I have said, if we practice intimately and return to where we are, the other way of saying it is, if we practice intimately and return to where we are, giving close attention to all of our actions, One way of putting it sounds pretty much like what we call zazen, doesn't it? Practice intimately, return to where you are. Does that sound like a practice? But there is a word in there about action, which may not be clear.

[01:01]

Where you are is a place where there's action. There's always action in the mind. There's always intention. If we return to this place where we are and give close attention to it, it will become clear that nothing whatsoever has an abiding, independent self. This could be said to be deep faith in karmic cause and effect. Settling into close attention to action is faith in the karmic causation. And then something came up yesterday, so I thought I'd integrate that into this

[02:07]

this dogma. Dogma means teaching an opinion, often religious, but not necessarily. The dogma is giving close attention to all our supra-liminal intentions and actions. of all our superliminal actions feeds back to our subliminal intentions, our subliminal action and intentions. Another way to say it is by giving close attention to our conscious cognitive activity and conscious mental actions and physical actions and vocal actions, by giving close attention to them, that attention to these karmas, these conscious karmas, feeds back on unconscious karmas.

[03:46]

feeds back on them and influences them. The mindfulness and attention to the teachings of karma feed back on the realm of unconscious cognitions. And modern neuroscience proposes that 95% of our cognitive activity is sub-buminal. But it also points out that the supralinear activity feeds back on the sub-linear and changes what are called action potentials. So the process could be described as close attention to the conscious level of intention. We do not see other 95% of our intentions, which are going on, but they're subliminal.

[05:03]

They're happening. They're making our hands and feet move. They help us go up and down stairs. When we go down the stairs, 95% of the intention of going down the stairs is unconscious. Subliminal. So, again, by attention to the supraliminal intentions, the subliminal are transformed. This causes or promotes a positive evolution of the conscious and the unconscious intentions. And you can see, I think you may be able to verify, that as you give more and more attention to your conscious intentions, they evolve positively.

[06:14]

But there's still lots of unconscious ones which you can detect indirectly, through reasoning at least, must be going on otherwise. Who said that? Where did that come from? Why did I do that? I did that? I said that? I made that face? Do you agree? The supraliminal has not been transformed. You can see the subliminal has not been transformed, but it will be, is the teaching. But you can see the conscious being transformed by attention to it. But the unconscious also gets transformed by attention to the conscious. And then the unconscious will supply to the conscious new materials and new challenges, which then can be dealt with mindfully, which feeds back again into the process, offering new opportunities and new transformations, both conscious and unconscious.

[07:19]

All this finally leads to the removing of obstacles or hindrances in our vision, conscious and unconscious. Cognitive vision is transformed. So not just the karma is transformed by attention to the conscious-conscious. Not only is the conscious karma transformed and the unconscious karma transformed, but the vision in both levels is transformed. The hindrances are removed there's no fear, and we see, we're not afraid anymore to see that nothing whatsoever has abiding self. And then you can see and understand cause and effect. There's a dogma.

[08:32]

Karma is the problem. Attention to karma leads to the correction of the karma. Correcting the trajectory, consciously and unconsciously, correcting the trajectory finally, completely overcomes the karmic problem. the proud news of him. At the dawn, The day is December 10th, and I often stop on this day and mention it's a very dear day to me, because I heard, I don't know, this wonderful meeting.

[09:50]

I don't know if it was raining on December 10th, but I was in San Francisco, and I had come back from work, I went over to Sokoji Temple to talk to Suzuki Roshi and to ask him if I could go to Tassajara for the Winter Park Spirit. He said, yes. He was sitting in his office in fluorescent lighting. In those days, I don't know, everybody did that way, but I was just told, you want to go to class? There was no applications, they never said history of drugs or anything. Just, can I go? OK. But he didn't come, as you've heard. Yesterday I talked about the middle way around this.

[11:01]

I just gave you some dogma, but we do not want to have dogma turn into dogmatism. Dogma-ism. We want a religion that's not an ism in the Buddha way. The middle way is not an ism. It's the freedom from isms. It's freedom from everything, including middle-weightism. So, can there be deep faith in karmic causation? In this doctrine I just gave you, this dharma I just gave you, this dogma I just gave you, can there be deep faith in this? without strict affirmation of it. And we have faith in time of causation without affirming it strictly.

[12:06]

Because if we do that, then the teaching of cause and effect becomes determined ism. Causes and effect do determine what our life, how our life goes. But it's not an ism. If it's a middle way. If it's an ism, then it becomes bondage. The middle way is freedom. Isms are bondage. And affirming that turns into another ism. Another way I said it yesterday was, how can we give close attention to anything without reaffirming it? Without making it into a thing. When we first meet somebody, maybe there's a few nanoseconds there before we make him into a thing. A wonderful, fresh meeting with somebody who's not a thing yet. Oh, how wonderful.

[13:14]

Now can I make him into a thing? What are we going to do now with this wonderful, fresh, unthingness? I'm sorry, I need to go out for a minute. I'm not sure about when we get to the coffee part. You need to leave? There's something I need to take care of. I'll be back until... Already. Have a safe journey. Deep faith in something, deep faith in cause and effect, and in particular, karmic cause and effect, without strictly affirming it and without denying it, without affirming or negating it.

[15:06]

Dancing with the teaching of cause and effect, without affirmation or negation. Attention to this teaching, not overlooking it. Attention to precepts without affirming or negating. The problem is that sometimes when people are negating, somebody has to talk strictly. When people are negating, causing effect, negating precepts, then people have to talk as though they're strictly affirming. Chronic cause and effect. Strictly affirming moral cause and effect to get people away from negating. To get them into deep faith in chronic cause and effect. Because there's no problem with this person about affirming them too much.

[16:13]

They're negating the precepts. They're negating cause and effect. So we're trying to pull them back from negating to the middle way, and hopefully they'll stop right in the middle. If they swing over to affirmation, then we have to loosen them up, if they get too affirmative there. But if they're not affirmative, and they just have deep faith without being affirmative, this deep faith without being affirmative will open onto the emptiness of the process, the selflessness of cause and effect. Then, when they see the selflessness, we have to watch carefully that they don't swing over to the negation game. If they do, we have to pull them back. Apparently, talking like we're affirming. You see? Do you get the picture of how delicate the balance is? Well, sometimes it's not so delicate. Sometimes it's way over to one side, so it will be something heavy to pull a person back. You can be way over on the side of negation,

[17:15]

of like, I see emptiness, so whatever. Or you can be way over on the side of strict affirmation, and it's like horror, and prison, and no liberation, and totally hindered. And you should be hindered too. Everybody should be hindered. Get an azendo. Don't move. Don't make a mistake. You made a mistake. Sometimes people need somebody to say, you made a mistake. Consequence. I did it. And maybe right that moment, the person is now leaning way over into the strict affirmation of consequence.

[18:18]

They're just right in the middle, like, whoa! And they see that nothing has set. And they go back to where they were before, and there's another yell at them. So you see how it works, or at least the story of how it works? And once again, I remind you of a story about Gayata going to see Kumaralabdha. And at first, Gayata, who's predicted to be a great being, and is a great being, has doubts about karma causing effect. And Kumar Labda gives him further teachings, and then his doubt drops away.

[19:22]

And then in another story, which is in the book Transmission of the Light, Kumar Labda says to Gayadatta, you now have given up doubt. You have no doubts about karmic cause and effect now. You have faith in it, but you haven't yet clarified karmic causation. We haven't clarified the mind. So then he gives an instruction on that. And then he sees the selflessness of the process. He sees the selflessness of cognition, the selflessness of intention, the selflessness of delusion. Well, I don't know.

[20:31]

I have so much other interesting things to talk about, but perhaps you want to talk about something yourself. What? The woodcutter, yes. What about it? You want to hear the story sometime? Want to hear the woodcutter story sometime? Want to hear it now? You do? Want to hear the woodcutter story? This story, by the way, is from what's called the Mahavibhasha, which is the main text of the Sanskrit Abhidharma. The Sanskrit Abhidharma has seven books, and the Pali Abhidharma has seven books, but they're not the same seven books. And the seven books of the Sanskrit Abhidharma are sometimes described as an insect.

[21:37]

There's the one with the big body of the insect, which is the Mahavibhasha, and then the other six works are the legs of the insect. So in this Mahavibhasha, which the Abhidharma Kosha, by the way, is a verse summary. In there is a story about the woodcutter, and also in there is a story about those people who always did good, and then Cal appeared, and another person always did bad, and then Heaven appeared. That story is in the in the Abhidharma. It's not like, you know, in folk tales. Or as they say, folk tales are in the Abhidharma. Okay, where is it? Here it is. And I just want to say, before I read this story, that in Dogen's comment, At the end, I want to read to Dogen's comment in the end.

[22:44]

So Kumar Lobdha said there's karmic causation three times, and now Dogen's bringing up examples of these three types of karmic causation. One is where the first one is where the karmic causation comes in this life, sometimes immediately. the karmic effect comes immediately. Both for good and for unskillfulness. They both come immediately in some cases. So this is an immediate one. Once there was a woodcutter, can you hear that okay? Who went into the mountains and lost his way in the snow. The time was approaching Dusk. The snow was deep and the cold was freezing. The woodcutter would be dead before long. Then he advanced into a dense wood, whereupon he saw, already there in the woods, a bear whose body was the color of deep blue and whose eyes were like two torches.

[24:06]

The man was scared half to death, but this was really a bodhisattva who had, for the present, received a bear's body. Seeing the woodcutter's distress and fear, the bear soothed and admonished him, saying, Now you must not be afraid. A father and mother sometimes are treacherous to a child, but I now am completely without feel will towards you." Then the bear stepped forward, lifted up the woodcutter, and carried him to a cave to warm his body. After letting him recuperate, he picked various herbs and roots and fruits and encouraged him to eat what he liked and, afraid lest the woodcutter's coldness would not thaw. He hugged him and labeled him.

[25:15]

The bear thus tenderly nursed him for six days, until on the seventh the weather cleared and the path became visible. The man had the will to return. The bear, having recognized this already, again picked sweet fruits and served these to the man until he was satisfied. The bear escorted him out of the woods and politely bade him farewell. The man dropped to his knees and said in thanks, how can I ever repay your kindness? The bear said, now I want no other reward I only hope that just as in recent days I have protected your body, you will act likewise towards my life."

[26:23]

The man respectfully agreed and carrying his wood, descended the mountain. He met two hunters who asked him, What kind of creatures have you seen in the mountains? The woodcutter replied, I have not seen any other beast at all. I've only seen one bear. The hunters begged him, can you show us or not? The woodcutter said, if I give you a share, if you can give me a two-thirds share, I will show you. The hunters thereupon agreed, and together they set off. At length, they slew the bear and divided the flesh into three.

[27:27]

As the woodcutter, with both hands, went to take the bear meat, through the force of his arm, both arms dropped off like pearls on a string as custard. or like a chopped lotus roots. The hunters were alarmed by this. And in astonishment, they asked the reason for it. The woodcutter, ashamed, replied, related the plot in detail. The two hunters derided the woodcutter, saying, The other already had done you great benevolence. How could you have carried out now such an evil treachery? It is a wonder that your body has not rotted.

[28:32]

At this the woodcutter and the hunters together took the meat to donate it to the Buddhist Sangha. An elder among the monks who had wisdom to know others' wishes, immediately entered into an immovable state of concentration and reflected on what kind of meat this was, whereupon he knew it was the flesh of a great Bodhisattva who had produced benefit and joy for all living beings. At length, he left non-movement of samadhi and told the monks about this matter. The monks were shocked to hear it. Together, they gathered fragrant firewood to cremate the flesh, collected the remaining bones and created a stupa, performing prostrations and served offerments.

[29:38]

That karma, like this, must, whether it waits for continuance or slips continuance invariably suffers its effects." He said, you know, bad karma suffers its effects. Karma is the evil one and karma is what suffers the effects. And then Dogon says, such is called karma in which retribution or bad conduct is received in immediate present. Of course, as a general rule, when we receive kindness, we should intend to repay it with kindness. In being kind to others, however, do not seek reward.

[30:46]

One who would bring treachery and harm upon a kind person as in the present story, will inevitably suffer corresponding bad karma. And then he says, may living beings never have the mind of the woodcutter explanation-like. Suddenly a prayer emerges in the text. And then again he says, may those who have left home and those who have not left home never have a mind that does not no kindness. Explanation. I can feel, you know, I can feel God just crying out over the centuries. Okay? Can you hear me today?

[32:44]

Yeah. I'll point where it is that people raise their hands to the speaker. So, I could use some help from this community with a real-life karmic situation that arises for me. I have a brother who I'll see in about 10 days who I have a bit of a karmic pattern with, I think, where we get into situations where he has a... We get into situations where maybe I'm standing in front of him and he has a cat or a dog and... will hurt the cat.

[33:48]

And I respond. You respond, yes. How do you respond? Well, as this has occurred repeatedly, there have been a number of responses. One time, we ended up in the emergency room, me and I. I guess the most recent time I responded vocally. But one thing that I'm, well, the reason I ask for help is because I'm looking at violence and trying to understand the difference between when I respond I feel like I've become violent.

[34:58]

So you see your brother. Yep. And he's, through your eyes, he looks like he's being violent towards an animal. That's right. And you want to help him how to respond to that. Yeah, and... Nonviolent way. That's right. You know how to respond violently. Well, yes. Do you want to know a nonviolent way? That's right. I guess you do. I do. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between what's violent and not violent. I mean, it could be that responding vocally, it could be violent or non-violent. That's right. And so another sort of detail here is that... Also walking away could be violent, passive-aggressive. Right. So, yeah. Any ideas? Actually, yeah, I do have some ideas. Would you share them? Well, one idea I have is to ask Jane to come up here.

[36:03]

So we have somebody who seems to see violence or potential violence here. And now how can you speak to them in a nonviolent way about your feelings and your concern about this violence, right? So you want to come up and talk to her and make a suggestion? I'm fine with that. Or anybody else who wants to come up and make some suggestion about a nonviolent response when you seize, for example, an animal being potentially violent towards another animal? Thank you, Michael. Why don't you guys stand right here. And I hope it might sort of go in your direction. It might help. The main thing that helps is yelling.

[37:09]

And get ready for the she-saw ceremony. Learn to speak louder than you can imagine anybody wants you to. I guess I think of two different ways to go. One is if my feeling and response is so overwhelming that I maybe couldn't make a nonviolent response to this person right away, and I want to tend to my own feelings first. What if there's a cat? Well, then I might, you know, have a cat. Would there be a way for us to protect the cat without invoking... I don't know what he has in his hands. Wait a second.

[38:13]

Excuse me, what's your brother's name? Mark. It's his birthday in two days. Mark, it's your birthday in two days. I have a... I'll pay you if you give me the cat. I'll give you some money if you give me... I'll give you a birthday present early if you just hand the cat over. And it's a lot of money. Sorry, I might just, I might feel really afraid of the cat. And ask them how they feel hearing that. Like the cat, concern for the well-being of the cat. And then just ask your brother. might respond. So that's somewhat interesting to me, but it's too late.

[39:15]

Either we're already at the emergency room, or we're in the cat emergency room, or the human emergency room. Now the cat is safe. So you intervened and you caught her. In a particular setting that falls in this category, there was a member between us and I punched a window. And that stopped, you know, that released the dog in that case. Can you call the Animal Control Center and report animal abuse? Yeah, it's you. So what do you do? Maybe I call Animal Control and tell them that there's animal abuse happening.

[40:18]

You're Animal Control. There's animal abuse happening. We'll send someone over to check it out. I don't know what they do. Do you want to come home with me for Christmas? When you see him in two days? Ten. I'm not going to see him in two days. Twelve days. Ten days. I hope not. Would it work to talk about the situation while it's not happening? To bring it up? That works for me, but it doesn't work for him. It doesn't work for us. Any questions, Steph? Do you think that he's trying to get the best strategy he's using in order to trim the ute? Certainly. There's pain with bats, but there's pain for the fact that there's an animal that's trying.

[41:22]

And he's using the animal to hunt ute. He's using the animal to get to the ute. I think he enjoys that later, really. I think that's also somewhat up-to-date. I don't know if he enjoys. I don't know if he enjoys. What do you think he wants? John, hold the microphone for me. Just repeat what you said to me. Who's speaking? My question was what stuff, what you're guessing as to what means he's trying to mean for himself. You know, in a flash that real harm happens.

[42:25]

I don't know, I guess it varies. In a flash that real harm happens. Maybe it's unconscious in one situation. Maybe in another situation it was to get something like he was locked out of the house, he went in the house. And so now I'm going to hurt the dog. So it varies when you go on the stairs. I don't understand. We have, there are different situations. We can pick one and talk about one. How long were you in touch with him? He was hurting the dog. Do you have any sense of what internal pain he would have been in? He was trying for something. He was hurting the dog. Well, in that particular situation, in that particular moment, he wasn't even involved.

[43:30]

Maybe he was still using some strategy You OK? I don't know. You OK? Yeah. Is this helpful to you? I don't know. Do you want to say something, Tom? I was just going to ask, under that situation, do you feel like crying? Under what situation? The animal in the agreement situation. Are you at that moment? No? It's just what I was going to suggest. It's just your emotions are going to run wild later. It's more like a living or dying, you know? Why do you want a bunch of money? Pardon? Why do you want the cash? Or I do want to give a bunch of money to my brother for the cat.

[44:40]

You said the cat. So say, can I have the cat? Or can I please get between you and the cat? Come over here. Pick on somebody your own size. Hurt me. Who's bigger than you? Well, pick on somebody bigger than the cat then. I'm more, you know, forget the small potato. Working with somebody that's more your size, it'd be more interesting for you to tap me. And like that, but I got more money than he did. Did you want this? I'm going to have this people.

[45:45]

Oh, OK. If there is a way to use a principle called the protective use of force. A principle called the protective use of force, which I think is what you were attempting to do when you smashed your hand through the window. But then you were not protected. So I don't know if there'd be some way I think so. Maybe the money also along the same line. Something that would either turn your brother's attention away from the dog or restrain your brother in some way that also would be not harmful to you. So actually, I wonder here, how much of my attention should be directed toward my brother? How much of my attention should be directed toward my own? No, mostly I feel like the window situations turned out pretty well. I feel like that was probably when I went the best.

[46:49]

I disagree. There are some things that I regret about it, but... They're animals that I'm devoted to. They're animals that I love. Well, it could be any animal, because I pretty much love all animals. Do you know if he hurts them when you're not around?

[47:54]

Do you know if he hurts them when she's not around? I don't know. Have you asked him what he needs? Because it meant that I asked him too many questions. But I asked him questions anyway, so I'll ask him that. Is his brother older than you? Yeah, he's a year and a half older. And he's an adult? He's 31. 31, and are you afraid of him, maybe in terms of his violence? And is that what's going on with him? More about you and him and his violence? I guess what I'm really interested in in this situation is studying my own potential for violence in a situation that arises very strongly.

[48:59]

For me, it's like life arises very strongly, but I feel my potential for violence arises illicit. Although I wonder about my so-called potential for violence, when it really is violent, when it's an appropriate response. It sounds like you're looking for a step. It sounds like you're looking for an appropriate response. Yes. I'm really frustrated that I have to leave. I'm really sorry. Thank you for asking this. You have this really strong value and intention about protecting. and you also have a really... Including a brother. Including a brother, and you also have a really strong value and intention to do it non-violently. Yes, not create further harm. So that's really frustrating when there's not appearing right away a strategy that seems to meet both values for you.

[50:05]

Not just not a strategy, but is it possible? That's what I mean, you know, any response. Do you have some control over where you see them? So I don't know what Christmas, I don't know what you guys are doing, but you actually have a lot of power in terms of when you enter a situation. So you can just see them, only see them when there's no animals. Only see them when there's no animals? When there's no animals. You're staying somewhere else. You're staying in a hotel. And you say, Christmas, come over to the hotel. Right? He brings a cat, you don't leave a room. There's some way of controlling it. You see what I'm saying? It shifts. It seems to me that what you've described is a totally dead-end situation. At least for me. Living to my wisdom. I don't see a way there. I think that's a trap. Once he's got a cat, I don't really see what we can do.

[51:07]

I share some of your frustration. So can you back up and try to not Yeah, maybe it's time for backing up. I mean, if I really want to expand my practice of nonviolence and back up, I regret that that's the case. Because there's a lot of members of the band members. I like Here's the solution. I mean, I don't think that goes so much. But I mean, that seems to meet both of her values. But it kind of maybe leaves out what's going on. Maybe. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it leaves out what's going on for her brother. So I would still work on taking guesses of what his need might be. And I don't mean like getting in the deep end of what's motivating.

[52:10]

this behavior, and how else might I be satisfied in a different way? And then if there's a solution, I'd include all those things. But I don't know how to guess that. I'm kind of there with you. I don't really know either. But now that I feel like I don't like that response, the thing with the hotel, because I feel like he isn't You know, he would be mean to the cat if it weren't there. It would look different. I mean, but it wouldn't be something that I would carry with the cat. And it also had a value of being willing to show up for all beings. You know, so I don't want to like the idea of just not associating with my family or making boundaries about only visiting at hotels. I feel like I value showing up.

[53:16]

You can show up and not show up. You can love them and keep loving them. Not showing up for Christmas is a way to show up, you mean. I was just thinking of the Colesons, they're a very big issue for resistance. Mary just says, well, showing up and not showing up is showing up and not showing up at the resistance in the result. Finding ways that you are bringing control into the situation. And I think John's is a good metaphor for finding those places of holding. So there's a lot of areas to sort of discover. I don't mean to represent an unsolved, actually I do mean to represent an unsolvable problem.

[54:19]

You know, I guess the last time we interacted and had an issue, I did cry and he did something different. He freaked out and he didn't attack the cat. Yeah, that's the solution. Are there other people around while this is happening? Sure. What do they do? Try to stay safe. Well, that to me is part of the problem. I just mean that the thing between my brother and I takes over. I don't mean that they and their mother may be around. They shouldn't go hide. suggestion is to perhaps consider that there's a way that it's not just you and your brother. If it's happening with other people, and if the abuse is allowed to continue, everybody's participating in the attack. And it might be interesting as a way to behave differently.

[55:21]

The behavior everybody's familiar with is you and your brother getting into this sick dynamic. It might be interesting to invite That's why I quarterly invite anybody to join me on my trip home for the holidays. I'm speaking of your family. Yeah, you too, right? You're speaking of yourself too. As somebody who contributes to my family, right? Well, I'm not here with your family, and you're asking for suggestions, so I was just offering a suggestion to consider the family as part of the group of beings who could assist you in your desire to save the family. And I'm here telling you that this family member is out of ideas, so I'm now asking all of you people wearing black robes to give me some ideas or come home with me. For two weeks. I'm inviting your family in while it's happening to participate in what's going on by naming what's going on and pointing at it and inviting them to join you and not be the only one defending the fact.

[56:31]

Have you tried that? I'm willing to try that with one family member. Just a suggestion. Any other suggestions? It seems to me that Your brother is acting a prescription or something. I like Jane's idea of trying to see what lies behind it. And if you can see what the reasons are behind it, maybe you can find ways to give him empathy in that realm of those questions. Maybe that would make him feel seen. How does he hurt the cat? Well, he'll make the animal cry by hurting him.

[57:32]

That looks, you can look at it in a lot of different ways. I don't really want to know. The reason I'm asking stuff is California has animal character politics. Yeah, he hasn't tortured cats like I've read about other people who had tortured cats. California has the law so that they take it very seriously because there are studies that prove that people that abuse animals graduate to humans. Do you have any other relationship with him or is this the overarching? I have had a very close relationship with him.

[58:36]

And is there a way for you to nurture that and pay attention to it? That's what this is about. Well, I'm talking about in the interactions with him over Christmas, would you expand that part of the relationship quite consciously? Be close to him in other ways besides conflict. Yeah, we do that. Do you trust each other? I don't know. There seems to be a lot you're not telling us. Of course. And there seems to be very little that you have told us. strong kind of like unhealthy dynamic going on in this family situation.

[59:49]

And I really don't think that a bunch of us in this room wearing black robes, maybe there might be like one or two here and there, have much in the way of training and how to deal with this kind of situation. How the hell do you deal with this kind of situation? Do you feel angry to think we're bringing it up? No, no. I just feel like... Not at all. Not at all do I feel angry. I just... This just doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Is that enough? Yes. I worked in domestic violence and child abuse for about seven years. And what I really said was the proper response. People that are violent, there's usually a control issue behind it.

[60:55]

And they do it because there are no consequences. And when they receive consequences, they find they have to do another way. And that's time for family therapy or some kind of professional intervention. That's decades of professional wisdom for the situation. You don't have a solution. You don't have a solution. It seems like one element here that's coming in for me strongly is that we're all focusing on the brother and what's going on for him.

[62:01]

And this is, that's an important element in trying to control his behavior with his animal. And it's like, everyone's offering suggestions on that. And I guess, part of what I've heard you say, and kind of curiosity that comes up, given what we've been hearing, is like, what would it be like for you to be could that actually happen if you just stayed 100% in that situation, engaging and not moving again, or moving totally with that? What would that actually look like? So then I would like to ask you, is it OK with you that one solution was punch a window? Is that OK with you? Yeah, that seems OK. And it seems like as you're trying out these things, it seems like, yes, that was one. And it seems like, what would be useful to stand up? It seems like, I would imagine, for me, I can't even stay in that place if someone's putting an animal right in front of me.

[63:05]

I go somewhere. I can't even stay right in that moment as this person is doing this to this creature in their hands right in front of me. What would that be like for you? What would come up to actually stay there with whatever's arising in you? I think my intention is to go that way, but I don't think that's actually what happens. But in that situation, I think my intention would be, one, to stay there. But I would act out, because I would do something else. I don't think there would be too much emotion to just stay in that place and see what's going on. So I don't know if seeing one of those things would try.

[64:07]

I don't know if that's possible. I don't think that's the intention. Do you love your mother? I do. I don't think you suggest they were telling you that in that situation. And feeling that, or do you feel that at that time? Is there awareness of knowing that? Not to say the act of the word act, but the love, the meaning of the word act.

[65:10]

Yeah. It's just that I experience that that can turn into the expression of something that was violent. That's what I want to be aware of. Thanks for us. I think one more question. I have lots and lots and lots of questions. Because I think the word really had any kind of vocal suggestion or need to do all of these kinds of variables. Maybe nurses earlier . I don't know if everybody wants to listen to more of this or not. I'd make a suggestion.

[66:11]

Somebody say not? Yeah, I don't think this is a problem . Yeah, and you know, I care what you guys . You're going to get a sentence. Sorry. I think my biggest suggestion for you is to look at what's happening actually now. Here you are sitting in this machine, and you're looking at possibly going home and seeing And so, in fact, what's coming up for you now is something to take a look at. And what is your intention? That's something you can have some control over, some responsibility. What is your intention when you see this situation arising where somebody's bringing an animal in front of you?

[67:15]

Is your intention to respond to the animal? My intention is to make a positive contribution to the situation. Good. Study that intention. What might that intention look like? That would be my biggest suggestion for you, is to study that. You know, since you said, look what's happening now, you're in Sashen, like I'm not there, it's not happening now. We're chatting, it's not happening now. However, chatting with Mary about Christmas plans, listening to John, talking about herding small animals, and then thinking about karma brings it nicely to the present. Thank you for that. Thank you for bearing with this. I would just like to share an experience and check an understanding with you.

[68:30]

And there's a confession in it, too. The fluid imbalance in my ear that causes my hearing loss also causes some loss of balance and some unsteadiness. For some years now, I have found that I frequently stumble when I'm doing chin hands. He said, by the way, that there's a fluid imbalance in his ears that contributes to his hearing difficulties, but also contributes to some imbalance, difficulty in being balanced. So I not infrequently stumble a bit when I'm doing kin hit. It's not stable. All right? Try to speak up. I've been doing an experiment the last couple of days, and I discovered that if my attention is really, really clear when I take a step, I can do what I need to do to make it stable.

[69:39]

So a kind of kin hen samadhi has developed out of that. The same thing applies to my bowels. It's more difficult there. When you're bowing, it's difficult when you're balanced? That's right. It's difficult to get up and down without stumbling a little bit, without tripping on my rope. But if my attention is really, really strong, I can do it. And I notice when I'm doing qing hin that if I do stumble, I start to fall. I can see that my attention was going someplace else. The physical cause is not karma. But I think that a mindset that I am unsteady and I can't do some things fairly and stably

[70:47]

I can see some karmic formation in there. And that's the place where I can act. And I find that that carries over into some things, like being careful when I run into a lot of congestion at the shoe rack, where I put my socks on so I don't knock other people over, grab at things too quickly and get in somebody's way begins to make a difference. So the confession is living with that karmic formation for some time without being aware of how it's affecting me and my actions and other people. So I just wanted to check that understanding with you And I want to say one other thing, and that is that I find your teaching extremely nourishing for me.

[71:54]

And when you say, I have lots more to say, but you stop. I feel very bad sometimes. So I would like to encourage you some days not to cut your time too short. By the way, I'm deeply moved by what you're saying. Could you hear that? Yes. What I wanted to say seems a little shaken up by the discussion with Steph. So I'll try to stay on what I was starting with, which was when I left the Zendo, a few minutes before when I was in my room before lecture, when I went to the place where I take off my okesa and kneel, and kneeling facing my bed and my altars and the other side of it, and there was a little mouse.

[73:17]

sitting on the blanket on the bed, looking straight at me, just like that, just right there. And I went, oh. And I backed up a little and took off my case and took off my Kuromo and went to the bathroom. And then I thought, well, little friend, I don't want you to stay in my bed. So I got a paper bag, and I put the mouse in the bag, and I put it outside. A living mouse? A live mouse. Yes. This is part of the story. So I put it right outside. And it was shivering. And I guess I hadn't put my Caroma and Oquesa back on yet. So I put them back on. And then I thought the little mouse is shivering out there. And that doesn't want to be there. But I didn't want to encourage it to be in my room either. So I put it in, again, in this little bag. And I took it over to one of the cabin crew rooms and liberated it there, where it continued to shiver. But I was rushing to be at lecture. And then I thought, there's this little mouse that's probably dying, or it wouldn't have been so passive.

[74:21]

So I wanted to go and get it and put it back in my room in a warm box. So now the little mouse, and it may not have been dying because when I got back over there, it had moved considerable distance from where I sat it and it started to run away from me. So hopefully it will warm up and recover and I can liberate it to the outdoors. And I have to say, I was sitting here, wondering what to do and I kind of didn't I couldn't attend to what I mean I attended but I was there's this little mouse and then I of course thought of the fox and I also thought of Asanga and the dog and the maggots and I just thought this little mouse was in a very particular spot you know I mean it wasn't just anywhere in my room it was like dead on where I take off my You couldn't pass it up. I couldn't pass it up. You got the picture. I got the picture. A sangha was in your room. That would be great. So I'm also feeling a little bit shaken up from the interaction with Steph, but I'm kind of coming up anyway.

[76:00]

So I have a reoccurring sticking point around determinism, and particularly when you bring up Dogen. And a response that I have, or kind of an alternative interpretation of the bear's meeting with death, as kind of a counterpoint to Dogen's commentary. And this is a question for you, if you see that this could be possible. Is, like, whether the bear's karma to be killed by the hunter, by the hunters and by the person that he gave protection to? And could it have been a benefit, because of his karmic link with the person he gave protection to, for his body to have been given to the Sangha to eat, and possibly he could have been reborn as

[77:09]

a human bringing forth even more positive benefit in the next life because this person had eaten or had killed him. Does that make sense? I heard you present a story. Are you asking me if I understand the story? Yes. Yes, I do. Okay. One part of the movie was It was originally offered to the sangha for food, but when they found out what it was, because they didn't know at that time what they were offering, then the monks did not eat the meat. Right. But they ceremonially... They celebrated a voice offer. Yes. Is there a gap in my understanding of the laws of cause and effect? I wouldn't say that there's a gap. I would just say that the subtleties of how cause-effect works are more profound than emptiness.

[78:21]

So to say there's a gap is just to say that until our vision is completely clear, what we're seeing here is stories, not direct perception. So what we just told now is a reasonable story, And I think other people could tell other reasonable stories, interesting stories, happy stories. Some people could tell some horrible stories, perhaps, too. But they're all stories. Is karma a story? Karma is not a story. But when we usually look at karma, we approach it through a story. We have a story of our intention, first of all. Our intention is not actually a story. It's a pattern of relationship. But we have a conceptual version of it first. And then we can have a direct perception. But the direct perception is still a cognitive enclosure of our relationship with the universe. And how our cognitive enclosures work, and how the patterns of relationship in our mind work, that working is the working of karma.

[79:27]

And we can have stories of how it works. You just heard a story about how it works. But that's not the actual way that it happened. That's a story about what happened. Right. And then you told another story, which is fine. And Dogen's interpretation was also a story. He didn't actually have an interpretation. He just had a response. His response was, let us not have a mind like this. His response is, may we have a mind that sees kindness and wants to repay it. That's his vow, and that's his karma at the moment. That's his intention. I guess my response to Dogen is I can't help but feel like there's some leaning towards determinism. And I felt that after you read the poem by also the master who compiled the serenity, that I felt like, and this is, I've been kind of holding onto this and I'm investing it now.

[80:34]

I felt like we shifted and kind of leaned towards Dogen's determinism. I felt like there was the way that we held that was a little bit leaning towards and reaffirming determinism. Yeah. I'm not saying that that's the case, because if we say that's the case, you're also getting a little unified. But there is that danger. And that's why I keep bringing this up. And I would say more about this later, that Dogen's ambivalent about this teaching of moral causation. In one sense, he's really like saying, in one sense, he's really teaching the law of cause and effect, in one sense, He doesn't want people to reify it. So he's vibrating on this. And so, yeah, you may have felt a tendency, a leaning towards reifying, towards dogmatizing this teaching. Maybe there was.

[81:37]

But there's certainly the danger of it when we have deep faith in something. If you don't believe in something, then there's a possibility of reifying not believing in it. Like there really is no consequence. That's another position. You can be deterministic about, or not deterministic, but you can be reified, non-determinism. You can reify that there is just chaos. Yes, it does and it's helpful. You can reify that too. There's a danger that we will. But I kind of personally feel that I want to express myself right up to the point where there's a risk of dogmatism. Rather than back away from it and feel like, you know, I'm not going to express myself fully because it might get dogmatic. I have to go right up to the risk of dogmatism, right up to the risk of determinism in saying that karma has effect, and say that with a strength

[82:48]

fervor that's in danger of becoming deterministic. Rather than back away from it and be lazy and confused and lost. So the one side is creating prisons in our minds. The other side is trying to avoid that so we can be free, but then pulling up what we need in order to be free. Which is the clarity that comes with observing cause and effect in a proper way. I kind of felt like when you read the poem, you were leaping beyond either of those. And I want to invite you to continue leaping beyond with us and giving voice to what that sounds like. Thank you for the invitation.

[83:53]

I accept. I want to repay your kindness. And when I was a doan here some time ago, the Ino was crazy. And he was a bully and very, very mean to one of the younger doans. And it was driving me crazy, driving me crazy. And I didn't know what to do because I felt so powerless. And so I went and asked the teacher for some kind of idea of what I might do, because I couldn't think of one at all.

[85:02]

And so the teacher said, when he does it again, when he bullies that person again, leave. Leave. Just leave Zendo. Then tell him first. Tell him you're going to do that first. So, with Steph... Tell him that if he's in again... Yes. I will be leaving. I will be leaving if you do that. Yes. And so I told him and I left twice. And after the second time, he stopped doing it. So, when I hear Steph, The same stuff occurs inside of me. I can feel it, that kind of powerlessness of being trapped in this place for two weeks. I think not. So I would say that you contact brother and family, saying that if anything like this occurs, even once, while you're there, you're leaving, then do it.

[86:17]

That's all I have to say. And you, of course, are the teacher. Well, that was a hard day today, right? We all felt a lot of pain, but I thought again, a very non-violent response to the pain. I don't feel anybody was blaming anybody for it. It's just we have painful situations and I really appreciate your warm response to all this pain. You were great. You could have got impatient, but you didn't. Maybe you did, but you didn't see it. So thank you very much. Amen.

[87:21]

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