

[56:09]

This is not mine. This is not what I am. That somehow they were convinced by what he said. Convinced. So either you would go over this more or try to find some other reasonings to convince yourself. Is thinking what you say? Thinking is part of five skandhas. Thinking, well, what we usually mean by thinking is that the overall pattern of a given consciousness, the way it's sort of like organized, where it's directed, sort of. That's one of the formations. The idea is the perception. Whatever is being perceived, that's a concept.

[57:14]

Yes, it does. I said the idea of self arises from the five skandhas. Yeah, it arises from all five, but it is one of them. It's the perception. When you have a perception, that's the third skandha. The perception is self. That's self. Like, oh, that's me. Actually, you have this little screen up there, and they show pictures of Vicki and Owl and Carol, right? You go, Vicki, Owl, Carol, and then you have a picture of Jane. So you have this concept, and you see this face up there that looks like something or other, and you say, oh, that's Jane. And you say, that's me. I say it's Jane. You say it's me. So you have a concept there that you're perceiving, which is by you called me and called Jane. And so we have two different concepts looking at the same color and shapes up there.

[58:29]

So the concept arises with consciousness, with colors, with consciousness, colors, consciousness. Feelings. Mental formations. All those come up together. To produce the perception. In your case. The happy perception. Oh it's me. Receiving the award. For the best sense student. Of the session. It's me. That's. That's. So all five are. One of them is the concept of self. But. Even if the concept is not so-called self or me, even if what's being perceived is blue, there could still be this sense, this belief. We've got blue, we've got red, but we've always got this inherently existing self.

[59:34]

So when I see blue, I'm nervous. I'm always unhappy and locked into bondage to this belief, which is being held all the time. It's not being consciously perceived. It's not being made, converted into a concept so I can see, oh yeah. But habit is there. It's just not manifested as something I'm aware of at the time. What's good is to get it out there so you can be aware of it. and see that the idea, the concept exists, but if it's studied, it loses its hold on us. Yes? Whose hand is up? Bert? Well, I would caution against saying that there's nothing out there and say it more like what you're seeing is mind.

[60:58]

It's not that there really isn't anything there, but that your perception of whatever might be there is your perception, not the thing. So in terms of your experience. You have no experience of the. See the difference between that and saying there isn't anything out there, there's nothing out there. I might not be getting what you're saying, but I'm just saying that for what your original statement, I couldn't like say, OK, fine, we got that. I disagreed with the original statement. So you can find some other way to get at it without starting with something. You said, how does that relate to X? As though I was going to accept X as the premise for the further discussion.

[61:59]

And I didn't want to try some other way. Yes. No, not necessarily. Again, the idea of self and others, okay, the view of self and others, that category can exist, can arise without you thinking whatever you just said. What did you say? Yes. Right. One can see those categories of self and other without thinking that one's here and one's there. The view which discriminates between self and other can be dropped while the self and other still arise.

[63:00]

To get involved with self and other, to conceptually elaborate on self and other, is to say they're different. And one's here and one's over there. That's an elaboration of self and other. So, we're not talking about annihilating or dissolving the category of self and other. We're talking about giving up the view that discriminates between them or separates them as here and there. But, okay? Usually, people do separate them, do have the view of that they're different, do have the view of differentiating between them. That's the usual way. We're talking about giving up that view. So you can say, I, Bert, have that view and I hold that view that self and other are separate, are different.

[64:09]

I'm here and you're there. I have that view. You can have that view. You can tell me that. But you don't have to have that view. The category of self and other still are rising. Okay? Do you have a further question about that? Other there, and that this self exists on its own, differentiated and separate, independent of that other thing called other. That is the basic delusion right there. Giving that up is where we practice. Practice in giving up that view. But if you haven't found the view, then you're holding on to it probably. You've got to get it out there, which you just did.

[65:10]

But you didn't take credit for it. You thought it was like Buddhism. It's actually just birdism. Now you've identified birdism. Study birdism and you'll become free of birdism. And then you'll have Buddhism. But that doesn't apply to everybody else. You can't become free of birdism. You already think you are. You think you're independent of birdism. But he doesn't. He thinks it's Buddhism. Right, Bert? Yeah, well, you should find out because that's what you believe. What you think is what you believe, probably. And you should find out what you think so you find out what you believe. And when you find out what you can believe, you can find out what you should forget about. But if you don't know what you believe, then you're just going to go ahead and believe it. Believe it, you know. I don't know what... I know I'll keep it up as long as I don't look at it. But if you start looking at it, You're not going to be able to believe it indefinitely. You know, maybe 50 more lifetimes.

[66:12]

But anyway, eventually you'll stop believing what it is that you're thinking. In the discrimination between self and other as like independent of each other. You stop believing in an independent Bert. Yes, Meg? I don't know if it's Bert, but it may be something like that. Well, because the difference is that you could be thinking there's the independent me, who's independent of everything, who inherently exists, independent of everything, plus everything else is mine. There's me plus mine. I own the whole universe. Rather than the whole universe, minus the inherently existing independent operator who owns it. Minus that. It's gone. It's like the one thing I can't remember anymore because I have really studied one thing.

[67:14]

The one thing I know about, and that is this idea that I inherently exist. That I have studied. So that's what this story about the superintendent says. It's inside that discussion where somebody says the self is Buddha. The entire universe in ten directions is a true human body, but the entire universe in ten directions is a body that belongs to the person who inherently exists. That's the universe which should be operating more in line with what you would like it to be doing, but isn't. That's why you're suffering, because if there was an inherently existing self, then at least your own body and mind should be Ah, the West has recovered. You've been waiting.

[68:16]

Yes? Self-seeking self? Buddha seeking Buddha? Yes. Yes. Is that kind of seeking the same as what? Well, it's just the example of me wanting a nice jacket just sounds like greed based on belief in my inherent existence. But to turn around and look to see if I can find my belief in my inherent existence is quite a different type of shopping. The desire for the jacket seems to be based on the belief that the material form could be mine.

[69:32]

and that there would be somebody, some inherently existing self that could own the jacket. So that's quite familiar, right? Okay. Thinking that the jacket will find itself. Thinking that the jacket will find itself. Thinking that the jacket will find itself. Thinking that the self could be defined by material events. Yes. Is that the same as what? You mean, is that thinking diluted? Is that what you mean? Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Everything you do based on the idea of an inherently existing self is to.

[70:39]

The activity of shopping for a jacket itself. Yeah. Yeah. If if if if one that one inherently exists. Basically, everything that's done is connected to that belief. So everything's done to try to coordinate with and harmonize with this inherently existing self. So then you get a jacket if it goes with that idea, and you try not to get a jacket if it doesn't go with that idea. So like, if you think, if you think, okay, I don't know what, female homo sapien, who's like into, you know, medieval warrior ship.

[71:51]

And she inherently, so we're going to go by you know, some metal clothes. Because that makes sense with this idea she has of herself. But if she was not an inherently existing self, I mean, if she didn't think of herself as inherently existing, here's this homo sapien female that's into that stuff, you wouldn't, it wouldn't necessarily follow that you would go buy a set of armor. Wouldn't necessarily follow. Because you wouldn't see this self as inherently existing. Wait a second. You said, if I don't see myself as habitually existing, I mean inherently existing, if you don't see it that way, you don't have to worry about habits not surfacing.

[73:03]

All the habits come from that. As a matter of fact, when you don't believe in your inherently existing self anymore, you don't have to worry about the habits surfacing because they probably will surface, but it's not a problem. Habits, these greasy, grimy habits surfacing are a problem for the one who believes in an inherently existing self. That person doesn't want these things to happen. The person who doesn't any longer believe in this inherently existing self, all these bad habits that were accumulated under the auspices of belief in inherently existing self. Those are just now opportunities to develop virtue. We're no longer afraid of our evil ways. Because we've uprooted the main problem. Now, basically, we're just on the job.

[74:06]

We're on the Buddha job. No problem. But if you're messing with your bad habits, but still holding on to this basic belief that you're an inherently existing person, well, that's nice. Thank you for working on these habits and thank you for Try not to indulge them too much and hurt us by acting them out too much. We appreciate that. But if you're still not uprooting the basic problem, the main job has not yet been done. So we have to get to the main job. That's what he says. You have to get to what needs to be done. This needs to be done. Until we do that, basically, we're not working on the main issue. Everything we do, working on the main issue, but not directly working on it, is great. But the thing you said, if I do that, well, that's the point.

[75:10]

If you did that, you have done what you have to do. And then everything else basically falls right in line with that. There's still plenty more work to do. But you've really done your job. You've done the hard thing. You've addressed problems. the basic problem and become free of it. But you need to address the basic problem. We need to address it. And we need to address it calmly and joyfully. We need to address it with a mind like a wall. Yes? You can see that?

[76:13]

I think that's true. I just wondered if you could see it. You're repeating what you heard from somebody else. That's right. That is the main problem. The thing that's stopping us from studying the thing that's stopping us from studying the thing that's stopping us, you know, that's how it works, you know. So as you say, let your mind be like a wall. I get the sense that I am supposed to reach a decent stage of Shanta before I start really going to work on this field. Yes, it is okay to work on these things at the same time. And is it okay for me to tell you to work on this question

[77:23]

please do so calmly. And it's okay for you to say, I'm not calm yet. And for me to say, don't get involved that you're not calm yet. I don't have a mind like a wall. Well, have a mind like a wall about the fact that you don't have a mind like a wall. Don't get involved in the fact that you're involved. Okay? You get to be the way you are all the time It's really okay the way you are. Okay? No matter what you are, it's okay. Don't get involved. Did I answer your question okay? Good. I don't know who's next, but maybe it's either Dana or Jerome. You're sitting in anxiety, yes? You're suffering.

[78:26]

You're sitting in suffering and anxiety and then what did you say? What else but the self is seeking for the end of the suffering? Oh, what is seeking the end of suffering? Well, I think that, again, what I recommend is that you, this concept, what is seeking for the end of suffering? I recommend you don't get involved with that for now. That's what I'd recommend. So you got the suffering. Don't get involved in that. But also, you know, don't avoid it. It means don't distract yourself from your suffering by indulgences, sense, pleasure, or suffering. Gently, kindly settle with your suffering. Don't get involved with your suffering. It's the way to be intimate with your suffering. And then while suffering, when these other things arise, which aren't necessarily so painful, but just they do arise, like what is it that wants to become free of this situation?

[79:39]

And those kinds of with those either for now. That particular question, I'm not particularly recommending that you get into that one. What is it that's trying to become free of suffering? Don't get involved with that. Now, what happens if this image of an inherently existing Jerome should happen to pop up in front of you while you're sitting there? Am I saying, great, this is what I've been asking you to find. It's finally showed up. Now get involved with that. No, don't get involved with that either. However, the thing, the basic delusion has just shown itself to you. It said, hey, this neighborhood's safe. The mind can come out of the closet now because this guy is gentle and kind with whatever happens. He doesn't get involved. So we can lift down some of the borders and some of the locks and walls can be set down.

[80:45]

Things can be a little bit more relaxed around here. We can kind of admit what we're up to here. We don't have to hide anymore and lie anymore. pretend like we're a good Zen student or something. We can show our delusions. So then the delusion show, at that time, it's the same way. Which again will, I think, promote intimacy with this issue of this belief in this inherently existing self. You can't be intimate with an inherently existing self because there isn't one. But you can be intimate with the belief in this inherently existing self. If that should happen to show up, really don't get involved with that. Don't run away from it. Don't try to get it. Don't try to bring it and show it to me. Stay cool. Totally cool. What I've been waiting for has finally showed up. Okay. One time Suzuki Roshi said, I want you to go to Japan in maybe less than a month.

[81:49]

So I said, okay. And I went over to Japantown to the consulate to get the papers for sponsorship. And I brought them back and I said, here's the papers for sponsorship in Japan. He said, what are those? I said it again. He said, oh, thanks. He took them and walked off. I never heard anything more about Japan. So, yeah, don't get involved. you most need to study. The most precious topic, in some sense, is your most preciously held delusion. This other one that you said, you know, what is it that's seeking for? It's kind of a distraction for now. We can deal with it. You're highly enlightened. We can deal with those kinds of things. You can have a theme car park. Jerome Presents. Buddhist theme park. What is it that's seeking for the end of suffering?

[82:53]

That can be like one of the areas of a theme park. You know, and you have little enlightened people showing people around. But in the meantime, you have some really major stuff to work on, Jerome. That stuff's like way down the line, unimportant. Yes? It's obvious when it's happening? Yes. If it's happening, you're getting involved in it and you lost the mind like a wall. Pardon? You said, is it obvious when a mind like a wall is happening? Or as opposed to? It might be obvious to somebody else when the mind like a wall is happening versus... pretending like the mind like a wall is happening. Somebody else might be able to tell it.

[83:53]

But in your case, to tell the difference would not be the mind like a wall discrimination. Mind like a wall is not a discrimination like this is mind like a wall and this is not. Mind like a wall is when the discrimination, this is mind like a wall and this is not, when that discrimination happens, that you don't get involved in that discrimination. That's a mind like a wall. It's not the discrimination being able to tell the two. That's mind like a wall. But somebody else, or even yourself, could tell the difference, but that's not mind like a wall. That's just a judgment. That's just a judgment which you don't get involved with if you're practicing mind like a wall. Does that make sense? Pardon? About what? You're worried that you could trick yourself into thinking that you've got a mind like a wall? You're worried into tricking yourself, the possibility of tricking yourself into thinking that you're cool. You're worried about thinking that you could trick yourself into thinking like really a good Zen student.

[84:57]

Oh, you're worried about somebody else might do that. OK, so, you know. Basically, worry is, generally speaking, except on certain Buddhist holidays, worry is an unwholesome dharma. Once a practice period, you have a skit night, and during skit night, you can worry. But basically, worry is unwholesome. So don't worry that somebody might trick themselves into thinking that they're a good Zen student. Don't worry that somebody might be able to Not trick themselves into being sure. Like, I could be tricking myself into thinking I'm a good Zen student, but if I think I'm a bad Zen student, then I wouldn't be tricking myself, right? That would just be true. So, of course, that's another trick. So don't worry that people, perhaps including yourself, would trick oneself into some deluded state. Don't worry about it. Assume that that's going on.

[86:01]

What form of delusion is happening? It's probably there's some delusion. Probably. If there isn't, no problem. But if there is, let's find out what it is. Don't worry that we are deluded. Find out in what way we are. Like we hear other people have. Like we hear these Buddhist teachers ranting and raving about calmly for centuries that people have this problem. Do we have it too? And where is it? How is it functioning? Where does it live? Let's find it. Let's not worry that it's the case. And just sit on, oh, I'm so worried, you know, maybe I'm... How are you deluded? Yes, Adam? Son of Adam? Son of Adam. You've heard a practice instruction which is what?

[87:04]

Well, I think to no inherent self. No inherent self is, that's emptiness, right? No inherent self. So you want to understand how what you just said relates to emptiness? What you just said has no inherent self. That's how it relates. I mean, that's one way to realize it. Pardon? You can say Rosie is queen of the universe. Yes, you could say that. I didn't hear an inherent self created there. I didn't hear an inherent self created there. I just heard A verbal expression, Rosie is the queen of the universe. I didn't hear an inherent self created there.

[88:10]

I didn't hear that. Are you telling me that you did? You did? Oh, okay. That's more like it. Yeah. The last one you didn't feel comfortable with? Yeah. Well, that is the first example, though. That's the main one. Usually we don't actually go around positing inherent existence to other people, usually. We just say, I inherently exist, and they're on some other track. They're not me. Now, they may all be interrelated and everything and not have any inherent existence. They may be sort of like working in harmony with each other, but me They may have some kind of union that they're members of. Like they have the queen of the universe union. Thousands of women are in it where they all get to be members, you know. They get together and they knit and stuff, you know, and they share the responsibility of being queen in the universe.

[89:16]

But I, I am the king of the universe over here. We don't share because we can't, because we're independent. How can you share? You're independent. I mean, I'd like to, but what can I say, folks? I'm independent of you. That's the thing to watch, which you're not so comfortable with. Thanks for admitting that you're not so comfortable thinking that you're king of the universe. You usually don't feel comfortable with that idea. You usually don't admit you think it. You didn't really admit it, you just sort of like tossed that off. You didn't like get behind that, did you? You didn't say like, yeah, I really am. I'm not just saying that, I actually think that. But that's sort of, what? Well, great. That's great that you can notice that most people will not, most guys won't admit that.

[90:19]

Who, me, think I'm king of the universe? No, no. But thinking that you're an independent individual Self is like thinking you're the king of the universe. I mean, you're basically thinking, I am the self-existent one. That's the name, that's Ishvara, right? The king of the... The self-existent one. You're the big-time king. Sovereign. Self-existent. Independent. Self-made. I'm a self-made king. That's the opposite of emptiness, right? No, it's not necessarily another way to think you're king of the universe. It is just a phenomena, a conventional phenomena called, whatever it was, identifying with whatever, what was it?

[91:22]

Identifying with pure awareness is, right now, they're just words. And you hear those words, those conventional expressions, and you might try to try those on to create some kind of state or some kind of meditation. That would be fine. This is just phenomena. But generally speaking, think that that particular phenomena, plus our lunch, plus Tassajara, plus your girlfriend, all these things you attribute, you impute inherent existence to, And you're based fundamentally on attributing inherent existence to the self. So then we project it on everything. But this habit is what we need to become intimate with. Because if we're not intimate with it, we are driven by it. We're driven by other things too, but if we're not driven by this, the other things aren't so bad, like we're driven by, you know, if it's really cold, we want to get warm, we're hungry, we want to eat.

[92:34]

These things are not so bad if we don't believe in this inherent existence of the self. I would suggest you don't get involved with that. Huh? Or you just got involved in it there again. suggesting a mind like a wall mode of inquiry you just brought up there are you getting involved fantastic Wow somebody at least one of us could I what It means don't get involved.

[93:35]

You have your glasses on. The God of fire is here looking for fire. What is the characteristic of fire? Don't get involved in the characteristic of fire. I'm not answering what fire is. I'm telling you how the god of fire looks at fire. If you prefer, you can change it to goddess of fire. And then the goddess of fire is here to look at fire. Ordinary vessel virgins get involved in fire, I suppose. The goddess of fire does not get involved with fire. Do you understand, Elka?

[94:52]

Don't try. You look like you were trying. I can see those trying muscles. You were trying, Elka. That's getting involved. Don't try. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Sure, sure. Okay, Lil Zen Master. Yeah, sure. Uh-huh. Whatever you say, boss. Okay, fine. But I've got things to do over here. I've got to sit here. I can't stop getting involved. Fine for you. Probably when you stop talking, you'll get involved. But I, Elka, can't just stop getting involved. I don't really want a mind like a wall. I want a mind that's going to figure out what's going on here with this God looking for the fire. Right, Elka? Yeah. Well, stop that. Just stop it. Okay? Thank you. Two, that's two. John and Elka. Who else doesn't want to practice mind like a wall? You don't want to?

[96:03]

Well, stop that. Stop that not wanting to. And do not get involved in wanting to practice a mind like a wall or not wanting to practice a mind like a wall. Bads and students. But you know, Better a bad Zen student than no Zen student at all. Better a Zen student who's involved in being a Zen student than no Zen student at all. Because at least, you know, you know what your problem is. Like we had this student here and she went to visit a friend in over there. And she visited this friend, and the friend took her to a pool hall.

[97:06]

Do you know what a pool hall is? Do you know what a pool hall is, Elka? Do you know billiards? They play low-class billiards. They smoke cigarettes, and they hit the balls around. And they gamble. So... This Zen student from this monastery got taken to that place by one of her friends. So she went there and played pool. And she drank and smoked. And after she left, one of the people in the pool hall asked her friend, said, who was that? And he said, oh, she was a monk from Tassajara. And the guy said, well, how come she was drinking and smoking and playing pool? Said, because she's a bad monk. still a monk, though.

[98:06]

So we're bad monks, right? Because we're involved. We're involved, but we're still, at least we're bad monks. We're trying to be like Bodhidharma. Or rather, we're trying not to be involved in being like Bodhidharma. We're trying to realize Bodhidharma without getting involved in realizing Bodhidharma. And if you're not trying to to realize Bodhidharma, then you're a bad Zen student. You're a disciple of Bodhidharma if you're a bad Zen student. And if you are trying to be like Bodhidharma, you're a bad Zen student. And if you are Bodhidharma, you're a good Zen student. You're a good Zen student because you're not involved in being a good Zen student. You're not involved in being a bad Zen student. You're not involved in being a priest. You're not involved in being a woman. You're not involved in being a man. And now you're ready to discover if you have any belief in inherent existence of yourself.

[99:17]

It's safe for democracy. Now these deep delusions can surface themselves and be studied. And if they're studied, there will be liberation. powerful hooks, but they can be dropped. They can be looked at, studied, and forgotten. So, you know, this is a very fortunate situation. Elka and John are already sort of like signed up and in the mode. So just copy them and you'll be fine. until the demon shows up. And when the demon shows up, stay cool and keep copying them. And then we can study this idea, this belief, this conception of inherent existence.

[100:35]

deep in the heart of women and men. It's like a universal disease, a transgender disease. And there's a universal called emptiness, which is the non-inherent existence of all phenomena. which is right next to this delusion. It's right there. Carefully, you'll see the other. The medicine's right there next to the disease. So did all the people who had questions reach forward? Great.

[101:44]

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