What do you think the future of Zen practice will be in Europe? Will it be primarily a lay practice? Will it be also a monastic practice? Or will it be a mixture? And will it be a mixture which is a happenstance? Or will it be a mixture which is dynamic and an integrated practice that is part of both lay and monastic.

[01:06]

If I ask you that, which I am, you can, whatever you're, you can answer as a prediction based on what's already happened. But you can also answer as a decision. Because we are, sounds very schmalzy, we are the future. You know, if we hadn't decided to get the eyes on it, The Dharma Sangha in Europe would be quite different.

[02:08]

And look, we've been using this room for 22 years. It's not a monastery, but it's a particular place we can meet regularly. So, there's no question that institutional frameworks make a difference. Now, it will be a prediction because, I mean, it will be a decision Because we do have, as a Sangha, a decision to make. Should we purchase Hotzenholz or not?

[03:15]

Then, of course, if it is possible, we have to think about it. What kind of difference will it make or will it make no difference? No decision has been made so far. Okay, so what about whatever you have to say? Partly, of course, I want to hear about your discussion of yesterday afternoon. Yes, Rosa. Who just did a practice period recently? Not quite so recently, but still. Yes, but it seems fresh to me. Yes, but it seems fresh to me. So in our small group yesterday afternoon there were quite a variety of people.

[04:40]

And also Christian was in this group. Which one? Christian of Preston. And Christian of Hoffer. So in our group also the monastic element was present. And again I realized how important it is for me and also I think for the entire Sangha that we have this monastic base. And for this monastic basis, we need male and female monks. ...

[05:47]

And I also realized that in order for somebody to take the decision whether he or she will become a monk, it is important that we as a group, as a sangha, have an opportunity for a practice period. And for me, there is this question how this will develop in future. Is it absolutely necessary that we in Europe have a place where we can provide for a practice period? And this is also related to the question how Dhamma Sangha will develop. Will it remain a kind of US-American-German-Austrian friendship, or shall it develop in two separate parts of a European tamasanga and a US-American?

[07:39]

If this separation does not happen, I don't see the urgent necessity to create a place in Europe where it is possible to provide a practice period in the future. Okay, that's your conclusion. Okay, das ist deine, die Schlussfolgerung, die du ziehst. Was it more or less the conclusion of your whole group? War das mehr oder weniger der Schluss, den deine ganze Gruppe gezogen hat? Nein, das ist mehr das, was in mir gestanden ist, in Gesprächen in der kleinen Gruppe. No, that's more or less what is my conclusion, which I drew in the group, but also in the evening with another group, when we had a glass of wine. Oh, was the wine part of the decision? Okay, someone else? Yes.

[08:50]

I think that what we discussed in our small group yesterday quite to an extent where different members of the Sangha are at the moment in relation to the question of being a lay person, being a monk. Can I interrupt a second? Which is that I almost never use the word monk. I use the word monastic. Because a lay person doesn't have to become a monk to be a monastic. So the ordination as a monk is quite separate from being a monastic. It can be. So almost everybody of us in the small group could identify certain elements of monastic practice.

[10:27]

He or she is practicing in his or her everyday life. It starts with daily sitting and continues with mindfulness practices which might be discontinuous and also only short but still they are there. Without going into the exact result of the small group, to summarize, one can say that the monastic, that many of us experience concretely at the Johanneshof, for example in Seychelles or less intensely in the Seminaries, is very much involved in both lives and also really

[11:32]

And I don't want to go too much into the results or the discussion in the groups, but what we could see is that for most of us, more or less, experiences we had or we are having at Johanneshof in a monastic practice, they are somehow infusing our daily practice as lay people. And as far as I am concerned, it has become very important to me, so to speak, to draw strength and influence from this only short span of time that I spend in the monastic realm and to bring it to life in my life. And as it concerns myself, for me, it became very, very important that I was able to, or to the extent I'm able to, to take the experiences of a monastic practice in the short periods I am at Johanneshof and am able to take this strength and this force into my daily life as a lay person.

[12:51]

And therefore I think that more or less most of us are already a kind of hybrid between monastic and lay person. And from where we are right now I think this development will continue and therefore I see a strengthening of this overlapping and interweaving of monastic and lay practice. I think It is important to promote this development, which already is happening anyway.

[14:06]

And one reason for that is that our ordinary culture does not support a Buddhist monastic practice. and therefore we have the obligation we must take care that this gang of lay people supports and supports and promotes this monastic practice and monastics but ultimately the source for this is the monastic But I think basically the source for all of that is still the monastic. And this is my personal perspective or my personal feeling I have is that though I'm living a lay life, I feel myself more...

[15:18]

more drawn to or even more part of monastic life. And therefore I think that we have to take care that appropriate physical conditions and frameworks are present for that. And for that we need, part of that is to take care and to develop Johanneshof. But what also belongs to that is a reasonable and prudent decision about this project of Hotzenholz. Okay, so we're kind of mongrel monks. Mongrel? Mongrel is a dog of mixed parentage.

[16:40]

Bastard, I didn't say that. I mean, that's what you say with dogs. Oh, you do in German? Yes. So a mongrel is... Yeah, but I like Bastard better. So in other words, it's clear from what you said that the presence of Johanneshof Okay, someone else. Okay. I was at Johanneshof for the first time in March this year. And it was for me both sobering and inspiring.

[17:49]

Sobering, sobering, okay. I wanted to give my romantic idea of myself in the monastery and my personal development, the development of my psyche and to be able to give it in an appropriate time. I was sober as concerns my romantic ideas that I would be able within a certain period of time to devote to my own psychological and spiritual development. Because I noticed that there is also a monastic age. Because I realized that there is also something like a monastic everyday life. And this monastic everyday life also hinders my development in the same way as my ordinary everyday life hinders this development.

[19:10]

I was also inspired. What was also inspired? What was inspiring for me was a feeling, an experience of something that developed in me in this one week as if in a steamer. And this inspiring was something, a feeling or an experience which somehow like in a pressure cooker developed within this one week. During the following weeks and months, this feeling rolled into my practice and accompanied me and thus became a feeling of awareness.

[20:17]

And this sensation in the following weeks evolved in me and in this way developed from a sensation to a perception. Thank you. Thank you very much. And I was very grateful for that and I also realized that this kind of experience is only possible within a monastery or a monastic environment. But what I also find very inspiring in this seminar is the presence of Christian because I find it rather beautiful when it's not only me who is traveling to the monastery but also when the monastery to a certain extent travels to you right

[21:42]

Yeah, so that's kind of ideal situation for me. Okay. Kristen. Yeah. Gerhard said a lot of things that I agree with regarding my personal practice, which has developed very much over the monastery and feels taught, nourished and nourished. So what I would like to say is very much connected to what Gerhard said, that my own practice developed very much in a monastic environment and also is nourished a lot by monastic experience. And in that perspective, it's not clear to me whether it's possible to have a lay sangha which is not connected to a monastery.

[23:05]

Because we can observe with Johanneshof that this enabled the creation of a Sanger which shows us tremendous stability. and um So what is important for me and that's something Gerhard did not raise is that there are places and that there are that there are also in future teachers.

[24:36]

Insofern ist die Frage von Hotzenholz für mich eine renovante Frage, aber sie ist in Bezug auf die Realisation I really see difficulties there. And for me, she doesn't have the same weight as the question of the teacher Saksaishi. And as concerns Rotzenholz, I see that it is important, but it doesn't have that relevance for me in comparison to the question of the succession of teachers. And I also see difficulties in the realization of this project. Yeah. I don't think this has to be a referendum on whether we purchase Holzenholz or not. In fact, I didn't even plan to have the topic of monastic and lay, but I was asked to do that, so fine.

[25:46]

But inevitably it's going to come up, whether we like the idea or not. But mainly right now I'm interested in how you feel about this relationship of monastic and lay. So I don't want this to become a referendum whether we buy Ottenholz or not. I didn't even suggest the title to monastic and lay practice for this seminar, but I was asked to do it and I did. But it is of course the case that this topic of Hotzenholz will inevitably arise. But I am especially interested in hearing your comments on what you actually think about the relationship between lay people and monks and monastic practice. Yes, Justine. For me, We start over again?

[26:48]

Yes. So our amazing experiment we did showed that what huge potential there is in lay practice. And And that our practices are quite ripe, mature already, and that made me very happy.

[28:00]

And what was also important was the trust and faith in one's own practice and also the feeling of empowerment or that we can and are allowed to make our own decisions experiences and that we also can develop practice further. And though Paul Rosenblum-Roshi supported us and accompanied us in this experiment, An important part nevertheless was that we found our way and tried our way out by ourselves.

[29:14]

And although we did opening ceremonies several times, it was still something different that we did it on our own and also developed it from our own. And nevertheless, I ask myself the question during this deep winter practice, whether and how realized lay practice is possible. What practice is possible? Realized lay practice. Okay. Or actual practice. We are so embodied practice in everyday life.

[30:29]

And this, I think, is really a dimension where the monastery is an indispensable basis. So you think... a monastic unit somewhere is an indispensable basis for your deep winter practice experiment. Is that what you're saying? Is that what you're saying? naturally the winter practice was perfect as it was. But I think to take a step further needs a more firm foundation in monastic practice.

[31:39]

And for myself that means that I haven't been at Johanneshof now for several years. So for myself this means that I decide for myself that I want to be more regularly at Johanneshof or more often. So the winter, deep winter practice period makes you maybe... Deep winter practice term. Not term. Seminar. What leads you to also want to go to Johanneshof, son? So this deep winter practice leads you to want to go to Johanneshof more often. Yes, I think this monastic aspect is important.

[32:59]

Yes, I would like to add to that that basically my situation is similar to Gerhard's. What comes to mind as an aspect, as someone who is actually very far away, for example from the Viennese Sangha, who lives far away, that for me it is very important that the monastic element is there, because I have the feeling, and of course I often come to the monastery when I am there, But for me, who is somebody who lives quite remote from the Vienna Sangha, and for me it is important, therefore the monastic element is for me very important, because when I get in touch in Europe, I am connecting to the monastery very often. And I have the feeling that the monastery, I have the feeling that the monastery So, and I have the feeling that the monastery also somehow includes or transforms the experience which are made in a more wider Sangha and that means that I am connecting to the monastery when I am in Europe.

[34:26]

Okay. Now, let's have one more, and then I think this conversation is going to go on for a while, so we should have a break pretty soon. Yes, I think I can be quite brief. Oh, that's too bad. So during this discussion I realized that I wouldn't be sitting here if there wouldn't be this fascinating possibility for me to make this a monastic experience. and although I can say this week not this week and not next week repeatedly still there is this possibility where I could say yes I would like to go okay I'll wait okay

[35:51]

Let me say something before we have a break. I talked to Nicole last night about the fire. It seems that the fires, most of the fires or all the fires around Kreston were arson. At least that's what the fire department, the police and the newspaper thinks. So maybe we're a little safer right now because there's firemen and policemen all over the place. She says. When I called her up, I said, have we burned down yet? She said, no, no. So she also said that she thinks the word monastery is, she tells her friends, what I'm doing here is not a monastery in the way you think it is. I mean her friends call her up from Europe.

[37:15]

You poor thing looking like a plucked chicken living in this prison of a monastery. And she says, it's not like that at all. And You know, Charles Olsen, you don't know who he is, but he's a poet and he was the last head of Black Mountain College. And Charles Olsen, that was a poet and the last... Director von Black Mountain College. And it listed for tenor 15 years or so, and it was the avant-garde of the avant-garde in the United States. The top painters and poets and composers and so forth all were at Black Mountain College, a big section of it.

[38:38]

And Charles Olson came to visit me at San Francisco Zen Center. He said, oh, you're the successor of Black Mountain College. You're the next step. And so, you know, isomorphically, Zen monasteries and European monsters are the same. Isomorphic means they have the same form now, but genetically the source of the forms are different. like the beak of a bird and my nose may look similar but they have a different genetic history.

[39:53]

You know, we don't take vows of poverty, obedience, and chastity. It's not about a relationship to God. And it's not about restraint. It's about expression. It's about the fullness of how you live, not restraint. a restrained way of living. In Japan, there's no distinction between priest and monk. It's assumed that some people take the role of a priest, but it's assumed that all have monastic training. It's assumed that and even small temples are considered to be small monasteries places to meditate because meditation is assumed to be the source of it all

[41:10]

And I was just, of course, at the Garrison Institute, which I've told you about where I had this pioneer Zen teachers meeting. And it was a huge former Capuchin, which is a kind of Franciscan monastery. And if the atmosphere is worse than a... excuse me for saying so, atmospheres worse than a cheap, huge American high school. Linoleum floors. Everything of the cheapest materials. Nothing was beautiful. The kind of religious room was okay.

[42:46]

But if you go into a Japanese temple, big or small, the floor is the most beautiful pieces of wood you can find. All the details are done handmade carefully. All the details are handmade and very carefully made. Wood used as much as possible as Port Orford cedar, which has the most wonderful perfume. I keep pieces of it around me and sleep with it. And the wood that is used are the most expensive cedar wood. And the whole temple smells like perfume. And I drag wood there. The gardens of Zen temples are world famous. It's all about beauty and friendship. It's just really different than the atmosphere of a European monastery. It's almost like, I mean, excuse me, I have a schmaltzy streak in me, it's almost like getting the people you love most to live with you.

[44:14]

That's what I'm doing here, except you don't live with me enough. Anyway, the conception is just different. So there's... So really, and it's very difficult to get the sense of what a European monastery is like out of the word, because Zen monastery is only similar in that we get up early and we have a schedule. And And why do we get up early? Because we want to be already meditating when first light occurs.

[45:29]

And we don't want to be controlled by the sun. We get up and the sun gets up. It does its stuff, we do our stuff. It's like that. So let's have a break.

[45:40]

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