I know it's an old question, but... A little by little, you can talk, or sometimes, it depends on the person. I think it's not necessary to explain. You just give a suggestion, sit down with it, you know, sit down just like I know. Sit down in your room after hard work, daytime, just like that. Then it's pretty good. It's not necessary to understand the meaning of sitting, etc. Okay. But still, again, there are other people who have really great breakthroughs, and they don't seem to have practiced like this. How do you understand that kind of experience? It's certainly not very common, but it seems to happen.

[01:06]

You mean, how did they understand? You know, like Wittgenstein, who was a philosopher, he seemed to have really understood greatly. But how did he reach that point? Well, you can talk about that in practice in terms of A and B world. Okay? Do you think... It's helpful for the people. Do you think no one can really see the world unless they've been there? Yes. Strongly, I can say no one knows. But it's possible to reach the sea. But usually, we don't reach the sea because we are always hanging around the sea. That's it. That's why in Nostalgia Zen, it's mentioned, we attain enlightenment by hard practice,

[02:10]

and then we believe we attain enlightenment, but it is not real enlightenment. We are just hanging around. Anyway, enlightenment, real enlightenment. That's it. That is very common. So are you saying that the people who seem enlightened, they are not really enlightened? Huh? So are you saying that some of the people who seem to be enlightened are really not enlightened? It seems they seem to attain enlightenment. Yes. But it's pretty cross. But they are hanging around. But it's better than nothing. So we have to still... And we are still embraced by kindness of the mountains and rivers. So that's why we have to walk together anyway. Can you tell me about Kachigaburi? Wherever they are. Okay. Those are just different degrees of...

[03:11]

Well, Kachigaburi is self-realized. Oh, I see. Kachigaburi seems to be... Behold. Behold. You see what they can see, yes. Hanging around. Hanging around. When you talk about the kindness of the mountains and rivers, is that the same as compassion? You think so? No? Sure.

[04:15]

Guru wants to meet... He said, I am enlightened along with all sentient beings. With all sentient beings, yes. That's why we can hang around, see. Even though you cannot be exactly, you know, practiced in the sea world, you can still hang around the sea. Hanging around means that you are still without realization, very deep realization. You are there in the sea world, but still hanging around means you don't realize exactly. But if you are, anyway,

[05:31]

in the compassion of the mountains and rivers, all sentient beings like that, so-called sea world, we have to be there, we have to realize it, we have to live up to it, and we have to translate it. This is a person who carried the Dharma. That's it. ...about the translation. I think, maybe not, but this is what would seem better for me in the...

[06:34]

This illumination is to clarify what that's meant to be. Thank you. Thank you. I guess one other thing about Joginder relating this whole poem to one's deep pain. You may have said this the first day, I'm looking at you, but, who was Joginder?

[07:37]

Why was it one deep poem? Why did that, in writing, stand out for Joginder? I don't know. Yeah. Joginder relating this to one's deep pain. What was it about one's deep pain that attracted Joginder so much to do one's deep writing? When she, Zen Master, mentions the oneness, emphasizes the oneness of Zazen and person. Zazen and Buddha Zazen. Buddha Zazen. Okay. But, in those days, most people, they understand Zazen separate from Buddha. So, by Zazen, that means

[08:40]

to use Zazen as a means. By Zazen, we can become Buddha. Like this. But, when she, Zen Master, mentions Zazen is Buddha. Simultaneously Buddha. That is real peaceful way. Very peaceful way. We have to understand that one through and through. That is what Joginder constantly mentions. Zazen is Buddha. Buddha is Zazen. Mountains and rivers are you. Universe is you. You are universe. The self is the whole universe. He constantly mentions this. Because this is the most peaceful way of life. But, if you use Zazen as a means to realize the universe, the universe which is one with you,

[09:41]

at that time it is dualistic. So, naturally you use the universe as a means to end. You use yourself as a means to reach the universe. Always like this. So, there is a gap. So, if there is some gap, very naturally you create even a slight sense of aggression, or struggle, and struggling, and fighting, and something like that. It is not peaceful. Go ahead. Zazen. Zazen.

[10:55]

Zazen.

[10:55]

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