Good morning. I'm going to speak this morning about creativity and compassion as part of our practice, or we could say it's the heart of our practice. So this zazen or zen meditation we've just been doing is a kind of creative expression. It's a kind of way of expressing something that we sometimes call Buddha nature or expressing this deeper awareness which we connect with in zazen. So in taking your posture, sitting upright, being present, we are each expressing Buddha as it appears on our own cushion or chair. So meditation, zazen

[01:11]

and practice is not primarily about understanding something or trying to figure out something. It's not about some particular experience. It's about enacting or expressing the deep awareness that we have an opportunity to connect with as we sit uprightly, relaxed, inhaling and exhaling, being present in this body and mind as it is, being open to not knowing who we are, what we're doing, how we're doing it, but just being here, being present, this body and mind, and returning to pay attention to that. So this is a kind of creative act,

[02:15]

an act of expression. And this is not just about our sitting meditation, although for us that's our focal point for this, but also it's about what happens when we stand up and start doing walking meditation, when we chant, when we go out into our lives. So this creative mode of zazen, excuse me, in many ways interacts with aspects of our daily life. So some of us here have explicitly what we call creative activities that we do, painting or making music or writing or parenting, or as counselors or therapists helping people or as teachers. All of these are creative activities, but actually in our daily life, through this awareness

[03:23]

of zazen, we can see all of our activities as creative, playful enactments of Buddha. How do we express Buddha in our various activities, in our relationships, in our presence, in our work context, in cooking, gardening, washing dishes, taking out the trash? All of our daily activities can be creative activities. And the creative activities that each of you do in your daily life, there's a kind of mysterious but deep relationship between them and zazen. So some of you have sat for the first time, a few of you for the first time this morning, which is wonderful for all of us. This isn't something that's necessarily obvious. It's

[04:28]

not something we necessarily realize. But in various ways, there is this relationship between the activity of just sitting, taking some regular time out of your life, 30 or 40 minutes, or even 15 or 20 minutes, several times a week or more, and just being present, facing the wall, facing ourselves, being willing to be in this body and mind, and to sit up brightly, and to see what that is, and to pay attention to that, gently, persistently. This informs all of the everyday creative activities that each of you do, and vice versa. So as we sit, we start to see, we start to develop a capacity. This is a practice of patience,

[05:34]

of tolerance, of awareness, of being, of learning to be able to tolerate sometimes some physical discomfort, more often just all the thoughts or feelings that are rumbling around, many thoughts that come up that we don't control. So for those of you who sat the first time, you may realize that thoughts arise, and we don't know where they come from, and we don't control our thoughts. And actually, being in control of things is not the point of this practice. How can we be open to playing with our experience, playing with our intention, playing with our activities? So this sitting practice, if someone walked in and saw us all sitting here during meditation, facing the wall, they would think of it as a very

[06:35]

kind of stern or stoic kind of activity. But I encourage you to find the play and the playfulness in your sitting and in your life. Part of how this works is that we start to have a tolerance, a wider capacity to see things in new ways, to try new things, to make mistakes, hopefully not too harmful mistakes, but to not to let go of our sense of who we are and how the world is and how we should do things and how we can control things. So we have specific forms for how to move around the meditation hall. We have specific forms for bowing and for doing service and for chanting and so forth. All of these, and also a form for doing this meditation practice. These are all ways to see, structures for seeing

[07:39]

our deeper freedom, our deeper possibility for being in new ways. And one aspect of this is fundamental. As you develop a regular sitting practice, as this starts to become part of the rhythm of your life, for some people what happens more if you come and do a longer sitting. So we offer every month either an all-day sitting or sometimes a half-day sitting or next month three days to sit for a little longer when you're ready for that. It may provide more opportunity for this, but even just sitting for one period and finding a regular rhythm of doing that through your week, we start to, without necessarily knowing it or seeing it or realizing it, we start to

[08:39]

access this deep source of creative energy, being willing to be present and upright. There is this, we could, Zen mostly talks about it in terms of metaphors, this wellspring or this spaciousness or this stream of creative awareness, creative energy. So this isn't something you should try and get a hold of or try and figure out. This isn't something you have to do anything about, actually. So again, our practice is not about reaching some new state of mind or higher state of being or anything like that. Our practice is about realizing something very deep that is already here for each of you in your body and mind, in your own way. How Buddha looks is different on

[09:50]

each cushion and chair. How you express that in your uprightness, in your breathing, is different. Yet there is this deeper energy. Some of you may recognize this when I talk about it and some not. It doesn't matter. It's there. It's not, again, not something abstract. It's not some philosophy or idea or some theory. It's much more tactile than that. So people who paint or make music or write or parent, there are visible products. Or maybe for playing music, there's a temporary, transient, audible product of your creativity. For Zen students, what we create is much more ephemeral. We create this body of Buddha. So it's not something that we don't really have a visible

[11:03]

product. But as you start to sit regularly, as you become familiar with this deeper space, whether you think about it or know it or not, your awareness and your body itself becomes more permeable, more accessible to this creative play. And part of how this works, I want to get to the compassion part of this, part of how this works is that we start to have a sense of our connectedness. So this is a basic Buddhist teaching that everything is interconnected, that everything that happens, happens dependent on mutual causation, this dependent arising of all things.

[12:06]

In some ways, the whole universe is created with this inhale and this exhale. Your whole world, including everybody you've ever known or everybody who's ever known you or all the activities you've ever done, is present here on this inhale and exhale. And we start to get a sense of that, that we are deeply connected with each other and with many beings. And that things that happen in different parts of the world are things that have happened in different parts of your life in the past or in the future affect and interact with this next breath, this last breath, and everything we do. So this deep interconnectedness is part of this creative energy,

[13:07]

a way of seeing this creative energy, a way of seeing how we are, how our zazen is related to everything that we do, all of our creative activities in our life. And again, when I talk about creative activities, I'm seeing this very widely. How you enjoy, you know, walking down the street or riding a bicycle or seeing, you know, the sights on your block. We can have that openness and freshness about our life. We can inform our life with this creative energy. From this connectedness comes what we sometimes call in Buddhism, compassion. Because this deeper creative awareness, well, it's about ourselves, but it's also about so-called others. Our usual way of

[14:10]

thinking, our usual way of seeing the world, our usual syntax and language for thinking is about subject and object. We fall into thinking of ourselves as subjects verbing objects out there to get what we want or protecting ourselves from being verbed by subjects out there or whatever. But there is this connectedness and we see that we are related to those we think, we may think of as others, we see that we are connected. So the word compassion means passion together with. Again, this looks like a very somber, stoic, stern kind of practice, just sitting upright, eyes open,

[15:11]

facing the wall. But really, you won't be able to persist in this unless you feel some passion for life, some caring about what is the quality of this life? How am I affecting the other people around me? How are they affecting me? How do we, how am I working together with all the circumstances and situations of this life? Self and others are connected. So all of you, those of you who came for the first time this morning and those of you who've been here before, all of us came to this practice, well, maybe different combinations of reasons, maybe out of some sense of wanting to be, to find some greater calm in our life, wanting stress reduction, all of that is available in

[16:14]

meditation, or wanting, or some question, wanting to know how to take care of this life, how to be this person, or some sense of loss. Many people find practice after some loss, some loved one, or some loss of some relationship, or some situation, some job. The first noble truth is that there is sadness and suffering as part of the nature of things. Compassion is about our caring about that. And because you are here this morning, I know you all care about your life and the world. So we are connected together, and the bodhisattva of compassion, the enlightening being of compassion in Buddhism and Zen is named Kanon or Kanzeon. There's an image of him on either side wall, and actually Tara, the female version, one female expression of Kanon is right by the door

[17:20]

in front. The name Kanon means to hear, or Kanzeon, to hear the suffering of the world, to hear the sounds of the world. So compassion is first and foremost in Buddhism about listening, about being open, not just to others, but also to ourselves. So we need to find a way to sit upright and present and be kind to ourselves. So if you need to change your position in the middle of a period, that's okay. But also, can you be kind to yourself and allow yourself to just sit still without moving, to be present in this body as it is? And in various ways in our life, we need to be kind to ourselves, forgive ourselves for being human beings, and be kind to others to see. I've been talking recently about Buddha nature, this quality of awareness in all people, in all beings, in all things. How do we see that in others? How do we respect others and respect ourselves? So this

[18:29]

deep creative energy is a kind of respect, a kind of honoring of our life, and of our activities, and of the situation of just sitting upright as Buddha. Now, I wanted to share a little bit of teaching about compassion. So this is from a week before last, I went to a symposium on Western socially engaged Buddhism in Western Massachusetts at the Zen Peacemakers Order, many impressive people. One of the panels, though, was about compassionate care, and specifically, care for the dying. And on this panel were a number of people who have done this quite a lot themselves, but also train others to do this, including an old friend of mine, Joan Halifax, who leads the Upaya Zen Center in Santa Fe. And she had some interesting things to say about compassion,

[19:37]

so I want to try and share this. First of all, she talked about how some people, particularly people who are in helping professions or practices, so she was thinking about it in terms of people who take care of the dying, but for several of you in the room of therapists, and others of you have, are teachers or do helping work in some way. And one of the things that happens in such, for people who do that a lot, is this, have they have this sense of what they might, what's sometimes called compassion fatigue. So Nancy's smiling, she's a therapist, and they have some sense of that. And maybe all of us do, and maybe all of us do, when we get tired of, you know, taking care of other people, or being kind, or listening to others, we may feel like, I don't want to do that anymore.

[20:39]

Well, you also have to listen to yourself. But anyway, Joan said this interesting thing, first of all, that really there's no such thing as compassion fatigue, that's a misnomer, that that happens when we are not accessing universal compassion. When we have some limited idea of compassion, when we are attached to some particular outcome, then, you know, we might feel this compassion fatigue. But this universal compassion, which is what Kanzeon and Buddhist compassion is really about, is wider than that, deeper than that, is about, I can't put it in words exactly, because to put it in words would be limited. But it's this sense, and coming back to this creative, tactile sense of expressing, of expression, that we connect with in Zazen, it's this total sense of wholeness, of

[21:46]

it's okay, of the whole universe being right here, of you, just as you are, and each of you, even those of you who have just sat one period now, we all have a sense also of our own limitations, and our own sometimes greed, and grasping, or anger, and frustration, or confusion, this is what compassion is about, is that we allow ourselves to be the person you are, not limited by, you know, your name, and personal history, and social security number, but actually what's going on now, as you sit, breathing, this body and mind. So, this universal compassion goes beyond, you know, our idea of what, how we should be compassionate, and what we should be, and how we should care for things, and how we listen. And she broke it, Joan broke it down into, she had six aspects of,

[22:49]

you know, how she sees compassion, she's obviously thought about it a lot, so I'll just share this with you, and as a way of talking about the texture of compassion, the components of compassion. So, the first one she said is empathy, emotional attunement, that we can be empathetic and experience others suffering, that we can feel something about how others feel. So, this of course is, you know, primary to the practice of listening, and to the practice of, well, anyone who's being helpful. But she said that actually empathy can be used destructively. Empathy in and of itself doesn't mean that we're going to respond in a caring kind way. We might be, we might understand somebody's suffering, and then do something, you know, cruel to them, based on that. So, empathy is not, by itself is not enough. So, what she has to say is interesting. So, empathy is the first one,

[23:54]

then concern, just to be concerned, again, about both self and others, to actually, you know, what's going on, to have some concern, to pay some attention. The third one she called positive regard, and I think this relates to what I was talking about in terms of respect and respectfulness. So, positive regard includes for ourselves. So, sometimes students get upset at themselves, because we see more fully our own limitations and our own greediness. We have to have positive regard, respect for ourselves and for others, and even for people we maybe have problem with sometimes. This, we can see this related to the practice I've talked about, about seeing good in nature in all, in all beings. It's positive regard. The next one, fourth of her six, she called insight, and it's a funny word for it,

[24:56]

because what she was talking about is to see self and other, to look and see differences, to see how I am different from others, to see the particular quality of self and other, and to see what we are to see what we are up to in our relationships with others, and to see what, and to see how others are with us. Actually, so I would call this more discernment or even discrimination, but to actually pay attention to that. The fifth one, and this is very, very important, is the desire to transform others' suffering. And I would say this includes to transform our own suffering. So, this practice of zazen, this practice of awareness, of just sitting, we talk about it, particularly in Tsuki Roshi lineage, about non-gaining attitude, not to be attached to some particular goal. And yet, there is this, there is a transformative

[25:59]

function to this, and we don't always see how that works, and it happens over time. Sometimes it happens, sometimes we have some sudden experience and let go of something, that happens too, it can happen, but the point is sustaining it. And part of that is what she's calling this fifth aspect of compassion, the desire to transform suffering. So, we actually need to be empathetic, we need to be concerned, we need to have a positive regard, we need to see how things are working, and then we have to really care about transforming this quality of suffering and difficulty in the world and in ourselves. And then the last one, I've already spoken of, is to not be attached to some particular outcome. So, how do we give ourselves, to ourselves and to all beings, and with caring, with compassion, without having some idea of what some particular outcome should be?

[27:03]

So, these are, you know, so this is interesting to consider, you know, in terms of compassion and caring and beneficial action in the world, these aspects of compassion. This is, first of all, just this empathy or emotional attunement, this concern, this positive regard or respect, this seeing into how we are related to others, this desire to transform, and then not being attached to some particular outcome. All of these are aspects of what Joan calls universal compassion, a deeper, wider compassion, not trying to manipulate things to get what we think needs to happen in some particular situation. So, I want to bring this back to the earlier discussion about creativity. I would say that to really express and be and enact this kind of compassion requires a kind of creativity, a kind of openness to seeing things in a new way,

[28:15]

a kind of playfulness, a kind of willingness to look at the situation, to listen to our own or other's suffering, or both, to see how can we be helpful to ask that question, to care about that, to be concerned, to be playful about that. So, in our lives, so we can do this in our, this creative energy that we access in our meditation practice and in our meditative awareness does inform all of our everyday creative and compassionate activities and awarenesses, and we can kind of turn towards this. So, in your own life, to see, and I'll be talking more about this tomorrow evening, to see how you can try to be creative about how to express kindness, how to care for others,

[29:17]

how to care for yourself, to be kind to yourself, too. This is absolutely necessary to really be compassionate, to not feel overwhelmed and fatigued by helping others all the time. Universal compassion means that we have some sense of balance and wholeness, and it's not that there's some particular thing that we have to do right now. To give ourselves the space to just be present and upright, to express Buddha in all kinds of ways that Shakyamuni Buddha never would have dreamed of. So, Buddha is alive in the world, in us, each of us, in our way of meeting the world, in our way of bringing our wholeness to our life, in our openness to caring, in our openness to this creative play. So, we actually have some time now for discussion, questions, responses,

[30:39]

and for people who are new here this morning, also, any basic questions about meditation, please feel free. So, questions, comments, responses? Good. I was very sleepy this morning and had a really hard time staying awake. Any suggestions? Good, enjoy that. So, this happens, this is one of the reasons why we say to sit with your eyes open. or trying to stay awake, any suggestions? Good, enjoy that. So this happens, this is one of the reasons why we say to sit with your eyes open. It's not the only reason, we sit with our ears open too, but the point of this practice is not to be, to reach some special experience, or state of mind, or state of being, it's to be with what is. So compassion means to, okay, I'm sleepy, I'm groggy this morning, how is that?

[31:41]

That's actually, I think, a very rich time to sit. So hopefully you'll have times when you're feeling more awake also, more energetic, but there's a kind of energy that happens in sleepiness. So you can also be present, and upright, and aware in the middle of sleepiness. It may be, it's most difficult because you're trying to be something other than sleepy. And of course, if someone, if you started snoring, someone next to you might poke you, and you have permission to, if somebody next to you is snoring, to gently just let them know that they're doing that if they're sleeping. For myself, it took me many years of sitting before I could fall asleep in Zazen, but yeah, be with this situation as it is. And sometimes you might be sleepy, sometimes you might be agitated,

[32:42]

concerned about something going on in your life that week, or you might be, you know, anyway, there's a continuum of awareness that includes dream and sleep, to be present and upright in the middle of that. So, good. Again, this is, being kind to yourself means being able to just be present and upright, even if you're feeling sleepy. Other comments or questions or responses, please feel free. Alex? Well, one thought I had as I was listening was, I find myself constantly looking back at this idea, it's very easy in an atmosphere like this, we have a lot of reminders of Buddha nature to acculturate that here and to feel their presence,

[33:44]

but I find it difficult when I get out and see other aspects of my life, such as my job, where there are no touchstones of Buddha nature, or my shoe, or other areas around me, to tap into their presence all the time, so I find that's for me a struggle to maintain some idea of Buddha nature environments where there's just no reminders of that idea. Good, thank you. That's a wonderful, important question for all of us. We're not practicing in a residential community or a monastery, we're out on the street, in the city, all of us have various kinds of active lives in the world, so yeah, this is the question, practically for us. One of the basic aspects of our practice is to remember Buddha, to remind ourselves of Buddha,

[34:48]

to bring back this awareness right into our everyday activities, as you're working in your everyday context, so there's a particular, there's a branch of Buddhism, not Zen, that does what's called Nembutsu practice, which is chanting the name of Buddha as a reminder. Literally, it means to remember Buddha. As Zen students, we can do that as well. So based on your connection from sitting with breathing, to just stop in the middle of your day and take a breath, and really enjoy your inhale and your exhale. Doesn't take that long, won't take you away from the work you have to do very long, but just to stop and do that. There are various tricks for this, so you say you work in a cubicle, or a desk in an office, you could have something on your desk to remind you.

[35:51]

It doesn't have to be a Buddha or a Bodhisattva image, it could be, I don't know, some natural, a pine cone, or a rock you like particularly, or it doesn't have to be, this isn't about Buddhism. This is about bringing your life to life. So yeah, have something to remind you. And there are various others, particular mindfulness practices that I've mentioned before. One is whenever the phone rings. Do you have a phone on your desk? Yeah, so when the phone rings, sometimes we can get in the habit of just reaching for the phone and picking it up on the first ring. I used to work at Parallax Press that published Thich Nhat Hanh's books, and they had this practice there, and I kind of, you graded on me a little bit, because you have to, whenever the phone rings, everybody stops everything. You're in the middle of typing a word, and you stop in the middle of the word, and wait to the fourth ring, and then take that time to breathe.

[36:51]

But you can do a more moderate version of that. If the person who's calling you really wants to talk to you, they'll still be there on the third ring. So the first ring and the second ring, you can take a breath or two, and then pick it up, just as a, so again, this is about finding ways to remind Buddha in the middle of your day. Another one, one of my teachers talked about, is whenever you walk through a doorway. I'm entering a new space. So you have doors somewhere in your office, so every time you're passing through a doorway, you may, now don't know if you forget, and you pick up the phone right away, or you walk through the doorway, and you don't think about it. That's okay, don't, you know, be compassionate to yourself and to the doorway. But sometimes you might remember, oh yeah. Okay, so there's a kind of craft or knack that we get of reminding ourselves of this kind of space that's here. So thank you for that question.

[37:54]

Other questions, practical or otherwise, any responses, please feel free. Yes, Tom. You know, when you meditate, I mean, you focus on reading, but then your mind could move away. How long should you move away before it comes back to breathing? When you realize that you're off on some train of thought, it doesn't matter if it's a couple minutes or 20 minutes. So it's not, there's not some rule about these things. It's about being alive. So, oh yeah, I'm thinking about, you know, this thing I have to do tomorrow, oh, okay. And just return to awareness. And it's not that it's bad to have those thoughts. Thoughts naturally come and go. But just when you realize, oh yeah, I'm thinking about whatever, gently then return to uprightness, inhale, exhale. So you don't have to, so trying to get rid of your thoughts or trying to manipulate your thoughts is just more thinking.

[38:56]

Just let it go. And more thoughts will likely come again shortly. Or sometimes there's a space between them. And that's okay too. Good, practical questions. Any other comments, responses about practice? Yes, Jeremy. If you don't mind, if I make a comment on what was said before about how you. No, please. The way to be generous or to be, to really to other people better and be more generous to the nation. I was trying to pose that question to Mr. Ruiz the other day. I have better tips than that, but. He gave the response of Buddha nature is a good way to respond to other people. I think I've found that if you allow yourself to see your own Buddha nature and that the line separating you from what you think is yourself Buddha nature is so microscopically small. I find that to be very helpful, really, to other people.

[40:01]

Yeah, so this Buddha nature, it's not something that we can have or not have or get, but it's just that there is this underlying possibility of awareness and respectfulness. And so to respect others, respect yourself, to see this quality of awareness in our life. Good, thank you. Dawn. For you guys, well, recently, I've noticed, I said, I don't know if I'm going to say it quite right. It took me a minute. When I used it the other night, when we're sitting, I notice just, can we be happy with just this or be content with just how we're feeling and how we're sitting just now? And so that's helped me a lot with what Joan says, with number six, kind of the outcome, just in some of my outcomes with sitting.

[41:06]

So kind of slowly working on being content with outcomes because I think I get so hung up in that, I'm expecting my expectations. I think a lot of people do, but personally, for sure, I do. And that causes so much pain and suffering, you know? And so that's been a really helpful practice with you saying that, to just be able to sit with that and like, can I be content with how I'm really feeling right now? And so that kind of connected with me with number six, which you talked about, so thank you. Yeah, I, you know, and I'm feeling this more and more that the biggest obstacle to awareness and to Zen practice for Americans particularly is that we tend to have some,

[42:09]

it's very hard to get rid of our idea of how things should be. We're having some ideal of enlightenment or meditation or Buddha or whatever. We, our minds are such that we create these ideas. It's very subtle and it's very pernicious that my Zazen shouldn't be sleeping, you know, or should be some particular way. We do have all kinds of ideas about that or how I should be as a person. You know, this is very deep and pervasive and it's a real, it's a big obstacle. Not that you should now have the idea to destroy all ideas, but just to notice that when you have some ideal of how things should be, that that's not it. But actually we're alive. It's just all about just finding the way for you to be alive in your life, to bring life to your life.

[43:11]

Thank you. Yes, Tim. Um, I've done meditation off and on or off and on. Part of it is, it's very difficult at times. It's very difficult to just sit with what comes up. And so it does feel like a somber, challenging practice at times, often. And yet I watch, I just watch the media, the telecom. And, you know, you talked about joy. Yes, good. You know, there's a lot of seemingly joy that he expresses. When do you get to that? Is that a byproduct of long-term practice? So you didn't notice your joy in this last period of meditation? No. I was with my new colleague and I was very sleepy and, you know, bouncing back and forth between,

[44:13]

I know there's antidotes, so when you feel sleepy, you know, using some of those. Yeah, you know, one of the things you can do is if you're sleepy, maybe I should mention this as a practical thing, you know, we usually say to look about 45 degree angle down, but you can raise your gaze a little bit to help raise your energy if you're feeling sleepy. So yeah, there are all these techniques, but can you enjoy just feeling sleepy? Can you enjoy, please enjoy this situation. So yes, this practice is about joyfulness and everything I've been talking about is about joyfulness. Creativity is joyful. Compassion is joyful. How do we enjoy our breath? How do we enjoy the challenges of, you know, sitting upright for 30 minutes or whatever? So again, you have some idea of joyfulness. But there's, if I may respond to this.

[45:14]

Please. There's a joy, there's all kinds of different joys, of course, but there's a naturally bubbling surface of joy. Yeah. That I kind of wonder if that happens in you. And yet, when I just mentioned this, there was kind of a, you know, kind of recognition that yes, this is a challenge. Yeah. And that it is work, you know, and that that naturally bubbling doesn't, and it's not just here, I've been in other places too. Sure. You know, that that's elusive sometimes. Yes. So sad. It's work, and that means it's also play. So this is what I've been talking about today. This source of creative energy.

[46:14]

It's joyful. It may also, it doesn't exclude the sadness. It doesn't exclude anything. But just to be able to sit and be present and upright with the difficulties and concerns and questions and sadnesses of your life. There's a kind of dignity. There's a kind of wholeness. There's a kind of joy that is available. And again, it's not your idea of joy. But enjoy the situation of being present. Just sitting. So this is a yogic practice, as I said, saying earlier during the meditation instruction, we actually sit upright. All of the forms we do here, our bows, our prostrations, our yogic practices, they're to find in our body, in our tactile sense, as opposed to our ideas,

[47:16]

some awareness or space. So one of the practices, one practice I'd like to encourage is something that Thich Nhat Hanh talks about, that while you're sitting, please smile quietly. It can be a soft smile. Doesn't mean you should try and have some idea of smiling or some idea of getting rid of all suffering. Smile in the middle of whatever's going on. So if you look at Buddha images, maybe not Bodhidharma, because he's very stern, but there's a subtle smile. And just to smile a little bit as you're sitting. To give yourself that space to enjoy the work and play of being present in the middle of concerns, in the middle of uncertainty, in the middle of all the incredible suffering of our world, in the middle of sleepiness, frustration.

[48:17]

Right in the middle of frustration, you can enjoy that. It's possible. You can say, oh yeah, here I am. I'm all concerned about, or anxious about this or that, or I'm frustrated with so-and-so, whatever. Can you just be there and enjoy that? So I know this is challenging, but plan. Kathy? I just wanted to respond briefly in that I definitely think from my own experience and from lots of people's experience, you go through a lot of difficulty. It's not easy to see the joy sometimes, because as you sit, some things come to the surface that are painful, that you become more acutely aware of, whether it's being angry at somebody in your life, or seeing yourself more honestly, or missing something, or it can be a variety of things. And so I think that that does get easier over time,

[49:20]

but there definitely is a sitting through, and Thay and I remember once when we were doing Sashin, you said that, you sat at Sashin once where somebody ran screaming from the temple at the end of the day, so that there are times when it's overwhelming. So, yes. But there's also the intense other feelings as well that come as you sit, which are positive. And yes, absolutely. Thank you for saying that. And just being able to sit and be present and upright, even in the middle of those difficulties, there's a kind of deep satisfaction that we can start to feel, that even if I'm sleepy or feeling these crummy parts of myself or whatever,

[50:21]

still I can just, I can be present and upright. And there's a dignity to that. And yeah, it does. So doing this practice regularly over time does help to support that. Nancy. I am maybe also hung up on the word enjoy as well, because I think for me, when I think of enjoying something, I think of maybe a synonym of it being to like it. And I wonder if that's maybe not completely necessary when you're talking about enjoying something. And so I wonder if it, would it be okay to use the word like appreciate or embody, and appreciate meaning also sort of to observe the value of something. Sure, all of that's there. And so our idea of enjoy is not enjoy. Enjoy means to bring joy to also. To empower, and have, and to bring, and enjoy, you know, so that, you know,

[51:25]

joy might be a good koan for many of you. What is joy? Just, you know, not based on your idea of liking something. You might really dislike something, but really enjoy it. I remember a Zen, a story about a Zen student who went to a movie, and somebody asked him afterwards, how was the movie, and he said, oh, I really enjoyed it. And I said, oh, was it a good movie? No, it was a terrible movie, but I really enjoyed myself in it. So how can you enjoy this difficulty? So I'm enjoying the tension of it's kind of time to stop, but I don't want to.

[52:06]

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