They have to help, but it's still a sense of give and take. Look at Sensei in San Francisco. Well, we do, don't you? We did. Still, we do. Huh? Resistance? Well, resistance is not the real resistance. Resistance is still, for Dogen, resistance is one of the Buddhist words. So he knows resistance. But that resistance is not accepted in the usual sense. It is a part of Buddhist declarations. Workable. So basically, Dogen's life is very peaceful. Perfect peace. That is called compassion, we say. But our idea of compassion is coming from here.

[01:05]

Still in the sense of give and take. You understand? It's quite different from this. If you understand compassion in terms of this level, I think still compassion is the usual sense of kindness. So you don't know how to work on. In other words, internally or externally, we have an object. If you have an object, very naturally, it's subject there. So that's why there is a kind of business going in the realm of give and take. Alright? But this speech is beautiful give and take.

[02:07]

Beautiful business, you know, in the domain of give and take. That's why we believe it. But still, you cannot get real peace. Apparently, you seem to be at peace, but you never know what real peace is. But nobody says, about real peace, or nobody says, I'm not real peace. But apparently, people pretend to be at peace. But basically, we are not at peace. If you don't practice this one, no peace. Okay. Is it very dangerous now to understand how the ABC works?

[03:16]

That you can see the beat by understanding it? Pretty good. Even understanding is pretty good. But next, you shouldn't be caught by your understanding. Dogen mentioned that understanding wisdom is to be caught by understanding. So it's not real wisdom. That is, we are always understanding this word be by wisdom. So it means you understand wisdom. You understand enlightenment. But that means you are caught by your understanding. So you never get freedom. So you have to go once more again. You have to go once more again. Ahead. Any other questions?

[04:17]

Questioner 2 What does it sound like? Sometimes, in some Zen teachings, they talk about don't know mind. Don't... Don't know mind. Is that a word? Is that sort of in C or B? What would you use that term to... It depends on the connotation. Connotation of the sentence. You must be careful. But we can say still, no mind, no eyes, no ears, in this level. But the point is, what is the real meaning of no mind, no eyes, no ears? Okay? In other words, how do you make it alive? Make the no eyes, no ears alive in everyday life? You have to see. You have to see very deeply form of no mind anyway. In...

[05:20]

With your whole body and mind. If you stand up here, you can see. So that's why next, in the next sentence, Dogen Zenji mentions, wisdom is form. Form is mountain and river. This is interesting point. Next sentence, he mentions. So wisdom is form. Wisdom, anyway, comes down to this. At that time, this word, anyway, becomes bright mirror. And all things are reflected here. What is this? This is a form of mountains, form of rivers. Then, it means it's coming up from here. So that's why mountains and rivers are Buddha. That's what that means.

[06:27]

Coming up. I think so. Otherwise... in this level. So don't worry. Look at the people, the religious people, you know. You can see. You know, what's his name? He went back to India. Rajneeshi, you know. He's a very interesting guy. He's using the boss word, anyway.

[07:28]

I don't know freely, but he always stands up in a mirror. Not here. Mirror. Using boss. He seems, but I don't think so. Strictly speaking. But people say he looks like walking in the... You know. Yeah. Walking in... Floating. Floating when he walks. When he walks, he looks like floating. It's great, isn't it? Laughter. Some people think it's good to be grounded. That's where people become crazy, you know. That religious spirit, religious feeling really makes people crazy.

[08:31]

Right? Because it's Monday. And not Monday anymore? Not only today. Laughter. Every ages. All ages, anyway. Spiritual life, always discussed. And we are interested in religious issue. Universal. Universal. Very universal. So you can be free from any sense of religion. Any particular religion. Any sense of philosophy. But it's philosophy. It's philosophy, and also it's religious. Beyond religious. But it's universal.

[09:34]

So even though you don't use any term, you can really live. You can explain. But sometimes it's very difficult to explain without using existing religious term. That's what we borrow, anyway. But if we borrow the particular religious term, we are completely caught by the concept. You're like Mother Teresa. What do you think she is? I know it. Laughter. Mother always living here. I'm not criticizing. Living here and glimpsing. Constantly glimpsing. And it's coming. It's illuminate his life. Her life. Illuminate. Illuminate means... Here is the C word. Illuminate whole world. A and B.

[10:36]

That's why she's very strong and pray. Prayer to this. Not necessary to change. She just continue to this way. Because it's very difficult to change. If you have this particular position in a religious way, it's very difficult to change. Stubborn. People become stubborn. Probably. Probably one is. You have experience. That is a little different.

[11:40]

Delicate. Subtle differences. Even though you say oneness. What is a real oneness? If she becomes or she or you, all of you become exactly one with the C, why we have to continually emphasize the particular term? So-called divinity or Avalokiteshvara or Buddha or God. It's not necessary to say so much. Your life is exactly C life. So, you just anyway helping concentrate. When you have to teach, you can teach. But in our everyday life, just life. But that is a very subtle difference here. If I say so, it seems to be arguing, but not arguing

[12:41]

exactly for me. That is a subtle difference. Like dogs and shins. It's very difficult to understand the subtle difference between. So, I think even in Christianity or even in sin school, I think you can live in peace and harmony. It depends on the intention. How much, how strong it is. How powerful it is to bring it, to see continually this one. Just to grips and forget next, it's not strong intention. You have to continue to grips and watch

[13:43]

this one. And then that is simultaneously bring the C into her or his life. That is really strong belief. Okay. Faith. Do you understand? Quality of quality. Yes, quality of intention. Intention. Do you know of people, could you point to anybody right now who really lives like Doberman lived? Would you say? I don't know. Like Zen teachers that you know?

[14:44]

Well, at least anyway, people who practice and study that Dogen's teaching. I think not everyone but some understand very deeply like that. You practice. Well, sure. Okay. I have. He has lots of feelings. That's why Gengyo Koin, he says nevertheless, flowers blooms with attachment. Do you remember? The word

[15:49]

is complete beyond being or non-being. Anyway, not being. This is this word. Anyway, but nevertheless, he said flowers blooms with attachment, grows with gratitude. Something like that. He can know. He can feel very deeply. More than anybody else. Very deeply. Because it is. Flowers bloom with attachment. It's not the usual attachment. This is Buddha's attachment. Buddha's life. So whatever it is, Dogen really gives deep sympathy to flowers' weeds. Very deep. Practically speaking,

[16:50]

it's very simple. Of course he feels, but he doesn't stay long. Of course he feels. One part of the process, religious process, sometimes you have to experience that, you know, completely no feelings. This process you can go through. But when you come back here and go back to this A and B word, then that is. You can feel lots of things very deeply and you just deal with. Coming out of brightness, you hit the brightness. Avasandhaka Sutra

[18:07]

mentions about this world, but it's still philosophy. So it's really in the realm of B, talking about C. Talking about C. Looking at this world and talking about A and B in terms of C. That's Avasandhaka, but it's still philosophy. He doesn't know. The Avasandhaka Sutra doesn't know how to let the people live here and practice. Avasandhaka Sutra doesn't say. Of course, in a sense, the Avasandhaka Sutra mentions about the practice of Buddha way. In terms of Avasandhaka teaching, but still it is philosophy. Philosophical. It's philosophical, but it's very practical. Very practical. Very simple practice anyway. That's why it is too simple to know.

[19:07]

To believe. Lots of questions coming up. It is too truth. Too truth to know. I have to admit that I'm skeptical about being able to exist as a human being, attached to human form and to actually dwell and see. It seems like the best that can be done would be to relatively be close to see, but still I'm stuck with this attachment and all of the consciousness that goes with it. I'm skeptical. Yes, skeptical, but the more you are skeptical, that means the more you can see

[20:08]

this world, that's fine. You are skeptical more and more. And then finally you can see both. Because this world already exists. So you can see both. I can move with your train of thought and understand that. But I still feel like even in doing that, I'm still moving in a mundane realm. Sure, that's true. Rather than... That's why we have to push ourselves to practice anyway. Looking at my ancestors, even though we don't like it, we have to push ourselves to practice. In order to practice samadhi, in order to stay in samadhi anyway. Sea world. Well, being in the sea world doesn't mean you can't enjoy the game world. Sometimes I get the

[21:11]

implication that people in the sea world don't encourage you to go out and enjoy the game world. I mentioned that for sure there is strength to live. Joy to be allowed to live. But this is still delusion. Delusion. You must be free from strength and joy. Then you can really get joy and strength. That is. You have to come back here. And then if you come back here, then you can go once more again. You can participate in A and B world. Okay? So people in sea can go to A for a good dinner and back to sea? Check out for a couple hours. Yeah. For him, it doesn't matter.

[22:15]

He doesn't matter. It depends on the people who look at you. Okay? That's it. People look at you and judge, evaluate, thinking in that way. Oh, he enjoys dinner. That's it. But he just eats dinner. That's it. Then sometimes consciousness, one consciousness coming up and blinking, you know, yellow. Then, oh, enjoy. That's it. Next moment, light, flashing light coming up. Oh, I shouldn't forget it. I shouldn't attach to it. Just eat. It's not a robot. Many feelings coming up. But as a whole, his life so-called eating dinner is just eating dinner. Then if somebody from the outside then if people feel that, you know, he is enjoying,

[23:17]

he is not enjoying. But it is. It depends on everyone. Actually, he doesn't care. Just like a frog. Yes. Yes. That is real emptiness. But still you can experience emptiness here. Yes. How are you convinced that Dogen is actually in C instead of right close to the edge there? Actually, no edge.

[24:21]

No edge. No edge. Of course. Good. How can you erase the edge? Be Samadhi. Be Samadhi. Then the edge is erased. I can think that now Dogen is in C, but when he was writing the Shobo Genzo, I think he was in the other realm. Sure. But he is talking about this world from here. Not from here. That's why his word is very bright, sharp. And very simple. No extra word. His word is not everyday word. I say the other day, ground word. He uses very ground word. That's why it's pretty hard to understand

[25:22]

for us. That's why even this one shi zen master this poem is very difficult to understand. That's why Dogen Zenjin commented on this and then helped us to understand more, deeply one shi zenji's poem. Then finally he makes another poem. That is the conclusion of his commentary on one shi zenji's poem. Not the difference, same meaning, but his poem, his commentary really supports, helps us to understand one shi zenji's teaching in a very deep sense. Very deep sense. That's why Dogen Zenjin mentions in the last, we should understand his poem like this. Means like his commentary

[26:24]

and his poem. And then if you look at the box, then you can see this kind of word. But without this explanation of this word, it's very difficult to understand that one. That's why I mention today. When there are koans in the Blue Cliff Record, when you lecture on those and you say things like the truth can't be spoken and always it's, you know, there are these actions that people can't say what the truth is. Is that because it's C? C itself. C is not the

[27:25]

that which is, that which it is utterable. But that which it is going to say. According to the Dogen, ken means to see. Toku means attain. So attain seeing means with the whole body and mind we have to anyway see it. See. Instead of utter something, explain, say something about in a word, anyway we have to see with the whole body and mind. That is ken, toku. So C word is not something you can explain but something to be allowed to see. That is samadhi. So then, Dogen's consciousness

[28:28]

aside from concept in the form of words was maintained in C. But once he reduced it to writing he moved into the realm of B. B and A. Constantly. In and out. In and out. That's why it's complicated. That's why most people are very confused if they read Dogen's works. But basically he is always talking about A and B from here. For instance, not relating to affairs is knowing. Something like that. Knowing is not something coming from by particular practice. But not relating to

[29:30]

affairs is simultaneously knowing. So knowing and also not relating to affairs are not different. So he comments like that. Means you have to put yourself in the proper place. It is a knowing because it's not usual knowing because you are allowed to know. If you put a certain place. So that is so-called not relating to affairs. It's simultaneously knowing. Is that clear? we express

[30:38]

universe with a circle. But that circle because we have to use a certain space. Then we create a circle in order to express the universe. But the universe itself is a circle with no frame. There is no frame anyway. We are kind of working in the realm of wisdom. Things we can know. Like the chart of the circle. So that we are working in the B world. But actually there is also the C world present even if we aren't really aware of it or attentive to it.

[31:39]

The C world is always happening. So in a certain sense even though we aren't thinking or speaking from the C world the C world is still happening. That's why I told you in the intimations always doubt, whatever kind of doubt you have always you doubt. Doubt is still going in the realm of C. On another sense Mother Teresa and all those other people also are standing up at C but they maybe aren't speaking verbally or it's a little different. Right. That's why people don't understand. That's why Dogen Zenji leads you to put this world first. That's why just sitting. Just sitting because this world is continually digesting. Even though you put a certain form, form will dissolve. What do you mean? This is Samadhi. So all you have to do is just sit down.

[32:41]

That's it. That's why people Dogen Zenji mentions Shikantaga. Not necessary to bring anything particular in order to reach this way or in order to erase this world. No. It is extra. Do you understand that one? That's why Dogen Zenji and the Buddha's ancestors put you here constantly. That is difficult we can't accept because we don't understand it. Because we live always here. Mundane. Is that clear? Yes. Yes. Very easy. Very subtle. Right. That's why yes, that's true. That's why guidance and ancestors and teaching is very important. And also, you have to do it.

[33:42]

You have to practice and concentrate and contemplate and think deeply. Anyway, you have to do it. Okay? What is that like in the Fukara of Zenji? I think I understand the two lines. Yes. There are lots of things he mentions there. Yes. In terms of this sense, and then read once more again Dogen's works. Then you can see a little bit more clearly. Okay? Okay.

[34:23]

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