Good morning, everybody. It's Diane Muschel-Hamilton on the line, and I'm really happy and pleased to be welcoming you to this summer course that is being taught by Taigan Dan Layton, who is a very inspiring person from my point of view. He's a Soto Zen priest and teacher, obviously. He's also an academic and an author. I came to his work through two of his books. One is called The Faces of Compassion, about the Buddhist Bodhisattvas, which is going to be the subject matter of the three weeks of our course, and also a very wonderful book, Zen Questions. What really impresses me is that he's a very committed practitioner. He's, as I said before, a scholar, and that he's one of these rare individuals who embodies the tradition thoroughly in both his teaching and his being, and at the same time is able to communicate and translate into language that really resonates and makes sense for our time.

[01:02]

His Zen Center is in Chicago. He's the founder of Ancient Dragons and Zen Gate. He's the guiding teacher there and it's a great pleasure and it's also a privilege really for us to have this opportunity to be in his company. The fact that we're able to be online and in this technological sort of virtual temple and receive a Dharma talk on Saturday morning over the phone is really quite extraordinary. So welcome everyone to the course and also welcome Teigen and thank you so much for doing this with us. So I'm very happy to be here again. Can you all hear me okay? I hope so. So we're going to be talking about the Bodhisattvas. Today what I want to do is three sections. First I want to talk about just the idea of the bodhisattvas and what they are and why I'm talking about them as a way of introducing really the whole tradition of Mahayana Buddhism.

[02:09]

So I'm going to talk about that first for a while, then I will talk specifically a little bit about Shakyamuni Buddha as a model for all the bodhisattvas And then the last section this morning will be about Manjushri's Bodhisattva of Insight or Wisdom. And at the end of each section, I want to try to have a little bit of discussion. So we'll pause then for questions. So starting in on the Bodhisattva ideal. So the Bodhisattva's, the Bodhisattva teaching from, which is the teaching of Mahayana Buddhism, all of North Asia, And again, I don't know how many of you have read the book, Bases of Compassion, that goes into the details of all this, but I want to just kind of cover the basics and the Bodhisattva ideal applies both to outer guides, so the 47 Bodhisattva figures we're going to be talking about represent figures that are commonly

[03:16]

venerated and called upon, and we could even say worshipped. They're on altars, so probably some of them at least are in the temples there in Utah, as well as in our temple in Chicago. But they also very much, from the beginning of the tradition, represent inner potentials or inner qualities of practitioners. So everyone here, all of you listening, are doing Bodhisattva practice. and Zen is part of the Bodhisattva tradition, and is very much part of our liturgy, and so Zen is part of the Bodhisattva tradition. But this is kind of confusing, because the Bodhisattvas, especially the Bodhisattva figures, are kind of outside, and we call on Bodhisattvas. So we can understand that in various ways. We could understand that kind of literally as, you know, Manjushri or Kanon or Kutishvara are outside, and we call on them to to help us, and that's the popular version of the Bodhisattva tradition in Asia.

[04:22]

But we can understand that in different ways, as it literally figures out, or as energies in the world that can be helpful in various ways. But also, these are qualities of spiritual practitioners. These are qualities that we might find in ourselves. So they represent inner potentials. So a part of what I want all of you to do as we look at these seven is to see which of the seven, it may be more than one or maybe one particularly, which of these resonate with your own practice? That might happen in a variety of ways, but which of these seven, one or more, are part of your own pattern of spiritual practice? So as we look at them, and as you read In Faces of Compassion, you may recognize that, but also which of them you might aspire to, which of them inspire you, which of them you would like to be more like.

[05:25]

So we'll look at the stories about them. So each of these seven, just to, well, I'll come back to that and name them, but each of them has a very rich context, very rich iconography, they're represented in particular ways, and that changes in various cultures. And part of the point of this is that these are not just historical or anthropological artifacts from Asian Buddhism, they're alive in our practice. They arise, they arose historically from Zazen, from meditation, from spiritual practice. They appeared and they appear in our practice, they resonate with our practice. but they have this particular imagery, artistically and in figures that are on our altars, that represents aspects of what these figures are. And I talk about them as archetypes because in the same way that, well, in somewhat the same way that Jung talks about archetypes, where the Greek gods and goddesses are archetypes, they represent qualities of spirituality, of our practice.

[06:37]

They're different from the Greek gods and goddesses represent a male and female archetypes, archetypes of sexuality or archetypes of masculine or feminine. The Bodhisattvas are archetypes of spirituality. They represent patterns of spirituality. So partly we see that through the iconography and how they are depicted. Partly we see that through the folklore. and all the stories about them, and that again differs in different cultures, and all of this is developing in our culture, but they also are kind of guidelines to all of the Mahayana schools and sutras. So that's really one of the important reasons for studying them. So I want to come back to that, but what's important to see is that these bodhisattvas are not, again, we don't have to see them only in terms of how they appeared in Tibet or China or Japan or India or Korea.

[07:45]

They do appear in all of those cultures in Vietnam as well. But also, what do they mean to each of us in our practice? So, but looking at them as guidelines to the range of the Buddhist tradition that can be very helpful. So when Buddhism came to China from India, as different schools of Chinese Buddhism developed, they tried to figure out how to make sense of all the different varieties of Buddhism coming from India. and the Chinese word is Panjiao. These were ways of classifying the teachings. So each of the great Chinese Buddhist schools, it took actually four or five hundred years, and this is before Bodhidharma came, to develop Chinese Buddhist schools, and the great Chinese Buddhist schools like Chiantai and Huayan developed their own systems for classifying all of the different sutras, all of the different Indian Buddhist teachings,

[08:58]

usually they would classify these teachings. They would include all the different teachings, but they would classify them hierarchically with their own favored sutra as the highest. But what we can do by looking at these seven Bodhisattva archetypal figures is to do that in a kind of non-hierarchical way. for us as Westerners, we have this benefit of appreciating our Zen traditions and particular lineages and so forth, but also we are receiving, we can receive Buddhism kind of cleanly with, you know, fresh eyes. I mean, well, fresh in the sense that we're, most of us first generation Buddhists and So we have the baggage of our Western cultural and religious traditions, but we can look at Buddhism and take on all of it and look at the whole thing and say, well, what do we find useful?

[10:02]

So these seven Bodhisattva archetypal figures represent a guide to all of the different Mahayana schools and sutras and a way of looking at them and seeing how they fit together. So you all have the Bodhisattva chart that was sent out as a PDF that's at the back of the Faces of Compassion book as well, starting on page 313. It includes a lot more information than you may need, but the point is that each of these seven bodhisattvas has a particular quality, both in terms of the practices that they represent and their iconography, and historical figures they're associated with, and also kind of mythological figures they're associated with, but also they are connected with particular Mahayana schools and sutras.

[11:03]

So it's a way, so these seven represent ways of seeing the Mahayana practices, the Bodhisattva practices, and the sutras and schools. So just to go over this, so we'll be talking about that as we look at each of the seven. Less so today, but when we talk about Manjushri and the others, we'll talk about how they're affiliated. So just to list the seven, Shakyamuni we'll be talking about today, who's kind of the model for all the Bodhisattvas. And he was a Bodhisattva, considered a Bodhisattva even in the early Theravada and early pre-Mahayana Buddhist schools, but his story is really kind of the model for all Bodhisattva practice in lots of ways. And then we'll talk also today about Manjushri, the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, and he's associated with particular teachings and particular practices and particular schools and sutras.

[12:07]

And then, particularly with wisdom or insight, and we'll talk about what that means, and wisdom and insight is balanced with compassion additionally. And next week we're going to be talking about three different versions or aspects of the balance to wisdom in terms of compassion. So the Bodhisattva Samantabhadra, very interesting Bodhisattva figure, and the Bodhisattva Balakiteshvara, the formal Bodhisattva of compassion. and also the Bodhisattva Jizo, or Kshitigarbha in Sanskrit, maybe one of the most popular Bodhisattvas, certainly in Japan. And then the last week we'll be talking about Maitreya, a very, very important and complex Bodhisattva, and Vimalakirti, who's very popular in Zen because Vimalakirti's the enlightened layperson, and so we're all in

[13:10]

Americans and pretty much late, at least from the Japanese traditions, like way practitioners. So what I want to do is, again, have you all think about which of these, as we look at them each, resonates with you particularly in terms of your own practice, but also which of them inspires you. So this is a way of studying and understanding how all of the different schools and sutras fit together and relate to each other, but also seeing the terrain of practice. And at different times in our practice, we may relate to one more than another. And as we study them, we may take on other aspects of practice than what we initially brings us to practice. So that's an important aspect of this, seeing how the bodhisattvas can give us a kind of guideline or roadmap of the whole range of bodhisattva practice.

[14:22]

I want to say something about the exemplars. So in the book, at the end of each chapter on the bodhisattvas, I suggest modern culture figures who in some ways represent that particular Bodhisattva figure. And these, if not, as I try and say in the book that people often misunderstand, I'm not trying to claim these figures as particular Bodhisattvas, but this is a kind of playful way of trying to see how these figures relate to our own world. So in addition to thinking about which of the seven of Bodhisattvas you relate to personally, as you think about them and as you read about them in the book, if you do that, think about people in your own life or culture figures who, aside from the ones that I mentioned, who in some ways represent or embody or express

[15:33]

the aspects of Bodhisattva practice that arise from each of these traditional figures. So again, this is a way of playing with these figures to bring them alive in terms of our own cultural and historical context. The other part of this is the practices. So, excuse me, there are many lists and descriptions of Bodhisattva practices in the tradition. There are the Bodhisattva precepts and the 16 precepts from Sota Zen, from Dogen, but various, kinds of practices, their traditional practices, the Eightfold Path, and so forth, in Buddhism.

[16:36]

I mention in the book the Paramitas, the transcendent practices, in Chapter 3. And they're listed in the chart also. And they're commonly taught as a list of six, starting with generosity and going up to prajna or wisdom. But there's also in the Flower Ornament Sutra, a list of 10, which I use in the book. And this is a way of talking about these figures also and kind of getting the flavor of each one of them. So each of these 10 practices, just again to list them, generosity, ethical conduct, patience, which is so important, the active dynamic practice of patience, and then the practice of effort or energy or enthusiasm. than the practice of samadhi or meditation, meditative stability, than the practice of prajna or insight, which we'll be talking about more in connection with Manjushri today.

[17:40]

And then beyond that, the developed practices of vow and skillful means and powers or use of ability and which is different from wisdom, so it's a way of seeing what wisdom is and isn't. So all of these ten, you know, again, are aspects of our own practice. We all have some relationship to each of these ten, but also a way of looking at these particular seven Bodhisattvas is to see which ones, in terms of the folklore in terms of their roles in the sutras, in terms of, even in terms of their iconography, in terms of how they appear as Bodhisattva figures, which of these practices they specialize in. So again, like all of us, each of these Bodhisattvas is related to various of these practices, many of the practices, but

[18:50]

They seem to be focused on particular ones. For example, Manjushri, who we'll talk about later, of course, is the Bodhisattva of Wisdom, or Prajna, one of these ten, but also particularly of ethical conduct and also of meditation. So each of these Bodhisattvas has a particular combination of practices that they especially express. So part of the work and the fun of looking at these bodhisattvas is to see how they represent particular patterns or stories about bodhisattva practice. Then to look at them and see, to see which historical schools and which teachings or sutras they particularly express. And the other thing is that there's a lot of overlap. So especially when we start to talk about exemplars, you know, we could talk about. I talk about Dr. King, for example, in the Samantabhadra chapter, but we could talk about it in various other chapters probably as well.

[20:00]

So they're not cut and dry divisions. There's a lot of overlap between the Bodhisattvas. The other thing to say is that these seven are, you know, not the only Bodhisattvas in the Mahayana literature by any means. There are many, many, many, many bodhisattvas. In the Flower Ornament Sutra, it talks about myriad bodhisattvas on the tip of every blade of grass or in every atom. So there are many bodhisattvas. Especially in Tibetan Buddhism, there are other bodhisattvas who are very important. But these seven I focus on because they're the major bodhisattvas in East Asian Buddhism. There are others that are important, and in the book I talk about kind of affiliated bodhisattvas with each of these seven, but these seven are the ones that are the most prominent. So again, as kind of archetypal figures, we can look at them in that way. So I'm going to pause now.

[21:06]

This has sort of been a quick introduction to aspects of what the bodhisattvas are. There's a lot more to say about this, but what they are as ideals, how they represent aspects of us, how they are in the world and why we're looking at seven of these in particular and the purposes of that. So at this point, I'd like to open this for some questions, comments, a little bit of discussion before we go on to the next section of today's discussion. So questions, comments. And if you want to bring in other aspects of the material in the first few chapters of the book, please feel free to do that as well. This is Julia. For those of you who may be new to this platform, if you have a question or a comment, please just use your handheld to press 1, and then we'll be able to open up the microphone.

[22:12]

The, uh, Diane and Michael have their hands up. Uh, Michael, why don't I start with you? Yeah. Uh, I wonder if you, well, I think to say when I first came to the practice, one of the things about the Bodhisattva that I suppose as a, I'm bringing my own culture in as a former Protestant Calvinist from the Midwest. There was something about the Bodhisattvas that I saw as, you know, the way they were sort of venerated in the East that seemed a little off-putting. And I appreciate in your book the way you actually bring Jung in, which of course transforms them a little bit into art, psychological archetypes. I wonder if you could address a little bit the way that they arose in popular Buddhism. I think it's helpful to take them out of the sort of, out of the exclusive province, the sort of magical creatures, which I think is the way some of us were sort of initially invested when we came to Buddhism.

[23:33]

Yeah, good question. And I think the point is that, yeah, on some level they are magical creatures on some level, and certainly in popular folk Buddhism in all Asian cultures, they're seen that way. However, looking at the teachings about them in the sutras and from Buddhist teachers, it's clear that they are expressing qualities and that they represent encouragements to particular qualities of being that the practitioner is supposed to emulate. That's made very, very explicit in Vajrayana Buddhism, where the practice is to focus on a particular figure, and there are various practices of using mantra, using mandalas, using mudras,

[24:41]

to identify with a particular, not just Bodhisattvas, but Buddhas and protector figures as well. And the point is for the practitioner to actually become one with that Bodhisattva figure. So that's very, very explicit in the Vajrayana. But I think it's also very much present in the Mahayana. They're inspiring figures who one is supposed to be inspired by. And actually, you know, in Japanese Buddhism, that Vajrayana attitude is kind of under the surface. So in Japanese Zen, certainly, but in all of Japanese Buddhism, before the different schools, before Pure Land, Nichiren, and Zen schools, the Japanese Buddhism, all of the founders of those schools were practicing Tendai, which adopted from Shingon, Japanese Vajrayana, So it underlies a lot of Japanese Buddhism, too, this attitude of... So there's definitely the side of venerating these figures, but also part of the veneration is to see them as inspiring figures who we might emulate, and that's very much part of the tradition, going way, way back.

[26:03]

So that, you know, provide ample license for me to talk about them as psychological qualities and to talk about them as archetypes. That's really there in the original teachings. Of course, I amplify and play with that. And I think, you know, as Westerners, we need to do that. We need to trans... Buddhism has always transformed itself in each new culture it enters, and we need to take it on for, you know, in our own terms as well. Thank you. Diane? Diane, did you have a question? Yes, sorry about that. I had muted myself and I needed to unmute. So, my question and my comment was very similar to what you and Michael are already talking about. I'd like to just say to my students who are also integralists, just as a side comment, to keep in mind that in the evolution of human culture from a human development point of view, that the magic and spiritist phase of human development, which we could locate anywhere from 20,000 to 50,000 years ago, kind of persists in human consciousness.

[27:27]

And then when we reach a kind of post-rational level of consciousness that, believe it or not, that meme of development recapitulates at a higher level. So there's actually a post-rational magic that's available, but I think to Michael's point, and this is my question to Teigen, is that the experience of these figures as arising as interior qualities, as archetypes, as perhaps external, if you will, magical figures, and which in all cases are fundamentally empty, that I guess I would just like for you to invite, or I'm asking the question, how do you let yourself move between those different ways of working with them? I think that's really what the course is going to be, but that's what's on my mind. Yeah.

[28:29]

I think I hear your point and I agree with you. I think it's possible to hold them as both internal potentialities and psychological, to put it that way, psychological qualities, but also, you know, as I said, energies or forces or even beings in the world. So, for example, how does Manjushri express Manjushri in the world? In the folklore, Manjushri appears in various forms, and we can talk about that a little later. And Manjushri will appear to practitioners traditionally as a kind of homeless person. So each of the different figures has its own combination of folklore. So what does that mean? I don't know. I mean, I'm agnostic about all these things. I don't, you know, I'm not trying to persuade anybody about any particular understanding about any of this.

[29:36]

But I can, I'm certainly open myself to feeling like, okay, these figures can be present in the world in various ways. And one of the things that has happened historically is that in Asia, historical figures have been seen as incarnations, to use that word, of particular bodhisattvas. So, for example, His Holiness the Dalai Lama is formally considered in Tibetan Buddhism to be an incarnation of Chenrezig or Avalokiteshvara, the bodhisattva of compassion. And other historical figures have been viewed as incarnations of particular bodhisattvas, so that happens. I was not trying to do that when I was playfully citing exemplars in the chapters who represent those qualities, but it's true that for Manjushri,

[30:50]

Einstein and Bob Dylan and Gertrude Stein and other people I mentioned clearly represent qualities of Manjushri. That's not to say that they are Manjushri or Bodhisattvas even, but just that these energies are in the world and they get expressed in various ways. So I don't think we have to hold to any particular understanding, but I find it helpful to think that there are forces in the world that are that are supporting us. And, you know, particularly as we look, you know, and from the point of mind, point of view of Manjushri, speaking truth to power and, and looking at and speaking about ethics and morality in our age and speaking to the situation of climate damage, which is upon us and how do we speak about that? I find it very helpful, the story in the Lotus Sutra about bodhisattvas living under the ground and springing forth when they're needed, and that's clearly what we need now.

[31:57]

So, you know, I'm happy to think that there may be actually bodhisattvas in the world who are, you know, and one way to think about that is that all the people who are actually people and other beings who are actually working to help liberate all beings. And, you know, I guess I was derelict in not saying from the very outset, the point of the Bodhisattvas is to, is universal liberation. That the Bodhisattvas act not out of selflessness, but out of seeing that one's self is connected to all beings. So the point of the, the understanding of the Bodhisattva is that of deep interconnectedness, that we're all interconnected. And so instead of some practice based on merely some self-help project that we actually all practice with all beings all the time, and that's what the Bodhisattva understands. And so the Bodhisattva vows and dedicates their practice to saving all beings, as we say in the Bodhisattva Vows.

[33:06]

And what that means, of course, is a huge question. It doesn't mean that Zazen fixes everything, but how do we see that the energy of Bodhisattvas in the world is part of the project of awakening all beings and relieving suffering. That's the question, and it's not an easy question. Thank you. Thank you very much. So I will go on to talk a little bit about Shakyamuni, but if there's anybody else who has a quick question, please, you know, whatever it is, push one, or how does that work? Anybody else? A comment or question? One's going twice. Okay, we'll move on then. Shakyamuni as the model for all bodhisattvas. So, Shakyamuni is the historical Buddha, and of course in Mahayana Buddhism and the bodhisattva worldview, there are many, many, many Buddhas as well as many, many bodhisattvas, but

[34:11]

Shakyamuni was the historical Buddha in our Buddha field, in our world system, and who lived, they keep changing the dates of when he lived. Sometime in the 400s BC, it's what's thought now. But, you know, it's interesting that mostly the story about him is the story of his when he was a bodhisattva, before he became the Buddha. I mean, there are lots of stories. You know, he spent 40-some years teaching. It's very different from the Christian story. And Jesus was, what, a few years. But mostly they talk about his, most of the stories about Shakyamuni are as a bodhisattva, before he became the Buddha. for all bodhisattvas, the issues that Shakyamuni raises are critical.

[35:17]

The awakening to suffering, so the story about Shakyamuni, and as I say in the book, this story is subject to historical question. There are other stories almost equally old about him, about his home leaving that are very different, but at any rate, one story that's been told mostly in the West is that he was raised in this very protected kind of way, was not even aware of sickness, old age, and death, it seems, until he was 29, and then suddenly realized suffering. I think we could see this kind of symbolically or archetypally, if you will, as kind of realization that does happen sometimes at that age. It can happen a year earlier, or it can happen later, that some deep visceral realization of the reality of suffering in the world, in our own lives, or sometimes we can see it in the lives of others.

[36:26]

And this was a big problem for him. And he had this choice. So this issue of You know, do you continue living this life of material relative well-being? You know, most Americans are privileged. Even as we're losing our middle class, we're still relatively privileged compared to other people in the world. How do we live? Do we live for material well-being, or do we live for spiritual reality, and to help relieve suffering, and to help live a clear, awakened life? So that basic choice, I think, is one of the key things represented by Shakyamuni, and it led to his home-leaving, and again, there are various versions of that, but home-leaver is a designation for all

[37:29]

buddhist monks but in some sense uh... you know uh... if you're actually my teacher teacher said that if america when either mokpo a people and for all of us with the choice to take on virtual practice is one that involved uh... some uh... giving up something even if it's just giving up saturday morning to listen to stories about what he thought that uh... how do we uh... take on some choice to direct our life towards spiritual practice. Shakyamuni represents that in a very significant way. And then, what do we do? How do we do that? And Shakyamuni also represents, as a model for all Bodhisattvas and for all the other Bodhisattva archetypes, this kind of middle way is to not the middle way between severe asceticism, which he tried, that was the practice in India at that time.

[38:38]

So he fasted and did these severe ascetic practices that were what was available then, and then found a middle way beyond that. So the idea of the middle way works in a lot of different forms in Buddhism. And then finally he awakened. And then just the decision to teach, share his experience with others, is also kind of common to all Bodhisattvas. So in many ways, Dakyamuni is kind of the model for all the Bodhisattvas. So we can see that in terms of his, you know, in terms of his, in terms of how he represents practices and particular schools and sutras.

[39:43]

You know, he's the Bodhisattva of all, I mean, he's the Buddha of all sutras. Of course, there are schools that that follow other Buddhas, particularly in Vajrayana and Pure Land, but he's present in all of those in terms of practices. Great effort, you know, so when we think of effort and energy and enthusiasm, Shakyamuni represents that in terms of his home leaving, in terms of his supposedly six years of and practice, and meditation also. He was the master of meditation, and also wisdom, and then the wisdom of sharing that. I'll also say skillful means that part of what he did through his teaching career as the Buddha was to try different teachings.

[40:47]

So part of the challenge of understanding all of the range of all the different schools and sutras and so forth is that, you know, one story about his awakening is that he didn't, first he thought that nobody would understand what he was, you know, what he had experienced, and that he couldn't possibly, nobody would, there was no point in him continuing to teach. And in fact, there, you know, we'll talk about this next week, part of the vows of Samantabhadra particularly, this comes across in the Flower Ornament Sutra particularly, is that he was just going to enter nirvana, there was no reason for him to stay in the world anymore, and part of the vows of Samantabhadra are to ask Buddhas to teach, not enter into nirvana. So he finally did, and then tried various teachings, and the systems of classification of the different Chinese schools are based on

[41:53]

trying to understand all of the different ways in which he used skillful means to teach. In many ways, Shakyamuni is the model for all Bodhisattvas. say more about him and more about Bodhisattvas in general. You know, the exemplars I mentioned in the book, and we could think of many more, and that's probably what I want to encourage you towards, are people who gave up something for the sake of spiritual practice. So I mentioned Muhammad Ali. which may be strange to some people, but for the sake of his Muslim beliefs, even though he didn't mean to renounce his crown, his championship as heavyweight champion of the world, he ended up saying he wasn't going to go fight in Vietnam, and for that

[43:08]

uh... he was going to sacrifice everything and uh... and go to jail and uh... so you know it's that kind of uh... renunciation uh... so shakimuni according to the story uh... was a prince and would have become the king of his small kingdom uh... but uh... he just gave that up to go and follow spiritual pursuits so i think there are lots of people and you know one of the things is that Talking about these exemplars, I'm talking about famous culture figures, but in Asia usually bodhisattvas are associated not with great famous celebrities, but with ordinary common people. And I think in many ways we could think of people in our own lives who have given up some position of power or fame or wealth or whatever in order to spiritual practice or to be helpful in the world.

[44:10]

And that's the energy that Shakyamuni represents also. So, again, I want to open this up to discussion about Shakyamuni or anything about Bodhisattvas up to this point. So, anyone have comments, questions, any aspect of this idea of the Bodhisattva or of Shakyamuni as a Bodhisattva? what particularly he represents about what bodhisattvas are. Respond to your comments and questions, thoughts about all of this. So Julia, you have your hand up. Yes, thank you, Taigan. As you spoke about Shakyamuni, I'm a very limited Buddhist in terms of my real understanding of the history.

[45:17]

So I really appreciate the way in which you're setting this context. And I'm particularly struck by this juxtaposition of his being a great exemplar of the Middle Way and of great effort. Because that strikes me as being one of the fundamental values of human life, to hit that balance where we're always really giving for everything we can, and at the same time maintaining a profound balance and equilibrium that really is in service to everything and everyone. And I just would be interested to just know more about how you work with that paradox. So could you, excuse me, my battery is low on this phone. I'm going to have to switch to a handheld phone. Could you hold on just a second? And then I want to ask you to say what you see as the paradox again.

[46:18]

But hold on just a second. Can you hear me? Yes. OK. Yeah. So you're talking about giving up power, or what is it that you see as the paradox about this? Well, I see the paradox of the idea of, I think in our culture particularly, the middle way as not necessarily being related to effort. I think that juxtaposition of great effort and maintaining an equilibrium in my own life, I've experienced, and I frequently will make great effort and in the way that actually is hard for me and for other people. And I really appreciate how this is a model for that, that fullness of effort without efforting in a way that interferes with living a really well balanced and full life, not

[47:29]

not efforting in a direction that overexpresses my own ambition, for example. Right, right. Yeah, I think the whole idea of the middle way has a lot to do with balance. Can you hear me OK? Is this phone working? Yes, it's working well. Good. So yeah, the middle way has to do with balance. And I think balance is a key issue for a lot of this. So, you know, and that does relate to effort a lot. So, you know, one of the balances in terms of different practices is the balance of effort or energy or enthusiasm with patients. They're very much related. So how do we, if we push ourselves too hard, we can get burnt out.

[48:30]

If we try and take on too much, we get burnt out. If we take it too easy, then that doesn't work either. There's a kind of balance. So in practice, assuming this Bodhisattva practice that we're all doing, how to actually find each of us, each of us has our own balance point too, and it's changing. So this is the creative aspect of Bodhisattva practice. I think Bodhisattva practice is very much about creativity. And creativity, so I encourage my students that Zazen supports all of the formal creative activities in your life and vice versa, you know, creative activities. formally like, you know, music or painting or writing, but also creative activities like gardening or cooking or parenting or relationships. But just practice itself, thought in itself, and our everyday practice itself is a creative act.

[49:35]

How do we find balance, not pushing ourselves so hard that we get exhausted and burnt out, at the same time not taking it too easy that we're not being helpful and not being energized. So, the balance in Zazen of being relaxed, which is part of the practice, as opposed to being too relaxed and falling asleep. So, effort It has to be balanced with patience, and patience is, as a practice, is a very dynamic practice. It's not passive. Patience is about, so partly talking about effort I think involves talking about patience as a practice. Patience is a dynamic practice of being attentive. It may look like just sitting and doing nothing.

[50:39]

Often when there's some problem and we don't know what to do, The best thing is to not do anything. But how can we do that in a way where we're paying attention? If somebody, for example, if we have a friend who's having some problem, rather than trying to fix things and intervene and interfere, the best thing may be just to watch and to see and to wait for it, to be attentive and wait for a time when we can respond in a way that might allow the other person to see some other way of being. So, this middle way or this balancing is very important and it's not easy. It requires attention and being open to shifting how we do things. I don't know if that's helpful to the question you're asking. Yes, very much.

[51:40]

Thank you so much. I particularly enjoyed your your emphasis on the creative activity of balance. Thank you. Yeah, I think, you know, part of Bodhisattva practice is that it is creative. And how we see these different Bodhisattva figures is to see them creatively in our own lives and in our own culture and in our own world. And, you know, I think for each person listening in now, You may find, as I was saying, different bodhisattvas that appeal to you, but also how you respond to them and express them may be different and creative. So there's another hand. There was another hand. I lost it now. Leila, are you there? Yes, Leila. Leila, hi. Hi, this is Leila. Can you hear me? Yes, I can. You're in Colorado. I am.

[52:40]

At the moment I'm in Torrey because I'm going to be entering the Shushan tomorrow with Moshe Sensei. Thank you so much for your teaching this morning. You're really expanding my thinking about so many things at once, but here's one. With the traditional Buddha exemplars, you're talking about it, that sense of loss and of recognizing death. was my own experience. My mother's death in the early 1980s was actually what brought me into the Dharma originally. So that seems like such a human being experience for people altogether. It's part of a maturation, chronologically, but it's also so much that sense of loss. And what I'm kind of wondering about in listening to you, it's quite good. is that you had that image of the Bodhisattvas underground coming to the surface.

[53:41]

I think that's just, I had not heard that before. But here's the thing that's linking up for me is that I heard Paul Hawkins say recently, you know, his book on natural capitalism and so forth. He said, what if climate change is not happening to us, but for us as a way to wake us up? So I'm wondering about the sort of more transpersonal awakening that could possibly be happening in terms of the loss of animal and plant species, the rivers, the integrity of the ocean, and really kind of the loss of our elemental world. And wondering for myself as an environmental activist, how I could be more awake to the opening on that level when I'm relating to people with climate change issues or climate disruption and species loss? Well, I'm tempted to just shift the whole course to just talking about that.

[54:47]

I've been teaching about that a lot from Dogen's Landscape Sutra or Mountains and Water Sutra. And I think it's the most important question for us now. But yeah, you know, one, One, I think it's a kind of Bodhisattvic attitude, is to see, you know, we say dharmakirti are boundless, I'm bound to enter them, to see each situation as an opportunity. Part of the point of, well, this is a particularly Soto Zen teaching, but also Huayen teaching that's related to Samantabhadra next week, is to see the interrelationship of the universal and the particular, and it's a basic idea in Bodhisattva dynamics that we each are connected to the whole. And this is another way of talking about what you were just saying, that universal liberation is also about us, and that our particular grief and suffering is transpersonal, is universal, and one of the things that

[55:57]

uh... you know about climate damage which is happening or all around us in lots of ways uh... i don't know specifically in utah but anyway that that it's just it just happened all over the world uh... and of course there are people who don't want to see it and that's not just the the function of uh... uh... You know, the fossil fuel company owners who put millions of dollars into misinformation, but it's also that we don't want to face that because it's so painful. So, you know, you were talking about your mom dying, and I think a lot of people come to practice based on personal loss. But we're all, there's this underlying anxiety, this underlying, denial. One of my mentors is Joanna Macy, who talks about this a lot. So this is how we are connected to the world.

[57:02]

And so part of Bodhisattva awareness is to see this wider sense, at the same time see how it applies to the work and practice that we each are doing locally. So it's not You know, and something that I need to, that I keep preaching to myself and to everybody else I talk to is that it's not hopeless, and that there are things we can do, and that even though science tells us that things are going to be very bad, that there are things that we can do that will make a difference. So, anyway, this is just my response to what you were just saying, and it's a long discussion. but it's very much part of the Bodhisattva idea to see how to be responsive to one's own, to all of the suffering and possibilities in oneself and in the world, and they're not really separate.

[58:09]

I don't know if that's responsive, Lila. Yes, thank you so much, Tony. Okay, well I, you know, really appreciate hearing from all of you, but I will move on now to Manjushri and hopefully we'll have time for more discussion. Manjushri is the Bodhisattva of wisdom and insight and very, very important Bodhisattva. And so many things to say about Manjushri. Manjushri is, so first of all, wisdom, I mentioned this before, Manjushri represents, well Manjushri is kind of the teacher of all Bodhisattvas, just like Shakyamuni represents a kind of model for all Bodhisattvas. Manjushri is formally considered the teacher of all Bodhisattvas. Manjushri is the entry for all Bodhisattva teaching because Manjushri is the Bodhisattva of emptiness.

[59:17]

Many of us started our first, the first teaching we heard was the Heart Sutra about form is emptiness and emptiness is form. And so, emptiness is another way to talk about wisdom in the Mahayana. Emptiness is, of course, not nothingness. Emptiness is the reality that there is nothing that exists in and of itself. that everything is interconnected. So there's lots of ways of talking about it. There are lots of synonyms. For emptiness, I've been writing about it and talking about it as suchness, which is a more positive way of talking about it. But just the reality of things as it is, is the teaching of wisdom. And this is what Manjushri specializes in. It's not wisdom as knowledge. So we'll talk about knowledge more when we get to Samantabhadra next week. but it's not not knowing about things. It's not this discriminative knowledge, which can be useful and can be used by bodhisattvas, but this is more like seeing what's important right now.

[60:25]

So, Manjushri sits in the middle, traditionally, of all meditation halls. I don't know if you have a Manjushri figure in the middle of your zendo, Diane, but, uh, Traditionally in Asia, there's Manjushri, in Narasimha, there's a Manjushri figure sitting in front of Shakyamuni, or sitting in the Zendo, as opposed to the Buddha hall. We do, we have Manjushri. Okay, yeah. So Manjushri is, so Manjushri's connected with wisdom, he's also connected with ethics, because he is the, kind of the monastic bodhisattva. He's connected with meditation also, and a particular kind of meditation. He is the bodhisattva who cuts through delusions, so sometimes he carries a sword. Not always, but he also is kind of fearless. Sometimes he sits on a lion. Sometimes he carries a teaching scepter because he also speaks, he teaches, he uses words to cut through the way in which we're caught by language, the way in which we divide things into

[61:38]

and sees self as separate from other, the way in which we see things as objects as opposed to connected. So, again, this insight of Manjushri is about this, this insider wisdom is about seeing what's important right now. So, Suzuki Roshi, my teacher's teacher, used to say, what's the most important thing? issues inside kind of like that it's what's important and i [...] think it really thick what are what are some of the most important because people get stuff that they have to pick one uh... but uh... you know what what is your favorite movie well you know i've got to say what you put your five favorite movies because people have trouble picking one although i know i know my favorite but anyway uh... the the uh... insight that Manjushri is not about, it's not a function of reading lots of books or listening to lots of dharma talks or studying a lot.

[62:45]

It's like immediate. It's right now, seeing what's important, seeing what's going on. So Manjushri is often depicted as very youthful. So I mentioned Hans Christian Andersen's story about the emperor's new clothes. It's the kid who can speak truth to power, who can say, the emperor's got no clothes. That's Manjushri. It's this very elemental, immediate knowledge, immediate insight that is the wisdom of Manjushri. Everything is empty. Everything is just as it is, just this. Everything is just this suchness. There's nothing, so it's not about seeing separate things, and Manjushri sees that we are divided up, that our usual way of seeing the world Our usual stories about who we are and what the world is, is about lots of separate little things. So our usual way of thinking is caught by discriminative consciousness.

[63:47]

We see things in terms of subject and object, and it kills the world. We see things as separate objects instead of as deeply interconnected, and actually nothing is separate from everything else. So Manjushri is about dependent, co-arising. So this also gets into this issue of ethics and morality that Manjushri represents that because he's, and we can see him representing that because he's the monastic bodhisattva. Often in Japan, in Zen Buddhism Japan, he sits in the middle of meditation Hall, and he sits on a kind of sleeping lion, but he's depicted as a shaved-head monk, so he's kind of the monk that he's thought to be. So in that sense, he represents ethics, he represents morality, he represents, you know, how do we respond ethically? How do we respond in terms of the presets? So there's a very particular strong flavor to what Montgomery represents.

[64:57]

So, you know, the question of climate, climate damage that Lila brought up is, you know, very relevant to Manjushri. How do you, and all ethical questions. So, in addition to mentioning climate damage, I, you know, since I was, since I'm ethically Jewish, I'll mention my horror at the atrocities of the Israeli government. I'll just, I just have to say that if I talk about Manjushri, what's happening in Gaza. So all of this is about Manjushri as the Bodhisattva of Wisdom. And, again, wisdom is balanced. So balance is so important, as I was saying. Wisdom is balanced by compassion amongst Bodhisattvas. So one of the things to look at is to see how these Bodhisattvas are, represent, how they fit together. There's a lot of overlap between them, but Manjushri often is depicted on altars.

[66:05]

So, Michael, you were asking about venerating these Bodhisattvas as these kind of external figures, but part of that is to see how they're depicted, and on altars in temples in Asia, Often it's Shakyamuni in the middle. On one side is Manjushri, on the other side is the Valakiteshvara. So there's this balance between Manjushri representing this fierce insight of this wisdom and this fierce ethical persistence, and on the other side, the kindness and gentleness that we'll talk about next week of Kanana, of Valakiteshvara. Or sometimes it's the balance of Mokpo Labi Manjushri on one side of the Buddha, and Samantabhadra, a Fugen in Japanese, who we'll talk about next week also, who represents a different kind of, we could say, compassion. So all three of the figures we're talking about next week are three different flavors of what we might call compassion.

[67:11]

So there's different kinds of balancing. how they fit together is an important part of seeing what the Bodhisattvas are and what they have to teach us. So in terms of Manjushri and what Manjushri represents in terms of the background of Buddhism, I've already mentioned Manjushri's kind of iconography and how that represents aspects of the teaching. He sometimes carries a sword to cut through delusion. He sits on a lion, representing his kind of fierceness. He's depicted youthfully because his wisdom is not the wisdom of long learning and knowledge, but this kind of youthful insight, this kind of immediacy of the wisdom of 16-year-olds or 18-year-olds.

[68:17]

Also, sometimes he carries a scroll. And that's about what aspects of the traditional teachings he represents. He carries the Prajnaparamita scrolls. So, excuse me, prajna or wisdom, the perfection of wisdom teachings are particularly associated with Manjushri. So, of course, the Prajnaparamita is the perfection of wisdom, and so that but be associated with Manjushri. But he's also prominently included in many other sutras. Again, these are not so cut and dry. He's in the Flower Ornament Sutra, which we'll talk about more in terms of Samantabhadra, who's the major bodhisattva of that sutra. He's also in the Vimalakirti Sutra prominently, because that sutra also deals with wisdom. But anyway, we can see him as a representative of that particular body, that particular

[69:19]

text. He also, in terms of schools, in terms of the branches of Buddhism, one division within Indian Mahayana, just as a kind of scholarly background here, Indian Mahayana Buddhism that came to China had two main branches. The first is called Madhyamaka, which goes back to Nagarjuna and that represents the middle way, and that was more the teaching of emptiness. So that's associated with Manjushri. The other we'll come to actually more week after next with Maitreya, and that's the Yogacara branch, which is more the psychological teaching, and which talks about emptiness more positively in terms of suchness. in relativity. But anyway, so Manjushri represents the Madhyamaka teachings.

[70:20]

He's also very, of course, very important in Chan or Zen, as the monastic monk, as the, you know, in the way that's Zen. That includes a lot, all of these bodhisattvas actually, pretty much, but Manjushri is very important in Zen. He also represents the precept schools because of his affiliation with the monastic and with ethics. Other things about Manjushri, well there's a very rich folklore about Manjushri, so I'll just say a little bit about that and then I want to have more discussion. So even though Manjushri is this kind of youthful, fierce figure who represents this kind of immediate insight into reality of things, into emptiness, into interconnectedness, into the interrelatedness or relativity of things.

[71:23]

He also is particularly known for appearing as a homeless person in the folklore. And many of these major Bodhisattva figures have Sacred sites that are that are especially affiliated with them for Manjushri. It's Mount Wutai in northern China And you know his traditionally There are also sites in in Tibet and Japan and other places in Asia, but Manjushri was particularly associated with the peoples of northern China and actually the the various tribes that came in from north of China, also very much fond of Manjushri. The Manchus who came in later were named after Manjushri. But there are many, many stories of Manjushri appearing to pilgrims who went to Mount Wutai as a homeless vagabond or beggar who actually then served as a guide.

[72:26]

And so there are various colorful stories about Manjushri appearing. as a homeless person. And so one of the aspects of Manjushri is that if you see a homeless person, you don't know it might be Manjushri. There's more to say about Manjushri, but at this point I will pause and I imagine there might be comments or responses to some of what I've said, and I'd like to open it up for further discussion and questions and comments. I just wanted to return for a moment to the question about climate disaster, climate change, and also what's happening in Israel and in Gaza right now. We had a call with a group of Israelis over the weekend to talk about these are spiritual practitioners in Israel who are, you know, very, I don't know what to say, certainly non-Zionist Israelis and ones who are kind of did their time in the army but then have also spent time in India and are, you know, feel extremely both afraid and have

[73:49]

an incredible amount of empathy for the Palestinians, at the same time understanding that the way the Palestinians respond at times is, you know, untenable and kind of impossible for Israel. But Israel's response is proportionally just seems completely out of sync with, you know, a skillful response. And I just really appreciated both in terms of climate change and in terms of the Palestinian-Israeli issue, as well as other conflicts around the world, your encouragement to remain present and also to find your particular capacity to act in an ethical manner. And it sounds like you've spent quite a lot of time of late, you know, well, always that's been a part of your practice. Would you mind just saying a little bit more about ethical action in relationship to Manjushri? Yeah. Well, you know, I think that we could talk about ethical action in relationship to each of these Bodhisattvas, and I think of Samantabhadra, who we'll talk about more next week, as the kind of activist Bodhisattva.

[75:05]

Okay. And I will come back to Manjushri, but just to say that there are various modes of ethical and societal response that the different bodhisattvas represent. So, you know, we can talk about that as we talk about them. And I'm glad that you're, you know, open to talking about that. I think, you know, we have to, you know, first of all, just in terms of thinking about bodhisattvas, we have to think about how we, you know, practice on our own cushions and take care of our own life and the people around us and so forth in our own sanghas, but also, clearly, the bodhisattva idea is about how do we respond to the whole world and all beings. So, yeah, we need to think about what's going on in the world and pay attention to that.

[76:12]

And I have been a social activist and activists, social justice activists for, you know, since before I came to Buddhism even. But yeah, so there's different modes for the different bodhisattvas, and I think that's useful because I don't think there's one right way to respond. One of the problems for, I think a lot of activists would benefit from Buddhist practice and bodhisattva practice, that When I was anti-Vietnam War activist in the 60s, there was a lot of self-righteousness around activism, and that can be as much of a problem as anything. And, you know, when we look around at all kinds of injustice in the world, it's very easy to get self-righteous and angry, and that's not helpful.

[77:13]

That's one of the first things I would say. So there are different modes for responding to social issues that Avalokiteshvara represents, that Samantabhadra represents, that Jizo represents, we'll talk about those next week. Also Maitreya and to some extent the Malakirti. So with your invitation I'll touch on those in the next two weeks. For Manjushri it's, you know, this quality of ethical conduct in the precepts is what he, what this Bodhisattva represents. And also speaking truth to power, I think. And that's not, again, there's overlap, so that's part of some of the other Bodhisattvas too, but this cutting through to what's That's true. So I spoke somewhat abruptly.

[78:16]

Obviously, the situation in the Middle East is really complicated, and there's suffering on all sides. And so I spoke harshly about Israeli activity and gossip. But of course, it's difficult on all sides. But the Manjushri energy is about in some sense speaking, again speaking truth to power, and clearly the power in the situation in Gaza is all on one side. And what to do is not easy. That's why the practice of patience is so important. And part of the practice, so that's in terms of Manjushri sitting in the middle of the meditation hall and Being patient is part of that, too, part of the practice of, you know, our Zazen is about learning patience. You pay attention, but then, you know, how do, we don't often, I think, you know, there's a kind of a Western approach to generosity that we have to do something, we have to fix this.

[79:31]

And unfortunately, I think the current American response I don't mean courage in terms of, you know, this year, this month. I mean, in our culture for a while, you know, we tend to look for military response rather than trying to talk and work out things. And I'm, you know, glad that carriers are trying to find some way towards diplomacy. So, I don't know. How do we find a balance you know, in a very difficult situation and the practice of patience is critical and I don't have the answers, I have to say. Well, there was one thing that we spoke about in this particular group of people. They have a shared view but obviously they're living in a culture in which many views, you know, many views are going on and

[80:35]

the military strength and, you know, just in certainly the legacy of the Second World War for the Israeli Jews, which is that they're not going to be, you know, the Arab pressure on the Israeli state not to exist, and then the sense that they are not going to allow themselves to be treated that way again. But what I talked to the people about, because I didn't have that much time, was the importance of really knowing your ethical perspective. like to receive the views of others and then to look into your practice for what is really true from your point of view and then how do you act from that view because the views are so different as you're saying they're so complicated but if they really take time to look at what do they really think and believe about what's happening. So I thought perhaps Manjushri might with that clear seeing and that sense of seeing very powerfully what is that there's a ground to take action from when you actually really understand yourself and what your ethical perspective actually is, if that makes sense.

[81:40]

Yes, I totally agree with what you just said. Okay. Okay. Other comments? Other questions or comments from anyone else? Thank you for that, Diane. Yeah, I'd just like to follow up a little bit on the Mambushiri thing. Ethical issues and and their application to our life has always been something of interest to me. And Robert Aiken has a book called The Mind of Clover, in which he suggests, and I think this would be in line with the conjuciary approach, that when you have an ethical decision to make, you need to look at what is the sort of Bodhiyana teaching or the, I suppose in Manjushri terminology, you know, what is the emptiness teaching, which is that everything's impermanent and we're all connected, although the all-connected may tend more towards the Yogacara school.

[82:51]

And when you reference that when you're asking what the precepts demand in any particular situation, So always coming from your...the fact that nothing is separate from you, but that's kind of a nesting place for all of the precepts. And is that... Sorry, go ahead. No, I just said we're all interrelated. Yes, absolutely. Yes, go ahead. And from that point, you can then ask what each of the 16 precepts requires, but that's the load star. Is that sort of a manjushri analysis of the precepts? Yeah, that fits, yes. Okay, thank you. Yes, good. Other questions or comments from others here? Please feel free.

[83:51]

Okay, Jennifer, please go ahead. Okay. Hello. Hi, Jennifer. Hi. What was coming up for me? The question that was on my mind was in really trying to capture the essence or an understanding of these different bodhisattvas, and you had mentioned seeing them within ourselves or within people we practice with or in the world around us. I'm curious if you have any practical or application, I guess, suggestions on how to call upon these things or the process of going inward and pulling out these traits or qualities within the self as part of practice. Ah, excellent question. Well, you know, in terms of Manjushri, to look at Well, to look at how we see what's important.

[84:59]

I mean, I think that's, to look at how, you know, in Zazen you could do it in your life. To look at our, to look at the quality of attention. Part of Manjushri is paying attention and to see what comes up. And so, to be aware when insight arises. So, you know, one of the aspects of Manjushri that I can mention is something that the Sixth Ancestor talks about. He talks in the Platform Sutra, the oneness of meditation and wisdom. That's very relevant to Manjushri, that in our sitting, in our samadhi, in our concentration, insights arise. And maybe that's familiar to you. Maybe you've had that experience. That's a manjushri kind of experience. So to see that quality, and not to try and hold on to that, because manjushri doesn't hold on to things.

[86:00]

Manjushri sees the emptiness of the insights too. But to see that quality, if that's something that is particularly important or rich in your practice, that's a kind of manjushri aspect to your practice. And as we look at the different Bodhisattvas, you will see aspects of, you know, more than one of them in your own practice. But also as you become aware of that as an aspect of Manjushri, for example, then, you know, you can be more sensitive to that aspect of your own practice. or even appreciate it more. The other thing which I did not mention so much about Manjushri is that Manjushri is particularly involved in language. And I mentioned as exemplars of Manjushri because of that, writers who work with language, I mentioned in the book, James Joyce and Gertrude Stein, mentioned Bob Dylan playing with language.

[87:11]

So, you know, those of you who like to work with language, And particularly, that's a Manjushri kind of activity. And again, Manjushri in the koans and in the sutras where he appears, it uses language to show how language can be a trap. But he talks about it. So those are aspects of Manjushri. And with each of the different bodhisattvas, there are different qualities that you can look at and see as particular, you know, ways in which that Bodhisattva is present. Does that help? Absolutely. It is very helpful and something I'm actually really excited about is in learning about the different Bodhisattvas is playing with identifying it in my practice and people I interact with.

[88:13]

different significant figures I encounter in my life and to kind of reinforce my learning process and inquiry. So, thank you so much. Good. Well, that's what we're doing here. So, I see it's past 1130, but I'm happy to keep talking. Lisa has her hand up. I don't know if, Diane, if you want to let people know where we're at now. Yeah, I think it's important. I would love for you to get to interact with a few more people. So 1030 is our official end time. So if you need to leave the call now, thank you very much for being on the call. And if you would like to stay for a few more minutes for a couple more questions, please do. So bye if you're going and hang on if you're staying. So Lisa, go ahead, please. Hi Lisa. Hi, thank you. I've so enjoyed this call. One thing that just really struck me was your description of Manjushri appearing as a homeless person, and so what it made me feel is that this these practices are internal practices, but that external practice of recognizing others as bodhisattvas feels incredibly powerful too, and that I don't know who I'm interacting with, and like all of my own judgments and projections that get put on others, but actually the practice of seeing every homeless person, but also every person that I interact with as a bodhisattva also has a really, that really resonated with me as a really powerful

[89:43]

practice for actually the embodiment of the Bodhisattva ideal as also in that interpersonal space. So I just wanted to comment on that. Yes, it's very important. Maybe I should have said more about that, that Bodhisattvas see others as Bodhisattvas. That's part of the deal. And the idea of Sangha also is very important to the Bodhisattva. Because if we see interconnectedness and we see that our work is working in the world, then of course, Uh, working with others means that community is important. The song is important. Uh huh. Uh huh. That's my little girl in the background. We can hear your baby. One of the Bodhisattvas. Yeah, I interact with lots of Bodhisattvas. True. Great. Thank you very much. You're welcome. Thank you, Lisa. Tish and Mark are both on the line, so I'd like to give each of them an opportunity to ask a question. Tish, anything coming up for you that you'd like to share?

[90:47]

Tish just moved from Salt Lake City to Kansas. Oh, great. So... Um, can you hear me? Yes, I can. Yeah, we can hear you. I don't really have anything coming up for me right now. I just find that I have a really strong appreciation for all of your... learning that you have about these various figures and understanding the history of where they come from and what they represent. I'm only familiar with about, you know, three or four of them, maybe, and just really am enjoying understanding more about each figure. Great. Good. So, next week we'll do three more. Very interesting. Next week is There's a lot of material next week. But Samanta Bhadra is very complicated and interesting. Avalokiteshvara is wonderful. Jizo is fascinating, too. So yeah, there's a lot more to talk about. Great. I'm looking forward to it.

[91:50]

Great. And then we have Mark, who's our Cajun friend. He's down in New Orleans. Mark, good morning. Do you have anything you want to say or add or question you might have? Yeah. I'm curious about how Bodhichitta relates to the process of the archetypes. And is the Bodhichitta, is it a constantly evolving, ever-present concept, or is it like a one-time thing? Well, there's different understandings of that. Bodhicitta, and you know, there's a different way that's seen in Tibetan Buddhism, where there's a particular cultivation and practices that are done around that. But basically, you know, so there's different understandings, first of all. But basically, Bodhicitta is, in some sense, whatever brought you to practice. And in some sense, it includes all of awakening, but it can develop and open and flower.

[92:54]

And so that so practice and awakening is kind of endless. And as we meet new situations, new possibilities and new challenges, it becomes fresh. So that's beginner's mind in a sense is that our practice is always fresh. So, yeah, Bodhicitta is a living, vital thing. It's not a one-time thing. So, Dogen likes to talk about Buddha going beyond Buddha, that it's not that Buddha awakens once and that's it. It's an ongoing, it's a process of ongoing awakening. So, yeah, I think Bodhicitta is the same, but Bodhicitta is that kernel of concern or caring about the quality of our experience and the quality of our awareness and the quality of our activity and of the world. So, it's very important. Thank you, Mark.

[93:58]

We've been working really hard, and Tori, getting ready for session, and we miss you. We wish you were here. Yes. Thank you. Great to hear your voice. So, that looks like everybody, Tygan. I think we're probably good for today. Great. Great. Well, I'll stay on the line. Actually, so are we signed off now or how are we? Not yet. So we're just going to say goodbye to all the people who've joined the call and then you and I and Julie will meet in the green room for just a few minutes to debrief. So thank you everybody. As Taigan mentioned, you know, just that moment, the Bodhisattva giving something up in order to access or to realize your spiritual nature. So thank you so much for being here this morning and we'll see you next week.

[94:44]

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