So the question that he's asked, what is existence, or how do we know existence, is recognized first as a thought. And then as a particular thought, which in its purest form is what is enlightenment. Now, what is enlightenment is not understood to be something... Not only can you not understand it intellectually, but you can't understand it by accumulated experience. So if it can't be understood by a cumulative experience, it's understood by a definitive experience. And enlightenment is a definitive experience.

[01:07]

But not a definitive experience that defines things once and for all. But is an experience that continues to be definitive or defined, defined, defined. Do you have the feeling for what I'm talking about? Am I making any sense? What I'm saying is not very... You're not... No one's nodding. No one's nodding, yes. But what I'm saying is not complicated at all. But it requires attention. It requires energy to pay attention.

[02:09]

We are making small distinctions. And we only have so much energy. So it's not that it's difficult to understand, but you get tired. Plus, all our institutions Our medical institutions, educational, economic, political, support a particular model of the self. are based on and reinforce and support a particular model of the self. What the self is, how we take care of it, how it's governed. So it takes also quite a lot of energy to imagine something different than all the institutions of your culture reinforce.

[03:16]

And meditation is, one of the purposes of meditation is to give you that energy. Now, one last response to your question. and maybe I'll deal with non-self and self later, is when the question what existence or enlightenment is understood as a question and in a mantric terms, And mantric terms means it's understood as energy.

[04:19]

And something you plant by repetition. And the question understood as a seed is actually thought of as semen. So that your... taking a question like this, when you're really in touch with it, you feel it as a physical energy in your body. It's not a question that you just think about a lot, but you feel it in your backbone. You feel it in your stomach and in your body. And when you can feel it, then it's called, again, more accurately, bodhicitta. And then you have a possibility of coming to a resolution, if not an answer to the question.

[05:28]

So then the question is again, how do you turn this question into a mantra and a seed that you plant in the actuality of your life? This is the fundamental subtle question of Buddhist practice. The less subtle side is Buddhist practice as a form of calming. The calming part is important, but it's only a stage. Okay. That requires a lot of energy from me, actually. I have to hold the feeling of it and watch it reflect. And if I can't have enough energy to maintain the feeling of it, I lose the reflections right away.

[06:41]

Does that make sense, what I'm saying? I sometimes wonder if I'm living in a vacuum of idiosyncratic behavior. Anyway, another question. You had one. Yes, you mentioned yesterday your meditation when the noise came in. maybe in German now some people in the back didn't hear Yesterday during the meditation, the noises came in and there was noise from a tractor that was commented on as if we were not driving this tractor, but doing something out of it.

[07:53]

Yesterday you mentioned during meditation that we shouldn't only hear the trucks but also hear ourselves hearing. Shall we apply this also to the other perceptual fields? Of course. You see yourself seeing and so forth. This is carried out so thoroughly that actually it would take me some time to make clear how thoroughly this is carried out. But the basic, well, first, the basic sense of it is the shift from hearing something to the field of hearing. And the shift, again, for example, the shift from the thought of a gaining idea to the state of mind of a gaining idea, or the field of a gaining idea.

[09:25]

Sorry. Jeez. Julie Goon, yeah. And this sense of the shift from the object to the field again is felt physically. And because you can feel it physically, you can begin to make these shifts because you learn the gates or the triggers.

[10:31]

And I think the simplest example I can give of it again is the juggler. who's juggling several balls, cannot look at any one ball. You actually have to do a kind of physical shift, which involves your eyes and a feeling behind your eyes and your ears. So you don't look at the balls. Have you ever looked at a surface like in the cloth ceiling of a car? And you can suddenly make a shift where you're not focusing on the cloth, but suddenly you can see the cloth as if it were enlarged, and you can see into the detail of the fabric.

[11:41]

Now we tend to say, well, we consider it a strange state of seeing or something kids do but not something important. But Buddhist culture says this kind of difference is important And particularly emphasizes getting knowledge of the shift. And... What is the shift? Now, again, if I hold this up and ask you to concentrate on it, and you all can concentrate on it to the point that there are no other thoughts but this.

[12:52]

And that takes some effort. That's not easy to do. That's a fundamental yogic skill, a basic yogic skill you need for practice. But Zen considers this ability fairly unimportant. It's taken for granted. Because what's important is to be able to maintain the concentration when I take that away. And there's no object of concentration anymore but you can maintain concentration on the field. And that field concentration, which doesn't require an object, is very close to what's meant by emptiness. And from the nourishment of that field concentration without an object, Another state of mind arises that when a thought comes up into that field, it's not the same thought you just removed.

[14:17]

And you can examine and study thoughts differently when you can maintain the concentration of the field and not the object. So when the thought comes back up, you're no longer concentrated on the thought, you're concentrating on the field that the thought appears in. Again, these are fundamental yogic skills that are taken for granted in adept Buddhism. Don't believe everything you hear. Sukhriya used to say, why when I'm giving lectures do I sometimes have the feeling I'm fooling all you people? I don't really think I'm fooling you.

[15:25]

But a lot of our experience of being understood is when you get assent. Assent. Assent, agreement. Assent. But when the room is filled with a skeptical and partial agreement... I feel... But I have to kind of... Okay. And hearing is chosen... as a sense to emphasize and use as an example, because hearing is more easily recognized as a field consciousness than other modes of perception.

[16:37]

Now, Buddhism would understand that we like music not just because the music is nice, but because music stimulates a field consciousness. Musicians get so high playing with other musicians because they create a common field. He's a musician. So Buddhism says, to heck with the music, just create the field. And then let the music come out of the field. Then everything you hear is music. When it arises in the field, rather than you hear the object. I mean, sometimes the tires on a wet street sound like the music of the spheres. This is... This practice is a lot of fun.

[17:47]

Okay. So... One sec, one sec. So... Anyway, sound is considered in hearing one of the... The Suragama Sutra emphasizes in particular sound in hearing as one of the easiest perceptual gate to enlightenment. And you don't know exactly where something is, it's just out there somewhere you hear it. And I think probably when you die, the most important perceptual field that's left is sound.

[19:04]

And I think, what is her name? Emily Dickinson has a poem, I heard a fly buzz when I died. And there's a poem by Emily Dickinson, and it goes like this, I heard a fly buzz when I died. That with field perception and with the ship, when you look against the car roof and sometimes you only see the roof and sometimes the fibers or the structures that they meant. Give her a chance to translate. Well, this shift of mind you mentioned with the example of the cloth at the car ceiling and the shift in looking at this, can that be considered similar like when I listen to somebody and I know this person is lying and yet I'm listening to this person?

[20:34]

Of course. I mean, it's just you shift your focus, but also when you... The most fundamental way to listen to a friend is to listen with this state of mind first, which takes in their whole body and breath, and then the words are secondary. You don't just have to listen to somebody who's lying to you or loves you. Or who you love. You can listen to everyone that way. And again, excuse me for repeating myself, using this example of sunbathing.

[21:35]

But I think sunbathing is the best common example I can think of this year. One of the best common examples I can think of for this shift. When I was in London just the other day, I concluded the English must have invented sunbathing. Because there's so little sun, they can do it without any danger of skin cancer. A little ray of sun comes through the clouds and people throw themselves on grass. You see, businessmen in Hyde Park Or even little strips of grass between the freeway.

[22:47]

With their suits and shoes off, thrown down on the grass in their underwear. You don't do that in Santa Fe, New Mexico, where I live. You'd be fried to a crisp. Okay, another question, yeah. Please comment on the eyes, how to keep the eyes open and what's the object of concentration? Where you focus your attention on. Okay, first of all, again, Buddhist culture assumes that there's a third state which is neither waking nor sleeping.

[24:08]

And that third state is an adult decision. And the ego is that one of the main jobs of the ego is to exclude. To exclude what challenges it or threatens it or disagrees with it. And that's quite healthy and normal. And so we've developed a physiological mechanism Related to sleeping, which creates sleep when the ego begins to function differently. That's one of the reasons Freud used hypnotism and mesmerism and so forth. Or some psychologists use a couch

[25:25]

Sometimes it's expressed that Freud liked to be the authority and have people lying down. That may be true. But more basically, I think lying down and then having a conversation creates a different state of mind. Not quite waking and not quite sleeping. So if you close your eyes when you sit you tend to trigger and the ego makes you enter sleep realms. And if you keep your eyes open you enter conscious realms. And so you've got to give yourself, this can't be just ideas, you have to do it on all levels. So you've got to give yourself physical triggers. So you have to create a third state of eyes.

[26:37]

Neither sleep eyes nor wake eyes. So your eyes have to be a little open to let light in, but you don't focus on anything. That's the most basic answer. Yeah. In this sense, when you eat, you eat, and when you sleep, you sleep. Now my question is, how can you not sleep at night, or how can you stay awake at night? I hear in Buddhism one says, when you eat, you eat, and when you sleep, you sleep. How can I meditate while I'm sleeping? And how can I practice mindfulness during sleep? Why do you want to?

[27:53]

It's a problem for you? You mean you want to dub your dreams? What can I do? Yeah. So just sleep. Don't worry about mindfulness. But there's more to this question than I've responded to. And I really have to make a distinction between awareness and consciousness. And a distinction, excuse, please those of you who are in either Austria or Zurich with me, please excuse hearing this distinction again.

[29:08]

But it's a very important distinction. Essential for practice. But I want to say that it's a distinction that I'm making with the use of English words. And there are other dimensions of this distinction that I can't make with words because there aren't words for it. In other words, the topography of your existence is far more subtle than any one language, than the distinctions of any one language, And is far more subtle than the distinctions of all the languages combined.

[30:11]

And probably more subtle than the distinctions of all the languages there ever will be or ever have been. And all the political systems and so forth. So there's an immense capacity sitting here for not yet realized cultures and ways of being. Not yet realized cultures and ways of being. So I'm pointing out that this distinction is only a distinction I can make to you at the level of language because it's the only distinction English gives me a chance to make for you. Which is the distinction between awareness and consciousness. And basically, awareness is what keeps you from wetting your bed at night.

[31:25]

It's not consciousness that keeps you from wetting your bed at night. Now, this is in the realm of the obvious. But we don't pay much attention to it. You are aware all night or you'd pee. Or worse. Or at least messier. But you don't have access to this awareness. At least you don't have access to this awareness until you know that it's accessible. You don't have access to this awareness usually until you meditate. But this access, when you are sunbathing and you lose track of the time,

[32:27]

And you have the field of sounds of the beach. You are inside, at least on the threshold of awareness and not consciousness. So if you can learn the taste and physical feel of this threshold, you can begin to have access to the gates of awareness. I don't know what the words in German are, so I'm just using English, of course. And the word consciousness, the SCI part, means to divide, to separate. And awareness comes from the root. from the root of to be wary or to watch.

[33:56]

Not to divide. So this pulse I mentioned before, And this idea of shift and of pulse is very important in the Buddhist practice. This pulse of finding space separating and space connecting. And one space connects when you're in the realm of awareness. And space separates when you're in the realm of consciousness. Also, to give you another example, I can only think of so many examples that are easy.

[34:56]

If when I get down, from this little platform, I avoid falling over these flowers. It's consciousness that did that. But if I step down and I step on the side of the vase, or on the leaves, And the vase starts to tip over. And it starts to dump water on the floor. And I start falling on the three of you. And yet somehow I catch myself with one hand. And write the vase before it spills water with the other hand. And write the vase before it spills water with the other hand.

[35:57]

It's awareness that did that, not consciousness. Awareness is very fast and very connected. And consciousness is very slow and discriminating. You may think you're not aware, in this term I'm speaking, But all you have to do is trip and awareness is there. All you have to do is go to bed and not pee and awareness is there. But this third state of awareness is not easily available to us. Because culture and civilization and ego and individuality and Good being all obstructed. But it's always present. And always available.

[37:03]

But it's an adult decision. Why I'm saying it's an adult decision... is to not think it's something children have and you're recovering. Because I don't want you to think it's a natural state. That you've lost. Your lost innocence. That's the view of an egocentrist, deity-based culture. A non-egocentrist, non-deity-based culture sees these things, even awareness, as an artifact. That's something you generate.

[38:27]

Well, I better not go too far with this. So the phrases, when you eat, you eat, and when you sleep, you sleep, also should at least be understood in Buddhism. should at least be understood in Zen, is when you eat, you create the field of eating, and when you sleep, you create the field of sleep, in which awareness is sleeping you. So these simple statements within Zen, like when you're carrying water and chopping wood, when you eat, you eat, and when you sleep, you sleep, are true at that level, completely true at that simple level.

[39:33]

And simultaneously they're codes, a special language for yogic states of mind. It's language that develops from communicating with this topography which language can't describe. It's language that develops from this topography that language can't describe. And what I'm trying to convey to you is that we actually live in this world already, but we don't pay attention to it. And we don't know how to pay attention to it. Isn't it strange in English we say pay attention?

[40:48]

Do you say that in German? And we say spend your attention. Maybe we should say spend your attention. I saved my attention. I gave my attention. It's also interesting that in German there's actually only one word for attention and awareness. It's the same, because they're quite different. Well, that's one of the great things about teaching here in Europe, in Germany. You have the immediate experience that what I'm teaching is not in English and not in German, and it's sort of us. One reason, by the way, I come in the morning I like to come in the morning after you've started sitting.

[41:57]

Because I want you to do some of the seminar on your own. I don't want to always be here kind of being the teacher. And whatever authority I have, I want to transfer it to you as fast as possible. Because this practice depends on you authoring yourself. So that you have your own authority that doesn't depend on What people think of you and so forth. Or what you've achieved and so forth. Okay. I think that's enough talk for a while. Yes. She wants to ask a question. Sure, go ahead. What is going on inside me when during meditation colors appear and I feel like kind of floating?

[43:08]

What's going on inside you? Colors are appearing and you feel like you're floating. No, that's all. You don't think, oh, what does this mean? Oh, colors. What is it? That's all. I feel like I'm floating. What is this? That's all. And you stay in the middle of that. Now, you know, sometimes my older students like to come to these seminars because I tell about things I never tell them individually. But I have the feeling I'm speaking to you for a year. So I want to give a disappearing lecture.

[44:29]

Like rain settling into sand. And I hope a few seeds pop up in the actuality of what you're doing in the future. I know this is a presumptuous idea, but I hope anyway. So I'd also, I'd like to start out this afternoon with some discussion. Because I, you know, it's quite interesting to me to, feel how you feel. And I'd like to have any suggestions you might have for what we might do today and tomorrow.

[45:31]

Though most of you probably don't have any idea of what the alternatives might be. You have an idea about an alternative? I would like to hear more about the soul, because from what you said, she concluded that in Buddhism there is no such thing as soul. Could you say a little more about this? Well, you're right, there's nothing to say. Well, I can say something. Yes, thank you, because yesterday I heard it wasn't loud enough. for some people. So if it isn't loud enough, please tell me. You know, there's a friend of mine, Ron Eyre, did a program called The Long Search.

[46:51]

And one of the sessions ended with Yamada Mumunroshi, who was a friend and teacher of mine. A teacher and friend of mine. What's his name? Yamada Momon Roshi. He was probably the leading Roshi of Japan and the most famous calligrapher probably. He died in December of this year, I think. But anyway, Ron did this series of television program for the BBC, Time Live. And I arranged for him to interview this Mumon Roshi. They had a wonderful time talking. And when the discussion was over, Mumunoshi got up, turned around, and walked on down the hall.

[48:05]

And Ron felt that he disappeared, that Ron disappeared. He had this full attention and intimacy of this man, So er hatte diese volle Zuwendung und diese Intimität mit diesem Mann. And as soon as he wanted to do something else, Ron had the feeling he forgot all about me. Und sobald er wegging, hatte er das Gefühl, dass er jetzt alles über ihn vergessen hat. In fact, Mumon Roche, the last seven or eight years, has had Alzheimer's disease. Und die letzten sieben oder acht Jahre seines Lebens hatte Mumon Roche auch Alzheimer, die Alzheimerkrankheit. And the last thing he said, the last several years he didn't speak. And the last thing he said before he stopped speaking was, I've forgotten everything I didn't need to know.

[49:08]

He was very relaxed about it. He didn't panic, as some people do, not knowing where they are and what to do. Ron also did one of the programs on Judaism. He was talking with this Talmudic scholar. who is talking a great deal and fast and a lot. And finally, Ron said to him, but in your tradition, what about silence? Is there any silence? And the rabbi scholar said, of course, but we don't talk about it. So your question about the soul made me think of that.

[50:27]

In general, actually, in Buddhism, there's lots of things we just don't talk about. Like the story of the arrow being stuck in somebody. You really don't spend too much time saying who shot it and so forth. You just try to get it out. But some of the alternatives are we could, last time I was here on a year ago about, we actually chanted the Heart Sutra here, didn't we? And some of you are smiling. Were you here? Did you like doing it? Well, okay. But Beate's daughter Nora heard the tape.

[51:45]

And she said, what's that? She thought it was one of those large gorillas in the carnival. You know, the model... So I don't know. There's a mixed review of that. And we can do walking meditation if you'd like. Yes? Okay. But the room is rather tight, but we can do it. I don't have any cards because we passed them out last year.

[52:47]

You didn't make any more? We don't even have one left? Yes, I have one. Then we could xerox him for tomorrow if we want to chant. What? Oh, really? Not even Saturday evening? What about hotels? Yeah. I'd like to see day and night Xeroxed. Okay. Yes. Where to focus my attention? Okay. One last thing.

[53:49]

If that doorway in the hall was passable, we could go out and walk in the courtyard, but is that possible? But private, how... I see. Okay. It's okay. I just see us walking slowly through the streets. The U.S. Army is bad enough here in Hollywood. Without marching Buddhists. Okay. Where to focus your attention?

[54:49]

All In Zen practice, there are various things, there's various ways in which you can focus your attention. But the emphasis is not too much emphasis is given on focusing your attention. The feeling is more to let your attention come to attention. If you're sitting and you're concentrated, and you're trying to concentrate, sometimes you forget about your concentration, and suddenly you find yourself much more concentrated.

[56:17]

So Zen practice rather more emphasizes that kind of territory I just described than concentrating on something. So, of course, we concentrate on or pay attention to our breath. And counting your breath is one. One, you know, counting your exhales. And then also we just bring our attention to reside in our breath. Following our breath. And In a larger sense, you just bring your attention... How do I say?

[57:29]

Have a tangible feeling of location in your standing and sitting. Does that make sense? I'm sitting here and nowhere else. And I'm quite unique. Because no one else in the world is sitting here. I'm saying for you, each one of you is sitting where no one else in the world is sitting. You have a tangible sense of...

[58:40]

So concentration is developed in that way, that kind of attitude I'm expressing, rather than paying or giving attention to something. This is more a kind of tantric way of practice. So if you emphasize paying attention, you're concentrating on something and you're sort of fighting distraction. But with Zen practice more, you just enter the distractions. You find the energy in the distraction itself.

[59:55]

Does that make sense? Like if you wake up in the morning and you're depressed. You don't say so much, oh, I wish I wasn't depressed. I'm so depressed. You're a good man. But you say, geez, I'm depressed. Maybe you smile a little. Here I'm depressed again. And you sort of have, what's happening in this depression? What kind of energy is here? Can I be patient within this depression? It's more that kind of feeling. So it's concentration, but when you say concentration, you get the direction wrong.

[61:02]

Do you get the feeling? What else? Yes. Do you want to say it in English yourself or should I translate it? Translate it. Well, you mentioned bodhicitta this morning, that it means thought and enlightenment. And when I meditate and visualize light that I kind of radiate, is that the same as being enlightened?

[62:07]

Is that right? Not if you say so. Nicht, wenn man das so sagt. I think it's better just to say, oh, I have some, as I said to this woman, I have some experience of light. And not give it some name like enlightenment. The English word for enlightenment, the English word enlightenment What is translated as enlightenment in English with the word light in it? Buddhism is often called utter darkness. So the light as a dimension of religious and spiritual experience is only a part of what we mean by enlightenment.

[63:10]

Do you have something? It's interesting to hear more about karma. Now, let me say something here before I come to your question. What we've done here is we've set up a loom. A loom. A loom, yeah. And we're the warp and the weft. And we're the warp and the weft. Are there any specialists here in weaving?

[64:28]

Or whatever, you know. And I've begun to weave some... First I've tried to give you a feeling for the loom. Or last night I tried to give you a feeling for the loom or the quality of the fabric. So now we've been weaving some pattern into the cloth. And this So from this point on, what part of the pattern you've gotten a feeling for and what part of the pattern you'd like to see extended? And I will try by tomorrow afternoon to finish the, to some extent, to finish the piece of cloth, leaving a lot of the pattern for you to fill in.

[65:53]

But I want, you know, in Japanese weaving, which I've studied a little bit, and certainly observed, They have these extremely complex patterns and they weave in actually gold leaf on paper. They weave in little strips of paper with gold leaf on it. So the cloth will actually have real gold and real silver in it. And so I want some threads of gold and silver from you guys to come into the pattern. And if you have questions like you just had about karma, I'd like you... A question about karma...

[66:57]

or your own experience as the person who just spoke about his experience of light can arise, may have been there before you came to this seminar. So, as I said, I'm willing for you to ask anything. I'd also like you to see if you can ask whatever question you have. Find the language or the dimension of the question from the fabric we've been weaving. Okay. Yeah, well, I want to respond to karma.

[68:13]

I think in the most useful sense, karma means how you store experience. Store. Store. Louder. Those of you who have the most trouble hearing, you could come forward, you know. We have more space up here, where everyone can move a little forward. Because with the noise outside, it's difficult. We could have a little amplification, wouldn't it? Well, let's see if we can do it by moving forward. I prefer. And anyone who wants to can sit on my lap.

[69:19]

Not you too big. So karma means how you store experience. And it's a necessary teaching that arises from... The emphasis on karma in Buddhism arises from the teaching, the basic teaching of causality. So in Buddhism we like to have definitions of terms that are practice definitions

[70:22]

not descriptive definitions. A descriptive definition is almost useless. You can think about it, but a practice definition means that you can practice with this or get some entry to it. So if I define karma as how you store experience, then the next question is, how can you be present when you store experience? How do you get access to what is stored? And where is experience stored?

[71:50]

When you think of it that way, then karma isn't some sort of monolithic, oppressive thing that's forcing you along a course. Okay, so that's enough on karma for right now. And if you have more questions, I'd like to, if you have questions that follow up on that about karma, please bring it up later. And do you have something you can offer us on why you asked about soul? No, this woman here asked you. No, she asked about karma. No, but the woman in the window did, and she's moved. I'm sorry.

[72:55]

Could you please explain to us why you asked about the soul? So, clan, we get you. He said that the Tibetans don't know the soul, but he didn't tell me either, because I have no idea. And you said yesterday that there is no soul in the view of the Buddhists. And I've been wondering for over a year what kind of idea you have. And I mean, I'm going to write something about it. I'm sorry, but we'll talk about it. If not, then it's important. I think it was a promise. It came this morning. And I think you wrote something about it. But I don't know.

[74:03]

I don't think so either. What did I say? I wanted to say 8 days, but then it was too late. Can I say something? What did Eka Roshi say? Elke, well, first I tried to translate their question. She met Sogyal Rinpoche last year at the Dance Trans conference. Dance Trans? That was two years ago. Two years ago. I was there. And there she heard for the first time. I think we should switch on amplification. All right, let's try it. You can't hear back there, huh? No. Okay.

[75:05]

Okay. Maybe turn her amplification on. Or maybe you could translate to me the conversation. So Kyal Rinpoche mentioned for the first time that there is no such thing as a soul. So ever since she's carrying this question with her, and she's asking or wondering, I mean, what is there instead? Is that right? Kind of. And she's just asking if we can talk about it. If not, that's fine too. Mm-hmm. And then a few people brought up that it's possible I made a translation mistake this morning, so maybe when you commented on soul, so... I think he didn't comment on soul at all, but he translated something about soul and he said something about... Soil.

[76:09]

Oh, soil and soul, that's possible, eh? Did you talk about soil? No. It's a little difficult because people don't remember what I translated wrong. And I don't. Yeah. I said there's no permanent soul. In any case, we'll start from zero here. Is that better? Can you speak there and see? Eins, zwei, one, two. Maybe we could tip it up a little. So, is this better?

[77:13]

Okay. Okay. Well, I was afraid you were going to tell me for a moment, for a moment I was afraid you were going to tell me that Sogyal Rinpoche had said in Tibetan Buddhism there's sort of a soul. Okay. And I thought, now how am I going to handle disagreeing with Sogyal Rinpoche? Yeah. So he said the same, but originally I'm Roman Catholic and you didn't see my conflict?

[78:20]

I don't really, but I hear it. So why do you need something to substitute for the idea of a soul or the fact of a soul? You're feeling lonely? How many people here would like to have a substitute? She says she has one. Oh, what is your substitute? She doesn't have a substitute. She has a soul.

[79:24]

It's very German to have a soul. That's what black people say too in America. They emphasize a lot. They, more than white people, have soul. I think maybe they mean something a little different. What can I say? What can I say? I think this is a question of understanding.

[80:31]

I understood that you are not looking for a substitute for the soul, but if in Buddhism the concept of soul is not used in Sakyal or Kriyayogin, is there something that describes the phenomenon that we call soul in the mystic context? Yes, that is something different. I don't know if you understand what I mean. What we understand from the soul, maybe you have a totally different idea. What is it that we understand from the soul, what is it in you? It is a very great karma, it is a reincarnation. Should I translate all of this? Yes. The discussion was going about, well, is there maybe not a substitute for a soul, but is there a field in Buddhism that's maybe synonymous with what we call a soul?

[82:04]

And also in Buddhism you talk about reincarnation, so something must be reincarnated. So, what is this? Well, Catholics tend to like Buddhism a lot more than Protestants. Because Catholics find that the practice of Buddhism produces... Well, Thomas Merton said at one point... Merton said at one point... that... He feels closer to Buddhists who meditate than he does to Catholics who are not monastic.

[83:13]

He found that there's something about monasticism and meditation that produces the same kind of person. And since Buddhism doesn't have a god, it's less threatening to Catholicism than a religion which had a god and so would be competitive. Because you can adopt the practices of Buddhism into Catholicism. And in fact, there's a long history of Catholicism's relationship to Buddhism. And I'm told that some nearly 300 years ago, the Vatican decided that Buddhism was going to be the greatest threat to Catholicism in Europe.

[84:30]

And they actually began a program of studying Buddhism. And that's why there have been so many scholars of Buddhism who have been Jesuits and scholars, Catholics. At least that's what I've been led to understand. And there are even some Catholic Zen masters, which is perhaps an oxymoron, but it does seem to work. Do you have the word in German, an oxymoron? Yes, yes we have. What is it?

[85:31]

An oxymoron is something like American culture. If I make fun of myself. So when I've traveled across the country visiting Catholic monasteries, and every monastery I went to except one cloistered convent, Cloistered is you're locked behind bars.

[86:43]

In English that means they actually lock them up and they speak through little holes. But all of the convents and monasteries I visited had some people practicing Zen. And all the monasteries that I have visited, except for this one, had some people who practiced meditation.

[87:07]

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