Good morning. Well, this is the last day of sasheen, and although I don't want to produce anxiety in you, pretty soon the practice period will be over. Not anxiety, but anticipation. We don't want to be in anticipation. And most of you will stay, and some of you will leave, but most of you will stay. And I'll leave, and then Tenshin Sensei will come and be the dojo. And so what I've been thinking about today is what that transition means and what it means for one person to step out and the other person to step in.

[01:21]

And what does it mean to have a relationship with a teacher And what does it mean for a teacher to have a relationship with a student? And what are our relationships? These are all questions that interest all of us. How do we practice together and how do we practice when we're not together? This is actually, to me, the most fundamental thing, is how do we practice when we're together and how do we practice when we're not together? Because we're not always together. We're not always at the same place at the same time. If you've read the Platform Sutra of the Sixth Ancestor,

[02:29]

at the end of some of his talks, he says, please put this teaching into practice. He says, if you put this teaching into practice sincerely and wholeheartedly, then even if we're a thousand miles away, it's as if we were standing face to face. But if you don't put these practices, this practice, this teaching into practice, then even though we're standing face to face, it's as if we're a thousand miles away. So, the main thing is what our practice is, how each of us actually does our own practice. The history of relationship of teacher and student is varied and sometimes simple and sometimes complex.

[03:31]

when Suzuki Roshi was the teacher of Zen Center, all of the students were his students. I mean, it was sort of understood that all of the students were his students. Some people felt like they were his students, more than others, I think. Some students felt that they were really bonded with Suzuki Roshi as a teacher. And I think others felt that they liked Suzuki Roshi as a teacher, and others felt that they were curious about Suzuki Roshi as a teacher, and others felt that this is something that they were doing for a little while. But his most serious students were very bonded to him, as a student, sort of teacher.

[04:38]

And Kanagiri Roshi, who was at that time Kanagiri Sensei, was his helper. but people didn't relate to him as the teacher of Zen Center, or not really as, kind of as a teacher, but they always looked past him to Suzuki Roshi. And later, when Kanagiri Roshi left Zen Center, then he became a teacher, and people related to him as a teacher when he became independent. and then he became Kadagiri Roshi. So when people practice in a place, as students, and there's a teacher, usually there's one focus, one teacher.

[05:49]

And then when Baker Roshi became the abbot of Zen Center, he was the teacher. Most people at Zen Center either related to him as, bonded with him as a teacher, or thought of him as a teacher, or etc., etc., as I mentioned before. Various kinds of relationships. Now in Zen Center we have two abbots. Some people are bonded with me as a teacher. Some people practice with me as a teacher. Some people look at me as a teacher. Some people are going to wonder if I am a teacher. Anyway, we have the whole list of types of relationship.

[06:54]

And then the same goes for tensions, let's say. So here I am, he and I trade being docho at Tassajara. I come in the fall and he comes in the winter, in the spring. And I have a certain style and way of doing things. And he has a certain style and way of doing things, and our ways of doing things are very different. You can almost say red and green, or black and white. But that can either be a hindrance or an opportunity, depending on how you look at it, on how you deal with it. At one time, in the distant past, our differences were very outstanding.

[07:58]

And as a matter of fact, we couldn't stand each other. And at one point in our practice, around 1974 I think it was, we kind of vowed that someday we'd practice together in some way. We'd be in the same place and practice together and just really work it out. And right about this time, that kind of, that promise kind of made itself, actualized itself without us doing anything about it. And we became involved with the same seat. We're both given the same seat. So in order for us to sit on the same seat, we have to

[09:12]

be very big, either very big or very small. Japanese teachers, when they say, you're both two abbots? They shake their heads. They can't believe it. But they also kind of marvel at it. It's only in America. Something new. But actually, it's not new. If you read history, you find that it's really not new. Many things have happened in history before, but we don't know about them. But When I'm at Tassajara as dojo, then we all practice with a certain atmosphere.

[10:20]

The dojo creates a certain, along with everyone else, creates a certain atmosphere of practice, and we practice in that atmosphere. when the new different habit comes, then we practice in that atmosphere. He creates a certain atmosphere. So we have to have some real flexibility. And this flexibility is an important part of our practice. How we can be flexible and how we can adjust to a different situation, how we can adjust to the situation when it changes. Very important. I feel that each one of us has some contribution.

[11:31]

He has certain abilities which I have not developed. And I have certain attributes which I feel that he hasn't quite developed. But I think that you can take advantage of both of those I hesitate to say that I have some ability, but in this context I have to say so. So, in the history of Zen, a person usually settles down with one teacher. It's okay to go around from teacher to visit other teachers, but eventually you settle down with one teacher.

[12:44]

Some people in Tukhit Sense Center feel that they have a teacher, but a lot of people, and a lot of people at Tassajara, just practice. without actually feeling that they have a special teacher. If someone ordains you, then that person is usually your teacher at that time. The person who gives you priest ordination, it's understood that that person takes some responsibility for being your teacher, at least for some period of time in the beginning. Or you make some agreement about how long you will have a teacher-student relationship. But when you become ordained, a teacher should at least give you some guidance.

[13:49]

And you should be willing to accept that guidance. Otherwise, what are you doing? There are teachers who ordain someone, who will ordain someone, and then just send them out in the world. to say, go find your way. That does happen. As a matter of fact, I know a teacher who does that. He will ordain somebody and say, go find your way. The person's got this pile of robes and doesn't know what to do with them. And so they wander around, and sometimes they just get lost, and sometimes they'll find their way. I think that's quite marvelous. But our way is to take some responsibility for the person and guide them as a baby, as a baby priest.

[14:58]

We should all have some guidance. When I was ordained by Suzuki Roshi, He gave me guidance, but he also sent me out on my own. So it was a mixture of both things. He had the priests, we had a lot of Japanese priests around at that time, and I really appreciate the fact that we had Japanese priests. I think I studied with five or six Japanese priests right here at Zen Center. And they taught me how to take off my robes and how to use my orioke bowls and the stuff that priests need to know. How to handle yourself, how to do things, which now we call priestcraft, which makes me shudder.

[15:59]

But there's a certain way of doing things that if you do it correctly, you feel good, you feel right, and you feel that it always makes you feel right, good, to do something right, to do something correctly. And even though there may be no right or wrong way, at the same time, there's a right way and a wrong way. So I was fortunate to learn all those things. And also, I could always come to my teacher for advice And the teaching was wonderful and subtle, but I was out on my own a lot. And at that time, we were starting the Zendo in Berkeley. And so he ordained me in Berkeley, rather than Tassajara, in order to have some strong feeling at the Zendo.

[17:04]

And so I kind of had to learn on my own. But my teacher was always behind me. And I could always go to my teacher. And he gave me a lot of leeway, a lot of lead. And when I get into trouble or need something, I could always go see him. But whenever I saw him, he would give me some kind of koan. And then I'd go away, and I'd practice with it. And then I'd come back and tell him about my problems, and then he'd give me a bigger problem. He always laughed and said, you came to me with this problem, and I've just given you a bigger problem. I'm sorry. Please excuse me. He was so polite and sweet. And so that was And then from time to time, I spent a lot of time with him, like at Tassajara, and during Sashimis, and Pain Street, and so forth.

[18:15]

But it was a coming and going. I'd be out on my own, and then I'd come back, and then I'd go out again, and then come back. And there was a lot of trust, a lot of trust. And also, a lot of just letting go. I was amazed how he could just let go. But he knew that I wouldn't wander off. So I felt that I was always practicing with my teacher, whether I was with him or not, didn't make any difference. The times that I was not with him were just like the times when I was with him, because I was always practicing. Even though I was getting in lots of trouble and giving people big headaches and stumbling over myself, I never felt for a moment that I wasn't practicing.

[19:20]

And that was always the uppermost in my mind, the most important thing. this kind of relationship is very appealing to me and I have experience with that and that's what I know, what I feel is the right way to practice for me and for students with me. So I feel when I'm here at Tassajara, practicing with all of you, that this is very close practice. With some people it's closer than others, but still, it's very close practice. And when we're not together, when I'm gone, I would hope that we're still practicing together in exactly the same way.

[20:25]

And then when we meet again, it's like, we'd only been gone for 10 minutes. So on that level, teacher and student practice together. Even though your life has many changes when you're not with the teacher, and the teacher's life has many events when, not with a student, when they meet, the level of their meeting is as if they were hardly apart. It's like you could finish a sentence that you interrupted. So if there's that kind of connection, then you know that there's a relationship, and you feel very warm and good about that relationship.

[21:40]

And you know that the teacher knows that, or the student has some feeling that the teacher is always there. And a teacher has the feeling that the student is always there. And in this way, no matter whether you're together or apart, you always know where you stand. And sometimes Suzuki Roshi would really scold me But it was always wonderful. His scolding was always quite wonderful. A good teacher doesn't hold back. So one thing also I feel is that all of Suzuki Roshi's close students developed their own way, their own way which is correct.

[23:14]

Even though we all have the same teacher, we're all different people. And although we come from the same root, although leaves are different. All the branches are different. And so we each have our own way of teaching based on Suzuki Roshi's teaching. And I present it in one way, through my own understanding, and Tenchin Sensei presents it in his way, through his understanding. Someone else will present it their way, through their understanding. And when we study with Suzuki Roshi students, we get some rounded, rich experience. Baker Roshi expressed it in his way. So actually we're very fortunate to have some of Suzuki Roshi's students teaching still in Zen Center.

[24:33]

But even if we have, say, one teacher, even if we decide so-and-so is my teacher. Still, when things shift, you study with the other person as if they were your teacher. There was a time when, and I think it's still basically so, where a person, let me put it this way, in the beginning of our practice, we are always told not to shop around for teachers, not to play the smorgasbord meal, taking a little bit from this teacher and a little bit from that teacher,

[25:53]

If you were going to practice at all, you should stay with one person, one teacher. And that's, I think, correct. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't study with other teachers. Some people don't have a teacher, and they need to shop because there's a big marketplace these days. But if you settle down and find your way with a teacher, then if you go to visit other teachers, you should say, I would like to go visit so-and-so. Is that OK? And your teacher will say, yes, please do. Give them my regards. But if you say, or if you don't say anything, and just go visit other teachers, then your teacher will wonder what you're doing.

[26:57]

Or if you say, well, I'm going to go visit so-and-so. See you later. The teacher will think, well, that's a little funny. Where do I come in? So it's It's important to think about how your teacher might feel if you just kind of run around. It's a little bit like being married. I don't say that it is like being married. But it's like if you have a relationship with somebody and they're flirting with somebody else, you get jealous. You may say, you shouldn't get jealous. You're a Zen teacher. That's true, but it's not jealousy, maybe, but it's, yeah, it's kind of jealousy.

[28:08]

It's like, look, I'm doing this for you, with you, and you're doing this with me, and now you're doing this with somebody else. It's like, where's our bond? Where is our intimacy? And if we want to share that intimacy, then let's decide that, so that you can feel okay about it, and I can feel okay about it, and someone else can feel okay about it. So that comes through a decision, rather than faultless, kind of just following your ideas or your feelings. The Old Testament says, I am a jealous God. They say, oh, God is jealous? God should be above being jealous.

[29:09]

That's true. God is above being jealous. At the same time, God can express jealousy for a reason. The teacher is not God. Don't get me mixed up. Don't misunderstand me. But relationship has these... relationship has these subtle emotions. So we have to be careful how we do things. And usually In Japan, sometimes the relationship can be a little overbearing. I knew of a nun who had a teacher, and she wanted to take a different teacher.

[30:11]

And this was a big deal. So she cut off her little finger and sent it to the teacher, to the former teacher. This is how seriously she took her relationship. I myself have always let people come and go very freely. I don't think that I've ever had much stuff come up about students coming and going because my outlook on practice was people come and go. Well, when people are together studying, that's what they're doing. And when someone goes away, then they go away. And I've never felt any particular loss when people go away.

[31:14]

I've always felt that it's natural. We're together for a while, and then people go away. There's no reason why anyone should feel obligated to stay with me. That's a little bit egotistical to feel that they should stay with me for some reason. But if someone wants to come and stay while they're there, it's fine. I'll meet them and they'll meet me. And then when they leave, no problem. And I've always felt that way. And I still do feel that way. Basically, that's my feeling. While we're together, if something happens, good. If you want to go someplace else, no problem. That's still actually my basic feeling, always. But I've always felt with people who come and go that each person is in a different place.

[32:17]

And we all have our destiny based on our karma. based on our actions and what we need to be working out. And sometimes our paths cross in that working out and it becomes meaningful and then we go on. But usually when there's a meaningful relationship and someone leaves, eventually they come back. And I've seen this happen over and over again. Someone will leave, ten years later they'll come back and start practicing again with me. But people have to go through sometimes certain phases in their life. And one of the phases is to meet with somebody else. And this also happens in relationships of men and women, and marriage and so forth.

[33:20]

Sometimes it looks like where we meet is forever. This is the destiny of our life, but actually it's only one of the meeting points. And then people get very upset when the relationship is no longer working. There's something very strong in both people that is motivating them, and then they meet at a certain point that's compatible. but those motivations are still going on and they're stronger than the relationship and then people part. So to try to hang on to a relationship is very risky. It takes a strong commitment to keep a relationship together, especially nowadays because All of us, men and women, are geared to creating our own life career.

[34:32]

In the old days, men had a role, women had a role. They knew how they supported each other and complimented each other. But nowadays, they do not compliment each other. Men and women both have the same base. So how do you stay together? You don't. It's very, very difficult to stay together because they both have the same base. Who's going to support who and why? If both parties do exactly the same thing, whether they need to get together for sex companionship, sharing interests, maybe helping each other a little bit. What more can you expect? You can expect more. If you do expect more, that expectation has to come from agreements.

[35:36]

You cannot take anything for granted. In the old days, you could take something for granted. You could take for granted that the woman would be the helpmate of the man, and the man would support the woman. I mean, that was just taken for granted. Everybody knew that. Uh-uh. Not anymore. But we still have the same expectations about commitment. We have a big problem. We have some of the residual expectations, but without the actual reality of the support system. And so we really get into trouble. We get very attached to some kind of relationship, but there's no way in the world it's going to work the way you want it to. Because we have underlying assumptions which are no longer true, and desires which cannot be supported by those assumptions.

[36:50]

Anyway, that's a little bit off the track, but I couldn't help talking about it, seeing as it really bears on our practice at Tassajara. It does bear on our practice at Tassajara. I have been thinking that what I would really like to see happen at Tassajara as a requisite for being here is that people do not start relationships with another person, intimate relationships with another person. When you sign up to come to Tassajara, you say, I promise not to start an intimate sexual relationship with somebody else at Tassajara. And then you come to Tassajara just for the purpose of practicing with certain limitations. And this is one of the limitations.

[38:00]

It doesn't mean that you don't have friendships, but the friendships are on a different level. Because my experience, and I've been through it myself, and seen it over and over and over and over again, that when this happens, most of the time it doesn't work. 99% of the time it doesn't work. and people just end up in real suffering. I think that we can limit ourself for certain times in our life. I'm not saying that you have to be a celibate person, but there are times in your life when you can do it. Just take a little space out of your life to do that. Anyway, that's what I'm thinking about as a condition for coming to us.

[39:14]

People are already couples. You know, that's different. But to start something new, because when people are couples, they already know they're established, and so they don't have to go through this courtship period. But to establish something new, which involves a courtship, in which you never know what the outcome is going to be, is devastating. And I've had the experience myself, so I know what it's like. And even if we do say so, it will still happen.

[40:31]

people will think twice before they do something so easily. Anyway, I mentioned it to Tenshin Sensei, and he knows how difficult a thing that would be to implement, but he's not against it. Do you have any questions? Yes. I feel a sort of rambling toward Shosan tonight. Good point. Thank you. Yes, it is rambling toward Shosan, and I did want to say something. I think that if we have some expectation, and try to make it some special, do it in some special, or have some expectation of how we're supposed to do this, that will change it, limit too much.

[42:22]

So my feeling is that I would like it if you posed a serious question. One of the things that I was thinking was that you can base your question on Genjo Koan, which is what we've been studying all this time, which would seem a logical thing to do. I'm not saying that you have to do that, but Genjo Koan and your life. Genjo Koan is your life. That's what it's about. So you can, but you can ask some question, you know, about some point in Genjo-Koan or about your life as Genjo-Koan. It's some hint or something to work with. But anything is all right. And as far as my response to your questions,

[43:31]

my response may be one word or it may be five minutes of wandering, meandering talk. I'm not going to promise anything or try to stick to some special way that we expect it to be. So it may be like a flash of lightning or it may be like turtles walking down to the ocean. I don't know. It doesn't matter. The main thing is that it's like two arrows meeting in midair, sort of like a box in its lip. Sometimes it's quick and sometimes it's slow. Sometimes it's right on and sometimes it's ponderous. The main thing is that we're sincere with each other and I have no idea what I'm going to say to you.

[44:49]

So I have to pick up something. I have to reach down in my well and pick up something in my bucket and see what it is. That's all. I don't have time today to talk about the mind, but that's a good point, and I will. The practice period is not over yet. I was pretty sure you weren't making any specifics, but I was feeling that you, that I thought it would be good if you could get more specific.

[45:59]

I wonder if you could be a little more specific. Well, I think it would probably be easier if someone else said what our differences were in a more objective way. I think most people that know us already know what our differences are. Still though, I don't realize that now. I don't know. But you can't be objective about it. How can I be objective? Well, I think that you can be without me being. Just like I can be without you. You're expecting me to be objective without you being objective. But maybe we're strict in different ways.

[47:10]

We have different ways of being strict. And sometimes strictness looks like looseness. You wanted to say? Yeah, I wanted to ask if you could say something about the student's part or the student's responsibility in developing a relationship with a teacher. And also, you used the word subservient. I did? Once. Not today. Oh. As part of the one element that may come up in the student-teacher relationship. the willingness to play that role. I may have said that, but I don't say I didn't say that. But I don't think that a student should be subservient, because subservient has the funny connotation, right? I may have used the word, but I don't remember the context.

[48:19]

Do you? Yes. Uh-huh. Uh-oh. Okay. What was it? Well, maybe you could start with the first part. Okay. You know, being a teacher usually doesn't reach out and say to somebody, you should be my student. That's very rare that someone would do that. Although I don't say that that wouldn't happen or doesn't happen. But a teacher usually waits for people to come and ask for something. So it's really up to the student to make some overture. Say, I would like to study with you. And this, you know, in our short period of time in America, we haven't developed really any kind of systematic way of doing this.

[49:37]

A Korean monk, I don't know if I told you this story, a Korean monk recently told me that in Korea, all of the monasteries are in the mountains and there are various teachers, people who are considered teachers in Korea and there are a lot of monks and the monks kind of go around visiting the various teachers and the teachers have about 10 students who they consider their students. But there can be a large group of monks around the teacher. But the students look for a teacher who they feel that they have some affinity with. They say, oh, I like his talks, or I like the way he moves, or I like his understanding, or something like that. And then when they find a teacher who they feel they have an affinity with, then they hang around.

[50:47]

And if the teacher feels that they have an affinity with the student, then maybe they create a relationship. I think that's very nice, actually. And I think that we should also have the freedom to be able to do something like that. I think that now that there are more teachers establishing in the country, that that's naturally going to happen. and people will visit teachers and finally find a place where they feel that they can study. Somebody they can study with feels right and then have that relationship. But the student has to come forth. It's like the salmon go back upstream And this big struggle, you know, to get back to the source.

[51:50]

And that's some Zen practice. And that's your study with a teacher. And the teacher pulls you along, you know, doing that. The teacher helps you along doing that. And some make it up the falls, some don't. Some make it up the falls. You know the falls? Some make it up the falls and some don't. And it's not always easy to stay with the teacher. As a teacher, A lot of teachers, as they get stronger and stronger students, become more exclusive because a person can only deal with so many people.

[53:02]

So, there should be more teachers. But still, the teacher should lead the student sometimes pushing, sometimes leading, sometimes letting go, you know, but helping the student to get back to the source, just like the salmon going back up the stream. And students should have a hard time like that. If you're not having a hard time, then probably for some reason, it's something you're not doing right, because it's not easy to get up the falls. It takes all of your strength and real effort to do that, big effort to do that. So teachers like students who make that kind of effort. That's why some teachers don't take students.

[54:07]

They say, I haven't found a student yet. Some teachers die without leaving an heir. even though they may have a lot of students. What I meant was something like the ability to play a role that may appear to be subservient without feeling subservient. Well, I guess, I don't know if subservient is the word, but let's use the word, okay? And the student should know how to serve the teacher. That's very true. And when the student takes, you know, even though the student and the teacher are equal, like everybody's feet, you know, when everybody's standing on the ground, nobody's feet are any lower than anybody else's.

[55:14]

Right? All of our feet touch the ground, and nobody's feet are closer to the ground than anybody else's. But the teacher is the teacher, and the student is the student. And so the student comes asking for something, and the teacher says, gives something. And so they take their positions. And the student always takes the position as a student, and the teacher takes the position as a teacher. Sometimes they change. But even if they change, The student is still always the student, the teacher is always the teacher. So in the interchange, a lot of things can happen. But if the teacher is worthy of respect, then the student always respects the teacher, should respect the teacher's position, and serve the teacher. And in America, we have an aversion to serving.

[56:16]

It's kind of an aversion to serving. But in Japan, it's quite different. And of course, we have inherited some of the forms, but we don't necessarily have the spirit to fill the forms, which is OK. I don't particularly like to have subservient people around. Matter of fact, I don't like it. But there's a certain respect and position that makes you feel like you want to do something. There's a certain humbleness and request and position that a student takes that makes the teacher feel like they want to work with a student. So I don't like to call it subservient, but I would say maybe respectful. If the student respects the teacher, then the teacher responds and is respectful of the student. It should be a mutual serving.

[57:20]

But the student serves in one way, and the teacher serves in a different way. And sometimes the teacher reaches out and says, hey, come back, or I want to talk to you, or something like that. Sometimes the teacher should reach out to the student But basically, unless the student makes the move, the teacher won't respond. It's rather presumptuous to say, you should be my student. Don't you think? It seems almost as presumptuous to say, you should be my teacher. Well, no. Will you be my teacher? It's not presumptuous. How about, will you be my student? That's okay. Within the realm of respect, what about questioning various forms, various ways of doing... I'm struck by the visiting Japanese monk who encouraged us to develop American forms, and how I think they have to do that organically as they...

[58:42]

as they grow, still it seems to me important, in respect, to question and to try the boundaries. Yeah. Well, that's what we do. First thing is to learn the forms as perfectly as you can. Then you have some authority to change them. But if you don't learn them as well as you can, then what authority do you have to change them? I was thinking about our practice is like a maze. I'm not saying that it's... It's a maze in that in a maze you have a lot of different channels that you can go up. But there's only one channel that gets to finish. And a lot of the time, we don't want to take the route to the end.

[59:54]

We want to just go to the end the easiest way, you know? We want to climb over the fence, or, oh, this way looks more direct because, see, it points toward the end. But the real route doesn't point toward the end. It meanders around and around and around, and doesn't look like it's going anywhere. But actually, it gets to the end. And if you don't go through all the right curves and take all the right turns, if you skip anything, you won't make it to the end. And what we want to do is take all those dead ends as the way that leads to the end. When you get to the end, then you can go in a different direction. But you want to go in a different direction before you get to the end. You don't want to go through the maze. You don't want to take all the turns. Is that so? You told me. I said I wanted to go straight to the heart of the matter and not waste time.

[60:58]

Right. That means taking your time, going very slowly, and not missing a turn. Doing everything exactly right. The faster you go, the more behind you get. The turtle wins the race. It's not a lie. But it must turtle go. Nowadays our turtles have roller skates. over and over and over and over again, you know? It's just do one thing at a time.

[61:59]

Do this the best way you can. Stop wondering whether it's right or wrong. Just do it. What is our own forms? It doesn't mean anything. You think you're American? You're Japanese. I'm Scottish. Go back to Ireland. Go back to Scotland. You're Japanese. Stop worrying about being American. I'm not Japanese. Or Scotch-Irish. Learn how to be Japanese. What's wrong with being Japanese? You think there's something wrong with being Japanese? There's nothing wrong with it if you are Japanese. But I think to try and become Japanese is foolish.

[63:01]

You are Japanese. Yes, you are. Thank you. Thank you. When you realize that you're Japanese, then you can change the form. Yeah, it sounds exactly like the fish trying to reach the element of what's on the planet. Yeah, that's right. Forms are the teacher. If you don't go through the forms, you don't meet the teacher. If you don't master the form, you don't meet the teacher. If you avoid the forms, then you avoid everything.

[64:09]

You don't get to go, I mean you don't get to stop, you don't get to the end, unless you go through the right maze, the right channel in the maze. I remember when I was studying, I wanted to learn everything that they had to teach me. And I could not understand why anybody else wouldn't want to do that. I wanted to know how to do this right, and I wanted to know how to do that right, and I wanted to, you know, I was really eager to learn how to do everything that they had to teach me right. Why wouldn't anybody want to do that? I mean, I kind of understand, but really I don't. Why should we do something enter something and then resist it? Are there a million, billion things to do in this world? All of them interesting. All of them exciting. Why would you want to enter into something and then not do it?

[65:13]

If you won't put me in that pocket, I'll be Japanese. How could I put you in my pocket? You don't look Japanese. Anyway, maybe we've had enough.

[65:38]

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