I see we lost a couple research partners. You know, it's natural that in a group of any size, there's always a few people who have to have whatever schedule they have. But I always get, I always feel the presence of people. When it's gone, I really feel. I always feel the presence of people. And when they're gone, it's like, whoops. So I would like to hear from my research partners on how your groups were yesterday. Yes. In our group, not everybody was superior, that there is a difference between who am I and what am I. Some thought there is only a semantic difference.

[01:23]

In our group, it was not clear for everyone what the difference was between who I am and what I am. Some still have a linguistic difference he kept one person said who am I defines my roles the group in a group or in a family or their relationship to friends and colleagues and bottom I relates to some substance carrying me through all the changes of life and circumstances with one person. I did not define myself with the roles that you play in groups, in family or even in a group of friends.

[02:27]

In summary, throughout all the the positions of the members of the group whom I was found as focused, dense, tighter, concrete, but with some hardness. And... Agility, you mean? Yes, agility. And that's a separation between the who and how the who functions. It feels shallow or hollow. and it is time related and comes somehow out of the past.

[03:32]

Also das Wer bin ich wurde so in Summe als fokussiert, dicht, eng, konkret, etwas steif beschrieben. and that there is a differentiation between the who and how this who works, that it feels light and hollow, and that it has a temporal basis and comes from the past. The word emai is more allowing that things come forward somehow. There is more choice. It feels warmer. What is warmer than who? And there is more mutuality. What am I allows things to appear more and arise.

[04:40]

It allows more choice. It feels warmer. allows for more versatility. One person said it's exciting, the word MI is exciting because it opens to the strange possibility that there could be not anybody behind this. Any person would decide this is exciting because it opens up the possibility that there is no one behind it at all. it feels like a curtain going up. One person mentioned that we might be often in some state related to what I am in daily life, but we are not aware of it, and when we ask for it, we recover it.

[05:46]

His person has noticed that we may live more often on a daily basis. We are in this what am I state, which is part of it, but we do not notice it and only then realize it when we ask the question. It leads to listen to changing feelings. it leads to a larger space, it feels extending, widens up, and there's a loosing of borders without feeling of becoming bigger. Es fühlt sich sich ausdehnend an, es ist ein weiterer Raum fühlbar, und Es wirkt irgendwie grenzenlos ein, dass man sich selbst vergrößert fühlt.

[06:55]

It feels sometimes intense, but more like a field and not so focused. Es fühlt sich manchmal intensiv an, aber eher wie ein Feld und nicht so fokussiert. And some people feel it, feel such a feeling throughout daily life too. I want to add an experience that I made. when I try to be aware of breath in daily life. There is a shift when I forgot about being aware the breath.

[08:02]

When I remember it and come back to it again and be aware again of the breath. And this shift compares to the shift that comes when we change from the who am I to the what am I. This is somehow related. I feel that a comparable change occurs when I have forgotten to observe the breath and I remember again and observe the breath again, what it feels like afterwards. This is a similar change as when I go from the who am I to what am I. And in our group, we spent a lot of time discussing about the topic which was brought up in the second session before.

[09:04]

It was Nolan's question and your answer. Some people were fooled. Some people cared, some people didn't care. Yeah. But that didn't... Yeah, no, just kidding. Okay. You know, what we're doing here, looking at this what and who, is a one-way or a version of exploring what is self, the most basic of, among a few, Buddhist practices. Trying to locate, particularly in meditation practice, a self, a graspable self. So we're coming at it from this direction.

[10:23]

And I'd hoped actually for us all to gather together last night before dinner, but all the groups broke up before I came downstairs. I'm suffering a little feeling of loss, but you know, who's next? Yes. The first thing that came up when I asked myself what the world is, someone said he felt very sad. This what brings us more into our body. So first we started asking, what is the world? And one person said it makes him sad, this what is the world. It kind of transports him into a more feeling world. Ja, und wenn wir uns fragen, wer bist du eigentlich, wann gehen wir über?

[11:28]

Und wenn wir da erfahren, dass er oder sie so heiß, so alt ist, die Beruf hat, then we found out that if you ask who are you like who are you opposite of me and you ask what's your name how old are you what you're doing what's your job basically it is just an accumulation of information it's not really the What is about that person? So when I ask myself, what is this person? I really do have to get involved with what that person is, what defines her and what kind of moves her and so on.

[12:32]

And one woman said she immediately had an image coming along with what and who. And what was kind of a big space and who was much more littler space. Close up. Yep. Yes, if you are in the question of who you are or if you ask why at all, then you often come into these experiences. Why do I feel bad now? Because. And then we found out that when you first have the bass, And this question of what goes with why is easier.

[13:43]

You find answers there. For example, that you don't ask who is sick, but that you ask what is sick. So then there's a difference in asking what and why. So if you ask why, then you get a series of becauses as answers. But if you ask what, and then after the what you ask why questions, it gets much more interesting or broader. And you could ask if somebody's sick, you don't ask who's sick or why are you sick, but you can ask what is sick, and then you might just find out it's the tonsils or something like that. Mm-hmm. It's a little shorter than... Yeah.

[15:00]

There's a koan I was thinking about. Someone's sick and they say... There's one who is not sick. And does the one who's not sick take care of you? And the teacher answers, no, I take care of the one who's not sick. Yeah, okay. Someone else? Yes. The answers that we have found on who I am or what I am, I find in the following answers that have been given here, and also in the approaches. So the answers in what am I and who am I, I can see already in some tendencies in what we've done. Wir haben herausgefunden, auf die Frage, wer bin ich, dass das zeitlich begrenzt ist.

[16:09]

Ich finde mich in unterschiedlichen Situationen, in unterschiedlichen Kontexten, aber auch in unterschiedlichen Zeitraum wieder als... So if you ask who, it's something more defined, it's something more... Temporal and temporary. And you can define yourself. Yes, I'm somebody in a group. I'm a mother. I'm a working person. I'm a bus driver and so on. And when I ask myself the question, what am I, it is limited to the fields of meaning for me, or to the level of meaning, not limited, but I can then answer this, what am I, by using my different senses.

[17:12]

So I then have the When someone speaks to me, I sometimes say that I am very happy. That means that I only listen. Or even when I am outside in nature, I sometimes manage to only hear or only feel or smell the different fields of meaning. Only in the case where I consciously observe them, So if you ask, what? For me, this can answer that much more with my sense fields or something. It doesn't restrain or just restrict only to the sense fields, but that's an image came to me that we have a saying in German. If you listen to somebody, yes, I'm all ear.

[18:14]

And so I am sometimes able to just listen or when I'm outside just smell or just hear. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and then she said, but if I of course notice that I'm just listening or just seeing, then it all really crumbles when it gets conscious. Yeah. Yeah, and we discovered that this is also a spatial feeling or a spatial space containing or something. And this morning when I sat in the zendo and I heard the Han, it felt like all around me was like nothing but just sounds everywhere.

[19:27]

Good. Perhaps someone from that group can say something. Okay, so for me I went for a walk this morning and then I understood something because for me just the questions who am I and what am I was quite difficult to understand and kind of regurgitating the kind of impact of what the, or this kind of group did.

[20:42]

I think it would be, I would phrase the question differently now, and I would ask, who do I think I am? And then I would get the, I could access it differently. And then could you also ask who, What does whatness feel? Yes, I would also change the word. Not think, but feel. When I say what does whatness feel, I mean something like I said a subjective object. Okay. Someone else. Thank you. Yes. I don't want to report from the group. I just want to talk about my experience with this.

[21:49]

Okay. And it seems to me that the who question, both of the questions lead to different states of mind. And the who question more leads to the personality, to all things I'm identified with, so my history, my body, and also my roles, what my superego tells me I should be, how I should behave in this situation, and all these things. And I have it's it's i have always a bodily feeling with this it's something um it's something tight and like a little contraction uh inside it's um sometimes it's boring it's always the same patterns it's exhausting because i always have to do something to fulfill this um

[23:03]

I have sometimes the picture, it feels like a little bit scratchy. I don't know how you call this. We call it sea hedgehog. Sea urchin? Yeah, with the stings around. Yeah, spines. Yeah. And the water question... The word question is something always fresh and always new, always exploring and discovering. It's a very wide, open feeling. It's like flowing. So sometimes... There are stones and rocks in the river.

[24:07]

It's a waterfall, but it's flowing. sometimes it feels like there would be not a cover here, like the heart is completely open, like touchable and vulnerable and being in, how do you say, in harmony or unison with the things. Deutsch, bitte. For me, these two questions lead to different mental states. The question of who leads more to the personality, to everything I am identified with, my history, my body. my profession, also how I think I am or have to be, so also what I practice, how to behave. And there is also such a physical feeling to it, it is somehow, it is narrow, it is, yes, it is like slightly scratchy, so I always have this picture, such a contraction, like a seagull inside me, that it feels like that.

[25:24]

And the question of whether it is true leads to a state of mind where everything is always new, always fresh, where you can always discover something new or research, and where it also feels far inside, like when something flows, like a river, I mean, there are a few stones in it, and sometimes there is a waterfall, but it flows, and sometimes it also feels like... As if there was nothing there at all, as if the heart was completely open, so very touchable and vulnerable, so totally in harmony with everything. Okay, thank you. Let's hear it again. First. Yes, I wanted to report from the second.

[26:28]

So one thing has just been said about this picture of Pindel and that the question of GER was strongly, as I said, related to geography, that the question of GER was also very, very painful, that it was experienced by some of the group, perhaps also by all, also in the fact that one distanced from others and always wants to defend this eagle or personality and has to So, I'm reporting from group number two, and this image of the hedgehog has come up already, and we... The sea urchin? The sea urchin and the hedgehog is just ocean, sea, hedgehog in German, right? Ocean hog. The others have been calling about that, to swallow the ocean in one gulp.

[27:34]

That would be an ocean hog. Who question is more related to biographical things. It's often connected more with kind of pain and suffering. And that one is usually much involved in protecting this who or what oneself or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. As far as this eagle is concerned, I had a dream where I was like an iron eagle. I had the picture as a child and it fits very well. So I had a dream as a kid and it felt as if I was inside some kind of iron hedgehog and I think this image suits here quite well.

[28:45]

I would like to point out that we still have the question of hope, which has concerned me personally. So later we started thinking or questioning hope. And I'm personally quite interested in it. And we discovered that hope actually means you kind of wish yourself away from where you are, something like that. and that it is perhaps better to have hope with trust.

[29:52]

So that you have a trust invest, that slowly rustles into one, grows into one. And this trust is less that you wish for each other, but that you The trust that life is a change anyway and that this state, this suffering of loss is changing anyway. So this morning I spoke to Paul about this and we thought maybe it's better to say maybe some kind of, have some kind of trust that kind of percolates into you. So trust also in change and trust that this kind of more painful state or definition or something is also going to actually change.

[31:07]

Mm-hmm. Then to the bass question. I have now felt that it can be very relieving to concentrate more on what I am. Because this, who am I, is not only burdensome, but also boring. Just this question, who am I? so for me this what question really comes like a relief because this who question is not only kind of painful but on the other hand it's the thing that repeats itself over and over again the whole life long so it's kind of actually a boring question

[32:08]

Yeah, okay. Yes? I was also in this group. So I was also in the same group, and for me the difference of who am I and what am I wasn't such a big question. Difference. Because... Für mich gibt es zwei verschiedene Fragen, wer bin ich? Das eine ist die gesellschaftliche, übliche Frage. For me there are two questions, who I am. One is the kind of societal, more common language. Und das andere ist, wenn ich sitze und mit der Frage da bin, wer bin ich? And the other one is when I sit and I kind of rest with this question, who am I? dann führt mich auch diese Frage eigentlich zum Spüren, wie ich da bin, also was gerade im Moment da ist.

[33:15]

Then also that question leads me to who I am and what is here right now at the moment. Ich spüre auch aufgrund der Frage dann, dass das nur eine Aktivität des Haltens ist. And also through the who question, I can feel that this is just an activity of holding. And then they complete the what and who question into this subjective object activity. Okay. noch eine andere Thematik hatten wir. Wie komme ich in Kontakt zu anderen Menschen ohne eben dieses langweilige Rollen austauschen?

[34:21]

Then we had this other theme. How do I get in contact with another person without this kind of boring exchange of roles? Then we did find different accesses of how one can actually get through those various levels. One would be that you consciously breathe with the other person. And then suddenly something else in the conversation becomes more important. But that we also do need this I that's functioning, it's not just defined or kind of bordered in by negativity or something like that, negative connotation.

[35:46]

Okay. Good, thanks. Someone else? Anyone else? Yes. Would you like to tell what happened to me yesterday? I went for a walk and I asked myself, do you really want to continue that path of breath? And the answer was, I do not want to get back into this swamp of thoughts. And then the thoughts really suddenly were gone for five or ten minutes. There was nothing left, no family, no Johanneshof, no job and all that There was just this paved path, the field and the birds And I felt very lonely, there was just nobody there I was there

[37:02]

So you went on vacation. Sorry? He went on vacation. But you needed somebody on the vacation with you. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. Das ist immer ein Ausmessen und da kommt eine ganze Menge Werkzeuge vor in Form von irgendwelchen Schablonen. The who question we notice is something that's always some measurements going on and a whole load of tools and templates are required. Und in der was-Frage... And in the what question, there are no more tools, and it's just sensory impressions carried by the breath. Okay. Anybody else want to say anything? Okay.

[38:42]

A move the Buddha made during his lifetime, as far as we know, was to shift, to create a contrast with what's now called Hinduism, the Indian religion of the time, which emphasized a permanent and transcendent self. So he wanted to represent a contrast to what we now know as Hinduism, but that was then the religious environment he had, or philosophy. And they believed that there is a transcendent, permanent self. Yes. he emphasized, in effect, the body as self.

[39:44]

Okay, now, the whatness of us is more the self as body. Now, What we're talking about here is where do we establish our sense of identity and our sense of continuity? And what do we emphasize in terms of quantity of time or importance? And what do we define as quantity of time or as important for us? I think all of you, most of you have gotten a feeling for this, you know, the difference is simple.

[40:45]

The difference asking what we are, the difference between asking what and who. And I also think an example I've used recently is if, you know, if there's something terrible happened like a tsunami recently. And after the water recedes, we find all of us are hanging onto a tree. We all have a very common view of what it is to be alive. We're all glad the water's down. We're glad we seem to be alive. I'm glad each of you found a tree.

[41:51]

So this is actually a kind of common vision. It's a humanity, a humanness, a whatness we share. When something like that is pressed upon us, like I know a number of people who were in New York at the time of the World Trade Center destruction, People speak about how for some weeks there was a kind of elation or good feeling people had with each other. And after a few weeks it disappeared.

[43:03]

So amongst people not about their situation sort of. Among people who... So we feel something like that in a big storm or, you know, big snowstorm or something. And it emphasizes some commonality we have together in the world. And often a kind of elation goes with that. Und dem geht oft so etwas wie ein gehobenes Gefühl einher. Okay. Yeah. Why does it go away? Why can't we always feel it? And in practice, I think we sort of always feel it.

[44:04]

But we can't. Now, one of the main practices of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and this whole There's been centuries of exploration of what we are and we can't do it all today. But just this one example that you notice your four elements. Which are simply earth, water, fire and air. But you experience your own solidity and fluidity. And the motility, the heat, the aliveness of the body. And the space of the body.

[45:17]

And so forth. Okay. But you also experience this with others. So when I meet somebody, I meet their what-ness. There's an emphasis on the what-ness, not the who-ness. No, I don't mean that there's no who-ness, but the emphasis is on the initial impression is taken in the what-ness. Also, es heißt nicht, dass ich sage, es gibt diese Wahrheit nicht, aber dieser erste Eindruck, dieses erste, ist eben diese Wahrheit. Maybe it's like falling in love, you notice the what-ness of the other person.

[46:20]

Oh, she looks nice. Das ist vielleicht dieses, wie das sich verlieben, dass man nur die Wahrheit jemand empfindet und man denkt, oh, die sieht aber toll aus, oder er... So there's this sense of the physicality, the solidity, the aliveness of the other person. And this is not comparative, it's just a kind of shared what-ness. And that's a kind of starting point. in every situation. So it's a shift in emphasis. It makes a difference in how we feel connected. And I think that, again, since I've been reading this book of Temple Grandin, You know, with a horse, the wetness of a horse is fantastic.

[47:34]

And... Rosemary has these fantastic pigs, huge pigs. When I first saw them, I didn't know how they'd react. I wanted to jump in with them and say, I love you. Pigma is like, fresh. Okay. Yeah, but each person has this kind of presence and power. We notice it in babies and we notice it in animals, but we don't notice it in adults.

[48:38]

But you can see, I can feel a person who has practiced a lot. There's a kind of physical presence in how they're just standing. You know, like I say, practice in edicca. Pick the longest line and just enjoy standing there with these animals around you. Also, wähl mal die längste Schlange an der Kasse und genießt es einfach mal mit diesen ganzen Tieren dort. Du musst dich nicht da eilen, um durch die Kasse durchzukommen. Okay, so I think it's time for a break.

[49:50]

But we have some interesting things to do, I think.

[49:54]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_77.8