The Master Waihai of Baijang gives his informal preaching. Generally present there is an old man. The old man always listens to Dharma along the ascent. And when the people in the assembly retire, the old man also retires. Then suddenly, he will not retire. The master eventually asks him, what person is this standing before me? I am not a person.

[01:04]

In the past age of Kashyapa Buddha, I used to preside on this mountain. Once a student asked me to be a people in the state of great practice, fall into cause and effect or not?" I answered, They did not fall into cause and effect. Since then I have fallen into a wild fox body for five hundred lives. Now I tell you, Master, for me some caring words. I long to be rid of the body of a wild fox.

[02:14]

By Zhang Weihai. No, no, the old man cast. Do even people in the state of great practice fall into cause and effect? Why not? Master Baijong says. Not unclear about cause and effect. not blind to cause and effect. Do even people in the state of great practice fall into cause and effect or not? You're not unclear about cause and effect.

[03:19]

Arjuna says, the old man under these workers realizes great realization. He does prostrations and said, I am already rid of the body of the wild fox. I would like to remain on the mountain behind this temple. Dare I ask the master to perform for me the rites for a deceased monk? The Master orders the Eno to strike the Sui Chin and tell the Ascended. After the meal, we will set off, we will seal the deceased monk."

[04:22]

All the monks discussed this, saying, in the whole Sangha, Everyone's well. There is no sick person in Nirvana Hall, in the inferno. What's the reason for this? After the meal, the master simply leads the monks to the foot of a rock on the mountain behind the temple. and taking out a dead fox with the staff. They then cremated according to the formal method for months. In the evening, a master preaches in the hall and discusses the preceding episode. Wang Bo then asks, The man in the past answered mistakenly with words of returning words and fell into the body of a wild fox for five hundred lives.

[05:45]

If he had gone on without making a mistake, what would have become of him? Bajang said, come up here, I'll tell you. Wang Bo finally steps up to the master and gives him a slap. The master claps and says, you have expressed that foreigners' beard is red. But it's also a fact that a red fairy is a poem. So you've already heard that part of the view is that karma has effects.

[08:28]

Karma is a cause which has effects. And wrong view is that karma He's without complex. I think you've heard that. You've also heard that accepting the teaching, and the teaching that actions have consequence, and getting close to all actions, clarifies that all things are empty.

[09:45]

And that would include cause and effect. You may have also heard that nirvana is peace, nirvana is freedom, and that it is a freedom that is celebrated in the midst of cause and effect. It is a freedom for a right view. It is realized through deep conviction in cause and effect.

[10:59]

So, in a sense, if someone has great practice, a great practice of observing cause and effect and understanding cause and effect, then one might say, well, they don't fall into cause and effect. They're living in cause and effect, but they don't fall into it. They are free of cause and effect by the great practice by which they see clearly how cause and effect works.

[12:16]

Part of the problem of this story is that not falling into cause and effect could be understood as a person in great practice is no longer compulsive, is no longer living in cause and falling into cause and effect through blindness, but willingly lives in it with clarity. So then someone might say, they do not fall into cause and effect. I heard a story that Kala Rinpoche was visiting a Zen center and someone asked him if a person of great practice falls into cause and effect or not. And he said, they do not fall into cause and effect.

[13:26]

But I would guess he meant they are not trapped in causal effect, but live there in peace and freedom because of their deep devotion to the teachings of cosmic causal effect. In the lineage leading to the founding of this temple, coming through Dogen, we would find gifted by a founder in Japan whose understanding of this story

[14:53]

varied quite a bit throughout his life. And now it is his view varied throughout his life, but many people in the tradition of this story which deals with this story, have a wide variety of opinions. So they have this field of different opinions. You might say a field on diversity, culturalism related to this story. Starting at the end of Dogi's life, the way he saw this story was kind of simple and literal.

[16:21]

And so he wrote a classical called Great Practice referring to the story of our personal great practice. That's the earlier fascicle. Excuse me. The earlier fascicle is called great practice. The later fascicle is called deep faith in cause and effect, jinshin inga. He tells the story, which I just read to you, And then he says, not blind is deep faith in cause and effect. The way he sees the story is that when one says, not blind or not unclear about causing effect, he's saying, deep faith in causing effect.

[17:50]

A Turning Word not blind to cause and effect. To my anger is deep faith in cause and effect. as a result of which the one who hears this dharma is free of states of war. So I might have said that deep faith in cause and effect may come to fruit.

[19:37]

The activity, the action of deep faith in cause and effect might come to fruit as not being blind to cause and effect. then based on deep faith in cause and effect. Not being blind to cause and effect, perhaps there will be no falling into cause and effect. So here Dogen says that to believe in the law of cause and effect To believe that the law of cause and effect cannot be set aside is deep faith in cause and effect.

[20:48]

To believe that cause and effect cannot be set aside is deep faith in cause and effect. By hearing this teaching, and settling into it deeply, even those in states of woe will be saved. And then, And then Dogen turns to the first turning point. So, the former Vajrayana, when asked, does a person of great practice fall into cause and effect enough, said, they do not fall into cause and effect.

[21:54]

Do not fall into cause and effect. And Dogen says, that statement is just the negation of cause and effect. as a result of which those in the gate fall into states of war. The words said basically the same thing. Those who have wrong view, the view that those who negate cause and effect, that negating is the most harmful single factor. So this is the statement that negation of cause and effect results

[22:59]

He is very much in accord with the Buddhist only teaching. And though in his last teaching, in Buddha's first teaching, very much in accord. The difficult point is that he equates the statement, do not follow the cosmic direction, When asked do people who have great practice fall into cause and effect, people who recycle the Buddha would say, no, they don't. There's no reason to negate cause and effect, to just say people of great practice can be free of cause and effect, in cause and effect. But the ancestor, Dolin, living Somehow he was made into a person that needed to say, that did say, that quotes not falling into cause and effect is negation of cause and effect.

[24:18]

In history, he said that, he wrote that. Just like Iman Shah, living in India when he did, had some feeling, apparently, that women should not be allowed into the Sangha. The situation he was in, he felt like women came and said they wanted to be in the Sangha, I think, and he said, no, you can't have women. And then he was pressed and he said, oh, okay, we can have women in the Sangha, but we have so much different rules.

[25:22]

Even the Buddha, in his causal matrix, wasn't a person who had to be the way he was. He had problems with seeing how women could join the Sangha. And Dogen lived at a time when it was a common view of Ayana that the great vehicle was not concerned with good and bad karma. So, looking at this, he says, that statement does not fall into cause and effect, negates cause and effect, and if it did cause an effect,

[26:34]

you get into trouble. And he got into trouble. Five million lifetimes, that's the box. And there's And there's many earlier people than Dogen was who talked differently about this kalan, and many other teachers who talked differently about this kalan. So, in this chapter on deep faith and cause and effect, The ancestor of Dogen brings up the story of Maya-lapta and Gayapta again.

[27:43]

So he says again here, in brief, retribution for good and bad comes in three times. And then he says here, common people... Common people. Now, we get upset when we hear about common people, or ordinary people, or non-Buddhists. Again, he lived at a time where he was made into a person who talked about common people and non-Buddhists. And we live in a different time. Now, if we change non-common people to unenlightened people, we live in a time where some of these don't feel so bad.

[28:57]

If we say unenlightened people, they're common people, or ordinary people, as though they were in another group. We're made into a person who feels funny about that. Now, it doesn't say women only see good and bad, or whatever. It's just common people. But it doesn't say that common people only see that to the good comes an early death, and to the violence comes long life. to the evil fortune and to the righteous calamity. That's what common people see. Dogen didn't say this.

[29:59]

Mahalagda said it. So he lived in another time. Whereupon common people say that cause and effect are non-existent, and that wrongness, as she said, that unhappiness and happiness are meaningless. Particularly, they do not know that the shadow and sound accord with their sources. In other words, the shadow goes with its form and the sound goes with its voice, without the slightest discrepancy. And then Dogen says, clearly we have seen All ancestors. Never negate cause and effect. And then he has a little, kind of a little harangue here, when he says, the present students do not clarify

[31:22]

the ancestral founder's benevolent instruction. And this is due to negligence in emulating the ancestors. Those who are negligent in emulating ancestors who randomly call themselves good counselors to humans and gods are great nuisances to human beings and gods. and enemies of practitioners. And then it says, You people before and behind never preach with the purport of negating cause and effect to junior students and late learners. That is false doctrine. It is not the dharma of the Buddhist ancestors at all. It is due to sparse study that you have fallen into such a false view as a teaching, a purported negating of cause and effect.

[32:34]

The ancestors did not teach the negation of cause and effect. strongly encouraged to emulate them and not teach litigation of cause and effect. It's better to teach deep faith than cause and effect. In my view, there's quite a bit more amazing things in this short little chapter, but I don't know if it's the right time to bring them out in the form of me reading this to you.

[35:25]

But maybe one little tidbit would be okay. Maybe what I've already given you is too much. Maybe a little bit more would be all right. Dogen Zenji says, the eternal Buddha, Wangshi, Eternal Buddha is eternal respect. So he's talking about someone that he really respects. And again, he's talked about this is a very important person in the Soto lineage, not in our direct lineage, but a very important person in the revival of Soto, a couple of generations before Dogen's teaching. Wangshi Shogaku, or Hongzhi, the person who compiled the Book of Serenity and wrote the verses for the Book of Serenity, very important teacher, someone Dogen really respected, and calls an eternal Buddha.

[36:44]

And he's commenting on this story about cause and effect, And he says, Put up water and a fathomless wave. What happened five hundred lives ago is of no consequence. Even as people discuss not being blind, still they are forcing themselves into nests of entanglements. Do you understand? Or not? If you are free and easy, there's nothing to prevent me going.

[37:56]

God sing, spirits dance, music naturally plays. In between, hands clap, people slap teachers, choruses, hurrahs. That's a poem by Wang Shi, translated into English. Then the great teacher Drogon says, the present world is... Even as people discuss not falling and not being unclear, are still forcing themselves into nests of entanglement." Just means that falling, not falling, just means that not falling and not being here may allow to the same thing.

[39:03]

In short, this instance of cause and effect has not been completely expressed nearly thereof. So, after that, Paul Dogen says, when he says that the discussion of following and not following put people into nests of entanglements, that understanding is not complete. So he's kind of criticizing this great teacher.

[40:07]

Incomplete. an incomplete explanation, not completely expressing the realization. But I would say that another part of Jogin's teaching at various points is that what our practice is, is not by the distinctions between not following and not being blind to cause and effect. Not being caught by the distinction of being free and being in bondage. But here, in dealing with these two responses to the question, when Wang Shi comes forward, to be talking about which is which is to get trapped in entanglements.

[41:27]

When he says that, Dolin says, this isn't a complete picture. He doesn't quite go so far to say, which he'll say in another point, that to talk that way sounds like they're pretty much the same thing. This teacher is saying that to talk about these two, you're just going to cause the entanglement. He says that sort of implies that not following is pretty much the same. That's what Daudin is saying about this statement. That's an implication he draws. And not right here, but later in the text he says, when you say that pretty much the same, you're negating causation. When you say that the falling of your spirit is pretty much the same, he's saying that's negating causation. But again, he was a person who lived in the world and was a person at a certain time.

[42:32]

When he lived there, he had to say, Be very careful when you hear these two answers about the freedom from cause and effect. Be very careful not to treat these answers And somebody who does treat them the same, in this world I live in, somebody who does treat them the same, I say that they're negating causation. Today I have to say they're negating causation. I say that because it's so important to me that we don't negate causation. That even when someone says, don't get hung up,

[43:35]

in the discriminations that even saying, don't get hung up at this time in history is negating moral cause and effect and negating moral cause and effect. You know, I don't think there's much debate among Buddhists about that that is very harmful. So part of what's here is that these masters are playing with this story. And Dogen, at this point in his life, when he probably has cancer and is going to die pretty soon, and not feeling well, and he lives in a world where people are kind of, in his view, kind of

[44:39]

not being literal enough, not being deeply literal about karma has effect. That even when I master that discussion between these two answers, he's falling into a nest, he started to say, you're being too playful. You're saying that they're the same. They're not the same, of course, literally. They're not the same. He didn't say they were the same. He just says to get into talking about which is which, you get caught in a net. of entanglements. At this point in his life, he's going to talk about the two, and he's saying, one is negation, and the other is deep failure.

[45:51]

So there's a time when a person, a voguing zenji, who says the first answer is one thing, and the second answer another thing, and the first answer is negation of cause and effect, and the second answer is deep faith in cause and effect. And I'm just making a discrimination between the two of them. And I'm saying that all the ancestors recommended the second one, There's no disagreement that they all taught cause and effect. They all taught karma has consequence. They all taught that. Buddha taught cause and effect. All the ancestors taught cause and effect. And to say, not only cause and effect, negates it.

[46:55]

But then after that's said, then masters start playing. And then he turns on the masters who are playing with him, some of them. There's one great teacher, he turns to them and he says, when he says, talking about this one and talking about that one, which I just talked about this one, and I just talked about this one, and I said, this one is like the road to hell, and this is the road to freedom. That's what I just said. And if he's telling me that I'm getting caught in a nest of entanglements, I say that he's saying these two things are the same. I'm not going so far to say he's negating causation. He doesn't go that far. But when other people, in later verses, say the same thing pretty much, equate them.

[48:03]

He says that equation negates it. The equation of not falling and not being clear negates causation, he says. Now, one thing which I think may be too much to bring to the forecast is when he says he does not completely understand this or completely explain this, Then he goes into, for example, when Wang Shi says, to get into the discussions, to say that to get into the discussions is getting trapped in entanglements, that that implies that these are the same, pretty much the same. That explanation doesn't get into the vast subtlety of the story. the vast subtleties of cause and effect that are actually surrounding the story. Because the story isn't just about those two answers. It's about a salvation process, and it's about a response to that, and a response to that, and a response to that.

[49:14]

It's about the monk being enlightened, about the monk being released. and about Longbow slapping a teacher. There's a lot going on in that story, which you may notice. Enough for today. I, as you know, I like to play with the teachings and I like to play with you with the teachings. I like for you to play with the teachings with me, with each other. And now could be playtime, but

[50:19]

in the spirit of this fascicle, that we kind of be erring aside of being too serious. I don't say be too serious. I say unless you're going to write a remark, If you're going to get off being right on the mark, in other words, being serious, go from serious to too serious. Don't go, don't play. No playing today. Because this is really serious stuff. Keep faith in causation. Do not deny causing effect. Do not negate it. bow down, bow down to cause and effect, just like Dogen had to, and Shakyamuni Buddha had to, and we all have to.

[51:34]

And by deeply trusting cause and effect, we may become clear of our cause and effect. And that, I would say, is freedom. Clarity in cause and effect is freedom. And that freedom could be called not falling into cause and effect. But again, not falling doesn't mean you're not operating in cause and effect, because Shakyamuni Buddha had to operate in cause and effect when the women wanted to be in misandry. He had to deal with Indian culture, Indian women. Indian women wanted to be in the Indian culture, he said, no, no. He was stuck. He struggled with that and still today some people think he didn't do too well with that problem.

[52:35]

He also said, I am a realized person, I am free, and here I am dealing with human society. I am a human. I am made by my environment, and I am a realized person in this environment, and this is how I work with problems. We knew in the ancestors

[53:52]

You know, I feel like I might have misrepresented ordinary mind in the previous discussion. I'm glad you brought that up. Ordinary mind doesn't mean ordinary deluded mind. It means the light of your mind, the way your mind ordinarily always has a light. That's the Buddha way. It's not using light. Yeah. Yeah. Does that help? I was hoping to request from you or from the Sangha to help me understand the stories that you're telling.

[55:26]

Oftentimes when you tell stories about men or monks in the past and the ways they interacted with each other, I have a very hard time finding something into my life that will allow me to go out in the world and practice in a way that feels more representative of the bodhisattva way that I aspire to. When people come up and share themselves openly and vulnerably, feel deeply inspired to practice, and go away feeling very inspired, and have clues, practical clues, of how I may manifest a bodhisattva way in the world. Wait just a second.

[56:28]

Can you hear her? Yes? Could you speak up a little bit, please? Certainly they heard you somewhat, but a little louder would be good. Maybe you could also come closer to me because I have a microphone. I understand what you said up till now, yes? So I'm wondering if I could have a little more explanation from you or maybe I'm wondering other people what how they've understood because maybe they had a better understanding of what you were saying and I'm wondering if it what is dissolving into their their bodies and minds and and if there's something that could that people could share with me that maybe would allow me to feel a little bit more helped by these teachings okay um so may I say what I understand you to say

[57:29]

One of the things that... You wanted some way to be able to relate to your life outside of the monastery, at least, and maybe even in the monastery, but definitely outside, in daily life. And you said that when people come up and share themselves, did you say that was meaningful? How would you put it? Come up and show themselves, share themselves. That should give you a clue about how to proceed. Something about that makes the teachings come alive to me. And it's not just what people are sharing, but it's you interacting with them. I feel I get a lot of inspiration in my own practice of how to work with myself and other people in a skillful but genuine way. And the story somehow, I end up feeling like I'm totally missing how to do this.

[58:41]

Well, so you don't see how the stories or the theory of the interactions which you see. The interactions somehow... You somehow feel educated by the interactions. They somehow... You feel enlightened by them. But you don't see how the stories are the theory behind the interactions. Sometimes, a little bit. But often, I end up just feeling very lost. During the story time. Yeah. I have to say there are more stories about me that may help. Okay. But it's also the language and the context that I have a very hard time entering. So, I need help. Now, the way... the way you came up here just now, I thought was in accord with, just felt in accord with faith that actions have consequence.

[59:59]

That's how I felt about it. So this is an example of, there's a teaching about the path of practice and the teaching of the path of practice is that all of our actions have consequences. So, how you acted. You got up, you walked over here and talked to me. I felt in your demeanor that you were being careful of what you did, what your body did and what your voice did. The way you were, Expression of faith in common cause and effect. So, this is a little story of you coming up here and talking to me, which is a story about you practicing faith in what you do with your body and voice in relationship to me and the group.

[61:08]

And I felt that in the way you expressed your posture and your voice, I felt conveyed that you were not discounting the importance of your karma. And I also... I also feel that you have done what you said was education to you. And you find when people come up and express themselves, which means when they express themselves, they are realizing their vulnerability. You've done that too, that you've done what you found other people doing helps you. So even if on some level you don't understand what I'm saying, you're doing what is in accord with the story.

[62:25]

And I was attracted to the practice by stories that were a few hundred years old, or a couple hundred years old, And as I practiced more, I got attracted by stories which were even more ancient. So part of the challenge of the tradition is to be able to relate what you hear about someone doing a long time ago as the same thing that you're doing now. And Sometimes what you hear about somebody doing a long time ago, you cannot see as to what you're doing now. And part of what we sometimes call classics is something that happened a long time ago that's still somehow irrelevant today.

[63:31]

You can hear bizarre things that happened long ago which don't seem to be relevant. But sometimes you hear stories of somebody doing a long time ago And sometimes you hear stories from today in the newspaper that are relevant and encouraging, which is great. But to hear about something that happened a long time ago and then find out that that thing then that we were inspired to see as relevant to today was something which that person then passed on to their successor, and that that thing which you saw as important was what they saw was important, and they've been taking care of that for 500 years or 800 years or 2,000 years, it deepens somehow the sense that you're not just doing something you think is cool today, but you're doing something that human beings have found to be important, in this case, for 2,500 years. But 2,500 years people have found it to be important to be very caring in this world of change about our actions.

[64:44]

And at the same time, they have been very caring about expressing themselves as a way to check if they are caring about their own passions, because if we express ourselves without attention to our karma in the practice community, and people will help us be more careful, because they think our karma is important. So I would encourage you to basically keep asking that over and over. How is what I'm doing right now relevant?

[65:49]

to the teachings I've been hearing. I don't see how that teaching is relevant to what I'm doing right now. And I don't see me expressing what I'm doing is relevant to that teaching. But you didn't say that. You didn't say, I don't see what I'm doing right now is relevant to that teaching. You didn't say that. You could have, but you didn't. But I said what you're doing right now is relevant to that teaching. So you ask for an example, and I give you yourself as an example. And now I wonder if you can see that you are an example of this teaching. Can you? But if you hadn't come up and expressed it, you might still be looking for an example, which is fine, because you are putting up examples. Who wants demonstrations of the teaching? That's who you are. That's fine. But if you don't say you need it, then I can't point out that you're it. But when you do say, I need this, I can say, well, there it is.

[66:54]

So you have to keep coming. And if you do see it, you might want to see how the teaching is happening right here. That's also fine to express when you do see it. Oftentimes when you do see it, though, you just sit there happily, oh my God, I see how this relates. So you can either bring forth when you see how it relates and share it, or come forth and say, I don't see how it relates to me right now. That's it. You're just doing it. And he said, oh. That's why you have to come forward and express yourself in your questions. But sometimes you won't. OK? Thank you. And you're a woman, too. So when people tell the story, they'll say, and by the way, Courtney's a woman. A woman came forward and asked. I spent a good portion of my life killing small animals.

[68:08]

Can you hear him? I spent a good portion of my life killing small animals. As a teenager, I hunted and trapped animals and caught fish. And as an adult, I continued catching fish. And two of the animals, by the way, were foxes. You killed two foxes? Yes. And I continued to fish until Zen came into my life, and then I could no longer support that activity. And what I'm wondering is whether there is something I can do to clear the karma of those past actions.

[69:11]

Can everybody hear you? Yes. Well, how do you feel about what you just said? How do you feel about what you did? That you reportedly kind of feel about those actions? How do I feel about... How do you feel about those actions you just told us about? Regretful. You feel regretful? Yeah. Anything else? How does feeling regretful feel? You feel sad? Sad. I mean, if there was a way to apologize, I would apologize.

[70:15]

I would repent. I mean, I have been repenting for years, but never really confessed. I heard somebody say that he doesn't like apologizing so much. It doesn't like apologizing for bad things. It's more like when you say sadness or the grief you feel that you didn't do something else. Yeah. The sadness you feel that you weren't kind to the foxes. Yeah. The sorrow you feel that you didn't treat the foxes the way you now really want to treat foxes. more going that direction, rather than apologizing. In the chapter on karmic three times, at the end, you know, Jogin quotes the... Well, he basically speaks of who did that karma,

[71:30]

And he says, everything depends on making your karma... Everything depends on whether you're wholesome or unwholesome, white or black, he actually says. Everything depends on whether you make karma wholesome or unwholesome. The World Honored One says, with the passing of hundreds of thousands of kalpas, the karma we create does not perish. When causes and conditions come together, effects and results naturally are seen." Well, I'm going to read this section here, which I thought would be just exactly what you need to hear, but I'm not sure I'm finding it.

[72:49]

But basically, it's the effects of these actions will come not only about having done something that you did and wish you had done otherwise, but there will be consequences to these things. But the more you open to the feeling of the way you were with the bosses, and the more you open to the sorrow you feel of the way you were with the bosses, the more you do that, the more the way you want to be with the bosses will be promoted. And also, the more you will be able to continue to practice even when the consequences of these things can dawn upon you at some point in your evolution.

[73:52]

So, you're confessing now, and repenting is the same feeling over unskillfulness. And The story we just read could be understood. One of the ways to understand the story we just read is that that person spent 500 years feeling sorrow over the unskillful answer he gave. So part of our process is an ongoing one of confession and feeling the sorrow. the breathing, the pain of all of our past actions. And so we have thought that you, fortunately, have found some specific ones to feel specific pain for. So if you can open to that, to this sorrow, to this grief over missing a chance,

[74:56]

introduces into the process a skillful, a wholesome, and transformative element. Is that called melting the root of transgression? That melts the root of transgression. In the Zendo, before the Sangha, and before the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas, it's also good to do it as you're doing it now, not just by yourself. because now other people have heard, and they can help you. I feel that your confession was clear. It might not have been, but I felt it was. But if it hadn't been, I would have asked you questions to help you clarify. Sometimes when we say things when we're alone, It's unclear, but we think it's clear. They say, I don't understand what the problem is, and we say more, and they say, oh, I see the problem.

[76:06]

So to do it in a practice situation with other people is also really... Because then the other person remembers, you know. Then they say, you know, I was thinking one thing, and they help, they remind you of it. I'm not saying... that you tell them, and then they come back and you say, boy, that was really terrible what you did to the rat. I don't mean that kind of thing. I mean just that, you know, you told me this thing that you did the other day, and I just want to tell you, well, maybe I also have harmed people like that. I killed a whatever, you know, and they can show you, they can really help you learn how to believe over this. So this is how to work with it. This is a traditional way to do it in the Sangha. The early Buddhism didn't have much ritual.

[77:08]

It grew up in this Buddhism religion and society that had lots of ritual, but the Buddhists didn't have much ritual. The main ritual they had was how to go talk to the teacher. how to approach the Buddha, and how to become ordained, and also the ritual of confessing and repentance. So this is a key ceremony that you're doing right now, and it needs to continue. You need to continue to visit your feeling about these forces. Good. Thank you. Oh, you continue this, and any other vows you have concerning foxes that you wish to express? I'm sorry? I heard you continue to practice repentance, but any other vows you care to express at this time concerning foxes? When you say foxes, which you said several times, are you just using that to represent the animals?

[78:15]

Yeah, all animals, yeah, right. Well, one thing that is maybe not yet a vow, but is kind of inescapable to consider is, uh, eating meat. Well, before you get to the one you're not yet ready to do, what vow can you make now? Can you make the vow to not kill posses? I can make the vow... Can you make the vow to not kill fish? Yes. Yes. Can you make the vow to not kill rats? I can do that. Can you make the valley not just graves? I can do that. I do the valley. Can you make the valley not just graves? Down to paramecium. So, and you can let us know if you have any further vowels, but I thought maybe those ones were kind of ready.

[79:15]

Yeah. Okay. I'd like to respond to Courtney's request for other people in the Santa to speak about their experience. I don't know if there's a question in here, but I thought I would respond to her request. Okay. Okay. You can talk to her if you want to. Okay. Well, should I look at her and not you? I mean, okay. Either way, I won't mind if you're looking at her. I might do both. Yeah, that's fine. You can look at the she-so, too. He's looking particularly lovely today. Courtney, so you talked about how different people in Islam might practice with the story that Rev told, especially as a woman, and especially as one who doesn't live in a monastery, maybe full-time and lives out in the world and has a relationship and things like that.

[80:38]

Kind of where you were coming from, that general realm. but um and as a woman and as a woman i am that um when i was listening to rev tell the story this morning i felt i am the old man and i am the fox and to me the um not even so much about the storyline of cause and effect but the act uh You know, the old man, the me that is old, that has been carrying a burden for a really long time, the old pain, that me who continues to come and listen to the teaching even though I'm bearing this pain, at some point being ready to ask outside of myself for a turning word for some kind of help.

[81:40]

and then being willing to listen to and receive that help. And then furthermore, to ask for the support to bury the fox body. When I read the part about asking for the funeral for the fox body, I was deeply in tears were coming from my eyes because I feel like I've just had one of those experiences over these last couple of days. talking about the details, which are far too personal. It involved a long-time difficulty I've had with my partner. Just a couple days ago, I thought I might die from the pain of really confronting this issue, this old, long-standing issue. Received feeling the pain, asking for support, actually, in a phone call. hearing the turning word and feeling the fox body die, feeling that part of me that was holding on to whatever it was holding on to fall away.

[82:55]

I don't know if that helps or not. I just thought I would share that with you as an example. Cool, thank you. Anything else? I mean... I thought, you know, I mean... That was a new thing for me, of, um... That this... That this fox keeps coming to the Diamond Sharks. That there's a story about how foxes continue to come to the Diamond Sharks until... It's the time to come and ask for the Timing Word and get... They have to suffer through many lectures. Yeah.

[83:58]

The aim of many lectures is how the rightness comes. Yeah, that we're all kind of like foxes, we're all in these fox bodies, But he went to Lectius. He kept going to the Lectius until finally the day came and thought of it that way, that aspect of the story. Well, and if I could add, you know, part of... For me, the experience in this relationship, which is 25 years now, has been the willingness to stay with it even though there's been some areas of great difficulty. be not knowing if there ever would be any redemption um and i'm not recommending this necessarily however you know that's been where i found myself there's something to that that i relate to in the kind of fool the fool the fox is this fool you know am i coming back my full to stick with this

[85:02]

and uh never not knowing and yet oh good you know it's it's a nice feeling but you know but it's sad too because the fox died so there's some you know there's some loss and we bury it and you know the monks bearing ringing the bell that just it's so moving to me so thank you Thank you for reading the whole Koan story. I have long held this one as one that's interesting to me, and it puzzles me.

[86:04]

I relate to part two, which is the monks who look around and say, we're having a funeral ceremony, and gee, I can't hear it. A little louder. She is having trouble with... She can relate to the part where the monks look around and say, How come we're having a funeral ceremony? Everyone appears to be here. Yeah. And no one's sick. And no one's sick. No one's in the nirvana hall. Yeah. And so an action is happening, and yet it's hard to understand, you know, Evidence for that action, that is, the effect of that action, is not completely clear. It's very unclear. That something is happening that I have no empirical evidence for how these things come together. Is it that you don't have the evidence for the cause? You said the effect. You don't... That's right. You don't have... You don't know what's causing these... You don't know what's causing...

[87:04]

And so it reminds me of the Gayathri Kumar Latha's story. So it leaves me also with doubt. So not that I don't doubt. I believe in . That's clear. But having faith that I can actually connect one thing to another is really where I feel stuck. And it's like the verse, the first line of the verse that you read, which was... Excuse me? Yeah. Having faith and being able to see how it works, you have a doubt about that? Yeah, yeah. Well, the teaching doesn't say that you will be able to see that for a long time. It's having faith and causing that doesn't mean you believe that you will be able to see on some time scale. That's part of why it's difficult is because we can't actually, most of us cannot see karmic causation in three times.

[88:07]

We can't see how it works. That's part of the problem of this type of teaching. There's other types of teaching we can, to some extent, see. the results of karma in this life. But there's other kinds of karma which is not clear to us. And this story actually has lots of questions in it, which we may even get into later. The faith in the cause and effect is faith in that the basic faith is that action has consequence, Unskillful action has causes unhappiness, for that unhappiness comes... Unhappiness, not painful sensations. Some painful sensations come from action, but not all painful sensations come from action. Some painful sensations come from action, but not all pleasant sensations come from action. But happiness, unhappiness, depending on karma, you can be happy,

[89:11]

The Buddha was happy when he was in pain. The Buddha was happy when she was in pleasure. The Buddha was happy when she was in pain. She was always happy. She is always happy. And the reason she's happy is because of karma, having been studied and understood. And to whatever extent we can Skillful things, we will be happy. Unskillful things, we will be unhappy. That's the teaching. How that works, you're not supposed to understand yet. Is that what part two of that story is kind of demonstrating? That it's the unknowability of some things? I think that, yeah, well, not just part two, but what happened to the fox also is part of what happened at Fox.

[90:12]

You know, did he become a human? What happened at Fox is... And that we haven't gotten into yet. And understanding that is what part of what Dogen is alluding to when he says that, when the Master Wangshi says that getting into these discussions of this story, the way he did it didn't really complete what happened. And then he asks a bunch of questions. And Dogen doesn't answer these questions, but he shows you some questions that might come up. So from the time that he hears the charming word, we're wondering about that, and the monks are wondering about that. And then Wang Bo is wondering about it, and then Wang Bo does his thing with his teacher in relationship to the story. So all that's there to wonder about.

[91:14]

And wondering about it, I think, could be part of deep faith in cause and effect. We need to wonder about it, I guess, also in the context of finding a way to have to be caught by discrimination. Thanks be to God. What is a foot of water, a fathom of wave? First line in the verse. A small thing, like saying, does not fall into cause and effect, can lead to big waves. A small impoliteness can lead to a huge tidal wave. But also a small impoliteness in the context of practice, can be very easy to do.

[92:20]

The consequences can be quite small, like someone can say, if you're practiced sincerely and you're impolite, then people will revile you. They'll say, that was really impolite of you. You're really nasty. And that could hurt. But that's the kind of result you get from being polite when you're practicing sincerely. You get that kind of environment rather than tidal waves. But if you're nasty to people and you don't practice, it can lead to a huge terrible result. That's what I'm saying. That's how it works sometimes. Or like the other way around too, the Buddha's example. Actually, a woman gave him a little, he made an offering of a small little tea pastry to him, you know.

[93:24]

And I don't know if he told her, but he leaned over and said to one of his assistants, as a result of this gift, you know, she will, you know, in her future life, she will be, and he told us, a wonderful image she had as a result of this wonderful kindness to the Buddha. He said, it's like a musket seed. We can plant it. I don't know if you've seen this. Some kind of seed, we plant it, and it grows into a tree that can cover 500 wagons. So a small good in the context of a practice environment can give a huge positive result. And a small inconsiderateness or incolateness not in the context of practice can be a huge terrible thing. Kindnesses, without being surrounded with practice, they don't grow.

[94:26]

They deteriorate. Or they come to fruition very quickly and don't mean much at all. But sometimes the little things that people do around here, the little kindnesses, during the practice period, develop into a huge kindness, a huge benefit, a huge happiness. coming from a little kindness in the right environment, and vice versa. A small rudeness in a pricey environment matures very quickly in the form of . That was really sleazy. That may seem somewhat painful, but it's nothing compared to what would happen if you let it grow for a while. Does that make sense? That's what that first line is about. Yeah, it does. To me it ties back into this wondering about actions that I can't actually, or experiences, or anything happening in life where I can't quite say, here are the causes for these results.

[95:34]

Yeah. You're not supposed to be able to do that completely. Until an amazingly elaborate evolution has occurred to you, called becoming enlightened, and then after that, practicing virtue for a long time, and you become a Buddha. And with that, all works and it helps you. In the meantime, there can be faith in that process. So that's study karma, become enlightened, study karma and have your karma developed really well, become enlightened, and then practice for a long time. You can see this. That's the story. And that's why maybe the third part of the story is Wang Bo slapping Fai Zhang? Is that an expression of the third part of the story? Is what in this kind of course connected?

[96:37]

That one attains a level of understanding that is a kind of freedom. So the third part of the story is Wang Bo slapping a teacher, which seems kind of like maybe the worst thing you might do. But it's sort of an act of freedom. Is that third part of the story, an act of freedom? It is an act of freedom, yes. But act of freedom is not the same as understanding the whole picture of the causation. That's further down the line. These acts of freedom, in the context of practice, those are the acts of enlightenment in action, in practicing the cause and effect, to move towards and complete omniscience of the picture. But I'm not saying one vow and or bhajan have omniscience. but rather they're on the path of deep faith and causation. And they're able to demonstrate freedom from the forms.

[97:45]

And the part of Dogen I'm showing you this morning is like, if you demonstrate freedom of the forms, In this situation that I live in right now today, it's like negating cause and effect. So be careful. There was a time in the past when I talked that way. That was a different world. The world I live in today, if anybody says anything that negates cause and effect, I'm going to point it out. But I haven't heard him say that one bow negated cause and effect by slapping. is teaching. But he's saying some other people... He's talking about clapping and singing and stuff like that. He's not quite saying that's mediating, but he's saying, you know, it's almost like you shouldn't be clapping if you didn't explain enough to have a party.

[98:59]

The explanation is not full enough for us to get to the story and say, OK, now let's dance. That's kind of how I feel. But the story has this slapping and lapping, it's getting joyful. But then when we look at the story, we have to be careful. And in our carefulness, as we start to get more and more deeply committed to the study, we may feel it's time for us to have a party, too. And if I might say an example of this that comes to my mind is someone said to me, you know, I was suggesting in the future that if you're needing a practice period, that you attend the mid-practice period skip night. suggested to me, or call it off.

[100:03]

I think you should be in attendance, the person said. And I guess the person felt like they weren't sure that people were, what do you call it? What's the word again? had deep faith in cause and effect as they were expressing themselves and so on at that time. That maybe the Party almost like was weak on the point about deep faith in cause and effect, and a little bit too much of a messiah there does not fall under cause and effect. That's my guess, but that's what you see. I think you already talked about this with Donna, but I felt like it was still important for me to come up.

[101:24]

Could you come up closer and speak a little bit more in a wider volume? Sure. I think you already talked about this with Donna, but I felt like it was still important for me to come up. Is that loud enough, folks? Okay. There you go, doctor. I feel like in the past, usually I don't have deep faith of cause and effect, but I kind of generally agree. a pretty superficial understanding, but I have some trust that… Excuse me. You said you don't have deep faith, but you generally agree? Yeah, but I have some… It makes sense to me, generally. Yes, but you didn't quite say you have deep faith. No, because I keep acting. I think if I had deep faith, then I wouldn't continue to act in ways that continue a karmic pattern.

[102:29]

You think you might have to be more careful? Yeah, maybe more careful or... It's like... not heartbreaking myself all the time or something, you know? It's like I would get it, so I would change the pattern or something, is what it feels like. I don't think it's the case that if you had deep faith you wouldn't still act in any way of this. I think that you can have deep faith but be unclear about causing trouble still. So deep faith isn't simultaneous not being unclear. Deep faith is not the same, I would say, as not being blind. Not being blind is the same as deep faith.

[103:32]

So Dogen says not being blind is deep faith. I think he could have deep faith. and still be blind. Maybe you're right. Maybe if you had faith, you could still be blind, but as you start to clear up, your faith gets deeper. So maybe deep faith and seeing clearly, maybe the faith just gets deeper and deeper, deeper and deeper to understand causes effect. So that's part of what it's about, is that we have some faith in cause and effect, but we also can see, although we can't see completely clearly, we can still see that we're doing things that don't seem skillful, and we can also see that they seem to have some negative consequences. That's some vision, and that's some faith, but it's probably also true that if we saw more clearly that we'd have a deeper faith.

[104:33]

If we had a deeper faith, then it would see more clearly, and it would see more clearly, and we'd act differently. Because if we didn't want to, it would just be like, oh, yeah. There wouldn't be a hindrance to it. Exactly. It would be like, this is clearly the way to go. I see it. It's just very clear. I do want to do that, and I don't want to do that. It's a very... And, yeah, it's actually going to happen the way I want it to happen, because that's like in the cards right now, and I can see it. So, can I go on? Yeah, yeah. One more. Could I say something? Yeah. Do you want to say something? Yeah. Okay. I want to say something is that When you first came up, you spoke kind of softly, and then, of course, people couldn't hear you very well. And so I think part of what I think is probably related to Courtney, part of what we need to do is we need to express ourselves in a sense, neurologically.

[105:52]

Not loudly so it'll hurt people's ears, but loudly so they can hear us. And that's why studying Cause and Effect is to get ourselves fully out there. I'm trying to take little steps. Well, they can be little ones, but wild ones. Little, loud steps so that we can hear. And you're really up there. And then you can really learn. That's pretty scary. Yeah, scary. So part of this is to, like, in our daily life, in our daily interactions, to really put ourselves up there. It goes with studying cause and effect. Not yelling at people. Not holding back so they can't see us. We really put ourselves out there is part of what it takes to have optimum learning. And it can be little tiny things, but we really fully put them out there.

[106:58]

you made these truffles, right? So that you kind of like pretty much put yourself out there when you made them, right? So then I can say, thank you very much. And I haven't looked at them yet. So take another little step. When I heard the stories you were telling today, what arose in me was suspicion. Like, they're saying, you have to believe this, you know, explanation point, and you can't, you know, see. when you think that a good person, you think that cause and effect isn't true because you see a good person being unhappy and an unfortunate person being happy and it's because you don't see that it happens in the short or medium or long term or something that we can't see. I feel it felt like overstating the point or something and it's like you really want

[108:05]

us to believe this. And what comes up in me is like it's so loud for me. It's so loud I can't hear it. It's too loud. It's so loud that it blows me right over. And then I think And I felt that suspicion of, or doubt, or suspicion of cause and effect. And the thing that came up was, like, the feeling that... I feel like the more I say Zazen, the more I practice, the more scared I get. It's like... I'm tired of being so scared. You're tired of being scared. Well, um... One story is, the more I see themselves, the more scared I get. Another story is, the more I see themselves, the more I become aware of my fear.

[109:07]

So my experience with people is that they're afraid, and I often say, I walk around the world and I see frightened people all over the place. I see some people who aren't frightened too, but I see frightened people hiding out in public, so I can see them, you know. And sometimes people come into a private situation and also try to hide out, which is really much more difficult. But in public, people are walking down, they actually go out of the house and try to hide, and also hide that they're afraid. It doesn't work. So people are afraid. But my experience is that when people sit down, they become aware that they're afraid. When they sit down, they say, still. But people walking down the street, they don't know that they're afraid. They come and sit down and they start to become worse. I don't think, myself, in most cases, that when people practice sitting quietly, they become more brave.

[110:11]

I think they become more courageous. And when you're more courageous, you can open more to your fear. Courageous people are not people that aren't afraid. They're people who keep functioning, even in a frightening situation or a dangerous situation, in a dangerous situation. So I would think that if you're opening to your fear, then it's growing. That would be my sense. In most cases, that's what I see is happening, not that people are getting more afraid. And I think we do want to be free of fear, and my experience is that the more we express it, and even someone who's not so skillful, but particularly someone who's into that fear-expressing business, the more we do it, the more we realize, I can be afraid and I can still carry on a conversation, and I can say I'm afraid and finish my sentences, and, you know, and...

[111:19]

I can be aware and afraid and let people know and light can go on. And that fear isn't light, doesn't have to be so troublesome. And then I get more and more relaxed with fear. And getting more relaxed with fear is getting closer to being fearful. And so anyway, when I was saying, when I was enacting Dogen's point that, in Buddha's point too, that nothing's so harmful as initiating causation, and nothing's so helpful as accepting that karma has cause. That's the most helpful thing. is to realize that what we do has consequence. The most helpful thing is to pay attention to our action. That's a really important point.

[112:22]

Doing skillful things is also good, but paying attention is good too because you're even learning when you're doing unskillful things. So saying that and saying it strongly you know, someone could get broken in that situation. Yeah? Do you think that, do certain consequences that are certain, what you were saying, kind of what shows us feeling, like, do certain match the maturation connect with certain in other words if it's like it's fear you know is it so because it seems like here's a caramel here is a element in the common field so here isn't really a contraction by itself it's not an intention but you well would you say that it's a maturation of a certain caramel like when you say a ...being a feeling, and you say that karma matures as feeling.

[113:26]

So is fear the maturation of a certain karma, of karma? No, I think fear is not... When we say feeling, we mean positive, we mean pain, pleasure, and... Sensation, more sensation. Sensation, yeah. Fear arises in the minds that have a certain shift. And the minds that have a certain shape aren't the maturation exactly, aren't the maturing, aren't the coming to term of the past term that they're conditioned by. So the shape of my mind right now is conditioned by past shapes. My present intention is conditioned by past intentions. But my present intention is not the maturation of a past intention, because this present intention is now It's like coming to term. It's like the coming to term of my history. The connection between the past and the future. But a feeling is a coming to charm, ensuring. By feeling you meet sensation, not emotion.

[114:30]

And the emotion of fear arises within a certain intention. Like if you intend to be cruel to someone, you're very likely to be cruel. Or if you're afraid, actually a better way to say it, if you're afraid, that also goes with the intention to harm. Violent intentions often have, violent karma, violent intention, often have fear in them. on face fear often, too. Well, it's interesting when you say that, because I feel like fear is just a huge part of my experience, and yet I don't really relate to violence or even maybe anger or like that doesn't feel like a big part of my experience you know well i would say that even though it doesn't which is unhappy to hear that you're at risk of it a lot of people everybody that has fear is at risk of violence i would say but some people very seldom do become violent but most people i know that do become violent

[115:39]

But not everybody flips into each environment. Well, some people do violence towards themselves instead of towards others. Yeah. Which you may not do either. Well, maybe in a subtle way. Maybe in a subtle way, yeah. But, yeah, doing violence is the intention to harm. That's the intention. That's the karma. Not anyone, someone that we have fear and the intention is to do something helpful, like, for example, you could be afraid that people won't like you and speak kindly. I mean, you could speak kindly with a mind that was afraid of what would happen to you if you didn't speak kindly. In that case, the fear would be part of the wholesome intention. Another case, you could be afraid that people would harm you if you spoke kindly. You know, like, if someone was... group of people, people being mean to the person, or disrespectful, and you went over and spoke to them respectfully, or said, can I help you?

[116:50]

You might be afraid of those people who are passing, passing them would be a few. So in that case, if you didn't go over there to help them, then the fear would stop you from dreadful symptoms. So fear can be, when the fear is in the mind, it can sometimes promote wholesomeness and sometimes promote unwholesomeness, or, quote, unwholesomeness. Both are possible. But the key thing is, to be studying the mind, if the fear is there, and the more we see it's there, the more we'll embrace it, the more skillful we'll become. The more we'll dare to do the skillful thing, Even people get hurt because they do it. Of course, it won't make it harder for us to do skillful things. That's okay. Is just expressing yourself a skillful thing? I mean, I think my fear is I'm afraid of expressing myself because I'm afraid people will haunt me if I express myself.

[117:53]

Not all forms of expression are skillful. But not all forms of expression are skillful. But all unskillful things are expressions. Whenever you do anything unskillful, you have just expressed yourself. Or skillful. Or skillful. All skillful and unskillful things are expressions. Not all expressions are one or the other. Neutral. Because some are just neutral. Some are neutral, right. But without noticing that you're expressing yourself, without noticing that you're expressing yourself, your skillfulness will generally become more and more unskillful. Noticing that you're expressing yourself, your expressions will become more and more skillful. And noticing your expression means noticing your karma. And not noticing your expression means not noticing your karma.

[118:57]

So if you feel like you're expressing yourself, time, and especially if you feel like you're expressing yourself energetically, then that's very much the same as you're being aware of your karma. So expressing yourself is what you're doing all the time. Noticing it is what's not so common in this world. Everybody's expressing themselves all day. Not everybody's saying, here's my expression, there's my expression, there's my expression, and also, this is me, this is a full expression, this is a full expression for a I don't want to know full expression because I think pretty people will notice this expression. I think this is not a very good expression, so I don't want them to notice. Full expression is the way. In fact, full expression is what we are always doing but Because of not fully developed faith in cause and effect, we do not fully attend to what we're... And this, as I said, causes unhappiness.

[120:08]

Not attending to what, especially in full, goes to unhappiness, because it also goes to incomplete faith in cause and effect. If we really had deep... cause and effect, then every action would be a full expression and a big important thing. So the more you notice this and the fear around it, the more the fear will let you say, okay, even while I'm afraid, I still can't fully express myself. And this matures the faith in causing fear. And I'm really glad you came up here, even though this . Thank you. Yeah, me too. Can I go up? Can you share one more thing? Most people said yes. Can somebody say, no, girl? I just want to say something that might help me in Sushina, just sitting with this fear and expressing that.

[121:30]

I mean, I am expressing myself in my body, but I think in being quiet with the fear. Quietly say, How to find some quiet way to sort of say, you know, I'm going to have to face fear here. And also, I think that it might be easier to stay with it if you also relax with the fear. You don't have to tense up with it. It's possible to relax with it. I'm afraid, yeah, I don't care. I'm afraid of it. I relax with it. It doesn't necessarily go away, but I can relax with it. Now it'll be easier to feel it again. And then you may start to notice there's a rhythm. And also just hear the words that it's normal when you slow down and quiet down to become aware that it's normal.

[122:33]

Most people... You know that name? But the first book I read, the first page and a half I read of him, I read a little bit, and on the bottom of the page it says, wherever you go around the world, wherever you meet, everybody is, and I turned the page, afraid. Tell, there's no hindrance. There's some fear. When there's no hindrance to our missions, when you're really clear, there's no fear. But until then, there's the slightest bit of obstruction to the truth. There's some fear in us. So all of us are a little afraid, or really afraid. Becoming aware of fear is to become aware of hindrance. Becoming aware of hindrance is a necessary part of the task. So just know the fear and try to realize with it, and realize that this is going to be something you're going to be working on entirely.

[123:40]

Yeah, and maybe you were away. Tim, when the Chassol came up and gave a talk about that he was afraid, did you hear about that? Yeah, he came up and told us he was afraid. Did you say really? Yeah, he really said. And he said actually that he was afraid of everybody, right? Yeah, he's afraid of everybody. That's the point. You've got a lot of company. And a lot of other people came up and said, I'm like the she-so. So I think we're all afraid of each other in this nice little group here. We're afraid of each other. And there's going to be a she-so send one. And you people can get up and express yourselves. And there'll be some fear. You'll be afraid of the she-so. The she-so will be afraid of you.

[124:57]

Right? And what will all be afraid of is the pharmacy cell? The pharmacy cell. The pharmacy cells will be frightening the she-cell. And some of the pharmacy cells will be thinking, I'm not afraid of anybody. Except for maybe a few people they're afraid of. What about putting down when you're afraid of the police, John? Are you afraid of Bill again? Well, okay, okay, okay. I'm afraid of somebody. When there's no hindrance, no fears exist. It doesn't say, however, if there is any hindrance, there is some fear. If there's a little bit, there's some fear.

[125:58]

All the bodhisattvas in fear of Vimokirti. All the bodhisattvas afraid of Vimokirti? Vimokirti, you know. Manjushri wasn't afraid of him. Manjushri was not afraid of Vimokirti. Wasn't. He's got a stool. That's the wrong answer. I don't know where you're going to go for that one. What's the answer, Carol? I can't remember. The answer is no, he doesn't have any hindrance. Vimalakirti doesn't have any hindrance. That's why he's not afraid of Vimalakirti. All the other people have little hindrance left. They're great monks, but little bit of hindrance. afraid of immaturity. The Buddha wasn't afraid of immaturity. He's just too lazy to go. Manjushri was not afraid of him because of no hindrance.

[127:09]

But Manjushri for many eons was afraid. For many eons he was afraid, like us. But he studied that fear And he saw the conditions for it and realized the truth. And then there was no hindrance and no fear. So then he could go and have a nice conversation.

[127:39]

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