Our discussion of the five skandhas barely got started to the extent that it's possible to discuss these things. But one of the things I suggested, did you get your shopping done? clouds are cooperating so far and one of the things I suggested is that you notice what appeared to you in some vividness this is nothing about understanding the five scandals or whatever but just is there some aspect that stayed with you stuck with you And if so, I'd like to hear it. And if you have nothing to say, make something up.

[01:02]

Okay. I go back up to my room. Yes, I know. Some years ago I discovered something which helps me explore the five skandhas.

[02:09]

Early on in my life I discovered this technique to write with my not-dominant hand. In my case, it's the left hand, the hand that's not practiced. In my case, it's the left hand, the hand that's not practiced. In my case, it's the left hand, the hand that's not practiced. And for many years I wrote a little diary, and I wrote it with the non-dominant hand, describing or writing down vivid experiences of sense, sense experience,

[03:12]

Within the individual sense fields. Do you have a right-handed diary too? No. Just a left-handed diary. And these were only some words that just came up. And it was very astonishing what came up. What came up? Moments of experience in a great depth, in a sense, moments that I couldn't bring into consciousness. But when you started to write with your left hand, you could bring them more into your consciousness.

[04:32]

And why do you connect that with the five skandhas? Actually, because with consciousness I then can look into the depth of the momentous experience. So you're equating seeing beyond consciousness with the five standards. Not going beyond consciousness, but looking into the moments of sensual experience.

[05:46]

You had an expression at one point, Roshi, where you said the form and feeling Skanda is encountering the world in a kind of raw way. And when I start writing with this left hand, I do A for eye, O for ear, N for nose, for the senses, and then I just write two or three words that come to mind. And when I start writing, I write A for eye, and O for ear, and N for nose, and then just two or three words, whatever came up within that sense. Okay. Interesting. And as fast as possible. Well, have you published these? It might make an interesting drawing. That's interesting. I never thought of doing that. When I was 21 or so, at some point,

[07:15]

I'm very right-handed. I'm embarrassingly right-handed. My left arm is almost incompetent. It might as well just hang there. But I do believe in doing things with two hands. Yeah, so I do the mouse with the left hand and the keyboard with the right hand. Because I want a two-handed relationship to the computer. When everybody comes to fix my computer or use my computer, they move the mouse pad over. But anyway, when I was 21 or something like that, I was the office boy. 21? I was the office boy in Grove Press, a publisher. Yeah, and I tried writing with my left hand for about a year.

[08:44]

But I never thought of using it to explore the five standards. It's also very interesting to write down questions with the right hand and answer them From consciousness writing down questions. I've never tried that either. And answering them from the left hand without thinking. This is great. And so I will ask myself questions like, what is the color, perhaps I can say that, or something, what is the color of the ear percept?

[09:47]

And then I'll try to answer it with my left hand. I won't even be able to read what I write, but I'll try. Maybe you can read it with your left eye. Yes, Oveja. So this experience that you talked about where you called the car, at the side of the road, and I said, well, I really would like to understand what the five skandhas are.

[10:59]

This was a turning point in my practice. Oh. Because it was so important for you that you stopped the car. And you tried to, again, try to explain this to me. And it also was a turning point because at that time, It was also that I presented my not understanding, my insufficient understanding to you. We are all conditioned in a way that we try to present our understanding. And what resulted was this clear feeling

[12:09]

that I got a little way ahead with my understanding and this feeling never left me. And the feeling I got was that if I go on in that way, Buddhism is really something that I can make my own. and which can be Penetrate. And the courage of presenting not understanding the ways I do not understand. And also to develop the ways from the point where I do not understand. So this was really a deep experience.

[13:41]

And the five skandhas now have become like old friends for me and I am just yet when I encounter them again. Did you feel that there was some your old friend had gotten older yesterday or this morning, or your old friend is doing something different? With big joy, I experienced that the five skandhas is something that can be unpacked even further. Wait till tomorrow. I'm just kidding.

[14:47]

And that there is a dynamic within it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I remember very particularly because I, one, I really like to know when someone doesn't understand. And I could say, I only learn when I don't understand. I spoke to somebody recently who's a super coder. I mean, he's... can take over a whole company and do their coding for them at that level. And I recognized that he was trying to understand Buddhism the way he understands coding. As a skill, he'd learn how to do.

[16:00]

But he wasn't applying it to some very obvious problems he has. And I had to say, Buddhism really shows itself to you when you apply it to the simplest, basic problem you have. If something bothers you sometimes, or something annoys you, or some person annoys you, that's where you put your practice. So when you mentioned that to me as we were driving, were we in the Volvo? Do you still have that Volvo? Yeah. And I remember feeling, Jesus is great, you're right, it is a problem.

[17:27]

I don't know how to answer your question. Yeah, and so that's why I pulled over, because I had to... Give it some presentness and presentness with you. Also deswegen bin ich zur Seite gefahren, weil ich wollte dem ein Gegenwärtigsein zur Verfügung stellen, ein Gegenwärtigsein mit dir zusammen. And I thought too, if this isn't understandable even to my translator, I better quit. Und ich habe mir auch gedacht, oh, wenn das nicht einmal meine Übersetzerin versteht, dann höre ich wohl am besten auf. Yeah, so I made an effort to... And you helped me understand it. One second. Norman Fisher, who's a pretty well-known teacher now in America. I don't know if he comes to Europe. And he was one of my students many years ago who had a real experiential grasp of practice.

[18:49]

And he said to me once, is this all come down to harmony? Does the practice all come down to finding a way to be in harmony? And that was a question that bothered me too. Because I knew that built into what I was saying is an implied value given to harmony. And And I realized that it was implied in the way I was teaching, but that I didn't quite feel comfortable with that.

[20:09]

And Norman asked me that in Doksan and Gringo, I don't know, something like the 70s, early 70s. And it's always kind of bothered me that I couldn't give him a satisfactory response. And I see Norman every now and then, and we've talked together sometimes, but every time I see his name, I get things saying, Norman Fisher is teaching something. I think, oh, I didn't answer his question. And really, it was only about two weeks ago I realized how to answer his question. And he stayed with me all this time. But to answer his question took a real shift in my apprehension of certain things.

[21:27]

So when you asked me that too, I realized you took practice seriously with that. Look at this. It makes a difference. You were just going to say something. Don't ask me something that takes 40 years for me to ask. I can't. Maybe later. Go ahead. You asked about our experience with the five skandhas, what came alive. So you asked us what kind of vivid experience we had concerning the five skandhas. I had a very vivid experience during the last seminar. Erich and I slept upstairs in the room.

[22:29]

Erich and I, we slept in this upstairs room. Guni's room. Guni and Walter's room. Well, it was for a long time, yeah. I thought you and Guni, I looked, opened the door, and I said, that doesn't look like Guni. On Saturday morning I woke up and I looked in that direction and there is this window that is like this. That is actually the roof. And I looked at the window, and it was in this transition from sleep to awake, and I didn't know where I was. And I looked at this window, I saw this window, there was the seeing of this window, and I didn't know at all where I am.

[23:46]

We were in Cooney's room. I know. I didn't know where I was. No idea. And there was this bodily feeling of being shattered because there was nothing to take hold of. And I looked there and felt something in my body, like an inner earthquake, because I didn't know where to stop. Das hat damit zu tun, dass ich vorher am Johanneshof war und eben dort ein anderes Zimmer ist und zu Hause natürlich auch ein anderes Zimmer ist. So that has to do because before I was at Johanneshof and there is another room and at home of course there is another room. I know this experience. Aber die Erfahrung war, Sometimes the experience was there was no consciousness that could deal with the situation and nothing to, um, yeah, consciousness couldn't find any hold on the situation.

[25:04]

I understand. Good. It is true, and you can expect it if you meditate regularly, that somehow the ground of consciousness, the rug of consciousness, is pulled up under your feet. Yeah, and it can happen big time or it can happen in increments. And you have to find a new way to organize your experience that isn't the usual consciousness or the usual self of the usual consciousness. And these are, it said, really, at least incremental enlightening experiences. Yes, behind you. In the mood, in today morning's mood and yesterday's mood, I took a walk through the woods today.

[26:35]

And I tried not naming and it was just automatically it was there. And on the one hand, this was completely beautiful. I was lucky that I had to do a lot with very small infants in my life.

[27:55]

And suddenly in the woods there was this feeling that in that way this infant must have felt like. And suddenly there was a big feeling of insecurity. And I, as a grown-up, feel like that. Well, actually, at my age, this should only be available to people who are a little bit crazy. So there was a strong feeling of insecurity. Well, if you're going to continue practicing, please get used to feelings of insecurity without worrying about whether you're a baby.

[29:16]

Because if you're going to, in practice, make a shift, the first openings of such experiences are insecurity. Because it's not familiar. And it helps to have some inner stillness which says, well, okay, fine. I'm not ready yet.

[30:42]

Are you taking a picture, meander machine? There's something else I'd like to say, something that I can't quite figure out how to say it right now, but I will say in general. The best way to get, a useful way at least, to get to the experience of noticing things before their name is actually to name them. So a very basic practice is to name everything you see. So every appearance like bell, water, blue, translator, blue, blue 51, Because naming cuts off associations.

[31:46]

So by just naming, you cut off associations, and then the experience of just naming can be removed. So we're talking about the craft and crafts of practice. Yeah, and so let me say that probably the practice of naming is a good practice for about three quarters of a year. It doesn't mean you can't start today.

[32:47]

And it's fruitful right from the beginning, I have found. But to really get deeply into the habit of just naming, You can keep coming back to it for a long time. It's a very basic also Theravada practice. And by the way, if you take walks in the woods, be aware there's ticks around here. Nicole got her first tick bite in her whole life. She thinks, sitting out here on the bed. And by the time she got it, discovered it, it was well embedded, and she had to get Niko Aldag, who's a doctor, to come up in the evening and get it out.

[34:09]

And this is also a Borrelia area. Yes, Mike. Would you share the harmony question answer with us? Yes, I understand. I don't know. It's whether... I may be able to, and in some ways I've already responded to it, but I may be able to give it some vividness tomorrow. We'll see. I mentioned it because I thought it's also something I could wend my way toward.

[35:11]

Wind? Wind is to follow a path as it wanders and winds. Okay. Yeah, and these things, it's really helpful to me if I'm going to find ways to speak about things, to hear you speak. So you'll get better talks from me if you talk. This is true, but I'm not threatening you. Or am I threatening you? Frau Rivolo, Frau Dr. Rivolo, I would like to share something to what you said about the perspective of the child.

[36:43]

Recently I was in Amsterdam in the Rijksmuseum and there is a collection of East Asian art. And there was a statue of Shiva, Uma, and the child, Skanda. My question would be whether this child, Skanda, in mythology has something to do with this way of perceiving. I don't think so. I mean, not if the statue, if it was accompanied with Shiva and Huma and so forth. Because teaching the five Skandas is simply not in Hinduism.

[37:52]

Yeah, so the word Skanda just means aggregate. So it means aggregate. So it's probably used in some kind of way of something that accumulates or adds up, which is an aggregate. The word Skanda, I think, is Sanskrit. OK. Well, it could be, but it's just a word.

[38:57]

Also, you know, practice opens one up to feelings that one's had, experiences one's had as a child, and you decontextualize them as you grow up. What I mean, you contextualize them in a way you don't experience them, as you know, as you're older. Sorry, I don't... Yeah, I used the word, so it could be used mean either. For example, the kind of time you have as a child, where a month is a year, that kind of time is accessible to you through practice.

[40:00]

Because we contextualize ourselves in a certain way, and we could say that practice decontextualizes consciousness. It's not unimportant that the Diamond Sutra says the consciousness Bodhisattva has no concept or experience of a lifespan. It is not unimportant that the Diamond Sutra says the Bodhisattva has no experience of a lifespan. No experience and no concept. Concept of a lifespan. So a definition of the Bodhisattva or a definition of you when you're functioning in the bodhisattva modality is when you have no comparisons at all going on, including comparisons which make you feel you have a lifespan.

[41:12]

But that also means to be open to the entirety of your lifespan. Okay. I think it's time for a break. Do I have some agreement? He says no. But I can't always agree with you. What happened to our flowers?

[42:16]

They all fell apart over there, huh? They were moved. I can see. But those are nice. Yeah. Yeah. You would love them. Yeah. Not me. Take care. When I was a kid, people asked me, what do you want to be when you grow up? And I thought about it. I want to have fresh flowers around every day. Really? That's what I said. To be a lawyer? No, I just want a fresh flower.

[42:51]

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