When I first was attracted to the practice of Zen, it was by hearing stories of people interacting in daily life in a way that I might call beautiful, seemed beautiful to me. And then as I read more about Zen, which has something to do with these people that I've read about, I've heard about people having these enlightenment experiences where they sometimes feel suddenly and very happy about feeling released.

[01:04]

And although that didn't interest me too much, those stories, now I see the stories that interested me was the way people act after they're released. The release was, and I didn't have anything against it, but it didn't attract me, just people like jumping up and down and crying and laughing and getting patted on the back and stuff like that. But then, when I heard about how some people could act after they're released, I thought that was beautiful. So, in one sense, the Buddha way, the middle way, starts, the actual noble starts with enlightenment, and then this enlightenment then goes forward to make a Buddha. The enlightenment then works in the world, practicing virtue, until it is realized.

[02:25]

So, in other words, the beginning of the path of a Buddha is enlightenment, strictly speaking. But then there's this long path of development of beauty, after that, which culminates in a Buddha. But the enlightenment is early on. It's at the beginning of the path, the eightfold path. It's at the beginning of the path. And the Buddha Shakyamuni was enlightened in many past previous lifetimes. He met Buddhas before. He also met enlightened people before. One of the Buddhas predicted him to be a Buddha. But he wasn't a Buddha in his previous lives.

[03:27]

Just in his final life. So in a sense nirvana is the beginning of the practice, not the end. And in the story I kind of brought up the last class, the story of Gayata meeting Kumara Labdha, where Gayata talks about the laws of causation, of current cause and effect, because he sees his parents, who are faithful Buddhists and well-born, who are miserable, and he sees his neighbors who are

[04:40]

you know, in really bad shape, you know, they're born into a low class, and all the difficulties of being born into an outcast class, and they're happy. Just doesn't see, doesn't understand how... Cause and effect doesn't seem to make sense to him. He receives the teaching of karmic retribution in three times, and at the end of the story, what happens at the end of the story? Huh? He becomes an ancestor. No. What episode is this story in, Billy? No. Well, in a sense, he relinquishes doubt. He stops doubting the teaching of karmic cause and effect at the end of that instruction. So that's a story which Dogen brings up in the fascicle of karmic causation three times. There's a story about one of our ancestors who looks at the world and doesn't quite see how the teaching of karmic causation is working, and his teacher points out to him more about the teaching.

[05:58]

He gets over the doubt. Generally speaking, when you doubt, the recommended thing to do in response to it is study more, consult with the teacher, you often check scriptural authority because when you're in doubt, you're probably at that time to directly experience or by reasoned analysis verify the teaching. So you're in doubt. So unless you can actually meditate more deeply, then usually it's good to go to authority at that time to get a little help. And then you can go work on reasoned study and direct experience of the teachings. So in this case he was doubting. This is a person, by the way, who was predicted by the Buddha to be an ancestor, meaning another person who was predicted by the Buddha to be an ancestor.

[07:02]

And even this person who was predicted to be an ancestor and became Indian ancestor had doubt about karmic causation. So if you have doubt about karmic causation, Some ancestors were like you are. And then they inquired about their doubt and got over it. That's the story about him. And then in the collection called the collection of the record of the transmission, it's called Denko Roku by keizan-jokin-dayo-sho, in the transmission of the light. Also, these two ancestors are in that story, too. But the story in there is a story which follows this one. It's up by Kumara Labdha saying to Gayathri, Well, now that you've gotten over doubt about the law of causation, you know, that's good, but you have not yet clarified

[08:11]

you know, mind and... You haven't clarified the law of cause and effect. So then they have a conversation and it gets clarified. So those two stories make a nice pair, you see. One, he has a doubt about cause and effect, gets over it. But next the teacher says, okay, now you're over it, now let's... And it becomes clear. And then he goes bing. Then he goes... Then he has this... He achieves knowledge, great knowledge. Now, this great knowledge he attains, ladies and gentlemen, is not quite the same as a Buddha. It is enlightenment. And then he starts his... his nirvana in action, activity. So I also just proposed... So I wrote on the board here... Some of you can't see it, but it's kind of nice because there's three columns, and at the bottom of each column it says, cause and effect.

[09:29]

And... Kazan gave me a Han and asked me to write on it. So I did. And the first thing in Chinese, and I wrote, birth and death is the great matter. You've heard that expression? So you could... Karmic causation in birth and death. is the great matter. It's not just birth and death. I've been caught in the karmic causal process of birth and death. That's the great matter. So, the great matter. The main problem is causation. The main problem is cause and effect. And when we end, we have resolved the main problem.

[10:43]

So the first column there on the left, as you go to the left, this column is Deep Faith in Cause and Effect. So that's another fascicle that Dogen wrote but didn't finish. But deep faith in cause and effect, in a sense, is also... Does it remind you of something else that we often speak of in the Buddhadharma? Deep faith in cause and effect. Yeah, that's part of it. She said confession and repentance. Hmm? And right view, because right view is the view that there is cause and effect, that there is karmic cause and effect.

[11:50]

Some people might not even think there's cause and effect, but even materialists might think there's cause and effect, but that there's karmic cause and effect, that your intentions But, you know, the intention you have right now in your mind, that intention has consequence. That statement is a statement of you. Your every intention in every moment has consequence. These significant matters. And then there can be deep faith in that teaching. Lines are lines from the famous koan, the wild fox koan of the Zen tradition. And so the middle line says, not obscuring cause and effect.

[12:58]

And the line in the column on the right says, not falling into cause and effect. Not falling into? not falling into cause and effect. So, deep faith in cause and effect, not obscuring cause and effect, or not blinding and not falling into cause and effect. Yes? What does it mean to fall into cause and effect? Well, we'll be discussing that, what that means. Yes? Right now? Do you want to pass it around now or should we wait? That was pretty clear. Kazan will show you the Han later. ...about the Han now.

[14:01]

Now it is not as inscribed. Okay, so, I would say, just start off by saying, deep faith and cause and effect is just about the same as nirvana. But there's a condition for it to be the same. And the condition for it to be the same would be that there would also be a second line, namely that

[15:04]

that would not be obscuring a blindness to cause and effect. So to live in cause and effect, cause and effect of birth and death, to live in samsara with deep faith, in the causal processes of samsara, in other words, deep faith that it would be good to be mindful of, that in a way is mundane right view, at least. Nirvana is living in samsara That's what it is. It's living there in karmic cause and effect.

[16:06]

But the definition, another definition, or basic definition of nirvana, the basic definition of nirvana is that nirvana is peace. So nirvana is live in karmic cause and effect peacefully, with a peaceful heart. and then to live again in karmic cause and effect with a peaceful heart. So deep faith in cause and effect is peace when also there is not obscuring cause and effect. And not obscuring comes from or is based on deep faith in cause and effect. By studying the cause and effect of all of our actions, we come to have no blinding to the cause and effect.

[17:20]

Then we are then we are living nirvana. We are living peacefully in karmic cause and effect. And then we don't fall into cause and effect. We're living in cause and effect, but not because we fall into it. but because we believe cause and effect. And thereby having a chance to not be blind to cause and effect is the way. So to live in cause and effect is not nirvana unless we live in cause and effect with deep belief in meditating on cause and effect, and that we actually now see cause and effect.

[18:46]

Then we don't fall compulsively into cause and effect. So those three lines, you can go... to three and then back to, from three, back to one. So first deep faith in cause and effect, then not being blind to cause and effect, then not falling into cause and effect, and because you don't fall into cause and effect, you keep practicing deep faith. And not just theoretically, I have deep faith in cause and effect, you actually live there. And you actually are totally settled. The Sanskrit word I've heard, etymology for the Sanskrit word for faith is to sink down, settle down. So you, deep faith in causing effect, you need to deeply settle down into the world of birth and death, which is

[19:59]

permanent, flying by fast. You're settled in that world of high-speed change, high-speed changing life of cause and effect, birth and death. You're settled there and you can be deeply settled because you don't fall and you don't fall into it because you're not blind to it and you're not blind to it because you believe it's good to study it. So you're peacefully continuing a process of development in moral and virtue from the enlightenment of seeing cause and effect. And I also wrote down a while early in the practice, I don't know if I said this to you, but I wrote down chaos, control, and care.

[21:12]

But I've had a fourth now, causation, chaos, care, and control. In playing with that, I would say, you know, when people sense chaos, they want to control. in the sense of causation, they want to be careful. But they also sense in causation they might want to control. So if I say, you know, if you're upright in the midst of birth and death, you will find the practice will occur and you will realize the fundamental point.

[22:17]

So then one might want to control oneself into that causal process of being upright and being able to not obscure cause and effect So that would be, if you hear the consequences of being upright and you believe in that causal process, then you might want to control that causal process so that you can enjoy the fruits of being upright in the midst of cause and effect. But control is actually something that's actually bubbling up from your long-term sense of chaos, of lack of control, which you've got plenty of. You do have a lack of control. I know you have a lack of control, but you're contributing to the lack of control.

[23:24]

you have a lack of control and a lack of being able to be separate from contributing to the process of not being in control. So, given that, if you hear about something good, you control that. So, causation actually should be connected to care rather than control. Well, then you'd like to be kind of like in control of caring. So, Causation and care go nicely together, and control goes nicely together too. Control tells you it's something you shouldn't do in relationship to causation. In fact, control is something you can't do in relationship to causation because causation doesn't have a control. Causation is selfless. And as you open to the selflessness of causation, you might be afraid that because it's selfless, it's chaotic.

[24:33]

And then as you see the selflessness, you might then try to get control. But when you're a good person who's trying to get control, when you see the appearance of chaos, there's consequences of trying to get control, which you won't like. Nobody will. Well, maybe in the showroom. Those are addictions. So how can we care in a selfless process? There it is. And we can care in a selfless process, it's just that we can also lose faith, jiggle around, and switch from trying to care in a selfless process over to control in a selfless process. And we can't control ourselves out of trying to control either, but that can happen.

[25:37]

So when you have deep faith, that opens the door to start seeing selflessness. Deep faith in causation opens your eyes to selflessness, to no self, to no self in action, to no self in process, to a process of selflessness. it opens you to that, and as you open to it, then I'm warning you, you may then try to control, but I'm saying, watch out and try, not try, but anyway, listen to the teaching of not trying to control when you're open to self-control. If you can open to it without trying to control, then you will not, then there will be no obscuring of cause and effect, and then there will be no falling into causal effect. They will just be living in causal effect as an act of faith. Not as an act, but as an act of faith.

[26:42]

I want to live in causal effect because I'm a nirvana guy. I like nirvana, and I want other people to join in nirvana. And the place we do nirvana is in samsara. That's where we practice it. We show that there can be peace. in the realm of karmic causation. I'm totally into that. That's my faith in karmic causation. That's the place to work. And the more I attend to it, the more I see it selflessly, the clearer it is, and the more I can dive back in with everybody, pull everybody into the peaceful cultivation of moral beauty, in the midst of the delusion of birth and death. The whole process, by the way, is a delusion. It really is totally ungraspable.

[27:46]

And when it's ungraspable, you can't fall into it anymore. But you can dive into it, you can dive into an ungraspable process, because, you know, You're just going to die. You don't even... You're driven by your interest in peace. So, one other... This is just a case, okay? And also, one other thing I wanted to mention is that I think there's two kinds of, not just two, but there's two kinds of karmic effect which I wanted to distinguish. And one is, in Sanskrit, one's called vipaka-pala, and the other one's called nishanda-pala. Pala means fruit or result. Nishanda means even flowing, and vipaka means different, I think, different maturing.

[28:54]

So the... fruit of karma is experience, or feeling, or sensation. And the even flowing result of karma is more karma. Hmm? Pardon? Thinking. What? You said more karma. Yeah. Thinking. The consequence of thinking is thinking in the vishandha-phala way, in the even-flowing result of thinking is thinking. Thinking has the consequence of thinking, which is even-flowing fruit, but it also has the consequence of what we call retribution or different maturing. Because a feeling is not a karma. Feeling is not an action.

[30:03]

The field of action has feeling in it, but the field of action is the whole intention of the moment, not just the feeling. And so that's a different material. Now again, not all feelings are the rvipaka-pala. Not all feelings are due to past action, as I cited in that one text of Sivaka. But, although not all are feeling, one type, important type of result of karma is feeling or experience or sensation. The way you feel, the way you sense, the way you experience, that the quality of your experience is a different, is a fruit that's different from the cause.

[31:06]

Cause is action, the fruit is a sensation. But sometimes action leads I can't distinguish the two types. The definitions are clearly . So Kathy's getting lost. So there's two types of consequence of chlamydia I'm drawing attention to. One, flowing. And that would be a consequence which is similar to... where the effect is similar to the cause. It's a consequence or it's a karma? That's another part. Karma... Because I thought karma was not a result, it was a... Karma is action, is my understanding, and not a result. Oh, I see. That's a good point.

[32:09]

So, karma is an even-flowing fruit. But maybe in this case, you could also just say that your current karma is conditioned by past karma. So the way you think now is conditioned by the way you... So in a sense, karma, in that sense, is an effect. But it's not a retribution. It's more of an effect. Because karma is also determined by other factors. And I'm slowing down now just to let that sink in. But you said karma is not a feeling.

[33:12]

So karma itself is not a feeling. Right. But when you... But every... As you have it, you have a feeling. So... I didn't really switch. I'm just saying that every kind of karma is... The karma is your overall state of consciousness. Every state of... And, but, not all those feelings... It's good that you said that, because not all of those feelings are the results of past karma. That's another detail. Every moment has a feeling, but not every feeling is the result of past karma. That's what that sutra says. In the name of the even-flowing karma, is this the... The name of the even flowing in Sanskrit is nishanda-pala. Pala means fruit, nishanda means even flowing.

[34:16]

You can hear it, nishanda. So, I'm just saying now, every moment of consciousness has an intention, and every moment of consciousness has feeling, and feeling is part of the field which is the intention. The intention is your overall including your feelings, which are always there. Not all feelings are the result of past karma. Now, every intention will have consequence, and one type of consequence is the maturing of that tendency, the maturing of the karma. The other is just another karma. So a karma isn't the maturing of a karma. A karma is a new action. but actions depend on past actions. So karma is a condition for future action, and also karma matures as feeling.

[35:19]

But the feeling isn't the karma. You see, when the karma matures, it's not another karma. So a person who's done lots of karma, at some point their karmas could all mature and then do no more karma. It's possible. no more karma which produces feelings." I thought that was going to be a simple little technical point, but... So you said the first, but you didn't reveal the second. The second is that the result is... Vipaka means different, maturing. V means like, V like vivisection. Vijnana, it means to cut or different. So vipaka means different fruit. of different maturing through. So the second type of result is the maturation or the retribution of the action, and that's not another karma. That's a feeling. The way we experience things is sometimes the maturing of karma, but not always.

[36:28]

In some ways, the most important result of karma is that it leads to more karma. But they're both important. So that was what I thought would be a simple kind of important technical distinction. OK. Yeah, let's see. Now we're into the question section, I think. Is that okay if we now open it up to chaos? Actually, I have a lot more to present, but I'm feeling like... Dan should come up here, please. So Daniel, it's easier for Daniel to stand than to sit, right? Well, I thought I understood until you just gave that explanation.

[37:39]

You were saying between the two different types, an example would be say, doing a virtuous act, the two different fruits of that would, one, it's sort of, it's self-actuating that it would be easier to do more similar virtuous acts. So that's the first type. And the second type is that whoever benefits from this virtuous act, that's the second, their benefit, their good feeling is the second type of virtue. That's right, that's right. Thank you. The second type also would be, I would say, technically speaking again, that that would be mundane, kind of mundane right view, in the mundane practice of observing cause and effect, the merit of going back to the point of attachment.

[38:45]

If one doesn't obscure cause and effect, then one is free of collecting the merit of one's good action. Which you might say, well, I don't know if I want that. But actually when you enter in the vastness of causation and you're open to it, you do good which has positive consequences, but the good doesn't come back to you. I mean, it doesn't not come back to you either. It just goes, there's no point of attachment for it. It just, you know, it makes a contribution but doesn't come back to the place where the person thought the action was committed because the person doesn't see things that way anymore. Still a person, but the person is indistinguishable from vast interdependence. So the person is doing all this skillful activity in cause. But the merit of all that skillfulness doesn't come back to the person, because the action wasn't projected from a point of attachment.

[39:51]

But what Daniel said was correct, and it would come back to the person who did it if the person had that point of departure for the action of being, you know... So that would be a situation which would lead to That kind of picture, if continually studying, would open to not obscuring cause and effect. When cause and effect is not obscured, virtue is being developed but nobody owns it. The only people who think that virtue is owned are the people of lesser virtue. Even if they think somebody else owns it, they don't understand very well. That make sense? And Tim, did you have a comment? Yes, Molly? You might have just answered it. So is that what you mean when you say that in tainted right view, karma matures at the point of attachment?

[40:52]

Yes. Or in tainted deep faith in cause and effect, doing wholesome things, you might think that the virtue and the merit comes back to the person who did it. That's the way you would see things. But you wouldn't yet have reached the place of not obscuring cause and effect. When cause and effect isn't obscured, it's like the vast sky. There's just goodness flowing all over the place, but it doesn't belong to anybody. Everybody's doing this amazing thing together. It's all what you see. And then you want to enter cause and effect voluntarily, again, just peacefully observing cause and effect, which is nirvana. Yes? You asked me to remind you... Stephen? You think Stephen's next?

[41:52]

Okay. So I'm just keeping track. Stephen? You started talking in the very beginning about a person who had doubt about cause and effect. Yes, a great person. A great person had doubt about cause and effect. He called him Mahasattva. Isn't that doubt really important? To have that doubt, you have to find the faith? It's important until you don't have it anymore, and then it's like history. You could get to that faith. You really have to doubt, you have to really ask yourself, I guess this is a simple point, but you really have to ask yourself about cause and effect, you have to really dig for it. Well, I think what they mean by doubt is not that you're digging in cause and effect and wondering about it, but that you're kind of thinking, this might be sort of a waste of time. Because you see, this cause and effect doesn't really apply to the world. That's the kind of doubt I think that we have here, is that I hear this teaching, but the world doesn't look like that, so I don't know if I'm going to keep looking at this teaching because it doesn't apply.

[42:57]

You know, maybe I should... This situation of my parents who are born into a good home and who believe in the Buddha Dharma are miserable, and the people next door who have a miserable situation are happy. or who have a very unfortunate poor situation and are considered outcasts, they're happy, so maybe I should find some other way to deal with this rather than studying cause and effect. So then the teacher talks to them and says, oh, okay, now I'll continue to study cause and effect. So digging in cause and effect doesn't mean they doubt it. And that's actually the point. People who are asking questions about cause and effect doesn't mean they're doubt. But that's... It seemed like in that story, though, that if he hadn't been in a situation where his parents were really with it, were suffering and these people who were outcasts were, if he hadn't seen that, he would have had the doubt and he wouldn't have had it clarified.

[44:05]

It was like... Yeah, but he could tell the story a different way, namely that he was... Here's another story. There was a great being who had parents who were like, very wealthy and in good health and Buddha Dharma and thought it was a good deal, but they were miserable. Okay? And the neighbors who were very poor and didn't really believe in Buddhism were really happy. And he looked at that situation and understood cause and effect. That's another story, no doubt. That's another story. That wasn't the next story. In other words, he didn't go through doubt. He just studied the situation and went to the next story. So the teacher said, now you don't doubt anymore. Now that you don't doubt, now let's penetrate the situation. But doubt can be part of the process. In his case, it was. That's not a necessary part of it. Yeah, it's not necessary. This is a mahasattva.

[45:05]

Mahasattva means not just a bodhisattva, but a great bodhisattva. And he had doubt. And he was already predicted. and he had doubt. But in the next part of the story, or the next phase of his history, he doesn't doubt anymore. And so, now let's look, now let's plunge deeper into cause and effect. Part of, so doubt of cause and effect means you're kind of holding back your way. You're looking at cause and, you're looking at the world, you've heard of cause and effect, but you're not sure you really want to look at it. Or another way to put it is, you look at the world and you're not sure you want to look at the boat, you think maybe it'd be better to look at it. You know, like, Rather than look at the driver, you're concerned with getting to Macy's. Rather than look at the shopper, you want to buy something. So now some of you are going to probably go shopping pretty soon, right? After the practice period is over, they're in shopping time. Shopping and keep track of the person while you're shopping. Rather than look at the shore. Wow, look at that stuff.

[46:06]

Wow. That's a moment of doubt and cause and effect. When you stop watching your intention in the glittering world. Okay? Let's see. Then Simon. Simon. Sonia left. I don't know who's next. Simon. Would you say more about the carelessness due to seeing the emptiness in the course of the thought? So he said to say something about carelessness due to emptiness. I said the other day, an immature understanding of emptiness could lead to carelessness. So you see cause and effect, you're studying cause and effect, and you start to see how there's no self there. Okay? This is a sign of progress, that you're starting to see that the process is selfless. You feel the intention

[47:09]

to have a good intention, and you feel good about the intention to have a good intention. You feel the intention to practice virtue, and you feel good about it, and then you see that there's nobody in control of the next intention. There's nobody who can make you feel another one of these good intentions. There's nobody who can make you notice even that there's no self in control. So now you're seeing not only you're seeing cause and effect and seeing and wanting to study it and want to have good intentions, but you're also starting to see there's nobody in control here. And that's even better, and you feel good about that. But then you think, well, if nobody's in control here... What is it? How did I write it? Yeah. By means of not obscuring cause and effect, you may not fall into cause and effect. Or not.

[48:11]

Whatever. You didn't get that one. It's like, fall into cause and effect, not fall into cause and effect, whatever. I mean, there's no self here, so let's just Live it up. In other words, be careless, be reckless, gamble. Let's just take over the Middle East. That should be interesting. Because, you know, whatever. Whatever. So that can happen. Does that make sense that that could happen? It does happen. People who study cause and effect have some insight into Then they think, I can fly! And it's true, they can. Flying is possible. However, that doesn't mean then that when you start flying, you don't continue to have deep faith in cause and effect, now that you realize it's empty.

[49:20]

So you have to check with the traffic control people before you take off. Otherwise you may not land. So you can get reckless when you start realizing the selflessness of cause and effect. And then, if that's clear, I move on to the next point. Is that clear, that you can get reckless when you start seeing it? Yeah? Yes. Yeah. You can be warned many times and then still, when it actually hits, I've heard of this, but those warnings are empty too. I'm so free that the warnings of what might happen when you start feeling free don't even apply. And they don't. And they do. Whatever. So again, there are in the East and the West, We're now in the West, I guess. There are stories that give insight into the selflessness of a situation, who then think they can do anything, and then they do, and then we have harm, you know.

[50:36]

Teachers say, usually we don't do that, but now we can. Usually that's not considered good, but in my case, it's all right. And then people copy them. Maybe it is all right with them, and then people copy them. Like a lot of people, Kali Trungpa, who had sex with most of his students, was drunk. And not saying anything about him, but He seemed to be all right, but his students, it didn't work for his students. One of his students I know, he said, we tried it too, it didn't work for us. And his successor, you know, aged and transmitted it to some of the other people because of the thinking. And he said, I think that was his confession, that he thought he could do anything. So this can happen. through commitment to moral discipline and studying cause and effect, your eyes clear.

[51:46]

And when your eyes clear, you think anything's possible and that some harm occurs. So then Simon asks, the next question after that is, what's the antidote? Immature a gross understanding of selflessness, and the antidote is a subtle and complete understanding of emptiness. Or another way to put it is, and that may take more than a few seconds, so just immediately give up that understanding of emptiness that makes you think you can do anything and go back to studying moral cause and effect. And if you can't go back to study it, you're really in trouble. I'm not going to give this up and go back to that. That's what it looks like. So give it up and go back to study it, and then it may come back again. But when it comes back, if again you feel like, I don't have to study moral cause and effect anymore, then drop the selflessness.

[52:50]

It is a selflessness that you're looking at, but it's a gross selflessness. It's not totally wrong, it's just gross selflessness. So drop it and go back again to carefulness. Would you say that's control? No. I said this, but I don't think you can control yourself. And then you hear me say this, or you hear somebody say that to you, and you really say, drop it and go back to... studying moral cause and effect, that person might not think you're in control of being able to do that. But they say it to you. So I would say to somebody, drop it. But I know that they can't do it, necessarily. And I've met people who get in that situation, drop it, and they can't do it sometimes. Sometimes they do. Sometimes you say, drop it, and it drops. But isn't that out of control? It's just that sometimes I do X and Y happens.

[53:51]

But other times, it doesn't. But then it does happen when they get to the emergency room. It drops. There's conditions, but I wish it would drop. It's the conditions that control it, not the self in the process. So I'm saying these things to you, and hearing myself saying these things, and saying these things have consequence, but I'm not in control over us continuing to practice. I say upright, I say be ready, but that doesn't make you be upright. But it's a condition for you being upright and it's a condition for you not being upright. All the words you've heard about practice are conditions for you when you're not practicing and when you're practicing. All the words you've heard about being lazy and stupid are conditions for you practicing too. Everything's conditions for what we do. And yet, here we are talking about deep faith and causing a fuck.

[54:53]

So, studying it, the sky opens, you feel like, I'm willing to live in this mess. Totally. I'll just study it and study it and study it. It's so happy. That's all I got to do. That's fine. But then, actually, I don't have to do that. I don't have to study, I don't have to practice. Now it's too far. Now it's time to go back to... Remember when you were talking about how important it was to observe cause and effect? Go back there and forget about this freedom you're feeling, the real freedom. So, I say this too, just to... No, I won't say it. I'll fix my questions. Not that many. Okay, I'm going to say the names, okay? So I remember. They're mostly over here, right?

[55:55]

Kind of quiet over there today? Okay. Marco, and there's Ken, and there's Kazan, and there's Jeff, and there's Max, and there's Sarah, and there's Jerry. Okay? I think... Marco is... Yes, Marco? So, I'm wondering if you can help me with this question about feeling, not being, some feeling not being the result of karma. Yeah. And what I did, Kumarabhadra said to that, he said that, would that have helped him understand and have deep faith and confidence? Because I feel like when I hear it, it shakes my faith and confidence.

[56:59]

The reason that your parents are suffering may not have to do with karma. It may have to do with something else. Yes. Would that have helped him have deep faith and confidence? That might have. It's possible. I think sometimes that would help. Well, yeah, that might help some people, to show them some other causal factors. They're still meditating on causation, it's just not moral causation. Like the change of seasons isn't moral causation. But it affects the way we feel too. And living in a certain environment where there's pollutants, that can cause our body to get disoriented in certain ways. But that's not a moral causation. That's a, I would say, non-moral causal factor. But it can lead to the of pain or pleasure.

[58:03]

And did you say that the way you experience something can sometimes be not due to karma? But if I'm just thinking about, like, the example of, you know, you have somebody who's in a horrible situation, but they feel hesitant. It's like, is it the way that they're experiencing it that due to the past kind of... So what somebody else views as a horrible situation is they have a positive sensation in that situation, and that positive sensation could be due to past karma or not, either way. If they have a positive sensation, and they don't get happy about the positive sensation, that probably is due to past karma, because that would require training, that you have a positive sensation but you don't get happy about it.

[59:17]

You just have a positive sensation. That way of dealing with it is a new karma. But some positive sensations are not the Buddha said, are not due to karma. And it's also negative sensations. A person in a situation that you would consider really difficult might have a negative sensation. However, due to past karma, they might not get unhappy about that. So their even-mindedness in relationship to them having a painful sensation, that would be, I think, due to past karma or past cultivation. By experience, I was talking a synonym for feeling or sensation. And feelings are retribution, but not just retribution. See, next I think was Ken.

[60:18]

What we did last night with respect to moral principles because the moon reminded us trying to do it again, was a collective exercise in expression of caring. Now, you can hear what you said, right? Pardon? You can hear what you just said, right? Yes. Could everybody else hear him? No. Isn't that interesting? You could hear what you said, but they couldn't. Oh, it sounded loud to me. Come over here. And this has to do with understanding the reason for a lot of the formality in what we do in the Zendo. What we did last night, because the moon reminded us that it's time to do it again, with respect to our moral principles, was an expression, exercise in caring, within a context where we recognize that there's no control there.

[61:31]

Does that seem right? I don't know if everybody was unborn with that, but I think that the example of doing something in the world of change and suffering, we get together and do something to express our care. Now, maybe some of the Dolans were into control. I don't know. But most of us were just expressing our care, probably. We're just there to say, we care. We appreciate these bodhisattvas. We care about these precepts. We care about our karma. You know, we care about the Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. We care. But I think a lot of us probably didn't have much sense of that last night was an exercise in control. Right? There wasn't a big controlling thing happening. However, in fact, although we weren't under control, we behaved pretty well. Right? Nobody insulted anybody for half an hour. People were generally respectful of each other, right?

[62:34]

Well, that's what you think. That's what I think, yeah. What do you think? People wore white socks. Yeah. Wearing white socks is an expression of caring, not an expression of control. We're not trying to control people into wearing white socks because actually some people weren't wearing white socks. They were wearing tabi and besu. And some people were And gray. And gray. And some people were also barefooted and had socks on, you know, and had toppers on. So we had quite a bit of variety, but a lot of care was expressed, but maybe there was very little sense of control. I don't know. Was anybody trying to control the group? Nobody is going to nip to it, right? So I would agree that for a lot of us that was an expression of care. Wearing those socks, the reason why you're wearing them is to show enough, what do you call it, to care enough to give the very best.

[63:42]

To care enough, you care so much that you wear white socks. Why don't you have to borrow a pair of white socks, because you actually don't have a pair of white socks, and your white socks end up looking a bit grey, or they have champion-like proper clothes, and they're even cheap there. Is it the same thing? Like, I wore white socks because I happened to have a pair of white socks that I thought were kind of appropriate. And I was told. But I didn't think it would have made my attention. When I was a little kid, one of the stories was a story called The Littlest Angel. Do you know this story? I guess it's an American story. The Littlest Angel. So anyway, the angels are having kind of a birthday party for God or something. I don't know. Is that what it is? A birthday party for God? Or it's a birthday party for... or something, a birthday party for bodhisattvas, and all these angels bring these, you know, celestial gifts, right, to present at the party.

[64:53]

And the littlest angel, all she can find is like a little rock, a rock or something like that, or a thimble. Looking around, what present can I bring? And of course she brings it, but, you know, because it's so sincere, the recipient feels somehow equally or even more moved by the effort of this gift. So it is the intention. If you're trying to control the recipient into thinking that you gave the best gift, then that's sort of what... I don't think... I would guess it wasn't much of that going on, like somebody... that people were up there like thinking, you know, I hope the Buddhists think I'm the most sincere person. But it's... of frustration and chanting. I hope that somebody thinks I'm really like a great practitioner. I don't know if anybody thought like that. But it felt like everybody that was there was somewhat just expressing care and very little control

[65:56]

And however, it wasn't a good situation, because when the situation starts, when you start to see, if you, during that ceremony, started to see the selflessness of it, then you might have also, when you see selflessness, that can look to some people like chaos. And then you might have said to your neighbors, hold on to me, that's scary, and try to control it. even though it was actually that you're opening to the selflessness and the vastness of what we're doing. If you saw the zendo roof lift off and the bodhisattvas actually hovering up there, then you might say, I finally didn't get control. I finally did make those bodhisattvas actually come here and show up all this time. So yeah, I think that's a good example, Ken. And I just disagree to that point. I thought totally that I'm the whole time under control.

[66:58]

When I'm saying something, I feel that this is under control. And that's why I'm always confused a bit, like, okay, this is suggestions to listen to the teaching, and then being, okay, they're not under control of it. If I go to the Zen, though, I'm controlling going to the Zen, though. If I put one step in front of me, I'm controlling, putting one step in front of the other. And if I'm using my voice now or chanting there, I feel I'm controlling it. That's why I'm a bit confused when you say, was there anybody controlling it? Was there anybody? I don't know if I said it was any of the controlling. I wouldn't have really asked that question. No feeling that... But it was anybody who was feeling that they were controlling and trying to control, and we fortunately do have one person like that. Thank you for coming, although I couldn't control you to be here.

[68:00]

Thank you. We need at least one like you. Now, even though you're also controlling yourself into caring, No. I never thought about that. It's fine. Even better. She thought that, of course, you were controlling yourself into caring. But you weren't. You're really out of control. You are, like, out of control. I can't control you into not controlling. You're, like, you think you're controlling me. Yeah. You think you're controlling me. And actually, I didn't control him into coming to class. I didn't say, come and say this, or I didn't do an interview this morning trying to find somebody who thought that he was controlling during the ceremony and then had him come. I didn't. But I'm very happy that you came, even though I couldn't control you to do this, right after Ken did this other thing. So I'm just, you know, honored.

[69:01]

But you don't have any feeling for controlling what you respond now to me either or to the group here? I mean, I understand you say you don't have any feeling for controlling me, but you don't have any feeling for controlling yourself either. Not right now, but if I get scared, then I do. Not to say you're scared. And not to tell you that to try to control you from getting angry at me. I'm just kidding, you know. Is that too fast? When I'm not afraid, I'm not trying to control. When you give me a gift, I just say, thank you. And I don't say thank you to control you to give me another gift or stop giving you gifts. Thank you, thank you, that's enough. Thank you, thank you, that's enough. Okay, that's enough, that's enough. When I'm not afraid of being overwhelmed, then I'm not trying to control.

[70:03]

And also I don't think I'm controlling either. When you feel overwhelmed, you don't think you're in control. But part of what I appreciate is that you express yourself, which I'm not in control of your expressions. So I'm happy that you're saying you felt you were in control, but I also asked if you were also expressing carelessness. I ask you that now. And I'm not trying to control you to answer you, but please answer. Quickly. Answer! What's a yes? Yeah. He said yes, he did care last night. And to me, it looks like you care a lot of the time around this joint. Do you know what around this joint means? Hmm? Anyway, around the place. It looks to me like you do care, It looks to me like you are careful, but now I find out that actually, in the midst of your carefulness, you're also trying to control.

[71:10]

So now, I'm coming to get you. Are you trying to control? Please stop. But I didn't say that to get you to stop. Do you believe that? You said it to control. Well, I really don't think I can, you know. And so when they're not under my control, it's like... For me, he's a caring guy that's not under my control. Okay, let's see. Next was... How's that? You put it in front. Hey! You put it in front of people. What's going on? Bring it up. She said, stop. Wow. Stand up, please, sir. I just have a question.

[72:11]

Does this work? Yeah, it does. It was cool. Not in the audience, yes? No, no, no. I'm really stuck on this feeling thing you were talking about earlier. And my question is, what is a mature feeling? Suppose a feeling. What is a what? A mature feeling. A mature feeling? Yeah. Well, in this particular case, the feelings I was talking about were positive, negative, and neutral. Those aren't mature feelings, those are just feelings. But feelings are a maturation. Sometimes a past action. So mature is another word for fruit and result. Okay, so it's not a process. It's not mature like the mature image. Okay. Jeff.

[73:17]

Hi, Jeff. I'll leave it here. It's there. You're here, too. This is my shop. That's Jeff. This even brings up this issue of control. I think it draws lots of attention because, I like to use the word retribution even. It has that sense of fire and brimstone about it. And it's just... Do you believe? I guess it goes on a scrunch zone there. I hear a lot of the questions around this too. It's like people are saying, what can I do? What can I do? Yeah, it's sort of like it seems like

[74:19]

All we can do is look at it. And that's another point, too. You were talking a lot about scanning. Can I say something? Sure. You said, all you can do is look at it. Oh, yeah, not that I'm in control of that. Yeah. But if we are in control of looking at it, if we do look at it, that is our salvation. And most people do not look at it if they don't have faith in looking at it. Most people are walking around not paying attention to the cause and effect. And that's the problem. People are doing things without being aware that there's going to be consequences. Everything you do is being careful. When you have faith in cause and effect, you will be careful. But you're not in control of being careful. But if you can be careful, that's because you have faith in cause and effect as being the great matter. So what can be an opportunity to learn a Buddha way?

[75:25]

If you have faith in watching the causal process. Right. But then we go in that faith that is given to you. And it's given to me. Right. So I have causal process. Yeah. So there's another point. It's selflessly given to me. Right. So it's a difficult thing to accept, of course. Can you exemplify that? You know, the thing that people don't just study. I think another thing that happens, at least for me, is that you say, oh, what I did was just good, or there's an evaluation of the positive or not positive actions in your story. A guy's like, these people are bums, and they're feeling good, you know? Making all these conclusions. I think it's important to study something versus . Yeah.

[76:31]

It's deep faith. It's not deep grasping. Deep faith is, you know. That's undone. . Deep faith to study. I believe. . My question has to do with what you're talking about. And so you have this gross enlightenment, but then you stop looking at cause and effect. You stop studying cause and effect. That would be gross enlightenment. I'm not saying that he had gross enlightenment. Okay. I'm just saying. Just that he was gross. I'm just saying. He drank. And he had sex with a student, but he didn't lie about having sex with the students. He was hiding it. But I'm just saying that what the students probably do, it didn't work for them.

[77:35]

So I'm not judging him. I'm telling you that he set that example, and some of the students copied it, and then some of the students told me it didn't work for them. I'm not talking about him, I'm talking about them, various causes of death. They saw that this didn't work for them. I think a lot of them don't practice that anymore. Well, I was interested in what you were saying about gross enlightenment versus subtle enlightenment. Gross understanding. Gross understanding of emptiness. Gross understanding of emptiness. So it wouldn't be... Because I guess what I thought of was practice enlightenment. I know that... Would it be like if you're actually... I would say that enlightenment isn't really enlightenment. Enlightenment would be a correct understanding of emptiness. And that can get deeper. I mean, I wouldn't call it enlightenment if it didn't go away. that you would see that you have to continue to .

[78:40]

This could be some understanding of actually see the selflessness, that gross form sets that you would think moral discipline is no longer necessary of the of . Okay, I have to confess I'm a doubter. And I'm a doubter because I don't... You're confessing. I'm confessing. I'm confessing that I'm okay with cause and effect.

[79:43]

I'm on board with that. But... Do I have to accept past lives and rebirth? Is there a way that I can practice with cause and effect without having to buy the whole thing? Yes. However, if you obstruct or resist the teaching about past lives and future lives, about rebirth, that will eventually cause that will cause a kind of like, there'll be these partitions in your study that'll keep bumping into limitations. But you can start studying cause and effect while still resisting those teachings. But can't I be different every minute? You know, I'm not the same person.

[80:44]

So my lives can be happening as I'm living my life without having to go through being buried and being born again with somebody else. That's right, that's right. Because it's birth and death in every moment. That's right. If you let me have that one, then I can be a change in that. That's totally fine. And you can study cause and effect in that situation. And it's real study. Because, Ken, there's a mystery about cause and effect, too. I mean, some bad thing happens to me. I sit in a meditation. I don't find anything that I can see in my actions that were connected to this. Very good. And I don't understand why this happened to me. Oh, my, what did it happen to me? But I could just say it's a mystery. I don't understand. Yeah, right. You can just say that. And let go of it. That's fine. That's great. Yeah. I can do that too? Definitely. I don't have to worry about how I was 300 years ago.

[81:45]

Okay. Yeah, it's fine. Now, this is an example of like when the diamond does not go in your body, you think it's all right. But the diamond does feel like she's starting to feel like something's happening, but she doesn't exactly know why. Yeah. So she's starting to realize that in the realm that she's watching her life, something's going on here that she doesn't have the whole story in. No, and I don't control it either. Yeah, right. So she's starting to realize that she's in a circle of water. She's studying causation. She's studying her life constantly changing. That's good. And she's also sensing that her picture of what's going on is limited. Yes, yes. So you're starting to open up to that. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of them. When we completely accept how limited our view of cause and effect is, while we're living in a circle of water of cause and effect, although we're still living in a circle of water, we open up to the whole ocean, and we realize the whole ocean is realized as our circle of water.

[83:06]

I think that, I think that Timo has He asked me to revile him to save him yesterday, but I couldn't think how I was going to do it. He's out there now, reviling. You've been here for almost three months, and you're still told... Trolling? I mean, what are you doing? Yeah, you are so deluded for good. Get it together. Come on, let go. He said she's trying to control the environment.

[84:23]

He wanted to be reviled. Maybe you could be reviled by me. Or skillfully. I didn't control him to say it. Did you hear that? Deliver. Did you hear that? Revile backwards is deliver. Revile. I didn't explain here. It's okay, Max. Okay, so the statement, the deep faith statement, and causal effect is about the same as Nirvana. I'm having a little problem with that just because maybe it's the word Nirvana I'm thinking as extinguished rather than peace. I think the word Nirvana means what's extinguished is bonded.

[85:25]

Okay, and suffering. The flame of suffering goes out. So now you're living in the world with everybody in peace, at ease. Okay, but could you be not at ease and still have the deep faith? They are having trouble with that statement, that deep faith and cause and effect isn't as well. I don't know, I'm just having trouble. Yeah, I'm saying deep faith and cause and effect together with not being more obscure and amazing. It's different. So Nirvana is living and causing effect. Peace, it keeps. And the reason why there's peace is because you see causing effect. So you extinguish that delusion. Extinguish the delusions of not causing effect, yeah. And you can come to being able to clearly see or not obscure cause and effect through deep faith and cause and effect.

[86:34]

If you come over here and look at the board. Through deep faith and cause and effect, come to not obscure cause and effect, not a steering cause and effect, you no longer follow the cause and effect. You enter cause and effect with deep faith once you don't obscure it. You plunge into cause and effect, you plunge into samsara peacefully, fearlessly, joyfully, because you're not obscuring it anymore. So not falling into cause and effect, in a way, is what we call dropping off body and mind. And because you drop off body and mind, You can practice cause and effect as nirvana. That's nirvana, the thing you want to cause and effect. You understand what I'm saying? I'm not agreeing with it at this minute. What's the problem? Well, I think that nirvana is actually a complete shift of your view of samsara, but maybe I know your example.

[87:39]

Yeah, it's a shift from... If I were just a racist child character, Then we have obscured cause and effect, looks like birth and death. If you don't see, if you're blind to cause and effect, intentionally ignore it, or just you see it in an obscured way, that's samsara. So if you find yourself in samsara, In other words, you don't understand cause and effect yet. If you hear about deep faith in cause and effect, and you accept that and feel the situation that's not clear to me, I truly believe in, then through that study you achieve not obscuring cause and effect. And now you're in cause and effect, but it's not obscuring. So then you're not falling into it.

[88:42]

Now you enter into a peace . That makes sense. Thank you. Thanks for pursuing . OK. Is that it for today? Yes. I don't know if you want to answer this. We do left and right. Yeah. I keep hearing people referring to karma in a way that doesn't fit the definition of fever or crying if I understand it. If it can be clarified. It happened when Jerry was speaking. There's something happening to me that sounds like people are referring to the event as my karma. Excuse me, but karma literally means action, intention. It means action. The definition of action in this case is intention.

[89:47]

That's karma. But karma is also used as a shorthand to karmic cause and effect, or karmic of the laws of karma. Sometimes they say karma for the laws of karma. The laws of karma are just actions. the teaching that action has consequences, and the teachings about how it has the consequences, and it's also the consequences. So the consequences could be something different than further from action on my part, or a future feeling on my part. It could be falling down on top of me or something. Well, how would it make a commoner word? Is it separate? If you walk into a house and it falls down on you, then the fact that you walked into it has something to do with it. You may not have caused it to fall. Well, you might have. Maybe the house was on the verge of falling down when you put your weight on it.

[90:51]

But if you had no abode, you had this deck. If you had a pole, 30 people standing on it, it might collapse. There'd be people on it. And then Bernard and Max rebuilt it, so now 30 people can be on it. But if you put 50 people out there on the deck, or 70 on the deck, and it collapsed, and you say, well, the collapsing had something to do with those people's passion going on there. He was responsible for them going out there. He'd pull them to go out there, and they're responsible for now asking if the deck were hidden. So sometimes we share responsibility for the things that happen. So there's that sense, too. There's that aspect of the study. The key thing to study, the core, which is the center, the core, the part that we must not skip over, is what is our intention right now? Because that's the fresh thing that you can actually look at right now.

[91:55]

And without attending to that, the study is . And people use karma as a result or destiny or fate. They use it that way. We did not use it that way. Consequence is not the same as fate. But karma is not consequence. Karma has consequence. But then karma for the cause and the consequence. So, if my sister murdered, say, and had an impact on my life, if that event, a karmic, could that be a karmic consequence that's related to me? Now, you're getting back into the impulse point yesterday, which is, again, the teaching that worlds are created by group.

[93:13]

So your sister committing suicide is also... The world in which fish jump in the air and people fall down and tornadoes happen, that world that we share is due to our collective karma. And we, humans, live in a certain world. And we also live in subcultures within the world. And the world that we live in, that we share, is the world that is shared around our similar karmas. And fish do similar karma, and because of their similar karma, they create a world for those with whom they share karma. Fish's bodies are built a certain way. Because their bodies are built a certain way, they have different cognitive categories. The different cognitive categories give rise to different karmic patterns.

[94:15]

We have different shaped bodies, so we have different patterns, plus we have language. And because we use language, we are doing some very, very similar karma. And because we have similar karma, we make a similar world. And then within our general human world, we have subsections of karma, partly because of sub-linguistic divisions. In those, we share the karma of linguistic sub-divisions, create sub-worlds, meaning big worlds, where we share. And everybody's contributing to these worlds. Fish contribute to our worlds, but they don't experience our worlds, because we eat fish. So we're living in the same world with fish, but the world that they experience and that we experience is different. So we're all contributing to all worlds. All worlds are formed by, according to this tradition, are formed by cognitive enclosure.

[95:17]

Without cognitive enclosure, not a world. It has no boundary. It's inexhaustibly vast and ungraspable. To make it into something that we can experience closure on and communicate in is a result of karma, which we're constantly contributing to and maintaining. Okay? Is that enough for today? Can we go home? Yes, who's down here? Was she soaked? Is she soaked? Are you thinking she's soaked? No. Yes? You're right. Please, what's your name? I'm not quite sure. You're not quite sure? Are you a box? That's not true.

[96:19]

You talked about cognitive enclosure. Yes. You talked about cognitive expansiveness. Cognitive expansiveness. Yeah, I think cognition is itself, cognizance is unbounded and expansive. However, what it knows creates a conclusion. By knowing, the object it knows creates enclosure, because it can't know everything. It has to relate to what's touching the sense organs. So the cognition, what is known, creates enclosure, but the cognition itself is unbounded. Because the cognition is nothing more than a bunch of causes and conditions. Causes and conditions have no boundary.

[97:22]

And then the cognition has a pattern. The pattern is the intention. The intention has consequences of further patterns of enclosure. If you study this, in the enclosure, there are two ideas of separation and self. which intensify the sense of equanimity and isolation? No, not that. Except it is? Words are not bad, right? Words are not bad, I don't care. I don't care. Coming for a person? I don't know. Is that all right? I don't know. What? Can you see it?

[98:27]

Yes. Yeah, a little bit. A little, I think. A little bit. And you think it takes a lesson from you? I hope it was. Yeah, a little. Would you need your compost, Gus? I think we need our compost in there, Danny. Except for one of the buckets. You could run out of bucket fluid. Danny? Is there anything you'd like to say to him? people with a kitchen unit. I'm, uh, I'm, uh, wildly happy.

[99:27]

Thank you. That was the old Eureka. Thank you. We don't have much to say. Thank you. I've actually been very curious about Parajan and fox stories. I'm a little bit surprised we didn't get quite there. Oh, well, I think we might . So we might get to the . Yes. I think we probably will. You can't control this, right? But I was kind of setting up for that. This is kind of . Do you have a second ? No. maybe she should go first because I'm going to sit there and then you can sit around as well I have a question for you this good doctor said yesterday about the consequences of karma and I was wondering if you could say something about how that isn't contradictory

[101:07]

to the Buddha giving prophecy that someone with a specific name and a specific lifetime living in a specific house would attain Buddhahood. She asked me something about karma not being deterministic. And she said, what about the Buddha saying that somebody's going to be such and such at a certain time in a certain place? So, you know, is... Can you stop now? Okay, right? Pretty much? Yeah. I was thinking of kind of a, let me put a kind of pithy response to that, rather than a long one. I'm willing to wait.

[102:10]

Huh? I'm willing to wait. Yeah. I could give a pithy one and then maybe let more below it one, maybe. I think, again, part of the logic of this tradition is that because things are determined by causes and conditions, they are nothing more than causes and conditions. and therefore they're ungraspable and inconceivable. And the Buddha can see how causes and conditions work and tell people about how causes and conditions work according to whether it seems helpful to tell people about it.

[103:13]

So Buddha can sometimes make predictions which encourage people sometimes to hear. But the Buddha will be such But that doesn't mean that they think that the way the person that's right before them or the person that they will become is something that you can grasp. So I think deterministic, the sense of deterministic that I would say is that it makes a substantial thing. But the Buddha can say causes and conditions will create certain appearances which could be experienced. But the thing that appears can be experienced as a thing, and it can be experienced as a process, and it can be experienced as an emptiness, because all things are also tied to an emptiness.

[104:14]

And the emptiness of a thing is the absence of its graspability. So it's not deterministic because as soon as something is determined by causes and conditions, because it's determined exactly, precisely by causes and conditions and no other way, and not the slightest bit different, there's exactly the same reason why you can't grasp it. So it's not determined in the sense of over-determined into being a substantial thing. It's determined into being an insubstantial, fleeting thing. Which, even when it forms, is only conditions coming together. And even as it forms, it lacks any idea we have. So it can't trap us. It can be free of whatever is happening when we realize it's emptiness. And we're not in control of realizing emptiness. But studying cause and effect brings our eyes to the liberating principle that comes

[105:19]

That was the short answer. Is freedom a sense of choice? Is freedom a sense of choice? A sense of choice is accompanied by an emptiness which when you realize will free you from your sense of choice. So I don't know what will happen next. Thank you so much.

[106:02]

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