These are ideas of self and elements that prevails. It occurs in the transformation of consciousness. Such transformation is threefold, namely, the resultant is called mentation, as well as the concept of the object. Herein the consciousness called alaya, with all its seeds, is the resultant. It is unidentified in terms of concepts of object and location, perception and volition. In that context, the neutral feeling is uninterrupted and is not defined, so are contact and so on. And it proceeds like the current of a stream. Its dissipation occurs in our conscious, associated with this process endowed with four types of defilements, constantly concealed and undefined, involving self-view, self-confusion, self-esteem, and self-love, and also possessed of other forms of contact, and so on, and made of such, and made of such, is not found in the worthy one, nor in a state of cessation, nor in a superlundane path,

[01:40]

such as the second transformation. The third represents the acquisition of the sixfold object, and this is either good, bad, or indeterminate. That is associated with wholesome psychological conditions, both universal and particular, and similarly with primary as well as secondary defilements. That includes the Urinating, resolve, memory, together with concentration and wisdom are particular. and confusion, pride, view, and doubt. Furthermore, anger, enmity, hypocrisy, malice, envy, avarice, along with deception, fraudulence, self-esteem, violence,

[02:44]

the analyzing of the five forms of consciousness together or separately within the foundational consciousness is like the waves in the water. The manifestation of mental consciousness takes place always except in the sphere of non-perception in the two attainments and in the state of torpor occasioned by insensibility and absence of thought. Thus thought involves this up to here it's kind of like we're kind of ready for this in case you didn't know the next thing is kind of like the next part is just another step I have to a lot more has to come in so far we've been looking at uh

[04:10]

the formation basically of the variety of notions of self and elements, and the arising of defilement, and then all these mental events that you just read the list of. So, Last time we were just on the verge of discussing the Third Transformation, weren't we? Do you remember? Hmm? Kind of like, wasn't that where we were? Number six? Number seven? Maybe we're on seven. I guess we're on seven. You probably would have asked questions about not found in the... We ended with six. We were on six, we didn't get to seven really? Not really.

[05:13]

Okay. So... So you have consciousness and it gets transformed. It becomes something that you can hook onto. provide something to hook onto, something to be born through. Consciousness doesn't necessarily provide something to be born through. In a sense, we could imagine, again, that consciousness arises up out of organic processes, and then it's transformed in order to be something you can be born through, or something you can that you could eventually grab onto. And that transformation is called the resultant.

[06:24]

And it has these various processes like contact, attention, feeling and perception going on in it. And it proceeds, it changes, like the current of a stream. So part of what it has is some kind of sense of it being the same. And that sense of it being the same stream is part of what allows it, part of what provides the opportunity for hooking into something, to use consciousness now to hook into.

[07:36]

Do you have consciousness without organic processes? Or does consciousness arise out of that? I don't think you have consciousness without organic processes. And also, when someone is unconscious, what happens to their consciousness? Well, they can be unconscious and still this transformation could go on. As you just read, the third transformation would not be functioning in certain kinds of stupors or comas, but this one would. If it weren't, the consciousness would disperse or dissociate from the body, and we would say the body was dead. And somehow, When you remove consciousness from a body, actually the consciousness gets removed usually after some of the processes start falling down.

[08:47]

But if you remove the consciousness, the processes will also close down. Usually as a human dies, consciousness starts receding from its habitation of the body, and as it recedes, then physical processes also start closing down, like as it recedes the body gets cold and it recedes from the extremities inward. It stops being associated with certain parts of the body, in a sense, and those parts of the body become cold. Circulation stops reaching those areas. The nerves stop functioning out in those areas. And pretty soon the sense organs start turning off. The I consciousness is the first one to recede, and so on. But stop me before I get off on that one. Now we're talking about, anyway, that consciousness arises, it is a characteristic of life.

[09:52]

When they look out into the universe, some scientists look out in the universe, well, not all of them, but the biologists, if they're looking up there, the way that they would... One of the main things they look for to see if there's life someplace is to look for if there's some difference noticeable on the planet or on the planetoid. If there's difference, there may be life. You mean diversity? Hmm? Diversity of, is that what you're saying? Diversity, yeah. Diversity, difference, some sign of difference going on there. But if things seem very indistinguishable, then there's less likely life on the place. Because life, one of the things about life is it makes difference.

[10:58]

If there's no difference, There's no way to hook on to anything. So consciousness arises up out of life forms, but in order for consciousness to be used as a way to get born again, it has to provide a transformation, and that transformation is alaya. And there's a difference in alaya. There's contact. There's contact between something and something. So something has to be different from something. So consciousness, one of the basic... There's different words for basic consciousness. One is citta, which has more the feeling of just mind. Citta, the root citta, just mind. Not mentation, but mind. That's a kind of all... as the kind of like the overall impact of everything that's going on for the organism.

[12:09]

The overall impact of all the data for the organism. And I have a mind And listening to myself say that, I got kind of excited. It's kind of like somebody said, Yeah! That's what mind is. Mind is the thing about us that embraces all of us. Now, of course, every particle in us embraces every other particle. and is contained by every other particle. That's part of Buddhist teaching, too. But the thing that's talking about that, that message is coming from the mind, which is the part that sort of coordinates that interpenetration of all the parts.

[13:18]

It is the impact of all the data, and it also is the impact of all the relationships of all the data. And it turns out the brain's kind of like that. kind of by coincidence in a way. I believe there's something in the neighborhood of 10 billion neurons in the cerebral cortex, which is just part of the brain. 10 billion neurons. And the number of possible relationships between those neurons is greater than the number of subatomic particles in the known universe. So there's a physical reflection of the capacity of mind up in this part of our body.

[14:32]

Now, in case you didn't figure it out. The number of relationships between the numbers of subatomic particles in the universe is greater than the number of relationships between the neurons. When you start talking about relationships, possible relationships, then things multiply real fast, but that's the point. Mind is that which embraces or registers the impact or the impression of all that. And much more, because there's more to the brain than that. There's more to the body than just that. And all these nerves are connected to these things which are about difference. Nerves are about difference. They're connected to organs which are about difference. Organs are about difference because organs are in relationship to something, are in relationship to a field.

[15:38]

Right? So, when you don't have life, you don't have organs and fields. When you do have life, You have organs and fields. In other words, you have this and this. And this is not like this. And because this is not like this, they can... they don't just sort of go... They go, I'm over here and you're over there and we're doing something. And when they do that, they give rise to consciousness. And then consciousness is about this and this and this not being this and this interacting with this. and this separating consciousness from this. Consciousness is... Turns out then consciousness isn't... One of the ways consciousness registers difference is that consciousness is separate from the field that the organ plays with. Consciousness doesn't get in direct contact with it. However, it's like it's in contact with it. And it's also separated.

[16:39]

See the difference? So if you look at a planet, if there's no sign of difference, patterns of this and that I might even say this, although I haven't thought about it, somewhat consistent or enduring differences, then there's probably not life there. Organs and objects don't change places. Consciousness and objects don't change places. Consciousness and organs don't change places. However, consciousness and the field of the organ are very similar. Because consciousness is the impact or the impression of the field which the organ is playing with. Which is another reason why they have to be different, because if they weren't, they'd just be the same and there would be nothing happening. Except oneness.

[17:42]

So, that's how consciousness arises. But then, this funny thing happens is that consciousness then becomes a vehicle for fur... it gets mixed in with further... further life. It gets mixed in with reproduction. And then, somehow when life happens again, we call it conception, for humans anyway. And it's not really life again until this consciousness comes in there. So, for example, reproductive cells are not living things. They don't have consciousness. And they have only half genetic material, right? When they get together and consciousness turns on, it's alive. If they're together and consciousness doesn't turn on, they're not alive. And that can happen. You can have fertilized eggs that don't live. But when they live, the thing that makes them live is consciousness.

[18:50]

In other words, differentiation, so that the process of genetic unfolding can happen. Scientists have not figured out how that happens yet. There's theories, which again I try to stay away from, other than just to say consciousness once born of physicality then becomes the means by which physicality happens again. And it's not exactly that the consciousness goes on and then causes further life, but the results of life, which is consciousness, cause some kind of energy or something to interact with materiality and the opportunity to hook onto and have rebirth is provided by this first transformation of consciousness.

[19:55]

And then the second transformation of consciousness is, in a sense, this first opportunity of consciousness for hooking into. This gets kind of, in some sense, cut in two, but not necessarily like in half. It gets cut in two by getting reflected. So it's just like it was before, but now there's a reflection of it. So it's almost like it's cut in two, but actually it hasn't been split, it's just that somehow there's something which is like it that's not it, of the reflection. That's the think, that's the mentation or the reflection. And that's the second transformation. And arising in conjunction with this is a sense of self. And the sense of self then starts to defile. And the Buddhist word for defile, klesha, means to stain. Not to die in the sense of an even die, like just change the color of the whole thing.

[21:00]

More like die, like cause a defilement or a dying part of it or a stain. So the consciousness gets stained or defiled because a sense of self is born from this reflection. The reflection is the basic mental process, but then this sense of self arises with it. The sense of self is born of this reflection process. And then with this sense of self comes these fourfold afflictions or defilements. Are they called afflictions? No, they're called defilements. Four defilements or four afflictions. But the basic affliction is a sense of self, which is a kind of constriction in a system, which arises from a sense of identity now.

[22:06]

And then comes a third transformation, which is that the things which are reflected are said to be objects, are said to be external. And there's six types of objects now available. And then now you have these three transformations, and I like to think of it like this, like an umbrella sort of, or a bubble around, sort of around an ocean. And the ability to reflect things is the second transformation. And the third transformation is that... that mirror, that reflecting capacity just gets spread all around so that everything can be reflected out onto the surface. And the things that are in the water, contact, attention, feeling, perception and so on, all those things then can be reflected out on that surface.

[23:15]

Plus all this other stuff. wholesome dharmas, unwholesome dharmas, primary and secondary defilements, all this stuff then can get projected out. And all the seeds of all this stuff is in alaya. And they are functioning in alaya already. These defilements are functioning there, but they're functioning without... to say they're functioning in a very different way because there's no self or other in the alaya. So these are potential there, potential possibilities, potential relationships. But they're not really functioning until, they can't really function until you get this reflection and externality. Yeah. The commentary talks about them becoming possessed. Yeah, right.

[24:20]

So first there's a sense of self, and then they become external, and then the self can possess them. And then because of possession, there can be rejection. And then what was a potential type of relationship in a laya now becomes like an actualized... It seems like it's being acted out now or imagined as really going on and really being possessed by the self. And that actually, that whole, all that, in some ways, from where I just started, that sort of takes you all the way up to Karaka 15. All those things. Vasubandhu is a Buddhist psychologist. He's not just going to categorize all this stuff for you in these different categories and tell you all the stuff that can be, all the stuff that's in a laya that can be reflected and then projected out.

[25:31]

Reflected, giving birth to a sense of self, and then projected out all over, you know. And each thing gets its own place on the umbrella or the canopy over a laya. Yes? When he says things like, it is not found in the worthy one nor in the state of cessation, is he saying that the third transformation is this concept of object that leads to a concept of self is an unnecessary transformation that leads to... that's basically the cause of suffering. Say it again. When he says that it is not found in the worthy one, does the it refer to the Is there a transformation of consciousness? It?

[26:33]

No, manas, second. The second one isn't found there. You mean its dissipation occurs in our hardship? That one, or which one you're talking about? In verse seven it says, it is not found in the worldly one, nor in the state of cessation, nor in the super mundane path. Yeah, manas. We're talking about the second transformation. See, up above it also says that it's dissipation... No, oh, that's alaya. Alaya's dissipation occurs in arhatship. So, you can look at seven and five, five and seven, okay? So, alaya's dissipation occurs in arhatship, and then the manas, second transformation, doesn't occur in the worthy one, the arhats, in the state of cessation or the supermundane path.

[27:34]

I guess what I'm trying to see is what his recommendation is. What Vasubandha's recommendation is? I mean, apart from kind of description of consciousness, his recommendation for practice is? Well, he doesn't sound like he's recommending the arhatship, even though he's telling you that if you... in arhatship, the whole thing collapses. I mean, the whole... the system breaks down. Doesn't sound like that, right? He's saying, you know, by the way, this whole thing, we're gonna go flat in arhatship. He doesn't say, so, be an arhat, doesn't seem to say that. He just seems to be describing. But if the whole thing went flat, this whole process that follows of all these wholesome and unwholesome things and these primary and secondary defilements, all that would go flat too, because without manas there would be no reflection, so you can't have a third transformation without the second transformation.

[28:45]

And also, not only that, but good old alaya will devolve or go flat too. You said there's no life without a liar. Hmm? You said there's no life without... It doesn't kill a liar. A liar devolves. A liar kind of gets turned off, goes stale, or goes kind of like What would it be like? It's like it dissipates. Taking a different direction. It takes a different direction. What's the direction a lie usually takes? Rebirth. Rebirth? What else? Well, it seems to, in some sense, take the direction of being a transformation of consciousness.

[29:49]

Yes. So it keeps transforming and then it seems to go along with the other ones too. So the whole process of consciousness seems to get turned off, but not necessarily killing the organism. Arhats don't get reborn. So there is actually, interestingly enough, this special kind of thing that can happen to human beings called arhatship. where you seem not to get reborn anymore. And the ordinary processes get kind of dried up or burned out. They call the arhats worthy ones, and I think there's two etymologies, I can't remember exactly, but one of them means burned out. They burn out this stuff. But it also says that manas is not found in the supermundane path.

[30:49]

You wouldn't have to be an arhat to be on the supermundane path. And I guess the understanding I would offer you now is manas not found there would mean that there would be an understanding that the reflecting capacity does not actually establish separation. In the super-mundane path there would be an understanding such that manas wouldn't really function there anymore. And this self-esteem, self-view thing wouldn't hold up either. Or, put it the other way, you'd understand self-esteem, you would see through self-esteem, self-pride, self-view and self-confusion. And then the inevitable process of manas, which is endowed with these, manas wouldn't be good old manas anymore because it wouldn't be endowed with self-confusion anymore, wouldn't be much of a manas.

[31:56]

So this manas which defiles the mind and this manas, this reflecting capacity of mind which gives rise to sense of self, somehow gets undermined or it loses its effect in a way. And when it loses its effect it's almost like not found or it's avoided. And losing its effect is also like losing its cause. So when the meditator studies the function of the mind, and sees through the afflictions that arise, the afflictions with which manas is endowed, by studying the causes and conditions of manas, one, in a sense, avoids it. And you don't have to be an arhat to do that.

[33:02]

In other words, you could let the alaya go on, and the reflection keep happening, but it wouldn't be the same manas as before. Because not only would one see through the causation of these afflictions arising with manas, but one would see the causation of manas. One would see the causation of this reflecting capacity, of this transformation of consciousness. And when you see the causation of something and you focus in your meditation on the causation of something, you don't grasp the thing. But there's no you out here doing this, there's just a kind of consciousness which is called endowed with wisdom, which is of consciousness which studies causes and conditions. And by studying what he just told you, he just told you about the dependently co-arising phenomena of manas, which arises in relationship with consciousness and with these other two transformations of consciousness, as you study manas in this way,

[34:09]

as I'm, you know, I'm saying you, but anyway, as the study of manas reaches the so-called super-mundane path, you see through what manas is endowed with, namely these self, four types of self-affliction, and also you see manas, the causation of manas, so you avoid the whole scene. So, manas is... doesn't exist. There would be no concept? Hmm? Or then there would be no concept. That has not yet been dealt with. And I'll just forecast this for you. I don't know if you can register this on your blessed human brains, but Karaka, what is lit up to in Karaka 17, is the realization that therefore it is all mere concept.

[35:17]

We haven't gone through this reasoning yet. For that reason, what has thus been taught does not exist. In other words, everything up to that point that I've just taught you, by that reason, does not exist. It's just mere concept. So, there is the recommendation for practice. You see? Rather than like, check out early on as an arhat. If you just follow this process up to Karaka 17, however, the reasoning that leads you to that point is not the same as the realization. Anyway, the reasoning that would take you up through all this and then you reach Karaka 17, you finally realize that this whole story we told, by the very nature of the story we told, therefore it doesn't exist. So the recommendation of this guy, this Vasubandhu is, study this process and you'll see the process doesn't even exist, so you don't have to check out of it.

[36:24]

Matter of fact, you check out of it, you check in to being checked out, which is a temporary state of liberation for you personally. But following the course of the evolution of consciousness and studying it, you realize it doesn't even exist. which is not a checkout. It's a liberation not only of yourself, but of everybody, because that's the nature of everybody's mind. So this is the bodhisattva path. You study the mind. Don't try to, like, dry it up and blow it away, because that's a temporary thing. Eventually, this devolvement of alaya will come to an end, too, and it'll just cause another birth at some point. They say arhats aren't born again, but even though they aren't, there is. So it seems like this practice of being aha may disrupt a personal stream and yet still cause further rebirth.

[37:28]

Whereas bodhisattvas don't disrupt personal streams, they use personal streams to understand personal streams. And personal streams, personal streams as no personal streams are they understood by one who studies personal streams. Therefore we have personal streams, and there's no problem. Disrupting personal streams is based on the belief that there is personal streams, therefore watch out, they're going to come back and get you someday. Which is, the arhats don't plan on getting caught up in this thing, but in fact the Mahayana says they're going to get it again someday. Whereas if you understand personal streams, you'll understand that there aren't any personal streams, and therefore you really understand personal streams, and therefore you can have personal streams. In other words, there is freedom possible, rather than trying to fix things up, or dry them up, or turn them off, squash them down. But there is this thing, wonderful spiritual attainment, called squashing it down, turning it off, burning it out.

[38:37]

And these people are amazing spiritual beings. We don't put them down. We try not to put them down. They are amazing spiritual beings. They are personally liberated. They understand completely something. Namely, they understand greed, hate and delusion and they snuff them out. However, they don't understand that greed, hate and delusion don't exist. Otherwise, why would they be snuffing them out? And there's a special state of cessation, a yogic, which is not for arhats necessarily and not for bodhisattvas or also not forbidden to bodhisattvas when they're on vacation, called a state of cessation. It's a yogic state where you actually can turn the mind off for a little while and you just actually make it go flat. But a different kind of flat than the arhats flat. It only lasts for a maximum of seven days.

[39:38]

Yes? I think I got back to that point. What point? Where I was trying to find my way back in two words. When you get there, there's nothing at all at Kong. He says, that turning the mind around. And then he said, what do you see? And he said, when I get there, I don't see anything at all. Is that this place you go for seven days? Not quite. Oh, is this? No, no, no, no, no. No, no. No, that's a yogic trance that you get into by doing the, what we call the, you do the four kinds of, the four what we call rupadhatu jhanas, the four trances of the sphere of fine material. and you do the four non-material trances, and at the top, in the penthouse of the non-material trances, is a state of what's called asamnika, where asamnika, there's no perception.

[40:40]

In other words, the mind turned off. But also, you don't fall for that and think it's nirvana. So then you have the nirodha samapati. In other words, you have the attainment of nirodha, of a cessation. If you think... that that respite is nirvana, then it's a different state. But this is talking about actually what's called neurodissimopathy, the attainment of cessation. And it lasts for a certain period of time. And during that time, it's like those in the movies, you know, where time stops and then you come back out and it's the same time. That kind of thing. And it's a state where there's neither, we say there's neither perception nor non-perception, neither feeling nor non-feeling. And it's the highest possible mundane state. And Shakyamuni Buddha attained that state. How could you even think it was nirvana at that state? Would there even be any thought?

[41:43]

Well, I guess your understanding as you're going into it and when you come out of it was that it's nirvana. In other words, if you're deluded when you go in, you're deluded when you come out. It's not a state of enlightenment. If you think you're heading towards enlightenment, this is the highest mundane experience. There's no feeling, really, or perception. You don't have any problems there. It's like the best possible mundane peace that there could be. It's like heroin or whatever, you know. It's really relaxing. And if you think as you're going into it, you start salivating and think you're really going to get into something swell, then you get into what's called asamnika nir samapati, which is not what the Buddhist saints get into.

[42:44]

And if you understand that this is still something that's just composed of causes and conditions, then you have some Buddhist understanding of that and you don't even fall down at this very high level of kind of like, this is so good, maybe this is it, maybe this is enough. And that level of understanding, if you have that when you go into it, you'll have that when you come out. You don't evolve in that state. It isn't like you go in there and get kind of more insight. There's nothing to work on, there's nothing to study, really. You don't have any secondary, primary or secondary defilements, you don't have any wholesome dharmas, you don't have any processes to study, you're not studying, it's a vacation. And you, it's like so, it's 7.30 and you're hungry when you go in, and you come out, or you're just about to take a bite of a pancake, and you come out and you say, let's have that pancake. You're no more or less hungry than you were when you went in, you're no more or less greedy for it than you were when you went in. Basically, it's just a vacation.

[43:47]

That's why Shakyamuni Buddha said, no thanks. I mean, not no thanks, this isn't what I was looking for. Although when he died, he did go into the fourth rupa jhana, just sort of like, you know, it's kind of like, would you take me into the parlor kind of thing? I mean, you know, you get to choose which room. I like the one with the view over the ocean when I go, or something like that. Except that instead of being carded in there, he did this little yogic thing. Actually, before he died, he went... Up to this state of cessation. And when he got there, some of the monks said, well, I guess that's it for the master. And then someone said, no, he's just in that state of cessation. And then he went... And they say, I'm back. Hi. Now I'm going to go. And he went, boop, [...] boop.

[44:49]

And then he went. He did this little yogic trip at the end. It's kind of cute. He did that. They said so in the scriptures. But it isn't just going up and down as Buddhism. He just happened to do that kind of stuff. It's like somebody else would play a role, what do you call it, a Something of golf, what do you call that when you go around the golf course? Around. Go out and play a round of golf and die in the 17th green or something, you know. Plunk. It's just kind of like, it's just a style thing. But he was a yogi, so he did this yogic thing, which is part of our tradition is our founder was a yogi. But he said, you don't have to be a yogi. But he was, so he did that. If our founder was a golfer, then... He might have died on the golf course if that was kind of one of his favorite things. So that's state of cessation, okay?

[45:52]

In a state of cessation, manas doesn't really function because manas is possessed of or belongs to or has associated with it contact, feeling, perception, right? But in the state of cessation there's really not any feeling or any perception, so poor old Manas goes... Can't reflect anything. How can you reflect? All the stuff's kind of like... So that's in Manas, that's in that state of cessation. And in Arhatship... No, not Arhatship. In Supermundane Path you see through the process. And what's the other one? Oh, and in Arhatship Well, I don't know what the difference between the worthy one and the state of sas... No. ...refer to the super mundane path of somebody who wasn't trying to be an arhat, because arhats are also on a super mundane path. I don't know if you're following any of this, it's not very important, though, don't worry.

[46:54]

He's just telling you, he's kind of like, we're climbing this mountain, he says, okay, well, over there, you know, the whole rest of the trip would not apply if we went into this cave. There's beings in that cave, and in the cave, the whole thing, you know, there's no hiking boots, there's no backpacks, there's nothing. Just want you to know that, let's go. And when we get to the top, there's not even going to be a mountain. So, don't worry. But that's what he's talking about. Is that clear, sort of? This is just, you know, kind of like, you know, Abhidharma stuff that you learn if you study Abhidharma. And he's just sort of like, Just zipping right through there. You don't have to learn this stuff to follow this discourse. You don't have to go study all this stuff. But if you want to, this stuff is taught in the Abhidharma Kosha in Chapter 3 and Chapter 8. all the details about these jhanas, these states.

[48:03]

And in chapter six they teach about the supramundane path and arhat's path. And also, by the way, there's some debate about whether Ramanas really does go flat in arhatship. In that big fat book that Jim asked about, the big fat commentary, the doctrine of mere consciousness, there's some debate about whether that really happens. But, you know, if it does, that's how I would say it happens. Okay? Any other questions about this? Okay. I have a question. Yes. Well, in the Alaya it says, the resultant which is called meditation, and then in the When it starts talking about mana... It doesn't say the resultant which is called meditation, does it? What? Oh, it says what... Oh.

[49:05]

What? Such transformations to the resultant, what is called meditation, as well as... The resultant, but... What is called meditation, but... The resultant isn't called meditation. Oh, okay, that's right. Because later, then, mana is of the nature of meditation, right? Right. And meditation means thinking or reflecting. Okay? How you doing? Okay? So, also Abhidharma goes and teaches you all about what these, if you want to study all these different mental factors that they're listing here, you can study them and find out about how they work and stuff like that. Very interesting. That's taught in Chapter 2 of the Abhidharma Kosha, all these dharmas here, all these mental factors are taught there. Okay, now 15 is where something's different.

[50:15]

We're done listing this stuff and we're going to get into 15, 16, and 17 are what are going to lead to the reasoning of why this whole process that we just described doesn't really exist. But before we even get into that, I'll tell you why, or you tell me why. Tell me why. Because everything is, or awareness of everything is what's been created. Right. By? By these three transformations which... Right. She's right there, now right again. You want to be right again? Say something more, maybe you'll get three in a row. Therefore... Quit now, though, if you want to.

[51:19]

I'll quit. Okay. What's another reason besides the third one she didn't say or... What's another reason why this whole thing doesn't exist? Yes? Well, because it's all a concept. He starts talking about consciousness, but never... See, he says the third transformation is the concept of the object, right? And then he says, basically, associated with this concept of the object. So you have the reflection, the mirror up there, right? And then you make a concept of this as being external, and then this mirror gets spread over everything, right? And you project all this stuff up there. All that's just concept. Okay? This is all concept. The whole discussion is concept. All the stuff they list are just these elements that are swirling on this conceptual surface. They don't really exist. All this stuff doesn't exist because it's just a reflection of something which we haven't said the status of. But these are not these things. These are just reflections. And not only that, but they're just concepts.

[52:20]

They're externality, too, which is very important to us, which makes possible their function. That externality is also just conceptual. Okay? Okay? So because it's just concept, it doesn't really exist. It's just concepts. And these concepts are created by this process, these causes and conditions, which Cynthia just alluded to. It doesn't say there isn't concept. They're real concepts. They're real concepts. But concepts don't exist. Why don't they exist? They don't exist by what I just said, if you think about it, but also because they're dependent on all these causes and conditions. They're empty. of inherent existence, they don't really exist. And you might say, well, what about the things that were originally reflected? Do those seeds exist? We can talk about that later. But anyway, all the stuff we just said is just mere concept. That's kind of a foreshortened thing about what he's going to say now.

[53:23]

Okay, so arising, the arising of the five forms of consciousness together or separately within the foundational consciousness is like waves in the water. Now, the foundational consciousness is, this, we're given this kind of like, A little bit changing gears here a little ways. He's not calling the third transformation the foundational consciousness. Actually, I don't know if I should say it that way.

[54:26]

There are like six kinds of consciousness, right? There's eye consciousness, ear consciousness, nose consciousness, tongue consciousness, body consciousness, touch consciousness, skin consciousness, whatever it is. And then there's mind consciousness. Mind consciousness is the foundational consciousness, because mind consciousness is present with all those other consciousnesses. And mind consciousness is really the third transformation of consciousness, because mind consciousness is the consciousness that goes with conceptualization, because mind consciousness is the consciousness that goes with manas being its organ, And the objects of mind consciousness are conceptions. So, it's saying that the other consciousnesses arise out of this mind consciousness like waves on the ocean or on the water. Yes?

[55:30]

If modus is an organ, then its field is that which is to be thought? What is the organ in which it plays? I mean, what is the field in which it plays in? Well, it plays with the field of concepts. Except for it, the difference between manas and the other sense organs, like the eyes, the eye has a field. Strictly, the way they use this, it's kind of important, the distinction is that sense consciousnesses don't have objects, excuse me, The organs don't have objects, organs have fields. And then they play in the field, and the playing in the field gives rise to a consciousness, and then the consciousness can't play in the field, the consciousness works with what the organ plays with, separated by the organ, so then the consciousness reaches over the organ in a sense. It can't really touch, it can't really touch, because it's not physical, you see?

[56:35]

So it kind of deals with sensation, physicality, through the organ. So then, the way it relates to the objects, it has objects. Organs don't have objects. Organs have fields. See, organs play in fields, and their play in the fields gives rise to consciousness, and then consciousness has the elements of the field of the organs as its objects. So consciousness can touch the field of the organ by making the field of the organ into objects, because it can have objects, but it can't have a field. So consciousness has objects, organs have fields. Consciousness doesn't have a field. And by making the field into objects, which is... you know, not the field, it deals with the field in terms of itself.

[57:41]

It can't actually get in the field and yet it relates to the field in relationship to the way the field works with the organ, which gives rise to itself. Whereas manas, it plays a role of the organ in relationship, but this time what is in relationship is not sense material. Manas is working with mental material. with the transformation of consciousness. So again, there's the organ playing with the field, giving rise to consciousness. Then this consciousness gets transformed into that, into alaya, and then that which reflects it, and that which is born out of this reflection. And then manas is playing with these, with these, its field in a sense, as an organ, when it has a field, its field is really a consciousness. And so the objects... And then the third transformation of consciousness is that these are objects.

[58:48]

You see? The third transformation is... So first of all you have the transformation of a lie, then you have the reflection of it. The third transformation is these are objects. It's a transformation. Somehow they become objects. It's a transformation. In that sense, That consciousness is the foundational consciousness. It's like it's a mind consciousness playing a similar role as a sense consciousness was, and it seems to be over here, now separated from its objects by its organ. But actually it's just a fact of what's being reflected in manas being called an object, being called external. So it's actually all one thing called mind, which transforms in these three ways. And in the process here of this transformation, this sense of self is cropped up now, defiling the situation. And on this reflected surface, which is said to be external, are all kinds of changes, which are now considered to be external to the self, or the self can possess them.

[60:09]

And part of what's up there is impermanence. because a lie is going . So that thing's going changing. A lie is changing, so the world's changing. So you're changing. So your death's out there. So then the self even gets more selfie. The trick is now we have to somehow bring the self into view, and these afflictions help. If you bring the self into view, You can also bring in, with this teaching, you can also bring in the transformations, and you've got all the stuff working there by this study of causes and conditions, which this text is now showing you, the causes and conditions of this process. Yes? Well, he states, or your statement line, five percates, it reflects. Yes. But he doesn't tell you why it does that, or it doesn't give you a logic.

[61:11]

Can you give us logic as to why that happens? Yeah, because the universe wants to know itself. And, or at least this section of the universe, we don't have any other examples in any place we know about where the universe has any way to know itself except through this process. So, this is very kind of like human-centric kind of way of thinking, I'm sorry, but anyway. The human-centric thing is a projection of the same thing, the self that was born from self-knowledge. So you see, what I'm saying is that knowing things is part of what we are serving for this planet and for this area around this planet. Objective knowledge. So there's something in the evolution of life that seems to be driving it towards objective knowledge towards knowing something.

[62:14]

And therefore, knowing something gives rise to a sense of self. So there's something about life that a lot of scientists say now, they can see that it drives towards something like a self. Not necessarily like Lorraine and Reb, but some kind of self-identity. Life is... They feel that if you study biology, you see that there is a vector towards self-development, towards identity, towards an I. It is biologically determined that evolution is going towards towards a sense of I and towards a sense of identity and towards objective knowledge. That's the evolutionary reason for it. And the problems that arise in it, I would say, although I haven't heard scientists say this, but the problems that arise in conjunction with this evolution, I would say, complete the picture, because they cause you

[63:21]

to want to integrate this later development with earlier developments, because the earlier developments have not been eliminated. The earlier developments of life are still going on in us. And if you live a life just in the latest layer of development, you feel, you know, well, it's just not very juicy. Besides, anyway, it is juicy. It's just you're in denial. and you're getting pushed around by these basic forces of animalness and pre-objective knowledge level of development, they're having an effect on you, but you're just kind of like out of touch, out to lunch, stupid. So the pain caused by this development of self causes us to not be comfortable being stupid. It makes intelligence a necessity. rather than kind of like, well, you can do it now and then.

[64:23]

In other words, compassion is necessary. You've got to be compassionate because suffering arises because of this self-development. You've got to be compassionate because this objective knowledge gives rise to a sense of self, which gives rise to a sense of separation, which gives rise to misery. So you can't just sit back and say, well, you know, nice sunset today, and blah, blah, blah. There's something more painful here which is driving you to understand the illusoriness of this, which is this state of intelligence, which is compassion, which is born of wisdom into this process. So that's my biological reason for having a self and objective knowledge, is that this life seems to be heading in that direction. And you can say, well, what's the reason for life And I would say the reason for life is that somehow the universe wanted to know itself and it knew it needed life to do it.

[65:31]

And we're part of the life system but we're also part of this kind of fairly recent development called consciousness of difference of separation, blah, blah, blah. So we're kind of like newcomers, right? We haven't been around very long compared to fishes. Yes? So, I've heard this, bear with me if you would. Okay. The point of life could be to find its own origin, the start of itself, and where it came from, to go back to where it's the same place. That's not exactly the point of it. That's more like the, what do you call it, the sort of like, that's an important step, is to go back. But what comes before, you know, what gets us in a position of being away from our origin is also the point of life, the point of life.

[66:36]

Namely, to be able to know things takes us away from our origin. True. I understand that concept, but I don't know if I'm finding the right words to explain it. In order to... Life as a whole is a process of going through the self-knowledge. Is that understanding yourself or your origin? Understanding yourself is the point of life. But going back to your origins doesn't exhaust understanding of self. Understanding self is... Understanding yourself is the point, but in the process you go back to your origin. And in order to go back to your origin, you have to understand yourself. Exactly. However,

[67:39]

by understanding yourself and going back to your origin, you understand yourself even more than before you got back. But you have to understand yourself very well in order to go back. But you don't really go back, it's just that you realize you never lost it, which seems like going back. It's like you find something that you lost, so you feel like you went back. But really you never lost it, it's just you couldn't see it because you just moved to another level of evolution, In a later level of evolution, you couldn't, you can't look back at a place where you don't have the equipment you now have. But if you study this equipment, you get reintegrated with the earlier stage, so then you understand yourself better. But in order to achieve integration, you have to understand yourself up here. There's no self down here. And yet, this self that's not down here is exactly the reason why this self is up here. So therefore, this self up here is identical with this self down here. They're just not integrated. Right. When they're integrated, then you understand yourself even more. And then when you understand yourself even more, you understand other people more. And then you get to include other people in this process, so then you get into teaching and including other people in the process of studying themselves.

[68:48]

So that's also part of learning about yourself. What's the whole? The idea of knowing the whole and not just the latest? It's the idea of knowing the whole and realizing that the whole is yourself and yourself is the whole and all that. So it's like the process, The point of life is, what do you call it, it's infinite, it's endless process. The point is there's no point, it never ends, the process of studying this wonder called life. Can you say it never begins? You can say it never begins too, because beginning is just something that people themselves think of. In the soup of life there's no kind of like, okay, There's the beginning. There is a beginning, you know, and then right over here, there's the beginning, and then you put a thing up here and reflect it out. See, there's the beginning, and then you make it external, and there is it out there. The beginning's swirling around on the surface of the objects of consciousness, too. But it's just, you know, it doesn't exist. It's not like there isn't one. It just doesn't exist. It's just a figment.

[69:48]

It's just a fantasy. It's just a concept. But it's a good one, one of our favorites. It's almost as good as the end. It's remembering what you forgot, and then when you get to work on this stuff, then you get to remember it more of the time. More of the time? Well, you could say that, or you get to be the remembrance of it more of the time. And then being that reminds other people, and then they remember. Yeah, they don't know what they're being reminded of, but something's... Something's, you know, something's cool. It's very attractive. Yeah, it is. It's also a pain in the butt. What? What'd you say? You said it's also a pain in the butt. What's a pain in the butt?

[70:50]

It's the whole process. Oh, yeah. And again, if it weren't a pain in the butt, we'd be more likely to be lazy. Why not just enjoy the pleasure? That's why it's hard to... Most people will not do this hard work. We'll take on this extra burden in addition to all the other stuff we have to do to take on this burden of this study. We won't do it unless we have a sense of it needs to be done. And pain is one of the good reminders Do your work. Couldn't I just do what I already know how to do? I get so comfortable. Now I have to learn this new trick. What? That won't last. And that part of the reason why, even when you're comfortable, you know, this isn't going to work for so long, so maybe I should get up and go to Zazen now, before I have to. I'm still healthy, rather than wait until I'm dead.

[71:54]

or really sick, or really good, or something like that. I have a question on the finding out the other levels of yourself. What is your opinion of what they call a holotropic, or graph work, to use that as a process? I don't know enough about it to comment. I did it myself and it just seemed like a kind of a sweaty period of Zazen to me. With music. But I noticed the people all around me were doing various different things. The people who didn't practice a lot of Zazen, they were having these other experiences.

[72:59]

So I don't think it had much effect on a Zen yogi. I mean, I don't think they would feel, I didn't feel like, well, this is kind of like a waste of time or something. It was fun. It was like, you know, it's very similar to like running up a mountain, which I also like to do. And, you know, things happen when you're up in the mountains, too. Certain chemicals start flowing through my system and I think everything's fine. Somebody's smart around here. So I don't know. But for people that can't run up mountains, if they somehow did run up a mountain, they would be quite surprised at what happened to them if suddenly they found themselves running up a mountain, right? they are familiar with those chemicals blowing, they say, mm-hmm, and all kinds of things would happen.

[73:59]

And I notice things do happen to people, but I don't know, I don't know what the, how that's all going to unfold, you know. Like, you know, I'm not comparing anything to anything, but it just popped in my mind that, you know, in Ireland, people are, particularly the men are kind of unfriendly to each other in ordinary circumstances, but... I'll take it, I'll say it this way. I was talking to an Irish person, and I told him that in Japan there's this thing about if men go out drinking with guys and they tell you how they really feel, you know, ordinarily they're just kind of like, and then you go out drinking with them and they just tell you everything. And so then you know everything. And just don't, because you're drinking, no more posturing, no more status, just everybody can be, you know, just like boys together.

[75:05]

They just tell you. Don't worry about whether, you know, you hold it against them or they'll insult you or blah, blah, blah. He says, this guy said, it's the same in Ireland. You go, you go, you get drunk, and then that's an excuse to just say how you feel and cry and laugh and, you know, stuff like that. And then the next day, it's like it never happened. He's back, just sort of like... And you say, well, you can remember what the guy said, but it doesn't count. You know? It doesn't count. So, um, I think that, uh, We breathe. That's why it's so much fun. And it's also why it's so addictive. Pretend it doesn't count. But this process, you see, and that's also our hardship thing, you know. Well, that's really a cool thing, too. Turn off the other light and stuff like that. It's really cool. But then, what happens when it's over? You're in the same place, basically. It doesn't count.

[76:06]

What counts is... To sit there with these people who are all posturing and not telling you the truth and sort of like, oh, God. Will you please tell me the truth? No, I won't. Okay. And cry or something. Sit up straight. Sit still. Tell the truth. Something happens. It counts. Because you didn't change, you know, you didn't mess with the situation, you just didn't do anything. And the situation reveals itself as such, rather than like, well, put this way, put that way. So, I don't know, any kind of method, any kind of technique is, I don't know what to say. Whereas this is more not, this isn't a technique, this is like, study what's happening. And if you study what's happening, you find out it's not happening. And therefore you don't have to have it not happen.

[77:08]

You're free of it. It actually says the universe is really running quite nicely. We're playing a certain role here. We have no choice. We've got to be humans. We've got to do this favor for the universe and the universe gives us the favor of letting us do the favor. Everybody's helping everybody. It's really a groovy deal. So now we can end class. And next week It says sheen, so if you come here next week, things will be different. I'll be in the zendo. Will there be class the following week? There will be class the following week. Want to have a class the following week? Okay, it's a deal. So in two weeks I have a class, and if anybody comes to class next week, go to the zendo. Look for me there, too. My name's Reb. Just don't say anything to me. What? I said, just don't say anything to me.

[78:13]

A friend of mine, one of my old friends, who I practiced with at Taos of Hearts, had a dream one time, which he didn't remember. I have all these great stories about him that he doesn't know. It is a dream. Did he tell you when he was drunk? I never was drinking with him until like you know I've known him for about 30 years I never drank with him until about last year he's okay when he's drinking but anyway back in those days when we were monks at Tassajara he had a dream one time he said I had a dream that we had a party in the Zendo He said, it was just kind of like usual, you know, we were all sitting in our assigned seats with our robes on and everything, cross-legged. It was just like regular Zazen, except you could talk. So he'd come and go, Hi, Janine, how are you? How's your Zazen? Not bad. What are you meditating on here?

[79:15]

You could laugh like that, but you just sat there in your seat, you know. Yeah. May our intention...

[79:24]

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