and I talked to Mel about having a series of talks on the Diamond Sutra because one is just not enough. Also at that time I was still sort of exploring the teachings of the Diamond Sutra and I've learned a lot since then and I'm glad to have the opportunity to share with you what I've learned. I think almost everybody who becomes probably the first sutra they run into is the Diamond Sutra and it's always good to to be familiar with a couple of sutras and the Diamond Sutra is probably the best sutra you could be familiar with because it's very profound and it's very brief as well. When I first started reading the Diamond Sutra was about oh I guess was around 30 years ago when I was a graduate student when I first started reading And I would read it and I would come across little phrases that I would think would be very profound and would have some sort of a thread of meaning that I could follow, but they were only disjointed phrases.

[01:12]

And I've never been able to read the Diamond Sutra as we would a novel or a poem. that where you can begin at the beginning and somehow work your way to the end it was always seemed to be a patchwork and when I read Edward Kanzi is a man who specialized in books like the Diamond Sutra and when he got half he was writing a commentary on the Diamond Sutra when he got halfway not even halfway through he threw up his hands and said this this is this is discontinuous patches and he stopped his commentary halfway through and that was sort of my feeling about the sutra until recently until the last during the last year when I have found things that have in the sutra that have put it all together in one piece and When I first started studying the Diamond Sutra, it was sort of like another translation project.

[02:15]

And I thought, well, this should only take a couple of months. And it's been about two and a half years. It's only 14 pages in my typescript here. And it's probably still going to take me another half year. When I first started, I think I told you this last time, I went over the six Chinese versions of the Diamond Sutra and I thought just by looking at all six, I could somehow create a composite, especially relying on the commentaries by Chinese masters. The first translation in the Chinese was done around the year 400 and 250 years later, When Hui Neng, the sixth patriarch, wrote his commentary on the Diamond Sutra, he said in the intervening 250 years, 800 commentaries had been written. And those are the only ones he knew about. So the Diamond Sutra has really attracted the focus of Chinese masters as well. But by reading the Chinese, I was never able to understand the Sutra.

[03:20]

And the problem is linguistic. and I understood the meanings of the different sections of the sutra, but to really make the sutra work I had to discover the Sanskrit and it was just an accident in Taiwan. I ran into a Chinese master who did a five-volume study, a grammatical study of the entire sutra, every word, every phrase of the Sanskrit and wrote it in Chinese, but it sort of It allowed me to read the Sanskrit. And since then I've made some discoveries that have been just purely linguistic but have actually resonated in a way that has tied the whole sutra together as a string of jewels on one necklace. And so that's what I'm going to talk to you about. And what I thought I'd do is read through the chapters. There's 32 chapters in all. Just to give you an overview. because many people have different ideas about the Diamond Sutra because they'll read... because of the inability of the Sutra to be conveyed as a piece in English from the Chinese or even from the Sanskrit, by most Sanskrit scholars, people don't usually grasp the whole Sutra.

[04:40]

They'll grasp a piece of it and then they'll project that meaning throughout the Sutra. They'll say the Diamond Sutra is about emptiness, for example. Well, I'm here to tell you it's not about emptiness. it's about the body and well that's the good news. The bad news is it's about the renunciation of the body and it's really a series of marvelous fortuitous events in my life that have allowed me to sort of discover these keys that have unlocked the sutra. That's why I tell people, people ask me why I use the name Red Pine when I translate. It's because when I translate, things happen that I have no reason to, that I cannot account for based upon my limited knowledge. And so I've been able to put this sutra together and I want to talk about it to you. But in the background of this sutra is this myth. It's the myth that the Sutra is presented in response to. The Sutra is a response to the myth of Purusha.

[05:43]

Purusha is one of the oldest of all myths in the Rig Veda and all the Indians knew it by heart. It's just like we know God created the world in seven days and he rested and then he created this garden of Eden with Adam and Eve and all that. And we can trace our ancestry. Well, all Indians trace their ancestry from Purusha. Purusha created the world. But he didn't just create the world, he created the world as a sacrifice. He sacrificed his body to create the world and human beings. So this world is an act of sacrifice, it's an offering. And this image resonates throughout the entire sutra. I thought I would mention it now before we got started because there is different points in the sutra where this myth is going to become very powerful and very evident. But for the beginning of the sutra it remains in the background.

[06:45]

That's why I said this is about the renunciation or sacrifice of the body. the Sutra is about the offering, about the practice of charity, but charity practiced with wisdom. So let's just begin. What I'm going to do, and I've printed out my the current draft of this sutra in English I'll probably make changes between now and the time I give it to the publisher and it won't be in book form until next winter. It comes with a 250 maybe 300 page commentary that I just I have no means and the publisher would have objected had I made copies of that for you so I can't share that with you but what I'm going to do is read each chapter And then I'll read a very brief little English summary that I've used in my own commentary just to introduce each section. And then I'll go over the chapters line by line. But I'll try to be brief because I know our time is limited today.

[07:47]

And I'm going to try to get through the first eight chapters. Incidentally, the Sutra is divided into 32 chapters, and nobody has been able to sufficiently explain why 32. But once you realize that the Sutra is about the Buddha's body, it's very evident why, because the Buddha's body has 32 attributes. And so the Sutra is the Buddha's body, and its 32 chapters represent those 32 attributes. Thus have I heard. Once the Bhagavan was dwelling near Sravasti at Anadapindada Garden in Jeta Forest together with the full assembly of 1250 bhikshus and a great many fearless bodhisattvas. One day before noon, the Bhagavan put on his patched robe and picked up his bowl and entered the capital of Sravasti for offerings. After begging for food in the city and eating his meal of rice, he returned from his daily round in the afternoon and put his robe and bowl away, washed his feet, and sat down on the appointed seat.

[08:53]

After crossing his legs and adjusting his body, he turned his attention to the thought before him. A number of bhikshus then came up to where the Bhagavan was sitting. After touching their heads to his feet, they walked around him to the right three times and sat down to one side. Well, that's the first chapter. And here's my comment on it. The remaining 31 chapters of this sutra attempt to explain what happens in the first. Essentially they examine the nature of Buddhahood, but Buddhahood in action, what a Buddha thinks and what a Buddha says, but first what a Buddha does, which is not so different from our own daily round of existence if we could only see what we do unhindered by our misconceptions and attachments. What the Sutra teaches is how to remove those misconceptions and attachments, in short, how to be a Buddha. And it begins with a patched robe and an empty bowl and the practice of charity, the gift of sacrifice, the gift of one's life, the gift of food and the gift of truth.

[09:58]

So if I can go back up to the beginning, thus have I heard. And of course, I'll try to be brief with the first couple of chapters because when I was here six months ago, I went over the first three chapters. I think it was the three chapters. So I'll try to go over them. And if you have any questions at all, feel free to ask them while I'm going over these chapters. There's no sense in waiting. You might not remember the question and it might be hard to make it relevant. So thus have I heard, of course, the voice of Ananda, who supposedly was at this sermon. Ananda became a monk two years before the Buddha started talking about Prajnaparamita, the perfection of wisdom, and so he was present for all these perfection of wisdom sutras. I'm It's one of those anthology sutras.

[11:14]

It's called the Maharatnakuta, the Great Jeweled Treasury. And Garmadjan edited a selection of sutras from that, and the sutra spoken by Manjushri on the Prajnaparamita is actually another title for the Prajnaparamita or the Perfection of Wisdom in 700 lines. It's only about 15 pages. It's about the same length as the Diamond Sutra, but it's another marvelous of version of this teaching. I bought this book, I believe, at Shambhala several years ago. The sutras in here are really fantastic and that's one of them. More popular, not necessarily a lot of people buy this book, but the Perfection of Wisdom in 8,000 Lines is a much bigger version of this teaching and Four Seasons publishes Edward Kanzi's translation and it has the sutra in verse and then in summary, in prose summary, and it's also an essential book if you're going to delve more into this perfection of wisdom teaching.

[12:23]

And then Kanzi also translated what he calls the large sutra of perfect wisdom. Actually, it's far from the large one. It's the Sutra of the Perfection of Wisdom, and it's a composite of the 18,000 lines and the 25,000 line versions, and he uses one to supplement the other. And so these are a couple of the, and it's published by Cal, I guess. I guess that's, yeah, University of California Press. So those are some of the books that you may want to look at someday if you want. to learn about this teaching further, but the Diamond Sutra is such a beautifully succinct text. You don't need to go any further if you don't really have the inkling to do so. Some of these other perfection of wisdom sutras can be quite confusing. So once the Bhagavan was dwelling near Shravasti, the way I thought I would just talk about this sutra was to tell you what goes through my head when I'm reading this sutra.

[13:26]

Some of the things, when I'm reading a sutra, I never know what's going to be significant. I investigate all the words and then try to put the words and phrases together. I never know what's going to be important. So I'm going to talk about a few words as I go. I just wondered, how would you like to be addressed? Oh, you don't have to address me. In fact, actually, it would seem odd. Just ask the question, I suppose, would be probably the best way. I'm not used to being addressed. That's fine, but anyway, I thought so I will pause occasionally over words and mention what their meanings may be, whether or not they are in fact significant, just because they may be. The first word that you pause over, of course, is Bhagavan. Bhagavan is how Indians even today address their teachers.

[14:27]

It comes from a word that means prosperous, wealthy, well-off, but that is its secondary meaning. The primary meaning of the word Bhagavan is like a vulva or vulva-like. Again, I want to mention these words because the Buddha is teaching like a vulva. He's sort of bringing forth, as Lao Tzu says, something comes from nothing. which is the act of birth. So I never know when I'm reading words like this how relevant it is to this sutra but in fact you have to sort of these words certainly would have resonated in a certain sense to Indians and it's nice to know those resonances whether or not they're relevant in this sutra or not. Yes? yes it does but those are its secondary meanings if you if you look at in the sanskrit dictionaries the primary meaning of bhagavata or bhagavan is like a vulva and the secondary meaning is prosperous that is to give birth to many to be fakund and uh the as a result this tertiary or third meaning is then lord is a symbol of address to he who is wealthy he who is like a lord or like a vulva

[15:50]

The Bhagavad Gita. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, I don't want to pause too, too much over these words, but I want to just share with you some of, some of these, these things you may not otherwise be aware of. So when the Bhagavan was dwelling near Shravasti at Anathapindada Garden. Now, one of the most important words in the whole sutra is the word Pinda. Anathapinda. Pindada. Pinda means an offering. and pindada means to give an offering and that's what this whole sutra is about and it's not insignificant that the sutra occurs at the garden at a place which is the place of offerings and it's also not insignificant that the offerings are given to anatta. Anatta means those who have nothing, those who have no reliance. Anatta means no reliance, In short, of course, it means orphans, widows, and those who are homeless.

[16:55]

And so, Anathapindada was the name of the man who, in a sense, donated this garden. But pinda, again, is a very important word for tying this whole sutra together, was what sort of put it together for me in the first place. after reading the whole sutra and then coming back to the beginning of the sutra and I read this word pinda and I said to myself wait I just remember hearing reading that word at the end of the sutra and I went go back to the end of the sutra and of course the word pinda which normally means a ball of rice and an offering also means the universe and so when the buddha eats a ball of rice he eats the universe and it's not an insignificant association to keep in mind when you're again reading these sutras that So the Buddha is at Anathapindada Garden in Jeta Forest. Prince Jeta was the man who donated the forest of which the garden was a part and Anathapindada was the wealthy layman who paid Prince Jeta for the garden to give to the Buddha.

[17:57]

they were together with the full assembly of 1,250 Bhikshus. Sometimes some of the Prajnaparamita Sutras are spoken with a group of Bhikshus that are only a thousand, but the full assembly is 1,250. A thousand of the Bhikshus were the disciples of the Kshapa brothers, Maha Kshapa and his two younger brothers, and so it's no coincidence either that was in charge of the first council after the Buddha's death or Nirvana because most of the assembly was made up by his disciples and his brother's disciples. The other 250 were the disciples of Shariputra, Madgalayana, and another man by the name of Yashas. And of course, it's supposed to be rounded off. It's supposed to include his other five disciples, his first five disciples who he met in Sarnath. Sanskrit includes after the bhikshus and a great many fearless bodhisattvas.

[19:02]

The Chinese omits this term. The Sanskrit is bodhisattva mahasattva and there's a tendency in fact it seems to be a rule among translators to always translate mahasattvas great beings the bodhisattvas the great beings who are bodhisattvas but the term mahasattva was never It was only with the rise of Buddhism that Maha Sattva was applied to human beings. Maha means great, Sattva means being. The word Maha Sattva was used exclusively with reference to lions. And so a Bodhisattva who is a Maha Sattva is a Bodhisattva who is like a lion. And as you learn more about this teaching, you realize that the quality that is called for more than any other quality is fearlessness and being able to understand and put this teaching into practice. So that's why I translate Mahasattva as fearless, fearless Bodhisattvas. The one day before noon, Buddhists had to eat one meal a day and they always went begging before noon because the Buddhists divide, the Indians actually divided the day into periods and different beings ate during different times of the day.

[20:18]

just like animals all come down you know to the watering hole at sunset or whatever the hungry ghosts are always feeding at night and so buddhas and and monks eat during the middle part of the day and so they always went looking for their food during the middle part of the day and so the bhagavan put on his patched robe again these are the symbols of someone who has nothing who is anatta someone who has no and the Buddha only wore a robe of patches. Of course, he had several robes of patches. This was a special robe that he reserved for going about in public. And then he would take off his patched robe when he came back and he had another robe on underneath. So he put on his patched robe and picked up his bull and entered the capital of Srivasti for offerings. This is about, oh, a kilometer, maybe a kilometer, kilometer and a half just outside the town of the ruins. You can still visit the ruins of Srivasti. And Anantapindada Garden is still there, its ruins.

[21:20]

It's about a kilometer or so. And so he entered the capital of Srivasti for offerings, for pinda. Pinda, of course, means balls of rice. That was the major form of food. But pinda also means any entity up through and including the universe. After begging for food in the city and eating his meal of rice, he returned from his daily round in the afternoon, put his robe and bowl away. And again, the robe and bowl have remained the symbols of transmission in Buddhism. Washed his feet, sat down on the appointed seat. If you read this Sutra of 700 lines in here, the Perfection of Wisdom in 700 lines, you'll find out that the seat was right outside his dwelling place. and it was a raised seat it wasn't a a bunch of grass on the ground it was called the lion seat and it was something like a like this like a raised platform i'm not sure if it was made out of wood or stone but it's a raised platform right outside the buddha's dwelling place and so the buddha took his seat on that seat crossed his legs adjusted his body turned his attention to the thought before him

[22:35]

Chinese leaves that out incidentally that the Buddha focused on the thought before him and it's curious that the Chinese does and I've always as soon as I found the Sanskrit and I realized the Buddha was thinking about something um it eventually occurred to me that he was thinking about pinda about offerings about that ball of rice he just ate whether it was the ball of rice or whether it was the universe While he was doing this, a number of bhikshus came up to where the Bhagavan was sitting and touched their heads to his feet, walked around him to the right three times and sat down to one side. The Chinese Confucius in his Analects has this has this saying, he says that the perfect sage is like the North Star, he remains stationary while the whole world revolves around him. So the Buddha here is like that, just stationary as the whole world, the world of monks.

[23:38]

revolves around him. Incidentally, at the beginning of the sutra, only bhikshus are mentioned and some bodhisattvas. But if we go to the end of the sutra, there's not only bhikshus, but there's nuns as well as monks. There's laymen and laywomen, bodhisattvas, and then a whole bunch of beings, too, that we'll find out about later. So there's a whole bunch of beings here, not just monks. So, yes? Could you go over the etymology of the word bhikshu? Well, bhikshu just means to beg for, to beg for food or to beg for instruction. And as far as I know, that's the only knowledge I have of the word is to just to beg for, to ask for, to beg for something. And again, the gift of food. Yes. Why do you put on a special outfit to go begging? It seems so worldly to have a special Well, I suppose it was just part of that set of. regalia, sort of the symbols of to demarcate the person who is begging as being someone who is not just begging for food as a homeless person would, but someone who is begging because they're practicing the spiritual life.

[25:04]

Do you think his non-patched robes didn't have patches then? It was better clothing? Well, nowadays, if you see monks, their robe of patches can be very ornate patches made out of silk and so forth, and the patches are more symbolic of just numerical concepts. But I would assume it was a robe of rags, a robe made up of rags that were just sewn together. Yes? Wouldn't they have been sewn together much in the way that we sew together? he described it like a rice field. So there's this very specific I've heard that too, and one never knows how early or late those scriptures are and whether or not the Buddha put on just a robe of patches. I have met monks who just have robes of patches that they have gathered from the rubbish heap, as it were, and there's other monks who wear these rather ornate robes too.

[26:17]

I think the theory was that patches were sewn together in a particular way, but they were still pieces. After he said goodbye to his groom, he went into this forest and he saw a man, a hunter, wearing a robe of patches. And he traded his princely regalia for that robe of patches because he says, why are you, a hunter, wearing this robe of patches? This is the robe of a religious person. And the hunter said, because I can fool the deer. And so it was obviously in the Buddhist time, the robe of patches, this garment was the symbol of someone who was living without means and relied on the generosity of others. And more than that, I don't know. Right, yes, and that's what's happening here.

[27:31]

He has a special begging robe, whether it's a fancy robe or whether it is just a quilt made out of random patches, one can't say. Probably it was donated to him perhaps by somebody. I really don't know too much about that. It's a whole study as to what kind of robes people wear and more. It's very complex. It's more than we need to discuss here. Okay, I'll just move right on because I want to read a couple more chapters here. On this occasion, Chapter 2, the Venerable Sabuddhi was also present in the assembly. Rising from his seat, he uncovered one shoulder and touched his right knee to the ground. Pressing his palms together and bowing to the Buddha, he said, ìIt is rare, Bhagavan, most rare indeed, Sugata, how the Tathagata, the Arhan, the fully enlightened one, blesses fearless bodhisattvas with the best of blessings. And it is rare, Bhagavan, how the Tathagata, the Arhan, the fully enlightened one, entrusts fearless bodhisattvas with the greatest of trusts. Even so, Bhagavan, if a good son or daughter should set forth on the Bodhisattva path, how should they dwell?

[28:39]

How should they practice? And how should they control their thoughts? The Buddha told the venerable Sabhati, well said, well said, Sabhuti, so it is, Sabhuti, it is as you say. The Tathagata blesses fearless Bodhisattvas with the best of blessings and entrusts fearless Bodhisattvas with the greatest of trusts. You should therefore truly listen, Sabuddhi, and think about this well. I shall tell you how someone who sets forth on the Bodhisattva path should dwell, how they should practice, and how they should control their thoughts." The venerable Sabuddhi answered, May it be so, Bhagavan, and gave his full attention. now i have a comment here most buddhist sutras begin with a question sabuddhi has just witnessed the compassion and detachment with which the buddha performed his daily round and was moved to ask how others might do the same among the buddhist disciples sabuddhi was considered foremost in his detachment from passion He was also the disciple who best understood the doctrine of emptiness, and he saw in the Buddha's actions the realization of that doctrine.

[29:40]

Thus, Subuddhi expresses his gratitude for such instruction by example, and asks how others, not only bhikshus, but anyone who sought to live an enlightened life could follow in the Buddha's footsteps. The wording of his questions, however, reflects the limitations of his understanding. Subuddhi is still on the hinayana, or lesser path. but this is a Mahayana Sutra. So on this occasion, the Buddha spoke 16 times the doctrine of the perfection of wisdom. At least 16 of these sermons have been collected and put into a series of texts that are edited and in a series in the Tripitaka, near the very beginning of the Tripitaka. And so it was on this occasion that the Venerable Sanskrit words are funny. You can parse them. That is you can divide their component parts differently and subhuti like is like that Subhuti if you divide it one way it means born from emptiness And the night he was born his family's treasury if he was a son of a wealthy family became empty He lost all their money the night.

[30:54]

He was born and and then sabuddhi can be parsed slightly differently and it means auspicious sight. And so right after he was born, all the gold and jewels reappeared again. And so this is why subhuti is associated with emptiness. His name means born from emptiness. And he became the disciple foremost in his exposition of emptiness. And he's introduced, he is the interlocutor of this sutra for a reason, because this sutra is about emptiness, but it's about the limitations of emptiness and how that emptiness is not the teaching the Buddha wants people to understand on this occasion. The venerable Sabuni was also present that day and he rose and covered one shoulder as a sign of respect. People, commentators. think that the uncovering of that shoulder is assigned like in most primitive societies and especially in Asia today you uncover your shoulder when you want to carry something you carry things on a carrying pole and so the the disciple wants to carry the teaching of the master and so uncovers the shoulder to say that I am ready to carry

[32:12]

And it could also have military connotations too, showing that you have no weapons, you're unarmed, but I don't know. It seems a bit far-fetched for a religious audience that that would be an aspect that would resonate with the Buddha and his disciples. But anyway, he uncovers one shoulder. It doesn't say which shoulder, but it's assumed the right shoulder because he then touches his right knee to the ground. Of course, when you're going to pick up something on your right shoulder, you bend down on your right knee to do so. and then presses his palms together, bows to the Buddha, says, it is rare, Bhagavan, most rare indeed, Sugata, uses all these titles of the Buddha. Sugata means well gone, like at the end of the Heart Sutra, we have gate, gate, paragate. Gate means, of course, gone. Sugate means well gone. Now the tathagata, and again, gata is part of tathagata. Of course, gata can be, again, be parsed differently.

[33:17]

It can mean, you can have tathagata, which means thus come, or tathagata, thus gone. And so the Chinese like to emphasize coming, because thus come means to be compassionate. and to bring us the teaching. Thus gone means to go forth into enlightenment. And that's why the Chinese always translate Tathagata, Rulai, thus come. But it means both thus come and thus gone. And the Arhan means without passion, free of rebirth, has a whole series of meanings. And the fully enlightened one, this is Sambuddha, not Buddha, but Sambuddha, means fully enlightened one. And the Buddha blesses fearless bodhisattvas with the best of blessings. and entrusts them with the greatest of trusts. He blesses us with His example, of His completed example, as it were, and entrusts us because He is transmitting that teaching to us and entrusting us to carry on that example.

[34:30]

And that's why He uses these two verbs here, that He blesses us, yes, Is Bodhisattva just within Buddhism? I mean, Bodhisattva wasn't a term... Yes, it was used before the rise of Buddhism. So the idea of an awakened person was already there. Yes, it was. And a book I'm going to quote from shortly is this wonderful book that's out of print probably, The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Sanskrit Literature by Hardayal, a man even Kansi respected for his Sanskrit erudition. And according to Hardayal, the word originally meant spiritual warrior. that sattva also before it meant being meant warrior and that it just meant somebody who fights for spiritual for enlightenment and so whether you accept that or not it was actually used by traditions prior to that of buddhism to mean someone who was leading a religious life but the buddhists grabbed hold of it and you and you can even find it in in early Theravadan works

[35:32]

that are not Mahayana at all in connotation. There are some cases where you see Bodhisattva. So even the early Buddhists were using it without the special meaning that the Mahayana gives it. So it is an early term. But in any case, the Buddha blesses us and then entrusts us to carry on his teaching. And Subuddhi says, well, that even though we have this wonderful example, how can we follow in that example? How can we walk the Bodhisattva path? And again, as I follow, I accept the hard dial in this case in translating Bodhisattva yana as Bodhisattva path rather than Bodhisattva vehicle, which is a later meaning given the term yana as Mahayana. first means bodhisattva path and later as the significance of other power is emphasized in the Mahayana the word meaning vehicle is emphasized but so I always use in this sutra path for yana so setting forth on the bodhisattva path

[36:44]

How should people dwell? How should they practice? And how should they control their thoughts? And again, these are questions that sort of indicate that someone is indicating how to live their life in a sort of external way. How should they conduct themselves? What sort of morality should they abide by? How should they meditate? What should they focus their minds on? How should they control their thoughts? Sabuddhi says. And the Buddha says, oh, good question. And I'm going to tell you how. And I'm going to keep going if you don't ask questions. So, yes. This list of things, of how should they dwell, how should they practice. The last item, how should they control their thoughts, seems really much more specific than the first two. is there. It does and it betrays I think that subhuti's concern and concern with what's called the Hinayana path with mind control, with the control of thoughts being paramount or not just paramount but being the final goal.

[37:57]

First, we begin by ordering our life, our living, we dwell, and then we practice, we take up some religious practice, and then we focus our thoughts on Samadhi, on the higher teachings. And so I think my interpretation is this this focus on the arhat path, the arhant path, rather than the bodhisattva path. That's what Subuddhi's asking about. It's interesting, though, because this question also resonates with the list of activities described that the Buddha performed in this chapter, only the difference here is in relation to thought. He turned his attention to the thought before him. That's what the Buddha did. thoughts, which is not actually the way Buddha's activity was described. Exactly, yeah, right, it's true, these questions do reflect Subuddhi's awareness of what the Buddha just did and he wants the Buddha to instruct him and the other disciples in exactly those activities.

[39:10]

exactly, in a way that the Buddha, the whole Sutra is about Sabuddhi's education. This is the education of Sabuddhi and Sabuddhi just has a hard time with this teaching and the Buddha keeps trying in the Sutra to bring Sabuddhi along and we're going to note this educational process and I'll get right into Chapter 3 because The Buddha said to him, Sabuddhi, those who would now thus set forth on the Bodhisattva path should give rise to the thought, however many beings there are in whatever realms of being that might exist, whether they are born from an egg or born from a womb, born from the water, born from the air, material or not material, conscious or not conscious, or neither conscious nor not conscious, in whatever conceivable realm of being one might conceive of beings in the realm of complete nirvana, I shall liberate them all. And though I thus liberate countless beings, not a single being is liberated. And why not?

[40:13]

Sabuddhi, a bodhisattva who forms the idea of a being, cannot be called a bodhisattva. And why not? Sabuddhi, they cannot be called bodhisattvas who form the idea of a self or the idea of a being, or who form the idea of a life or the idea of a soul. So now for the comment here, this then is what Bodhisattvas do, which is also what Buddhas do. They beg for food in town, and in their bowls, they sometimes find a ball of rice, sometimes a universe. Accepting these offerings, they swallow them all and give rise to the thought of liberating all beings. Thus, Bodhisattvas dwell, practice, and control their thoughts by giving rise to a thought so completely altruistic it includes neither self nor other. Sabuddhi expected something different. Although he asked on behalf of those who had traveled the Bodhisattva path, his question was one we might expect of an arhant of the lesser path, interested in moral discipline and meditation. But instead of telling us how to conduct our lives or how to control our thoughts, the Buddha tells us to give rise to a thought.

[41:19]

This is homeopathic spirituality. The Buddha uses a thought to put an end to all thoughts, but to effect such a cure not just any thought will do. Bodhisattvas dwell on beings who are no-beings, practice liberation that is no-liberation, and control thoughts that are no-thoughts. Thus, Bodhisattvas turn their thoughts into offerings. And so going over this again, the Buddha said to him, those who would now set forth on the Bodhisattva path should give rise to the thought. And again, this is this idea of sacrifice, of the offering, that when offers up one's thought, And of course, what better offering than a thought of liberating all beings? The Buddha just goes through a list here because during his time, these different religious sects had different ways of looking at who was a being and who wasn't a being. And so he says, beans born from an egg, a womb, water, and the air.

[42:22]

And certainly that was the way maybe everyday people thought of beans. And then, but there were religious people in his audience who maybe thought of beans being either material or immaterial, not material. Or maybe there were other people in his audience who thought beings were conscious or not conscious or both conscious or neither conscious or not conscious. And so the Buddha just wanted to supply an overriding scheme of beings just to make sure the bodhisattva understands that when you make this vow you include all beings. This is also the first line of the bodhisattva vow, the four vows. yes right and it's also significant that that the buddha has here in other mahayana sutras the first thing a buddhist bodhisattva does is give rise to the thought of enlightenment and if you read other bodhisattva other mahayana sutras this is what a bodhisattva does you first give rise to the thought of enlightenment but not here because the you know this sutra assumes that that sort of in its place, the Buddha says, don't give rise to the thought of enlightenment, give rise to the thought of everybody else being enlightened, of liberating all other beings.

[43:34]

And so this is the first thing a bodhisattva does, is to give rise to this thought. that whether all beings, no matter what beings there are, you're going to liberate them all. And though you give rise to this thought of being, of liberating beings, there are no beings. And why not? Because if you are, if you do conceive of beings, then you're not a Bodhisattva. And of course, the Buddha is making a play on words here. You can't liberate beings. You can't be a Bodhi being if you don't liberate all beings. And if you think of beings, then you're not a Bodhi bean. You're not an enlightened being if you conceive of beings. And of course, the Buddha ends here with a very significant, this is the, some commentators think is this is the core of the whole sutra. No idea of self, being, life, or soul. And whenever you read sutras, one thing you should try to keep in mind is the Buddha and those who are, who,

[44:39]

helping edit his texts have this propensity for for numerical coherence and so whenever you see a list of of things that may that's maybe a list of two or three or four you can bet that in succeeding chapters you'll see that list repeated in from different in a different context and so when we see this list at the very end here self being life and soul we can go back up and we can see egg womb water air Of course the egg is the symbol of the self. Birth from an egg is birth of the self. Birth from a womb is birth of a being. Birth from the water is birth of life and birth from thin air is the birth of a soul the soul depends is like almost nothing and of course the buddhists use air here some some translators translate this as born from transformation which is not true at all the sanskrit is from as if from thin air and does not include cicadas and butterflies

[45:45]

that is through transformation it's about there's only a few beings that are included in under air certain bodhisattvas and the beings the first beings in the universe are included as under the term from thin air so whatever beings there are whether the first you know beings in the universe even the bodhisattva resolves to liberate them all liberates them without being attached to the idea of there being any beings or that he is that the bodhisattva is a being or has a self or that think of a good way to think of these these four categories also is that the Buddha is saying if there's any entity in space or time it is the spatial dimension is made up of the entity of self and being we think of the inner spatial dimension as self and the outer spatial dimension as being being other beings others and life and soul as being the dimension on of time of present time other times future and past and so if there's something that exists in time it's a life or a being or a life or a soul and if it's in space

[47:03]

it is self and being. So the Buddha says Bodhisattva must be free of the dimensions of space and time. He's going to add a third shortly. So let me do one more chapter and then maybe we could have a pause. Yes? This enumeration of things like egg-born, born-for-room, and these different beings, does that relate to the pinda that you were talking about? Yes. These are all these jewels. It's a good question. When I started putting the sutra together, I saw all of these words that mean entity. Pinda means entity, ball of rice, and then we get these set of four entities. Kansi in his commentary says actually the Indians had 16 such entities and for the purposes of this sutra they just choose these four, self, being, life, and soul. We're going to get into Dharma. Dharma. That was my next question. It's the two uses of the word Dharma.

[48:06]

There's the one that we commonly use as Buddha, Dharma, Sangha, the great Dharma, the universal Dharma teaching. And then there's the small d Dharma, which is like all phenomena. Yes. We're going to get into Dharma shortly. Yes. Maybe you'll be coming to this later, but that's okay we can deal with it now really this is very difficult for me to comprehend uh uh it's kind of typical in some way the buddhas that to say such things as uh anyone cannot be called a bodhisattva who forms the idea of a self or the idea of a being etc i mean but yet the bodhisattvas um Action you will is to liberate all beings you can't liberate all beings unless you have a concept of all these Now you might say well, there's no liberation at all because there never was I mean, is that kind of I never taught anything I never Said anything.

[49:15]

Well, yes, but remember Well the we will don't think about this as a in philosophical terms buddhism is a psychology and terms are all used just for their effect um and the buddha himself will use terms and then deny their usefulness and then use other terms um he's trying to do is somehow yeah yeah and and and put you into a state of not knowing what Well, no, no, it's not that, it's just that if you don't, if you do not feel compassion for other beings, you will not be, you won't even give rise to the thought of liberating other beings, but as soon as you do, you must realize these beings you are going to liberate, are liberating, do not exist, have never existed, never will exist, and this is the teaching.

[50:20]

Well believe me it's hard it's the most hard the hardest that's why bodhisattvas are fearless it's the most terrifying experience at all we don't reach this teaching I think until chapter 28 so I'm getting a little bit ahead of this but the teaching that the bodhisattva finally realizes at the end of the bodhisattva path is the forbearance of the birthlessness of all dharmas that no dharma And this is essentially the difference between the arhan path and the bodhisattva path. The arhan strives for no rebirth. The bodhisattva strives to realize no birth. The two are as far apart as can possibly be. No rebirth and no birth. Yes? apprehend any of this, it doesn't grasp it.

[51:29]

Yes. So there's this idea of not being able to grasp it and this is sort of puts you right there. Right, this whole sutra is about dharmas and no dharmas. First you deny dharmas because you might be attached to dharmas but you don't want to get attached to the no dharmas either, that's even worse because you have nothing to use. and this whole sutra is about this trying to teach subhuti how to do this and of course us too and that's why when one shouldn't grasp the statements of the buddha in terms of philosophical theorems or statements of that this is the nature of the universe but it's the nature he's sort of like creating a psychological drama as it were and these are statements that are going to have ramifications throughout this sutra and are going to make the sutra work as a teaching but we cannot be attached to the teaching naturally but the teaching will do something. Yes? This relates to the second question I had or it seems like the arhan or the hinyana or the narrow path

[52:36]

that's what he says where he says he's trying to control the mind it's like he's trying to think his way to awakening right exactly he's trying to he's trying to perspective, it's like trying to think your way to a right action, whereas the Bodhisattva path is more like you take an action and that produces the correct thought. Well, and the Buddha, of course, is always teaching according to the audience, and his audience today is Subuddhi. He's forgotten everybody else. He sees Subuddhi. Subuddhi wants to control his thought. What better medicine than to say, give me all your thoughts. I want to see all your thoughts, give rise to the thought of liberating all beings and the Buddha knows that this is the medicine that's going to cure subhuti and we're going to see how this process takes place in the sutra. Let me read one more chapter and then after that maybe we can take a short break. I want to read chapter four because it contains the other significant term in the sutra that's going to tie it all together, I think.

[53:42]

Moreover, Subodhi, when Bodhisattvas give a gift, they should not be attached to a thing. When they give a gift, they should not be attached to anything at all. They should not be attached to a sight when they give a gift. Nor should they be attached to a sound, a smell, a taste, a touch, or a dharma when they give a gift. Thus, Subuddhi, fearless bodhisattvas should give a gift without being attached to the idea of an object. And why? Subuddhi, the body of merit of those bodhisattvas who give a gift without being attached is not easy to measure. What do you think, Sabuddhi, is the space to the east easy to measure? Sabuddhi replied, no, it isn't, Bhagavan. The Buddha said, likewise, is the space to the south, to the west, to the north, in between, above, below, or in any of the 10 directions easy to measure? Sabuddhi replied, no, it isn't, Bhagavan. The Buddha said, so it is, Sabuddhi. The body of merit of those bodhisattvas who give a gift without being attached is not easy to measure. Thus, Subuddhi, those who set forth on the Bodhisattva path should give a gift without being attached to the idea of an object.

[54:44]

And now for the comment. In the previous chapter, the Buddha told Subuddhi that Bodhisattvas give rise to the idea of liberating others, but without forming an idea of a self, of being a life or a soul. What they give rise to is the gift of liberation, which is the perfection of charity. but it is only a perfection if it is practiced without attachment, without attachment to any object of the senses, including the objects of our sixth sense, the ideas or dharmas of the mind. The Buddha also anticipates our doubts about what merit could possibly accrue to such practice, for it is only by means of merit that spiritual progress is possible. This is the law of karma, which also applies to bodhisattvas. Every fruit grows from a seed. But if we practice without being attached to our practice, what sort of merit can possibly result? It turns out that the fruit from such a seed is a fruit without limits, which prompts the question answered in the next chapter, what kind of fruit could possibly have no limits?

[55:47]

So in this chapter, again, this whole chapter, the sutra is about renunciation of the body, giving up of an offering. And we saw in chapter 3 how you give up the offering, deliberate all beings. And so it's quite natural, that's why the Buddha now talks about offerings. Again, these are the connections of the sutra. It's all about offerings. and you give up the offering of the thought of enlightening all beings, and if that's true, and if you are practicing this, then you're practicing charity, the first of the perfections. And so that's why he deals with giving a gift. And throughout the sutra, he's always talking about giving a gift. And if you give a gift unattached, then you're giving a gift without the concepts, without forming these four ideas of self, being, life, or soul and then we get into probably the single most important concept together with pinda the concept in sanskrit it's punya skanda this is the most important concept to me that tied the whole sutra together

[56:54]

and why does it mean body of merit? I have to get into the words here for just a second because this is what you get from this sutra. This is what you get from this teaching. You get the Buddha's body and the Buddha introduces this body by calling it the body of merit. Punya Skanda. Punya means merit. I want to read a passage from Hardayal. because punya means a lot more than what we normally think of in merit. Let's see. So a unit of punya confers a certain kind of happiness on earth or in heaven only for a certain period of time after which it is exhausted. This quantitative notion of punya has culminated in the doctrine of parinamana or transfer of merit.

[57:58]

Punya acts surely and silently. It cannot be destroyed except by evil actions which produce demerit, and therefore reduce the sum total of merit. It is a mighty agent in the universe. All that is noble, beautiful, auspicious, glorious, and desirable in the world is the result of punya." And he goes on, "...punya is thus a wonderful power, and it is exalted and glorified in Mahayana's literature to such an extent that it is finely regarded as almost as the equivalent of prajna, or wisdom, in Bodhi. In the early period of the Mahayana, punya was considered to be the only means of securing happy rebirths, while enlightenment was reserved for those who acquired prajna, or knowledge and wisdom. But the increasing appreciation of active altruism and social life gave rise to the new idea that punya, by itself, could lead to enlightenment. This startling view is clearly expressed by the later Mahayana teachers, and he goes on about that. Yes, exactly, and this sutra, well, believe it or not, when I first realized that punyascandamant body of merit, I started thinking that it was some sort of a proto-sambhogakaya.

[59:12]

It was another way of talking about the sambhogakaya, but it turns out that this body of merit is also the dharma body, that it's all bodies. But, it's going to take a while for the Buddha to introduce this. to Sabuddhi. Another term here in Punya Skanda is Skanda. And whenever we read translations of Skanda, it's always, if you read other translations of the Diamond Sutra, it's always a pile of merit, a heap of merit, accumulation of merit, because Skanda can have this meaning. But just like with Jhana, it's a derivative meaning. But it was considered a really apt meaning, because when we look at the body and we're looking, trying to find a real self, we look at the body, and all we see are these disparate elements. And so we think of this as a pile of stuff, accumulation. But in fact, skanda does not mean this. Skanda, the word skanda comes from the word skan, which means to ejaculate semen.

[60:15]

Again, the connotations in India have been kept. When you travel through India, you see these sexual symbols everywhere in India. penis and the vagina and so we see the bhagavan at the beginning of the sutra now we see skanda it's mentioned throughout the sutra well skanda's original meaning derived from skan the root skan to ejaculate means that which is ejaculated out of the earth with to rise up and to form something living and it means a sprout, a tree. It means a tree up to the first points where the branches separate from the tree. The meaning of the word Skanda was used exclusively by the Jains to mean the personal body of all individuals. So Skanda has the meaning of a body and when Buddhists picked it up they started using it in terms of us having five different bodies that are sort of like if you buy these biology textbooks they have overlays well we have these five overlays and so we're not our skandhas aren't these these disorganized disparate elements are we actually organize our skandhas quite quite coherently even though we organize them around concepts that are basically delusions but we think of our body of form as a body of form

[61:31]

and that's one of the overlays and then we have the you know the other five skandhas that make up our body and so but in the sutra the buddhi introduces a totally new concept the body of merit this overlay of merit which is sort of this projection rather than an overlay it's this blows the body apart and because we've already heard that the bodhisattva is not attached which when it's practiced and results from the perfection of wisdom is not limited by time or space. And so this is what the Bodhisattva body of merit is and it's probably the central jewel in this necklace, in this sutra, the body of merit. And as we see in the subsequent chapters, it's how you can tie the whole sutra together is by realizing that the Buddha is telling Subuddhi, if you practice this, you're going to be a Buddha, you're going to get instant Buddhahood because this body of

[62:34]

If there are any comments, we can pick this up again. We're going to have to pick it up when we see Chapter 5, which is about the Buddha's body, specifically about the Buddha's body. But the Buddha, again, introduces the Bodhisattva's body, almost like a carrot. to spur Subuddhi on. Of course, the carrot turns out to be something other than what Subuddhi thinks it is. And again, he likens it to space. There are only three things that the early Buddhists thought were unconditioned dharmas. There's space, nirvana, and the dharma body. And so the Buddha likens this body of merit to space. And so he's egging Subuddhi on, seeing if Subuddhi will get the drift. He doesn't, but we won't find that out until the next episode. I might not be able to articulate this very well, but there's something about then it's relation to time and space, the human tendency to want to measure those.

[63:43]

The Punya when it was first used by Buddhists is used just like we use the term good karma, you do something good you're going to get a good result and so Punya is that which concludes both the seed and the fruit, it's that good result we're going to get and it's that that the measurable amount that we're going to get. But in this sutra, the Buddha contrasts two different kinds of bodies of merit. and the Bodhisattva's body of merit and the Arhant's body or the person who practices material charity and the person who practices spiritual charity and they both get bodies of merit and one is measurable or almost immeasurable and one is infinite you might say. The Buddha is going to use the word infinite casually throughout this sutra But there are two different kinds of bodies of merit. One is sort of measurable, although he's going to try to blow it apart too, but it's still basically measurable. And one is not measurable.

[64:43]

It's like the zero. But maybe I'll leave you with that just for right now. We could maybe take, what, a five-minute break? Stretch your legs. Again, I want to finish eight chapters. I'm determined to finish eight chapters. So we just found out about the body of merit and I wanted to jump into Chapter 5 right away. Today's talk and the other talks we have together, we'll be talking about the body of merit again and again. So don't worry about it. You'll have lots of time to sort of let this sink in and see what it means to you and how we might elucidate it further. So chapter five, what do you think, Subuddhi? So he's just told him he's gonna get this big body of merit, bigger than space.

[65:44]

So what do you think, Subuddhi, can the Tathagata be seen by means of the possession of attributes? Subuddhi replied, no, indeed, Bhagavan, the Tathagata cannot be seen by means of the possession of attributes. And why not? Bhagavan, what the Tathagata says is the possession of attributes is no possession of attributes. Thereupon the Buddha told the venerable Subuddhi, since the possession of attributes is an illusion, Subuddhi, and no possession of attributes is not an illusion, by means of attributes that are no attributes, the Tathagata can indeed be seen. I've often thought that Buddha could sell used cars. It took me a long time for this to sort of sink in. I'll go back to it. That's not an illusion. But anyway, in the previous two chapters, the Buddha told Subuddhi that in order to liberate others, bodhisattvas must do so without being attached to ideas of oneself or others or liberation.

[66:55]

And that as a result of such practice, bodhisattvas produce and obtain a body of merit that has no limits. In this chapter, the Buddha examines the body that has no limits. The Buddha is concerned that bodhisattvas will become attached to this immeasurable body of merit they acquire as a result of their practice, and which is, in fact, the same as the reward body, or sambhogakaya, every Buddha acquires upon entering the bodhisattva path. In his awakening of faith in the Mahayana, Ashvagosha says, What is conceived by bodhisattvas from their very first aspiration to the end of the bodhisattva path is the sambhogakaya, or reward body. This body has countless forms, its forms have countless attributes, its attributes have countless excellent qualities, and the place that accompanies it has countless kinds of adornments. It appears without bounds, inexhaustible and indivisible, and as it responds, it is never lost or destroyed. Such merits as these all result from the influence of the spotless practice of the six perfections.

[68:01]

Such a body, however, is still only... That was the end of the quote. Such a body, however, is still only a manifestation of a Buddha's real body, his Dharmakaya, about which the Buddha now asks Subuddhi. The same question is put to Subuddhi in chapter 20, and again in chapter 26, and yet again in chapter 27. And each time, it is meant to further develop our understanding of the Bodhisattva's practice, as well as the nature of Buddhahood. This is not an idle exercise in semantics, but crucial to understanding what the Buddha acquired as a result of his own practice as a bodhisattva. A number of commentators have therefore suggested that this chapter marks the conclusion of the central teaching of this sutra, and that the remaining chapters simply develop what is stated in these first five. So I'll go back to the beginning. What do you think, Sabuddhi, can the Tathagata be seen by means of the possession of attributes? So, again, he's going from trying to make this transition from body of merit to the Buddha's own body.

[69:06]

But the Buddha is being real ambiguous about what body he's talking about, and intentionally so. He wants to lead Sabuddhi along. and Subuddhi gives him the answer he expects from an arhant, somebody especially who understands the doctrine of emptiness. No, Bhagavan, of course, since he's asking him this question, he's obviously not talking about his physical body, which we call the nirmanakaya, the apparition body of the Buddha. So, Subuddhi says, no, the Tathagata cannot be seen by means of the possession of attributes. Why not, Bhagavan, what the Tathagata says is the possession of attributes is no possession of attributes. Yes. Yes. Well, but it all depends whether the Buddha is talking about his apparition body. The Buddha has these three bodies. The nirmanakaya, which means apparition body or incarnated body, this is the body in which he appears, manifests himself and teaches us.

[70:06]

It has 32 characteristics or attributes. The sambhogakaya, which is the body the Buddha attains upon realizing enlightenment, is invisible, has infinite attributes. And sometimes it has these certain set of 18 avanita attributes. a certain set of attributes that refer to teaching qualities, but normally the Sambhogakaya is discussed as having infinite attributes. So when the 32 attributes are discussed, it usually refers to the apparition body of the Buddha, or how the Buddha would look if he were still alive. That is, if the Buddha's body would suddenly re-manifest itself, we would see this body, this 32-attribute body. So the Buddha is obviously not asking about this body, this apparition body. He's asking him about the reward body, the body that the Buddha acquires upon becoming enlightened.

[71:13]

What is that word? In Sanskrit, it's Sampad, acquisition, that which you acquire and thus possess. And I've sort of struggled trying to come up with a more euphemist way of rendering that term, possession of attributes. But the way the Buddha is looking at it is now he's talking about the body of merit is looking at it from the Bodhisattva's point of view. that is from the beginning of the path. The possession of attributes is looking at the same body from the point of view of the Buddha, who already possesses that body. And that's why he talks about possession of attributes. Of course, he's trying to talk in terms that Subodhi would understand. So the Buddha is not saying that he possesses these attributes. He's simply saying, can I be seen by means of the possession of attributes? And Subodhi, of course, trots out. Yes? Who's seeing these? Sabuddhi.

[72:21]

So he's saying that Sabuddhi can see the Buddha. Well, yes, at the very end he does here. Yeah, exactly. But in other words, the Bodhisattva is the one who can see the Buddha. Yes. Not just anybody. Well, no, everybody can. But, well, anybody who practices this teaching can. And that's why the sabuddhi has this typical answer of the arhan who specializes in the doctrine of emptiness. He says, no, you can't see the Tathagata because we know that X is not X. Whatever you want to trot out here, let's call it the possession of attributes, we know that because you've taught us about everything being impermanent and dependent on everything else, that nothing is by itself real because it has no self-nature of its own. Therefore, these attributes are false. But this is only half of the argument. This is like the master, who is it? Master Qingyuan, the master who was the teacher of Shoto, who founded the Soto Zen sect in China.

[73:22]

Qingyuan, one of his most famous sayings is, when I first started out on the path, I saw mountains. After I progressed a while, I realized that mountains were not mountains. And then after I finally reached the end of the path, I realized that sure there were mountains again. There were just mountains. And so Subuddhi does not see the mountains. He sees mountains as no mountains. He's got that down. But the Buddha wants him to realize that there's a difference between Hinayana emptiness and Mahayana emptiness. And that's why the Buddha never uses the word emptiness in this entire sutra. Because the sutra is about teaching subhuti to give up emptiness. So he doesn't even want to use the word emptiness. Instead he's going to use a logical technique which is equivalent to emptiness but is not the word because he's worried about subhuti. So that's why the Buddha has this response to subhuti.

[74:24]

And this is the most profound teaching of the whole sutra, but Subuddhi doesn't get it. And so that's why the Buddha has to speak the whole rest of the sutra. Because he says, you're right. The possession of attributes is an illusion. You're absolutely right. But by the same token, no possession of attributes is not an illusion. Therefore, you can see the Buddha by means of attributes that are no attributes. As long as you're detached, everything's the Buddha. And you can see the Tathagata, but Chabudi just has a blank reaction to this. Yes? Is the Buddha suggesting that the body of merit gives rise to these no attributes that can be seen? That it's a sort of manifestation? I guess I'm trying to follow along here. conditions on some level?

[75:56]

Well, see what you're doing though, if you're liberating all beings, what you're doing when you're liberating all beings is you're freeing yourself from the idea of beings. The only being who is liberated is your own being idea. And so once that idea no longer, the attachment to it no longer exists, your body of merit is the same as the And that's what the Buddha is trying to get Subuddhi to see. And not just to see the Buddha's body as emptiness. And we're going to see that in the next couple chapters very clearly. But the Buddha at least teaches him this far. He lets Subuddhi betray his attachment to emptiness and then gives him the antidote. But Subuddhi doesn't take it. When it says no attributes can be seen, I mean, we usually think of attributes as being like physical marks, right? Yes. And seeing is visual sight. Yes. Is he taking it more as seeing as in perception or at perception, cognizing rather than... Yeah, I think he's right.

[77:05]

He has to be, because otherwise he wouldn't have talked about If it was just the physical body in front of the Buddha, then it wouldn't be a question worth asking. Of course, we can see the Buddha. The Buddha's apparition body, we can see those attributes. So, when he says, can you see the Tathagata? He's asking Subuddha, can you see the real Tathagata? And really, only a Buddha could see the real Tathagata. Yes, but the Buddha at the very end, of course, is saying, but anything you see is the Tathagata. So seeing is important here and he doesn't want to say you see the Tathagata by blinding yourself or by closing your eyes. And that's why he wants Subuddhi to see that actually by using your eyes you're seeing the Tathagata. You could just use them right. But Subuddhi again doesn't pick up on this. But he still, Subuddhi knows that the Buddha's, Subuddhi's very wise and hears what the Buddha's saying.

[78:06]

And so in this chapter six, he says, upon hearing this, the venerable Sabuni asked the Buddha, Bhagavan, will there be any beings in the future, in the final epoch, in the final period, in the final 500 years of the Dharma ending age, who give rise to the idea that the words of a sutra such as that spoken here are true? And the Buddha said, Sabuddhi, do not ask, will there be any beings in the future, in the final epoch, in the final period, in the final 500 years of the Dharmandean age, who give rise to the idea that the words of a sutra such as that spoken here are true. Surely, Sabuddhi, in the future, in the final epoch, in the final period, in the final 500 years of the Dharmandean age, there will be fearless bodhisattvas who are capable, virtuous, and wise, who give rise to the idea that the words of a sutra such as that spoken here are true. Subhuti asks about beings. I'm gonna just break this up a little bit. Subhuti asks about beings. The Buddha answers about Bodhisattvas. Subhuti does not understand his vow.

[79:07]

He doesn't understand by vowing to liberate all beings, you therefore vow to liberate all beings in the future. And that naturally there will be beings who believe this sutra in the future. In fact, they will be named Subhuti. you will believe this sutra in the future. If you vow to liberate all beings, then your duty is to liberate all beings in the future as well. So, Bodhi does not understand this. That's why the Buddha sort of reprimands Bodhi and says, don't even think about asking that question. Of course, there's going to be these beings, but they're not beings, they're bodhisattvas. Beings, of course, won't. But bodhisattvas will. That is, a bodhisattva who vows to liberate all beings, they have no problem with this because their vow includes all beings. And thus they are capable, virtuous, and wise. There are three little things again. Capable, virtuous, wise. Dwell, practice, control thoughts. Bodhisattvas who know how to dwell are capable, those who know how to practice are virtuous, and those who are wise know how to control their thoughts.

[80:17]

So Bodhisattvas who know how to set forth on the Bodhisattva path will believe what the Buddha says in this sutra. Indeed, Sabuddhi, such fearless Bodhisattvas will have personally honored not just one Buddha, like me, and will have planted good roots before not just one Buddha. Surely, Subuddhi, such fearless Bodhisattvas, and again, this is the power of the Bodhisattva vow. Once you make it, you're stuck. They will have personally honored countless hundreds and thousands of Buddhas, and will have planted good roots before countless hundreds and thousands of Buddhas. In the words of a sutra such as that spoken here, they are sure to gain wholehearted faith. The Tathagata knows them, subhuti, by means of his Buddha knowledge. And of course, the Buddha knows them because they all share the same body. Of course the Buddha knows them. And the Tathagata sees them, just like the Buddha sees his own hand. And he sees them by means of his Buddha vision. And the Tathagata is aware of them. Incidentally, aware in the Sanskrit here, the Buddha Buddhas them, is the Sanskrit.

[81:20]

The Buddha is Buddhism, Subuddhi, for they all produce and receive a measureless, infinite body of merit. And how so? Because, Subuddhi, these fearless bodhisattvas do not form the idea of a self, nor do they form the idea of a being, the idea of a life, or the idea of a soul, which we've heard that before. Now the Buddha goes a little further. Nor, subhuti, do these fearless bodhisattvas form the idea of a dharma. This is the third dimension. Space, time, and mind, or conception. They do not form the idea of a dharma, much less the idea of no dharma. Neither, subhuti, do they form an idea nor no idea. So this is that third dimension that the Buddha is trying to break through. And why not? And the reason why he's doing this is because, subhuti, if these fearless bodhisattvas form the idea of a dharma, the Dharma is the seed, their attachment to a self would occur, as would their attachment to a being, their attachment to a life, and their attachment to a soul. So the way to get rid of these four attachments is, of course, getting rid of the attachment to Dharma.

[82:22]

Likewise, if they formed the idea of no Dharma, their attachment to a self would occur, as would their attachment to a being, their attachment to a life, and their attachment to soul. And why not? Again, the second why not is the same as the first why not. These are sort of two answers to the same question. Because surely, Sabuddhi, fearless bodhisattvas neither cling to a dharma, much less know dharma. This is the meaning behind the Tathagata saying, a dharma teaching is like a raft. If you should let go of dharmas, how much more so No dharmas. This is a pointed reference to you, Sabuddhi. No dharmas. You are attached to emptiness. That's a no dharma. You definitely have to get rid of that, because that leads nowhere. If you're attached to emptiness, you can't go anywhere. You're an arhan. All you do is enter nirvana. You don't help anybody enter nirvana. You don't yourself liberate all beings. And we'll get to that, of course, in the next two chapters.

[83:25]

But the Buddha introduces dharmas here because, of course, dharma is, again, one of these words that is one of these jewels on this necklace. It's anything that is thought to be real. Like when I was on my way here today, I was listening to NPR and the guy was interviewing a mathematician and it just occurred to me that this is actually a modern way of thinking about dharmas. Numbers. Dharmas are numbers. They're not real. There is no such thing as a one. There's not one of anything because no two units are ever alike. We just sort of make that assumption that one pillow is the same as another pillow and therefore we can start adding things together. But there's certainly molecular differences or some differences on some scale. So we have these things we call numbers that are just the 20th century, the 21st century's dharmas.

[84:28]

but they don't work without the concept of zero. That is, numbers are meaningless without no dharmas. And so Sabuddhi is attached to zero. He's attached to no dharmas. But the Buddha says, you've got to get rid of dharmas or stop your attachment to dharmas because they'll give rise to these ideas of self and other. But so will no dharmas too. And no dharmas are even worse than dharmas because they'll lead you nowhere. They are not a raft. At least the raft, at least the dharmas that you use, get you across the river of impermanence. The no-dharmas don't, they don't go anywhere. And so, I have a little comment here. This sutra has just begun and yet Subuddhi is already speaking as if it were over. Being foremost among the Buddha's disciples in his understanding of emptiness and having just heard the Buddha proclaim that emptiness is not the last word, Subuddhi's understanding has been turned inside out. Subuddhi is dumbfounded. What more could the Buddha possibly say?

[85:32]

But the Buddha is just beginning. Still, Subuddhi has resolved to set forth on the Bodhisattva path, and he wonders about beings in the future. How can beings in the future possibly believe a teaching that proclaims appearances to be empty, and then proclaims that by means of such emptiness we perceive what is real? Such a teaching must necessarily be difficult to accept. But while arhans cannot see beyond emptiness, bodhisattvas make use of emptiness to cross the river of impermanence. Bodhisattvas turn no dharmas into dharmas, though without being attached to either dharmas or no dharmas. It turns out that Subuddhi still does not understand the true nature of the bodhisattva's vow to liberate all beings, nor does he understand the nature of a bodhisattva's body of merit. Okay, so that's chapter six. So the Buddha finally introduces dharmas. But, so you said, Subuddhi has already committed himself to the Bodhisattva path. It would seem.

[86:34]

What did he think he was doing? And this is not an abstract question. This is a question for us. You know, we take these vows and yet how do we carry or understand those vows? How did he? Well, since he obviously didn't get it. Well, it turns out Subuddhi did get it. And in this sutra, the perfection of wisdom in 8,000 lines, Subuddhi teaches on behalf of the Buddha. He teaches this very teaching. Because he did get it, but he didn't get it in the sutra. And of course, the Buddha... Exactly. So Bodhi is sacrificing himself. He is giving up his own, offering us his own ignorance. So that's why I say the sutra is like one of these onions. You know, you peel off one offering, you got another offering inside that. So... Sabuddhi is offering himself as the straight man.

[87:36]

Exactly, yeah. He's a straight man in this routine, because there are only two people on stage here. And Subuddhi helps us out here because he does play this role beautifully to the hilt. And actually, had he not played it out, we wouldn't have this sutra. And yet suddenly, I don't know where Subuddhi finally gets it, but he gets it in here for sure. He's already gotten it. when he teaches in this sutra. He sort of gets it in this sutra and you can see that there are things that are going to happen. Subuddhi is going to break into tears and have an emotional breakdown in this sutra because he does begin to get it. But he has to play it out further and so there are still things to learn as he learns the lesson. Let me go into the next chapter because it's very crucial to bring out exactly this point. Once again, the Buddha asked the Venerable Subuddhi, what do you think, Subuddhi? Did the Tathagata realize any such dharma as unexcelled perfect enlightenment?

[88:40]

Does the Tathagata teach any such dharma? The Venerable Subuddhi thereupon answered, Bhagavan, as I understand the meaning of what the Buddha says, the Tathagata did not realize any such dharma as unexcelled perfect enlightenment. Nor does the Tathagata teach such a dharma. And why not? This Dharma realized and taught by the Tathagata is inexplicable and inexpressible. It is neither a Dharma nor no Dharma. And how is that possible? Because sages arise from the uncreated. Well, Subuddhi finally goes beyond emptiness now. He finally doesn't say just that the Dharma realized and taught by the Tathagata is no Dharma. He says it's inexplicable and inexpressible. course, inexplicable refers to the dharma that the Buddha realized. He can't explain it. It's uncaused. Something that is explained has a cause. The dharma that the Buddha realizes that is enlightenment, the Sambhogakaya, is inexplicable and it's inexpressible.

[89:44]

That is, the Nirmanakaya, of course, body, which is both the dharmakaya, which is the teaching itself, and then the teaching as it appears to us, which is the nirmanakaya. When I first started realizing that the sutra was about bodies, I realized that it was like this old carnival shell game. where you've got the Buddha under one of the shells and the shells keep moving around and you don't know which one it is. And so chapters are like that, like this or like that. I have no idea whether the Buddha is under the nirmanakaya or the sambhogakaya or the dharmakaya or what. And all three are sort of here in this chapter. But Subuddhi says, it is neither a dharma nor no dharma. So he's beginning to get it. but then he blows it. He says, how is that possible? Because sages arise from the uncreated. So this chapter is about the wrath the Buddha left behind when he became a Buddha. In the previous chapter, the Buddha told Subuddhi to let go of dharmas once they had served their purpose.

[90:48]

But he was also concerned about Subuddhi's attachment to no dharmas, which was a common problem among those disciples who realized the emptiness of all things, including dharmas. but who could not see beyond emptiness. The Buddha knows that Subuddhi has not yet grasped this teaching, hence he raises the subject of dharmas again, this time focusing on unexcelled perfect enlightenment, the realization of which is experienced by the Buddha's reward body, and the teaching of which is manifested by the Buddha's apparition body. In his response, Subuddhi applies the same logic he applies elsewhere. Enlightenment is a dharma, and all dharmas are empty. Therefore, enlightenment is empty and cannot be realized or taught. This is the Hinayana doctrine of emptiness. Still, Subuddhi sees that there is a problem with his explanation. Hence he adds that while such a dharma is necessarily empty, it's also necessarily not empty. For the Buddha has realized enlightenment and teaches others how to reach enlightenment. To avoid the contradiction implicit in this, Subuddhi takes refuge in the uncreated.

[91:49]

But has Subuddhi reached the land of Buddhas or has he simply changed rafts? in this sutra here, Subuddhi has this wonderful discussion in chapter two of this sutra here, he has this wonderful discussion with Sariputra where they both talk about how the Buddha does not arise, Buddhas do not arise either from the created or the uncreated. He finally knows that the Buddhas don't arise from the created or the uncreated but the Buddha has not quite made him realize this, and so Subuddhi still thinks, well, there's some kind of higher emptiness. There's some kind of higher emptiness where the Buddhas come from, and he calls it the uncreated, asamskrita. And again, the Buddhists recognize three asamskrita dharmas. There's a special dharma. There are three of them. There's space, there's nirvana, and there's the Buddha's dharma body. And so, Subuddhi says, well, okay, the Buddha doesn't come from emptiness, all right, he comes from these asamskrita dharmas, the uncreated dharmas.

[92:55]

And the Buddha, in the next chapter, explains why this is not true and gives him the Buddha's vision, or version of this, where Buddha's come from. Any questions on this chapter, or should I go right into the next one? I'm on a roll, I'll just go with it. Okay, because now that we know that sages don't come from the uncreated, you have to take this on faith right now, but believe it or not, Subuddhi does realize it eventually. The Buddha said, Sabuddhi, what do you think? So again, he knows Sabuddhi has reached a certain point at which he just can't get beyond emptiness or the uncreated, which is just a different version of emptiness. So he asked him, what do you think then? If some good son or daughter filled the billion worlds of this universe with the seven jewels and gave them all as a gift to the Tathagatas, the Arhats, the fully enlightened ones, with a body of merit, produced as a result by this good son or daughter be great?" So he's trying to, again, Subuddhi just says, sages arise from the uncreated.

[94:02]

So, well, the Buddha says, well, let's talk about sages then. Let's talk about this body of merit. Subuddhi answers, oh, that body would be great, Bhagavan. Such a body of merit produced as a result by that good son or daughter would be great, Sugata. But Subuddhi is very clever and is not about to be tricked by the Buddha. And he says, how so, Bhagavan? Whatever is said by the Tathagata to be a body of merit is said by the Tathagata to be no body, which is the doctrine of emptiness. But now he gets the Buddha's technique. Thus does the Tathagata speak of a body of merit as a body of merit. Thus the mountains that are no mountains are mountains. We can talk about them as mountains. So Subuddhi thinks he's out of the woods, because he's sort of repeating the Buddha's way of talking about things. Whereas the Buddha denies things, but then uses dharmas, uses these no dharmas as dharmas. But the Buddha's not about to let him off the hook, and he says, Subuddhi, if instead of filling the billion worlds, and of course that's because the Buddha's comparing, again, these two kinds of bodies of merit here.

[95:11]

He's just mentioned this incredible body of merit. where somebody fills the world, the universe, the whole universe, all billion worlds, with the seven jewels. So the biggest object of imaginable size with the most valuable objects, the seven jewels, which of course represent the seven stars in the Big Dipper. The ancient Indians had this symbol of the big dipper. If you look at the big dipper and use the star at the base of the bowl of the big dipper, right below the handle, if you use that as the base and you turn the big dipper and look at it in four different seasons of the year at the same time at night, you will see the swastika. and the ancient Indian symbol of the infinite, of infinite change. Everything revolves around the swastika and around the seven stars of the Big Dipper.

[96:13]

And so when the Indians started using magic numbers, well seven was an immediate choice. And so seven jewels represented the 77 stars in the Big Dipper. And so these are the most valuable objects. If you could actually grab those stars, turn them into jewels, and then fill the universe with them, you're going to get incredible merit, again, sacrifice, offering. The Buddha said, subhuti, if instead of filling the billion worlds of this universe with the seven jewels and giving them as a gift to the Tathagatas, the Arhats, the fully enlightened ones, this good son or daughter understood but one four-line gatha of this Dharma teaching and made it known and explained it in detail to others, the body of merit produced as a result would be immeasurably, infinitely greater. This is incredible. What could be greater than infinite? In short, what could be greater than zero? That's what the Buddha is saying here, because the subuddhi has just said, well, this body that is infinite is no body.

[97:15]

So it is no body. The body of merit, it's true, it's no body. And the Buddha says this body, the second body of merit, is greater than that no body. It's greater than no body, because it's a dharma that can be used. It's a Buddhadharma. And how so, Sabuddhi? From this teaching, from this, is born the unexcelled perfect enlightenment of Tathagata's arhans and fully enlightened ones. That is, Buddhas and their teaching don't come from the uncreated, Sabuddhi. They come from a dharma. And from this are born Buddhas and Bhagavans. And how so? Buddhadharmasabuddhi. Buddhadharmas are spoken of by the Tathagatas as no Buddhadharmas. Thus are they called Buddhadharmas. And I'll mention, I'll go over my little quote, my little thing here, and then we can just talk about all this. In the last chapter, that is, I guess, chapter 7, we watch Sabuddhi penetrate the emptiness of the Buddha's realization of enlightenment and teaching of enlightenment and trace all Buddhas back to the uncreated. The Buddha now brings the fully enlightened ones back from space.

[98:20]

The Buddha does not deny that his own realization of enlightenment and teaching of enlightenment have no self-nature and are not in themselves real. But without dharmas of some kind, our progress on the path to liberation becomes impossible. In fact, liberation loses its meaning. Thus, the Buddha refuses to let subuddhi cling to emptiness and turns his disciples' attention from the uncreated back to this teaching. He tells subuddhi that such dharmas as enlightenment and the bodies acquired by bodhisattvas and buddhas have another source beyond the uncreated, namely the womb of the prajnaparamita, which is the Buddha's true body. It is prajna that gives rise to the dharmas of buddhas, the rafts by means of which bodhisattvas reach buddhahood. and by means of which we are all liberated. As in chapter four, the Buddha once again focuses on our punya skanda, our body of merit. This body is the projection of all our selfless deeds. But if our selfless deeds are limited, our body of merit will necessarily be limited.

[99:23]

The Buddha wants us to trade this limited body of merit for the unlimited body produced and obtained from the practice of this teaching. The word he uses here is prasannuyat, which means to give birth, to bear fruit. What gives birth to this infinite body of merit, this body shared by all Buddhas, is not the uncreated, but prajna, our learning of it, our practice of it, and our transmission of it to others. Thus, Buddhadharmas may be no dharmas, but they are indeed Buddhadharmas. And so the Buddha focuses on this four-line gatha, if you just understand one four-line gatha of this teaching. And of course, commentators have wondered, which four-line gatha? Because of course, why do we have to read the whole sutra? If we could just figure out which four-line gatha, then... And believe it or not, Vasubandhu, the Indian pundit, Sangha's brother, actually tells us that he went to heaven once and met Maitreya, the next Buddha, in Tushita Heaven, and asked him, which four-lined gatha did the Buddha mean?

[100:34]

and Maitreya told Vasubandhu and Vasubandhu told the Sangha and then it has been transmitted down to the Chinese masters and they've recorded it on steelies, on stone steelies and they said that the gatha that he had in mind was this no idea of self, no idea of being, no idea of life and no idea of soul. There are other commentators who think it's the very last gatha in the whole sutra where the buddha tells the buddhi and how should you explain this sutra to others by saying all created things are are an illusion. And so there are people who like that four-line gatha. But the fact is, the word gatha and the adjective four-line that went with it, in ancient Indian literature, the four-line gatha was simply the shortest possible unit of measurement.

[101:37]

So it's like saying the smallest bit. If you take even the smallest bit of this sutra and just understand the smallest piece of this sutra or Vasubandhu's four-line gatha or the gatha at the end of the sutra and explain it to others then of course you get this body of merit that is in fact the Buddha's body because all bodies, all Buddhas come from this sutra, this teaching and so the sutra is the body of the And it's also called the Mother of Buddhas. Yes, uh-huh. Yeah, the sutra is quite an amazing sutra. Yes? I think at the end of the class we should transfer this merit. Yes, well, it's transfer... Transfer merit formally. Well, we could at... At mealtime? Well, we could after, when we reach the final end of the chapter 32, when we reach the final attribute of the Buddha's body.

[102:39]

Well, but we could, anyway, yes. Well, here, there's also a, there's some values being communicated, I would think. their material, even though they're metaphorical, as apart from the offering of the teachings, which is a higher offering. Yes. But where you began was talking about the offering of body. Yes. Is it, are you going to tie this back in? just another version of that same offering because Purusha just offers all that he has which is his body because at the beginning of the universe there was just Purusha and so Purusha offers all that he has he offers his body and creates the world out of it. and the fact is this the smallest gata is the dharmakaya is the teaching is the dharmakaya is the body of the buddha so we offer the body of the buddha the body of christ the body of the buddha you can transmit it to others and so that's why the teaching takes the place of the body and every every chapter in this sutra has a

[104:27]

this and again all 32 chapters represent the 32 attributes of the Buddha and each of these chapters is a different offering, but definitely the Buddha includes material offerings. To contrast, the biggest material offering possible in the universe, basically to offer the whole universe is not so good as offering just the smallest piece of this You made reference at the beginning about how the way you read the sutra or see the sutra as a whole is kind of a story about a particular encounter between Samuddhi and the Buddha. And it occurs to me that a lot of the way I think about sutras Well, this could be, you could take this as a stage.

[105:37]

We thought of it as a straight, somebody's the straight man. And so these two guys are up on stage. We don't notice anybody else. Almost in all other sutras, there's usually at least a few bodhisattvas or a few disciples are mentioned at the beginning of the sutra. But in this one, not a single person is mentioned. It's like waiting for Godot. There's just these two people come on stage. The Heart Sutra is also staged in the longer version. That's true. And the question and so forth, so this reminds me. But in the Heart Sutra it's sort of almost otherworldly, the lights radiate from the Buddha's brow, the earth shakes and all kinds of things like this. This is one of the few Mahayana sutras where nothing happens That's all that happens. And from that, from that simple little gesture, which is he's offering his example, and then the people in town offer food.

[106:42]

And so everybody's offering something in the sutra. Again, it's just all about offerings. That's why I see all these little jewels on this necklace all having to do with the body that is offered, whether it's a ball of rice, or the dharma teaching, the little gata, the seven jewels, the self, the being. They're all dharmas. They're all dharmas. And we're not attached to any of the dharmas. That's the key to the sutra. But we're not going to realize why, really, until chapter 28, when the Buddha introduces this concept of birthlessness. Would that be the thought that the Buddha had in front of him? his first approach? Well that's a good question and you're going to have to answer that one yourself. I don't know. I'd like to think of it as just he's just had that ball of rice and said that was a good ball of rice and by my God I just ate the universe and just the resonance of that for the Buddha. I don't know what a Buddha thinks but I would imagine that the ball of rice just set the stage for him that he was going to talk about the

[107:51]

in the Sutra, and that's what he proceeds to do, talk of all kinds of entities and our attachment to them and how to liberate, how to let go of them. But in any case, this Sutra is, like I say, it makes sense and is a coherent whole if you take this idea that it is a series of offerings of body, of body, what the body you end up with, your immediate body, whether it's a physical body or a body of jewels, or a self, a being, a life, a soul, what have you. Or your dharmapaya, your sambhogakaya, your reward body, your body of merit. All these are just bodies, and the Buddha's just trying to teach subhuti to let go of this body, but you have to have a body to teach. You have to have this gata. You have to have something to teach others. Otherwise, nobody's liberated. I was wondering, before you end, if you could mention your schedule over at City Center next week. after you'll be back here.

[108:58]

Right, well I'm not sure exactly how I'll do this because I wanted to have several talks here in September because you're going to have a retreat in October. And I figured it would take about four talks to do this. And it just happened that I'd already made a commitment to teach at the Page Street Center next weekend on Saturday and Sunday. And so what I plan to do is to teach all 32 chapters in two sessions next weekend at the Page Street Center. And so what I'm going to do is from 2 to 5 on Saturday, I'm going to teach 1 through 16. So from 2 to 3.30, I'll be repeating 1 through 8. and then from 3.30 to 5.00 I'll be hopefully going over 8.00 through 16.00 and the following morning on Sunday morning I'll be doing I think 9.30 to 12.00 hopefully 17.00 to 32.00. These are just projected Wishes.

[109:58]

I don't know whether I'll actually pull this off or not. And I will try to make a note to myself of how many of you show up next Saturday. And if not many people do, then what I'll try to do is repeat material in a more cursory fashion here the following Saturday, which would be the 23rd. And maybe on the 23rd and the 30th, we'll just continue back up with nine. But if enough people show up, then I'll start with 17 on the 23rd. Of course, If I only have two more sessions here and we have, what, 24 more chapters, I'll have to be a little brief with some of them. But toward the end, the last dozen or so chapters are very brief. They're like very short, just a few sentences. And so maybe once we get rolling, we can really, maybe two more sessions might be enough.

[110:59]

I've never done this, so this is an experiment. We're scheduled now for the 23rd and the 30th. Yes, 23rd and 30th, same time, same place. If you would like to, you're welcome to join us over at the Page Street Center. Of course, if you paid for this class, your tuition or whatever it is would include that class on Saturday at the Page Street Center. There will be room, and there's no way of knowing how many people will show up, so I'll just tell Michael Wenger just to be prepared to switch venues. I think they have a smaller classroom, and then there's always the dining room, too. Well, speaking of offering, I did speak to Michael about the logistics of all this, and he did suggest something about an offering maybe of $10 for that one session over at Pastry when I spoke to him in planning this, so it might not be Oh, okay. I didn't know that.

[112:00]

I see that I'm speaking out of turn then. I'm sorry. Well, that's just so for people who do go over there just to be open to the possibility that they will be perhaps an offering. Okay. for that. Okay, but whether you show up or not, what I'll do is I'll ask when I come back on the 23rd how many people showed up and I'll probably recognize your faces at the Page Street Center so I'll have an idea myself and then we'll just pick it up wherever we need to. Certainly the last dozen or so chapters we can go through pretty quick. But a lot of people divide the sutra in half at the end of chapter 16, as commentators do. So the next eight chapters are really important. And if not enough people show up, I definitely will go over them, like I have today gone over the first eight. You could get a sense of how many people think they could come next Saturday? Oh, yeah, how many people think they could come next Saturday to San Francisco Page Street Center?

[113:05]

Not too many, not too many. Okay, well, given that scenario then, why don't I just assume then that on the 23rd we'll begin with Chapter 9?

[113:16]

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