Good morning. Well, today is the mid I think is the mid more or less back to period. Is that right? Well, I didn't know I was going to give a talk until the break after breakfast. But I like this kind of challenge. I don't like... It's a kind of game, you know. I like that kind of game. See how fast you can put together a talk. I enjoy that. I don't enjoy board games. And I don't enjoy mind games. But I do enjoy this as a kind of game. So, today's talk will be on the koan from the Mulan Tan, Master Mulan's collection of koans.

[01:17]

And it's called, Daitsu Chisho Buddha. The reason I chose this particular koan is because it is illustrative of some of the subject matter that we've been studying in our class, in our Thursday night class. Dogen's zazen qin, which means the acupuncture needle, or the prod, or the point, meaning of Zazen. So, this koan, I've talked about this before and you may be familiar with it. A monk asked Koyo Seijo, Koyo Seijo was

[02:22]

for ten kalpas and could not attain buddhahood. He did not become a buddha. How could this be? Ten kalpas. So Sejo said, your question is self-explanatory. The monk asked, he meditated so long, why could he not attain buddhahood? And Sejo said, because he was a non-attained buddha. So Master Mulan has a comment. He says, I allow the barbarian's realization, but I do not allow his understanding. When an ignorant person realizes it, that person is the sage. When the sage understands, that person is an ignorant person. Ascanuma has a verse, and in his verse he says, better to emancipate your mind than your body.

[03:44]

When the mind is emancipated, the body is free. When both body and mind are emancipated, even gods and spirits ignore So, to go back to the beginning, Datsushisho. Datsushisho means something like Buddha of great penetration and perfect wisdom. So that's his name. So you can imagine his stature. So a monk asked Koyo Seijo, Daitsu Jisho Buddha sat in Zazen. Sat in Zazen is where we usually express our activity.

[04:54]

But what is sitting in Zazen? What does that mean, that he sat in Zazen? Someone expressed it as sitting or standing in the center of a circle where light issues forth. So, in other words, sitting in that place which is the very center of the universe. This is what he means by Zazen. He said in Zazen, he said that the very center of the universe, that place, that circle, the center of the circle where light issues forth.

[05:56]

So, he is expressing, we say, We don't sit zazen to attain enlightenment. We sit zazen in order to express our nature. That's the expression. To express our buddha nature. So, Daijutsu Shishla Buddha sat in zazen for ten kalpas, but he could not attain buddhahood. There's a saying, a story of this man who, or woman, whoever it was, standing in the middle of the river and saying, where's the water? Where's the water? There's also a saying, selling water by the side of the river. He did not become a Buddha.

[07:02]

How could this be? And Saint Joseph said, your question is self-explanatory. The answer to the question. Why did he not become, he said, in Zazen 4, ten kalpas, you know, a kalpa is like, as you know, there are various time periods in a kalpa. So, a kalpa, one of the time periods is when a heavenly maiden floats down across the Mount Everest and with a gossamer cloth she goes, swipes the top of the mountains and she does this once every Kalpa until it's gone. We can say once every 10 billion years, you know, until it's gone. So that's the link with Kalpa. Akalpa is also no time at all.

[08:06]

Totally timeless. When we sit in Samadhi of Zazen, it's timeless, except for the timekeeper. We always want to have an advanced student be the timekeeper. because the timekeeper has enough samadhi power to be able to sit as us and at the same time be in the world of time. So, how can this be? So, since you said your question is self-explanatory, the monk asked, he meditated so long Why could he not attain Buddhahood? And Seijo said, because he is a non-attained Buddha. So this brings up the question of attainment and non-attainment. And what are we doing in Zazen? What are we trying to attain in Zazen?

[09:14]

This is the old story, of course. Rather than This brings up the story of Nangaku Ejo and Baso, who was his disciple. Nangaku Ejo was the disciple of the Sixth Ancestor, Kuinan, and Baso was Nangaku's disciple. So Nangaku, or Baso, was sitting in Zazen one day. Nangaku came along and he said, what are you doing sitting so fixedly in Zazen?

[10:19]

Why are you doing Zazen anyway? What is it that you're doing? What's the purpose? Baso said, well, I'm fixing to become a Buddha. I'm really practicing hard to become a Buddha. And Nansen picked up a tile, and he started to rub the tile. And Baso said, why are you rubbing the towel, teacher? And Nangaka said, well, I'm rubbing the tile to turn it into a mirror. And Masa said, well, how can you turn a tile into a mirror by rubbing it? And Nagarjuna said, how could you become a Buddha by sitting Zazen? And of course, usually, the usual understanding of this is

[11:19]

that it's useless to sit Zazen. If all the effort of Zazen doesn't make you become a Buddha, why are you doing it? If it doesn't lead anywhere, if there's no purpose, if there's no result, like attaining enlightenment or becoming... We don't usually use the term... In America, Buddha doesn't have the same meaning it does in the East, I believe. We usually use the word God. And sometimes teachers will say God or Buddha as a kind of way of bringing together, or not bringing together, but since we don't have the same feeling about both people, about Buddhism and about God, sometimes the word God is used.

[12:40]

So it's like in the early days, in like the 6th century in China, when Buddhism came from The Indians, the Indian Buddhists, used Taoist terms to express Buddhist understanding. And they did that for some long time, until Taoism became somewhat equated with Buddhism. And then when people started understanding the difference between Buddhism and Taoism, they separated them. But the word Tao itself is a Taoist term, and we use it in Chinese Buddhism to talk about the way. But using those terms, it's not that they're the same, but just for practical purposes, to use them interchangeably without interchanging the meaning.

[13:45]

So, he said, why not, why could you, he mentioned, the monk asked, he meditated so long, why could he not attain Buddhahood? And the sage said, because he was a non-attained Buddha. So in Mullah's comment, he says, I allow the barbarian's realization, but I do not allow his understanding. Barbarian can refer to Bodhidharma, because the red-bearded barbarian is what they call Bodhidharma, how they call Bodhidharma, one of his appellations. Apparently he was from India. But you seem to have a red beard, so it's interesting.

[14:52]

So I allow the barbarian's realization but don't allow his understanding. So here we have understanding and realization. Understanding is like the Indian word kahya. means understanding. It's like intellectual understanding. Realization is prajna, which means intuitive understanding rather than mental construction. So intuitive understanding without going through the process of thinking. So I allow the barbarian's realization, but I don't allow his understanding.

[16:03]

So understanding is important, but it's not the thing itself. And he says, when an ignorant person realizes it, that person is a sage. But when the sage understands it, that person is ignorant. Well, that's logical. This would be fair game for Dogon. Because what Dogon does with this kind of statement is to turn it around and use it to mean the opposite. So I would take the place of Dogon here. realizes that that person is a sage. That's right. And when a sage understands it, that person is ignorant. But the word ignorant has various meanings. It's also translated as ordinary.

[17:08]

So if you say an ordinary person realizes that that person is a sage, and when a sage understands it, that person is ordinary. not to be a sage. But when an ordinary person... I'll take that back. The wisdom of an ordinary sage becomes The end of practice is to be ordinary.

[18:11]

The goal of practice is to be ordinary. One becomes a sage through practice, but that's not the goal. The goal is to be ordinary. that person is a sage. But usually we want something high. The higher you get, the more, the heavier a base you need. So, you know, the goal of practice is actually to create a base. So, we say practice without looking for something.

[19:20]

Simply practice. So here is Luangta's verse. Better to emancipate the mind than the body. Well, we know that the body and the mind are not two things. Right? to emancipate the body. Master Dogen talks about, after talking about Baso and Nangaku and the tile, he talks about, and gives an example, when you have a cart and an ox, And you want to move the cart. Do you beat the cart or do you beat the horse? So the horse is kind of... or the ox. The ox is like the mind. And the cart is like the body. Or you could say the ox is like enlightenment and the cart is like practice.

[20:31]

You can use that analogy for both. If you want the cart to move, do you whip? Or do you prod? Do you prod the horse or the cart? Well, in our practice, we whip the cart. It's okay to whip the horse. Ordinarily, we whip the horse or the ox. Suzuki Roshi does the same thing. He says, the horse, and then in a later sense, oh no, the ox. You know what I mean. If I say horse, it's interchangeable with ox. But we simply, it's okay to whip the ox, but there's a problem. It means we're seeking enlightenment.

[21:35]

In order to practice, we have to whip the cart. And when we whip the cart, the cart and the horse both go. But if you're simply whipping the horse, the cart's too heavy. The cart... It doesn't matter where you hit, actually. If you whip the cart, the whole thing goes. If you whip the horse, the whole thing goes. But whipping the cart is more important. The important part is whipping the cart. And then the horse will go. Yes. If you whip the cart, the horse will go. Because they're one thing. In order for the horse, the horse is wonderful, the ox, wonderful.

[22:39]

And that's where the enlightenment is. You might say, why don't you just cut the reins and let the horse go? Why should the horse be pulling the cart? That's called freedom, right? The horse has its freedom from the cart. But that's false freedom because the horse or the ox needs the cart. The ox has to have the cart in order for the horse to have a purpose in life. So we direct our attention to practice and not worry about where it's going or the future or what's next.

[23:48]

To whip the horse is our gaining idea. to whip the cart is where we actually live. So Zazen is whipping the cart. And then the horse, or the ox, thrives. It's funny, but he says, Mu Man says, when the mind is emancipated, the body is free. because they're one. When both body and mind are emancipated, even gods and spirits ignore worldly power. Well, worldly power... One time I asked It's like not seeking something, or not using your power to advantage.

[25:25]

If you practice sincerely, you will gain some spiritual power. That's defilement. It can just be there. If you become self-conscious, in other words. So, to always be careful how you treat things. If you do have some power or some ability, it's easy to forget your surroundings and start bumping into things and creating problems. We see this a lot with people who gain some spiritual ability and some power and some standing and it goes to the head.

[26:36]

It goes to their ox, actually. That's the ox becoming too headstrong. The hardest thing to control is that power. That's why we always have to be always walking on the bottom. Always giving weight. or ballast to our ship. The more power we have, the more we attain, the heavier has to be our ballast. good at.

[27:59]

Did you have any questions? David? What about the expression? Taming the ox. Taming the ox. When I was on Mount Isan, I didn't pay so much attention to Master Isan, but I ate Master Isan's rice and I shit mesquite on shit.

[29:03]

The only thing I did was attend to a water buffalo. He was really something. He was wild as could be. And he'd run into somebody's property and start you know, eating everything inside and kicking things over. And I'd have to whip him to get him into shape. And, um, so this was going on all the time. And little by little, um, I could get him under control. But he, but he would just follow whatever his nose, he would just get, you know, whatever passed by his nose he would follow. and really hard to control. But what a wonderful creature he was. I loved him.

[30:07]

But after 30 years, maybe not that long, 20, now that we've been doing this for so long, He just stands in front of my face. And what an adorable creature he is. He just won't go away, even if I push him. No matter how I beat him, he just won't go away. He just stays there in front of my face all day long. Does that answer your question? Sure does. Kate? About that title. That famous tile. The thing is, yes, sitting in Zazen won't turn me into something I already am. Oh yes it will. It just won't turn you into something you're not.

[31:12]

Okay. But the tile, we already have Buddha nature, right? We can't attain it. So the tile is never going to be a mirror, and it isn't somehow already a mirror. So I don't understand the analogy very well. Yes, it's not an analogy. According to your methodology, polishing a tile is to make it into a mirror. But it doesn't look like what your concept of a mirror is. Whatever you polish becomes a mirror, but you become a mirror for the time. Whatever we do, whatever we engage with becomes a mirror, not just the time.

[32:22]

Mirror means our ultimately true nature. That's what a mirror is. Mirror means... We don't polish the tile to become a tile, to become a mirror. We just polish the tile, that's all. When we just polish the tile, then it's a mirror. But if we polish the tile to become a mirror, then it's just a tile. Do you understand? Not very well. When you sit in Zazen to become a Buddha, you'll never become a Buddha. But if you simply sit in Zazen, if you simply polish your dial, Buddha is there. I understand that. I'm still a little confused.

[33:29]

That's the simile. Thank you very much for your talk. This seems like sort of a little bit of a tangent in the purpose maybe of the talk, but I was just wondering if you could say a few sentences about the idea of Taoism and God and Buddhism. I feel like I was confused about that era and maybe how it's changed. Tao is more of a working philosophy. In the East, philosophies are not separated from activity. And I can say that I know so much about the Tao, Taoism. Buddhism, actually, Buddha is not God.

[34:32]

Buddha is the great matrix of existence. And a god has so many different connotations and meanings, but often we think of a god as some creator. But in Buddhism, everything is self-creating, instead of having a creator. Because through karma, through our actions, existence continues to roll on through causes and conditions which are continually perpetuating to that exhibit. So we say nothing really exists by itself independently, but everything exists co-dependently with everything else. So that's the great matrix of existence.

[35:43]

Which is different than positing a deity. Because a deity usually is just a beginning. But according to the Dharma of Buddhism, there's no real beginning. There's just endless beginnings and endings. But, at the same time, there is this interdependent matrix, it's like the ocean of the waves. So, in the great ocean of existence, there are many waves, which are you and me, and everything else. So it's different than having a deity. But, you know, we can say people often, just in order to stop controversy, you say Buddhism or God.

[36:54]

Just meaning, like, the highest thing. Right? Thank you. Yeah. When you say the ox needs the cart, it sounds like enlightenment needs It has to be a matrix. There has to be an environment for something to happen. But then, when you say the ox needs a cart so that you have a purpose in life, it sounds a little bit like a gaining idea. What is the difference between a purpose in life and a gaining idea? Yeah. Purpose in life means I live life in order to live life. That's not gaining anything. But gaining would be I want to practice to gain enlightenment. That's a gaining idea. So gaining idea is not bad, it's just wrong.

[37:57]

Purpose in life could be wrong too. What could be? Purpose in life... Well, purpose in life could be wrong, yes. I didn't finish. Let me say a little more. This is also harking back to something you said Thursday night, which is the same thing, which you said you can have a goal or a purpose in life without having or gaining an idea. And then you said something similar to what you just said. So our goal is to be ourself, right? Well, that seems maybe just as deluded as having a goal of becoming a Buddha. Because I don't know what myself is. What am I talking about if I say that? So it's okay to have a goal of becoming a Buddha. But you have a goal of becoming a Buddha until you realize that you don't need that goal. What about the other goal?

[39:17]

Becoming yourself? You don't need that either. Right. So, you know, if you understand who you are, this is why in Buddhism we say beings have no inherent self. But when you realize that you have no inherent self, you belong to the universe, right? This is not mine, this is the universe's body. But I say it's my body. OK? It's OK to say it's my body. But I have to realize that it's the universe's body. I didn't do anything. It is. It's not my fault. But there is an I that works with it. And so there is a consciousness that works with this body in order to maintain it with the other bodies in the world, in our world, so that while there is this existence which is continually changing and converting and so on, we can have a life together

[40:38]

But our real self, our total self includes that. But our true self is bigger than that. That's why we say, don't be self-centered. Don't be self-clinging. Because when we're self-centered and self-clinging, we can't realize the bigger extent of our body, which is the whole universe. I have no objection to anything you just said. Thank you. So, is there still a problem? I'm talking about a goal. That was my question. A goal? Yeah, our goal is to be ourselves. In other words, to manifest our true body. To let our true body manifest through us, actually. No goal. That's a good goal, but it's not gaining anything. When we say be yourself, the worst thing you can say to some people is just be yourself.

[41:45]

It doesn't mean to be your ego self. It means to be your big self. True self. Big self. That big self, when you turn yourself over, this small self over to the big self, then It's like instead of walking this narrow line, you're walking this huge space, which is endless. A fish swims like a fish. A bird flies like a bird. It never leaves the ocean. The fish never leaves the ocean. The bird never leaves the sky. Did a fish ever have a goal? This is what Suzuki Roshi, the way Suzuki Roshi describes the fish. The fish goes... All day long. Tamar? What about to live and be lived for the benefit of all beings? Yes.

[42:46]

That means your life and the life of all beings are totally intertwined. That's a good goal. Yes, that's a good goal. We have a good goal, but it's not gaining anything. Right. No. That's right. I guess the way I look at it is I find that when I focus on whether or not I'm getting ahead, then I have a problem. And if I'm focused on whether I'm living and being lived for the benefit of all beings, then things are clearer. Yes, but when self starts getting too big, that's what we have to do. I'm sorry, but what about the goal of improving a skill? It's okay, but we have to realize that it's not as profound as navigating

[44:00]

That's fine. But it's not profound. It's non-gaining. But an improved skill can benefit others. Sure. Yeah. Yes. Working for the benefit of all beings. Turning your life over to the benefit of all beings. I wish I could talk about more, but it's time to end.

[44:29]

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