Yes, I said I appreciated the discussion that became whispered teachings in my ear. I'd like it really just to continue the discussion, but maybe I can add a little something to it. There's a teaching in basic teaching in Buddhism of so-called two truths. And they're called two truths and taken as a true way of seeing things.

[01:04]

One is to see things as relative to each other and different from each other. And the fundamental or absolute truth is to see things as profoundly interconnected. And the fundamental truth is to consider things as deeply intertwined. Okay. So within immediacy you can be in it

[02:10]

in its relative separation or in its connectedness. I've never spoken about this quite this way but it came up listening to your discussion earlier. We can make an assumption that everything has always been the same and there's no beginning, cosmos after cosmos. And there has been no beginning. Or we can say there was a beginning and even a creator. But then you have the problem of what's a creator or you have the problem of what's before the beginning.

[03:20]

Really, we can't. We can't prove either way, right, I think. If there's a big bang, then there's lots of big bangs. Okay, so... Buddhism and yogic culture comes down on the side of no beginning. There's always been, there's no beginning. It's always been some sort of flux of something or other. We can't prove either. So Buddhism and yogic culture comes down on the side of it's more useful to say it's always been so and it's continuous.

[04:38]

And Asian and Chinese yogic culture carried a step further. Which is that it's all interconnected. But really interconnected. There's a koan we looked at recently, koan 17, if you're interested, I'll show you real quick. And it turns on the phrase, a hair-breast difference is as the distance between heaven and earth. And reading it quickly, people often think it says as the difference between heaven and earth.

[06:09]

But it actually says as the distance between heaven and earth. Okay, that's a big difference. All right, so the concept in Chinese culture, which this is referring to, is heaven and earth are actually just one thing, and they've been separated. They're not different. that heaven and earth are actually one thing that was separated from one another. And through our actions in the world So... Okay.

[07:31]

So I've never spoken about this exactly, so I'm finding my way now. So Dharma is a word which means to hold. To stay or stay in place. And the teaching of Buddhism is that everything changes. So Dharma in a way is what changes less or tends to stay in place. Okay, now then the concept of immediacy is that everything is simultaneously, there's an aspect that's staying and an aspect that's moving. It's again, let's take the image I use often of a tree.

[08:42]

The tree, the leaves are moving. But if you look carefully at the moving of the leaves, you can see the stillness of the trunk in the moving of the leaves. Or the more common image is of a wave. The shape of a wave is attempting to return to stillness. Now this sense of realizing of being fully located and immediately immediately is simultaneously moving and still.

[09:58]

Die Unmittelbarkeit ist gleichzeitig bewegt und still. You can look at the leaf of the tree. If you look carefully, you see the stillness of the trunk. So the assumption is that in all of the activity you can also see the stillness. So how would this apply to the discussion earlier? which now let's see if I can say something else here the Chinese version of this way of thinking this yogic thinking is that everything is maybe the background is fully connected and only the foreground looks different

[11:00]

You can act through the connected background or act through the separated foreground. And again, going back to what I've often said over the years, we have a cultural tendency, a belief even, to see things as separated. Wir haben eine kulturelle Tendenz oder sogar einen Glaubenssatz, die Dinge als getrennt voneinander zu betrachten. And we have to establish them as established connections. So I've often given the suggestion that you use a phrase like already connected as an antidote to already separated.

[12:21]

No, I'm not sure. Some of this I feel I'm being clear. Some things I'm not. I think I could be clearer. We'll see if I can do it better in the future. Okay. So already separated, our usual assumption is a cultural view. already connected is a yogic view and what's interesting about so the views are prior to perceptions So if you have a view that things are separated, that's what your perception will tell you.

[13:43]

So if you can begin to place, prior to perception, the view... If you can establish the view that or try out the view that everything is connected, that space connects, which is also true. You will begin to, your percepts will begin to reflect connectedness rather than separation. So the teaching of Buddhism is playing with making use of what you put prior to perception. So now we go back to your discussion and the therapist.

[14:54]

A Buddhist therapist would assume already connected. And would pretend perhaps that there was separation at the beginning of the session. And then would subtly move toward assuming connectedness. And the Chinese yoga view would be to carry it one step further. It's not a matter of difference, it's a matter of distance. So if you... It's like everything is one. I mean, for us, if you say everything's connected, us Westerners... We want to find the mechanism of connection.

[16:15]

How is it connected? Show me how. Or we want to know what the medium is. But Chinese yoga culture just accepts it's connected. Now, I'm not saying it's right or wrong exactly, but it is a useful shift in the way of looking at things. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying it's a useful perspective, a useful shift in the way we look at things. So the assumption here would be if you were a Chinese Zen Buddhist yogic therapist. If you established connectedness, the client would also move into that field of connectedness. Excuse me, what is your name?

[17:30]

Bernhard. Bernhard said earlier that in Tibetan Buddhism, compassion is a mutual creation. That's just Chinese yogic thinking. So perhaps the Zen therapist would assume more connectedness than the average Western therapist would assume. And if they acted within the assumption and view that there's connectedness, that assumption and view would pervade the situation. the client would have to resist it rather strongly.

[18:42]

And then some do. But the view where I'm trying to see how Buddhism fits into this stuff, The Chinese Buddhist view is that there's some overlapping fields of connectedness of different frequencies but within the same bandwidth. And if you can sort of find the frequencies, you've... you begin to establish a new kind of connectedness that's already there, but it has to be brought into articulation. So anyway, I just wanted to, and finally I partly brought that up from what...

[19:46]

Can you say the last sentence again? What? The last sentence. We went for the last sentence at once. What did I say? You said that. Can I repeat it? Sure. You decide. Okay. Now, I think if you... function within that kind of assumption and you do establish this breath spine column. That's a very powerful embodiment and maybe enspacement. So I said the three aspects of breath practice.

[21:03]

Or this breath mind, spatial breath mind column. And the establishment of temporality of duration with the succession of breaths. And the third was the attentional breath mind. But just by being present within and as each breath develops an attentional field. And that attentional field would establish, would be assumed in Zen and in our duksan and so forth, like that, the way we meet with each other. And that attentional field would establish, would be assumed in Zen and in our duksan, the way we meet with each other.

[22:23]

that that establishes a kind of a mutual attentional channel. Now I'm starting to sound a little new age here, a newage. But I think if you're interested and as a therapist you want to experiment, you can try out this feeling of establishing a bodily breath presence. Establishing a breath mind presence. is that the assumption within Chinese yoga culture is that you are entering a shared medium.

[23:37]

That as the world is profoundly interconnected, And we can think of ourselves as individuals. We can also, if you see parents and children together, you can see we're multigenerational beings. Do you have two children? Yeah, a multigenerational being right there. Yeah, so temporarily over time we're multigenerational beings, but the assumption is that in the immediacy we're some kind of mutually resonant or radiant being. Yeah, I just thought I should throw that into the discussion.

[24:41]

To see if it's of any interest to you. Okay, so now maybe we could... Turn toward each other. If it's okay. Oh. That was funny. So I guess my question would be, do you think that goes too far, or is there some truth to it? The question would be, does that go too far, or is there some truth to it?

[25:48]

So, from the point of view of accessibility, first of all, In other words, to what degree shall we assume connectedness in an already present connectedness that needs to be brought into articulation? Oder in anderen Worten, zu welchem Ausmaß können wir Verbundenheit annehmen? Eine Verbundenheit, die in eine gemeinsame Situation hineingebracht wird. Wo ist die Grenze zwischen einem Glauben daran und einer Vorstellung, oder die Kraft, sich so etwas vorzustellen? And you're right.

[27:28]

But I can't hear them. A little bit. Because I think that the connection or the resonance that there is, especially when it comes to therapeutic processes, it can be that there is a young person sitting in front of me and brings in his things with a completely different language of youth or something like that. And I'm just amazed what I hear there. And then I suddenly notice how I go into resonance and almost feel as if I myself were also young. Yes, that's it. And then I realize that if I put myself too much into this space of connection, then I can hardly converse or bring in something new.

[28:36]

So then I need to return to the separateness, so to speak. In order to draw me back from this connectedness to something new, or something critical, or to bring on other forces. I sometimes say it's like a brain training. It's in and out, and in and out again. You have a tendency to move, don't you? I think it's more like a double exposure, and with a double exposure I can focus on the same picture.

[29:40]

You do focus in some way. It's the same with your own children. They are somehow also confronted with another generation. Or even with even older people. My mother, before she died, I also somehow had another stroke of a nose. But also the connection, the connection and the two other people. of the other world, or of a completely different universe. When I think about it, I think that it is not at all different from what it is at the same time. You think so? Yes. When I create a connection, I can not only so to speak, separation, if at the same time I create a connection. So, if I don't create a connection while I separate, I break something off.

[30:44]

So, from my point of view. That is, for me, from the feeling, a completely different connection than a connection of I like you. It's a very basal, I can't even express it with words, a basal feeling of connection. It could also be with my dog. The connection is clear, but I think it's a distinction between the brain focus or the brain function. I have the feeling it's something else that I need when I'm separated. I don't know how you see it, but I think the connection can stay, but it's more like a background. An underground, so to speak. Die wird nicht verlassen, aber es ist auch nicht voll drin sein.

[31:57]

Oder? The interesting thing about it is that this word distance is interesting. Because that means in German Entfernung. Entfernung. That means I distance myself and that means come closer. That's the interesting thing about it. Entfernung. Less distance. That's the interesting thing about it. It is said that if you don't go back, you won't be able to see clearly. The question is always the same. So that more distance doesn't get too close to the world, so that you can't see clearly. That's a good question. You don't have to limit yourself today. To make rational, analytical decisions, because this is the way it is. This was his assumption. I would like to point out that the reference to Gerhard Vogeldase has been made a mistake.

[33:03]

I believe that there is a practice that could make us, as psychotherapists, a series of overlaps. In the 1970s, there was such a narrow-minded psychiatry, a movement, which brought the co-calls into the field, whether the asymmetry, also with regard to psychotherapy, And it is nothing more than what I have just mentioned here. Simply the arrangement in the verbal column and the silent, active listening to what is always said without intervening. So help not in the form of intervention, that can be inspired by my spirit, then I have to decide the process, the overlap, the failure to trust it.

[34:35]

And that's always what I notice, that I get grudges from Roshi when I say I'm creating my own world. Then I always hear, that's not my world. I just thought I was enjoying your face. Okay, I have to explain. If you ask me what kind of therapy I do, I always hesitate and do not dare to call myself a body therapist, because I am a physiotherapist to a certain extent, and I have ashamed myself a little, but more and more I find it not very comfortable to see myself as a physiotherapist.

[35:53]

I believe that simply the perception of the body I don't have any stress on my own body and also on the body of someone who already works so much. Also, ohne dass etwas gewollt wird, dass ich mit unserer Prozesse ergebe, die ich als sehr, wie soll ich sagen, als besonders empfinde. Immer dann, wenn ich viele gute Sachen gemacht habe, mache ich am Ende nicht ganz zufrieden. Aber mit Rutger machen die Sitzungen, mit denen ich nichts intendiere, direkt die Besten. This is a very important point for me, also in this process of separation, where I do not have the feeling that I am creating a catapult, or that I should create it, but it is more like letting it lean back into you.

[37:06]

And what I meant was something like a feeling of being nourished, something that nourishes me. Yes, also in this trying out, if I assume that everything, that this basic consciousness is there, and I can just let it in, then it is something that simply nourishes me personally, and this criteria of being nourished is something that we orient and there is also in what I see in the room, in the therapeutic soul. Yes, yes. I find the word in German, verbundenheit, difficult.

[38:23]

Because verbundenheit always sounds like if I had two parts that I want to connect with each other. So I find the German word to question. I don't know if there is a better word in the German language for it. Maybe it's really better to just use the word presence. Because the presence is this space that is there. It is present. For me personally, I don't think the word connection is good. Dr. Ragen, the presence to share? Yes, the room is open for everything. That means, everyone can go in there. That means, both the therapist and the client. There are no limits.

[39:24]

And with that, of course, everything that wants to be created can be there. As it has been said this morning, without there being a evaluation in it. The room is there. If I go there and say, present, then everything is possible, right? Because presence says present moment, now. Maybe we can try to understand it from the moment, because I was just thinking, is there a connection here between all of us? And if you think of someone who is not here, it would be my connection as well. I'm not sitting here with my son, so what is our connection here? Is it flexible now? In separation, there's either separation or there's connectedness. Your emphasis is separation. But if your emphasis is connectedness,

[40:46]

There are many frequencies of connectedness. And separation is just one frequency of connectedness. So it's not as simple, I meet a connector or not, but rather you can be settled on different frequencies and bring the person you're with into those frequencies or be out of those frequencies. It's more like that in the yogic way. Yes, so you're in the midst of a person of many frequencies. You can decide the practitioner or the bodhisattva practice. You can decide which frequencies to tune into.

[41:49]

Or to tune into different frequencies alternatively or simultaneously to shake the person you're with up a little because they get hooked into one and then suddenly they're in another and then, whoop, what's going on here? Yes, you can be whatever. Each person you meet, you want to listen to all the frequencies that are there, or as many as you're capable of being present. So it is then that with every person you meet, you try to listen to as many frequencies as possible, or at least as many as you are able to hear yourself. I would like to ask you a sentence from Rilke, where does my life end and where does the night end?

[43:06]

To the question of who? It would be interesting to think about how we could define or describe war in this aspect. It would be interesting to think about how we could define or describe war in this aspect. It would be interesting to think about how we could define or describe I think it's quite fatal that it's the non-perceiving of forbidden things. Yes, as well as... It requires the perception of the reality and to connect with it or to creep with it. Because the perception of forbidden things is the reality itself. There are more relationships. It's like the image of confusion and viral frequencies.

[44:08]

But I don't think so. Yes, and you can go back and forth and say that war is also a form of connectedness. And I just came up with something else about the word. There is also binding in it, that is, something like attaching, fastening. And if you transfer that to the situation of war, that's exactly what comes in. I'm more from marketing, I'm not a therapist. I used to advise existing founders and they always asked me, how do I get to new customers? I always suggested an exercise that in the evening, when you lie in bed, you just imagine these new customers.

[45:17]

And that doesn't necessarily come across as a resonance in such a chorus. But those who did it had remarkable success. I think that's possible in a more profane field like new customer acquisition. The same is true if you are afraid of something or learn something new. To imagine it in advance is a practical method, no matter if you are a student or not. or to get on a plane, that this imagination and foresight gives security and makes learning enormously easier. And I see that with the customer on the same wavelength, so to speak. That I connect with something before, which is new to me or which I don't even know yet, to then actually be prepared and also have something, one might say, forbidden, It's easier to imagine in the future.

[46:33]

It's the same. There is still the new good-luck procedure. It's just that in the MRT there is no difference whether you imagine something or not. Yes, that's right. The wish-fulfilling goals and all that. We should need a lot more. This is also a form of connectedness, to take these worlds of imagination into account. Connectedness is certainly also like that. Although one would have to investigate whether this was really an idea of ​​your client after the new customer or whether it was something like, I am completely with me.

[47:40]

And the more I am with myself, the more this realization is in me and what is in me is also outwardly there. I don't know if you realized it internally, not just imagined it, but really found it in yourself, carried it, let it be. That doesn't make a difference. As far as I can imagine, it's in the mind. The imagination is not outside, but in me I imagine that it is there. And then it is also in me. At the same time outside and in me. That's how I would see it. Philosophically, the word imagine means that I put it in front of me and that means I bring it out.

[48:45]

I am no longer located in myself, but I go with it on difference, really on difference, on difference. What I imagine is separated from me. But I'm just thinking whether it's not the clients who succeeded, it's more about, I say, really, I'm coming back to the distance, that they have brought the distance to the new patients or clients into themselves. The distance. I know this a little bit from the work of physical therapy, where the attention goes, the energy goes, where the energy goes, the consciousness goes, and that means that I expand the space of my consciousness,

[49:53]

by incorporating them. They were always there before, but I only expand my space of consciousness, so that they are now more there. In addition, Mr. Butscher, I thought, where there is attention, there is reality. Yes. How is it then with the construction versus deconstruction of self? So it concerns me when I work with children and grandchildren, the emerging self and afterwards the narrative self, i.e. the conception of language, which must first arise before I

[50:58]

in some way on the path, the Buddhist path, Zen path, and this self-realization concept. On the one hand, it seems so plausible, and on the other hand, I find it incredibly difficult to get it together. When does this turning point work? For young people, or let's say in poverty, it is often something that young people are looking for, but which puts them in extremely dangerous conditions. And I don't know, I really don't know what to say. Then, it is a Yes, but it's an accessible way.

[52:08]

It can't be better. Actually, it sounds paradoxical. I first need myself to be grown up and not to give up on the way. And lastly, I never do it, because otherwise I think what E.K. Roshi said earlier, it needs a point of orientation. I have to have something that I can orientate myself to, so to speak, from there the biggest width or change and to allow the non-stable at all. And I think it is helpful and in my opinion even necessary that I first really construct it.

[53:16]

I experience it from time to time as a psychiatrist that people come to me with such spiritual crises and their basic dilemma is mostly that they Yes. The problem at this point is that you can't generalize it. That means, I have to do it with the individual body, mind, soul. That means, for everyone this place or the attitude that he takes in to locate himself is different.

[54:18]

That means, it should actually be such a support in such a process of self-discovery. You asked me earlier. about children, at what point, what we'll say, what you said. Yes, I had the question about the point, the point of development from which a Zen practice is at all first of all conceivable.

[55:23]

Well, I would say that if your worldview is a belief, you believe in it. It's dangerous to mess with people's worldviews. And I used to have to be more careful than I am now. Because now people who come to practice usually are fairly flexible in their views. But you can precipitate nervous breakdowns. Or real crises. And some people, I'm practicing, they have to make a decision. They can go through of crises and their sitting is strong enough that they can find their compass point or anchor or reference point in their sitting despite the fact that they have really lost where they are.

[57:03]

Or real crises. And when I practice with someone, I sometimes have to make a decision. And I believe that they are able to find a anchor or a stability, a reference point, something like a compass in their sitting practice, although otherwise they may be quite disoriented and lost. No, I have three daughters. I've never tried to, except inadvertently, ever talk about practice with them. I think practice is an adult decision. And I think I've seen a lot of damage done by what seems to me pretty clear when the whole Maharishi thing was big in Europe. And I know people who practice with me whose parents were Maharishi teachers.

[58:06]

And the general idea with the little meditation is good, more meditation is better. Which is simply not true. And I saw a lot of four or five people who their parents were... What do the Maya people call themselves? Anyway, they were teachers. What? Anyway, who then meditated a lot while they were teenagers. And it really interfered with their development as teenagers.

[59:23]

But if my little granddaughter It's out on the porch, right, on the deck. And she's saying, I said, what are you doing, Polona? And she says, I'm looking. And I said, yeah, she says, thinking. Yeah, I might say to her, just as a throwaway. Do you see the... When you're thinking, do you see the contents of mind or the field of mind? No, she can't... But... If I did that, it's seeding possibilities so that views are relative views and not belief views.

[60:51]

But she might think her grandfather's nuts, which, you know. Yeah, but still, it's a kind of seed that stays there. contents of mind, field of mind. And she might start noticing. But I wouldn't do any more than throw seeds in. So I don't know how my 14-year-old My two older daughters, 52 and 37, I guess.

[61:52]

I mean, there was no real teenage rebellion because they never had a childhood separate from adulthood. There was never such a thing as a teenage rebellion, because they didn't have such a thing as a teenage time that was separated from an adult time. It was all more like a ripe spectrum, and they are also in a community. So they never got caught in celebrity or Barbie doll. So I don't know, but I think you have to be careful if you have a fixed belief system. Yeah, I'm sure they have a break now.

[62:57]

@Transcribed_UNK
@Text_v005
@Score_70.59