According to Vasubandhu, that don't have outflows are space, nirvana and the path, like the three dharmas. But actually what he said was, the three things are space, the two kinds of nirvana and the path. That's what he said. Yeah. So the path isn't the dharma. The path is sort of any given moment of life. All the dharmas that are present at that moment is what composes the path. The path is a constellation of what's happening in such a way that there's no outflow. But it's not one of the dharmas. Whereas there's other three things, space, the two kinds of nirvana, are three dharmas in his system. So it's 72 plus 3, 75 dharmas in the system. The path is not one of the dharmas.

[01:01]

The path is kind of like the total ecology of a given moment of life. We could either start by talking about the outflows, or people who had questions at the beginning of the class could ask the questions, whichever way. You want to start? Could you give more examples? Okay. Do you want me to give an example of the first kind? Another example of the first kind? Okay. One of the best examples that I ever experienced has to do with, here at Tassajara, building this Fonder's Hall. So a friend of mine was really the person who built it, and I worked on it myself.

[02:08]

And I knew his aesthetic values. And one of the things that happened was that the walls, outside walls on the upper part have Tassajara mud on the walls, which right away looked very warm and ancient. And it even started cracking right away, so it looked like an old building after a few days. And then it started cracking more and more, and finally started to fall off, which was too much. So then someone said, well, I know what I can do with this thing. I'll just take all that mud off and put plywood up and spray it with stucco, and that won't fall off or crack. And then some other person said, expressed to me, you know, that would really be aesthetically

[03:14]

bad to do it that way. And I think this person also said that he heard of a chemical you can add to the mud so it won't crack. So he thought we should test out that chemical and see if we could produce a mud that wouldn't crack. But this person also went into, you know, expressed some energy and some emotion about how bad it would be to do it this other way with the stucco and the plywood. And he influenced me quite a bit. Although I agreed with him anyway, his emotion affected me. And then not only did I think that it would be better to do it, to experiment with putting this chemical in the mud to hold the mud together. Not only did I think that, but I had an emotional charge about it. So that I actually got upset about it.

[04:16]

I didn't just think it was better, I got emotional about it. And this person that was talking to me, he was that way too. But it was, so that's one thing. And then I noticed, I started to talk to people about my value that we do it this way. And I noticed that I was, that I was talking kind of funny. And also it helped me to notice this because at first I didn't have such a strong feeling. And I could watch my emotional intensity getting stronger. And at a certain point I was talking to another person involved in the process here at Zen Center. And I noticed that he was kind of shrinking away from me when I talked. And kind of like agreeing too fast to what I was saying, in a way. And I kind of, I started to feel more and more like, I better stop talking about this because I'm going to cause a lot of trouble. Because I was coming on like a big piece of heavy equipment, like a bulldozer.

[05:19]

With all this emotion about this thing. And I also noticed, not only was I talking funny and was there kind of a charge on what I was saying. But I also noticed that I was upset in meditation too. Kind of thinking about it and upset about it. And I thought of that quote by Geng Shan. And I really felt like I was in a poisonous sea. So that's an example of, I noticed the outflow. And I think it was outflow around views. All this emotion and charge was because I was, not only did I think it would be better to do that way. But I thought it was right to do it that way and wrong to do it the other way. So then I got really upset about it that way. And one day I was sitting in the meditation hall and I noticed this turbulence. And the words clearly observed came up in my mind.

[06:20]

And then I just dropped the whole thing. I stopped holding to it. My mind became calm right away. And from then on, then I got involved again in the process. And started making telephone calls and telling people what I thought. But I wasn't pushing people around anymore with my charge. And the way they did it was they found this chemical, put it in the mud. Put the mud up and it's doing just fine so far. Been a couple of years now. And the mud's not cracking. And it's regular, you know, that's our mud. So it worked out pretty well. Partly because I noticed that I was getting so charged. I kind of got out of the process when I noticed how charged I was. And worked on myself for a while. And so there's no human casualties involved in putting that wall up.

[07:26]

Because no one really got pushed out of shape or hurt by the process. But I could have caused a lot of trouble. And in the end, it might be stucco too because I caused so much trouble. But that often happens. That you have a good point. But because you hold it, people won't listen to you. Another kind of game I played one time was I went to a... I was watching the Super Bowl. It's a football game, big football game in America. And one year, several years ago, the Oakland from San Francisco Bay Area team was playing Minnesota where I grew up. So I went to the baseball, football game just to watch two teams from my two hometowns play. And I could choose, I could want either side to win. I didn't care really which side won. Either side was fine. I was happy that these two teams were playing. And everybody in the room was wanting Oakland to win except for me.

[08:30]

So I thought, well, I think maybe I'll want Minnesota to win. And just see how that feels. And so I did. And I noticed that when I wanted Minnesota to win, I thought the people in the room were obnoxious. Do you know that word, obnoxious? Like vulgar and very stupid. Egocentric. So then I decided, well, I think I'll switch over to Oakland's side. And then I wanted Oakland to win. And then I thought I was much happier and I liked the people better. I thought they had good points. And again, I switched back to Minnesota. And again, I thought they were really obnoxious for what they were saying. Their whole attitude was really off. Oakland won the game that day.

[09:33]

Today is the Super Bowl. So that makes them clear about their views. The emotion. Yes? I think what's happening for me is that I don't have trouble understanding these examples when they don't seem to be, at least on a service level, like the death. When Michael yesterday brought up an example of the neo-Nazi movement, it occurred to me that maybe I became one big charge. So I was just thinking of things like a couple years ago, last year when the war started, the same thing started happening. So when it becomes that big, I don't understand how you can remain in a certain position and not express that charge and still be able to express what I want to express.

[10:42]

Change can take place. Well, you're changing your language because you said you don't understand how you can maintain a certain position and not get charged. You get charged because you do maintain a position. That's how you get charged. So when it comes to a matter of life and death, then you think, well, in this case, I can't move. I've got to really stay fixed in this position of not killing, right? This one I can't move on. So then you get charged. So that's exactly what happens when the situation becomes a matter of life and death. You think, well, now spirituality doesn't... This is real life. This isn't like practice time. I can't do practice now. I have to deal with this reality. And then you throw your practice out the window and become hysterical. And that's what happens because it's a matter of life and death. It shows that when it comes to life and death, we really don't believe in our practice. And we just sort of go for what we think is happening. And then we become all caught up.

[11:44]

And then whoever's strongest wins. In this case, the people who won a war were stronger, so they won. They got to go to war, right? And the people who weren't in favor of war did not have enough charisma, enough light to turn the rest of the nation around. It's an incredible challenge, but they didn't have it. Could you go with other countries? I don't know. Like, you know, 25,000 super Buddhas. It would take a lot to turn around what this country was going towards, but in fact, the people who resisted, you can say they did what they did, and they did it as well as they did, but it didn't stop the people from going to war. The question was, in some cases, what people do in order to stop something, even when they fail, after they look back at it, they feel good about the way they did it. In other cases, they do something to stop something, and they don't stop it,

[12:44]

and they feel bad about the way that they did it, not because they lost, but because the way they did it was not so good. So each of us has to look at what we did to influence this country away from war and see if what we did was on the mark for our own values, or whether we compromised, and then also, in a sense, didn't have as much influence as we might have had. So when you say not so good, if you look back and see that what you do wasn't so good, does that mean it was charged? Charged, yeah. Charged, self-righteous, I know it's right, this kind of attitude, disliking other people, whatever it was, I don't know, whatever doesn't go with your values. See if you compromise your values for the sake of, you know, something that seems so intensely important.

[13:44]

The funny thing is that, for me, holding to, on one side, when it's a very small thing, holding to opinion can make it into a big thing, and then when it's a big thing, you think, well, now I'm certainly entitled to hold to my opinions. So, basically, in most situations, we think it's okay to hold to our views, because in small things we think, well, I can probably get by with it, it's not true, but I can probably get by with it, and in big things we say, I definitely can get by with it, I have to hold my position. So, in most cases, we've got it set up so that, basically, the thing we can do is hold your position, hold on to what you think is true, and do that. That's our basic pattern, because we think, what would happen, what would life be like if I didn't hold on to it? But what I think a Buddhist has to learn how to do, what a Bodhisattva has to do,

[14:46]

is have a definite commitment to good without thinking that good has a sign. How can you be... You have to be completely committed to good, and also be completely flexible. If you're committed to good, and you're not flexible, you become harsh and aggressive yourself. Yeah? It's right in this area where the language kind of gets very slippery. It feels like we've got, we're talking about values, which is something that has some sort of consistent or continuous relationship with, but those are a little bit different than fixed views, and somehow opinions are roping around in there as well. And I'm wondering, and I'm introducing the language of no sign, which is kind of like, I have some sense of what that might mean, but the actual sort of psychodynamics of it,

[15:51]

how it would relate to that, or even understand it through language, is really kind of unclear to me. Well, back to the words opinion, values, and what else? Fixed views. What views? Views, opinions, and values. Yeah. Holding to any of them is what this is about. But earlier when you were talking, it seemed like, you said that values, in a situation, the country going to war, there were some people who held to certain values, or expressed certain values, and weren't sort of, what, spineless, or there might have been some flexibility, but there was also some sort of returning to them, or they didn't just switch over to another set of values, or there was pressure going on. So it's that kind of skill, or skepticness, is where I'd like to sort of understand something more.

[16:55]

Okay. So, if you have a value, it's fairly likely that, in a lot of cases, your values will never change. Like, for example, the value of not harming might never change at all for the rest of your life. Basically. What is it? Flexibility doesn't mean harming to not harming, back to harming to harming. That's not what flexibility means. It could mean that, but it doesn't mean that probably. Once you see that value of that, you might never change. The flexibility is what your response can be, how you can express it, how you can argue with people about the value, about your value. Flexibility is in conversation about your values. But if you have a fixed view, then your skill level at arguing about your views, arguing about your opinions,

[17:55]

arguing about your values, your flexibility in conversation goes, can go down to like, you know, minus 50. Not even, yes, no, yes, no. You know? Because you come out with such a charge that whatever your value is, if people don't care what your value is, they just don't like you. Because you got this charge and they feel this charge and that annoys them. So whatever, they say, tell me what your view is and I'll be against that. So the flexibility is not that you, that you throw away your truth, you hold your truth up. The flexibility is, I don't know how to realize this value. You know, like, Oh, maybe I can't do it on my own anyway. Exactly. That too. I went over to, I was having dinner with a friend and his wife and Rusa said to him, he works at Irvine and Rusa said to him, What's it like at Irvine? And he said, It's beautiful. His wife said, It's ugly.

[18:57]

And he said, It's ugly. Now that's a case where he seems to change, but he didn't really change his values. I mean, have you ever seen Irvine? It's not beautiful or ugly. It's just Irvine. They call it Irvine. It's a city in Southern California. But what was interesting there was his flexibility, not his spinelessness. And in certain ways, for example, I don't think I come on as a spineless person and I don't feel like a spineless person. So in situations like that, when I do that kind of thing, it is, what is it? It's disarming. It's disarming. So I say something like, I say things like that now sometimes and then Rusa contradicts me and I switch over to her right away in public and everyone always says, It's disarming. It's disarming. People put down their arms and say, Hey, he's not into winning this argument. He wants to talk, you know. So, do you enjoy talking?

[20:00]

Do I? I enjoy, once I get going. But for somebody who doesn't have the persona that you have, it isn't so disarming to switch around. Exactly. It doesn't mean all that. In some other cases, in some cases it's more charming to see somebody sort of say, I'm not going to change my opinion. That sometimes is quite disarming because you realize, Hey, this lady is not kidding around. I'm not going to use my arms anymore. This is a different kind of a talk here. She's not impressed by me, you know, being oppressive. This is not working. So, again, I think that the value of peace could be arrived at in a conversation. So if it's a conversation about war, could the conversation itself

[21:02]

be a peaceful one, one where the participants somehow come into harmony. Again, I think that just like we were saying the other night, it does not mean that people change their views even. But how can people who have different views about politics or something arrive at some kind of harmonious situation? How can enemies talk? And how can you try to see through enemies' eyes? I mean, if if you're holding your position, it makes it very difficult for you to even think of trying to see through your enemy's eyes or to see through a foreigner's eyes or see through a stranger's eyes. You cannot see through the enemy's eyes, but you can at least think about it and try. And that's an example of flexibility, but does not mean that you put down your truth. You might hold your truth up the whole time, moment after moment, bring up your truth and really believe it's good. And that's your role in life, because once you've seen something,

[22:03]

it's part of your mission to bring it into the world and take care of it. Lorraine? When I was thinking about your question, what I heard her say is, and maybe I was wrong, but this is what I heard, is when it is a life-threatening issue, how can you not have the charge? And if the problem is the charge, for me, it's like, my position is my life. So, how can I just diminish my charge? Well, for example, I'll give you an example. Okay. One example is in the area of, actually, in sports, or some kind of situation where your life is on the line, like boxing someone or something. If you have a charge in what you do, it diminishes your effectiveness to protect yourself. And you can, and you can say,

[23:05]

well, how could you not have a charge? Well, you can. You can be in a situation where someone's trying to hurt you, and you just don't have a charge on protecting yourself. And you learn not to have a charge because you've learned that when you do have a charge, you get tired sooner. Another example is, you can be standing in the street and you can just simply be effective and pull them out of the street and do it so fast, the charge never had a chance to build on it. It's a value. You act on it. It's all over before a charge even builds up. You don't think I'm right. You don't think I'm wrong. You don't think the kid's wrong. You just act very quickly and effectively. If you hesitated long enough to think that the kid was a bad kid for going in the street, that might have slowed you down enough that you let it all go. Uncommon, it is possible to deal with situations where you or someone you care about,

[24:06]

life is in threat, is in danger, and act to protect the life without building any charge on it. Just simply act on it. Like just say, I want Tassajar mud in the wall. That's it. And everybody says, Oh, that's what Lorraine wants. Thanks Lorraine, you got your vote. And that's it. And you can say that nice and strong with no charge on it. And you say, she really feels strongly about that, but there's no charge. There's strength, but not charge. There's commitment. There's intensity, but no charge. What's the charge they don't like? The charge of self-righteousness. All you're saying is, I Lorraine, one person has this view. And that's all it is. But you can also say, I Lorraine, speaking for, then people say, my God, this giant big thing here, you know. And is she entitled to represent this huge constituency

[25:07]

that's represented by this charge that now converts her from a person who has a view to being the right one in the room? So I think, although it's difficult, because we habitually have this kind of outflow, it's our habit. And if we have an excuse, we go towards our habit. If we get scared, we go towards our habit. It is possible to express your view without a charge in life-threatening situations. I've seen it. I've experienced it. And I've seen it when it's a life-threatening situation and the person has the charge and seems to be less effective. But you've got to get in there and you've got to start noticing your charge. You identify your charge in yourself and others. Watch how when others have charge, how ineffective they are. Watch how you're less effective when you have a charge. Do it in as many situations as you can. The more you notice it, the more you'll be convinced that what you should do is walk around not being charged. And you'll be a more effective person

[26:08]

and you'll be able to protect life better. Anyway, that's what this is... that's what we're being proposed to you. Barbara? There's a person also when we're talking about the value of non-harm and I feel like the angle on how to keep the charge down is that if you really do understand that non-harming has its time then in any situation you deal with what non-harming is in that situation. And the other thing I appreciate is how many times a really big deal will be said to me and my response will be OK. That's fine. And then if there's some time between that and the thing being accomplished I have a chance to go into the habit where I build up my whole view, value system, opinion

[27:10]

and get ragingly angry and full of a charge and all of that. But that... So sometimes... So it is possible often to have a point of view but the story we tell ourselves before or after non-harm can be the one that sets up the problem. Yeah, and... Anyway... I think Patty was next. I wanted to explain I'd like you to go more into what the various outcomes are because I think our time is limited and we have too many questions but I would like to go more into the question of self-identification and then you have to tell me what's... Once you do identify yourself in the state of being charged with something what then? So should I

[28:16]

answer these questions now and not take any more or should I go on with the text so to speak? In some respects I don't think the questions are answerable. It's not a question of answering questions it's really a matter of discussion and refinement of moral sensibilities and in that sense Patty is right this is a very long slow process and it might help everybody if they knew what the groundwork was for some of my inner workings and that is I have been at Zen Center for a long time well not so long but anyway 25 years and so I've been mostly in Zen Center and not been around in the society so much and for the last few years

[29:16]

I've been trying to go out a little bit to a consortium on ethics and particularly I've been going to meetings about business ethics and in conjunction with these meetings the work of Robert Bella and his associates has been part of the discussions there and he's made some presentations and he wrote a book called Habits of the Heart and I've ordered a copy of Good Society for the Library one of the things that it says in Habits of the Heart which is sort of in the background of some things that I'm saying to you is they say for example that so long as it is vital this is defining culture so long as it is vital the cultural tradition of a people is always an argument

[30:19]

about the meaning of the destiny its members share as long as a cultural tradition is vital it's always an argument about the meaning of the destiny of its members its members share and another way they say it is cultures presentations about things that matter to the people who are participating in the culture so again I think that so I look to Zen Center for Zen Center to be a vital culture there should be an argument going on here there should be a dramatic conversation going on here and to some extent part of our view

[31:23]

might be that there is a teacher who teaches a group of people there is an element of that of teaching some of the scriptures and some of the words and I think the tradition can help us but also in order for this to be vital there has to be a dramatic conversation going on around this material and in particular around moral philosophy ethics and precepts and in order for there to be a dramatic ongoing conversation not a conversation that happens and blows apart and then there is silence for weeks but an ongoing vital conversation there needs to be flexibility and we have to watch our charge this first kind of charge and the second kind of charge is called the outflow or leakage of emotion or views the character well yeah feelings

[32:25]

excuse me emotion or feelings the character here is often translated as feeling but also is translated as sentient used for sentient sometimes or animate like we talk about animate, inanimate beings this character is animate so feelings or emotions these kinds of outflow and Deng Xian says for this feeling outflow this feeling leakage is always turns towards and away and one's views become biased knowledge or knowledge or knowing always turns towards and against and one's view is biased and

[33:33]

now this one both relates to the previous one and also stands by itself when the story I told you those two stories about the mud on the wall and the football game people did things around me I had feelings and those feelings I had turned me and I got a biased view I got a view which then was already biased sort of leaning in one direction rather just having a view it's a view that's leaning already it's not just a view that's standing there like this is a view it's got a tilt on it it's like a view that you're leaning into you're putting yourself into it again it's already charged by this thing and you can tell the story again because the first way you told it was you were choosing between the two different views which then biased your feelings now it sounds like you're saying you had biased feelings which then changed your views well that's true

[34:36]

once I chose a side then my view changed and my feelings changed which then moved around into views again a different set of views yeah so these two I'm just saying these two affect each other that's what I'm saying but another way this stands by itself is that if someone compliments you you know that usually feels fairly good unless you're embarrassed or something or if someone's just very nice and kind to you and gentle with you expresses a kind of warm feeling toward you that usually makes you feel good if someone screams at you with a harsh voice that might make you and criticizes you that might be painful for you okay so to turn towards or away from these feelings is one way I would say talk about this outflow so

[35:38]

for someone to you know to do an act and and to be receive positive reinforcement for it and then to try to do that act again in order to get positive reinforcement to be doing it just to get that pleasing touch sort of goes in this direction although you know I don't want to say that you shouldn't do something to get positive reinforcement it's that but also to catch in your to catch in yourself the turning that not just you have a positive feeling but you're being turned by it it isn't just you're already being affected positively so that has a certain effect on you you feel warm or something that's already happening I don't think we're talking here about that not happening it's the then arranging your life

[36:41]

in relationship to that or turning away in relationship to it that's the outflow rather than just just sit there and say this is warm this is comfortable and then just drop it now you can then in the next moment say now I want to do more I want more of that you can do that too that's alright that's another move you're making but in the moment you know when you kind of then veer away from or have a vector away from these kinds of experiences rather than just taking a chance to let it be that's what I proposed to you just beginning to discuss with you what this might mean if you can see the difference between those two what are you veering away from? well something negative or veering or going towards something positive rather than leaving it alone some feeling and feelings are the ones we we most we do that with most because feelings are most closely associated

[37:42]

with our with our sense of self that's a nice song yeah let it be right it's a nice song let it be and one of the stories that turned me towards Zen was a story about Hakuin where he was accused of being the father of this kid or this young girl and the parents came and criticized him strongly and he said is that so? and then a couple years later after taking care of the kid for a couple years he the parents came and realizing that he was not the father praised him highly and thanked him for taking care of the baby and he said is that so? and I think he felt differently the two times and if he didn't feel differently the two times then the story is not as interesting to me it would be most interesting if he felt really different like most of us would and basically the same response

[38:44]

no outflows just this is really negative you know this is really positive that's it is that so? it's like this huh? okay what's next? so that's that's what I propose at least for starting discussion about what this is about what do you think about this? yes I've been sort of trying to watch this in myself the last few days and what I just see again and again is the sort of neutral situations and I'm constantly sort of putting myself up or putting myself down in relation to what doesn't have any particular emotional state on it and keeping this little sense of self going kind of by doing this all the time and I had a monumental example of it giving the talk the other night which I got just a little feedback

[39:45]

right afterwards and just decided that I completely blown it was so embarrassed humiliated didn't want to go to Zazen the next day the whole next day was in this stew about it and and to the point where I kind of you know saw what I was doing when I walked by a rock and thought you know that rock's just a neutral thing I am just a neutral thing here in the midst of this but I've done this whole trip with my mind around you know around this emotional thing so and then over a few days I started getting lots of feedback about this talk and you see you know that for some people it wasn't so terrible than I had thought so you know and I've been watching it and it's just like real examples of that going on all the time so for friends Yeah, the little ones are really helpful too

[40:46]

and I think that's good what you said about when things are like a Tazahar I think it's quite true sometimes especially when it's like I don't know what like it's raining or something a long time you get into kind of a neutral or at least stable kind of situation maybe it's maybe negative but it might be quite stable for a long time and you lose your sense of yourself unless you can jack it up and down a little bit and although it's unpleasant in a way to get moved around like that at least it kind of reactivates the sense that somebody's there which is kind of kind of a part of the deal I think Vicky was next I was going to I'd like to ask about that story about Hopkins Yeah so you're saying if he wasn't upset or if he wasn't if he didn't feel differently about it in the two cases the person who's criticizing him

[41:46]

or the person who's praising him then the story is less interesting to me yeah to me it's also less interesting because it would mean that he wasn't human that there was something supernatural about him or that he was a kind of a cold human something he had some quality which makes it enough unlike me that I can't get any emotional yadiyas from listening to the story right but on the path somehow I had the feeling that that we're not that we're that we're to train ourselves to not get upset or to not have these outbursts and I wonder at what level we train ourselves to not get these outbursts or to to not express these outbursts at what at what level because we can train ourselves socially or physically or neurologically

[42:47]

or uh-huh yeah well I guess you know the just the first thing that came to my mind was the main way we train ourselves is just by attention to these outbursts that's what Dungsan says too please learn to identify these I think if you just are just being aware in the middle being aware of this process I think produces this inspiring this inspiring path in these strange people like like Hakuin so I think mostly for for for at least for starters I think it's just be able to be aware of how these outflows happen and I think that takes care of them to some extent again another thing that popped in my head was this story about which I think some of you heard about

[43:48]

where they did a test on a Zen meditator and they rang a bell and then they had a way of testing brain responses or something like that and the experienced meditator when they rang the bell the first time they got this kind of response and when they rang the bell the next time they got that kind of response and they rang the bell another time they got that kind of response and they rang the bell again they got another kind of response whereas somebody who wasn't so experienced meditating or just a non-meditator they rang the bell once they got the same response they rang again they got another response they got another response that's one thing that came to my mind when you said that that if you don't have outflows around these things I think you just keep just having your whatever the response is so upset in a certain way this is kind of being upset in a way you get upset by by getting numb to certain things over and over again so so after a while again you get upset because you feel dead bells are ringing around you and you don't hear anything

[44:50]

because you need to have a new set of bells in order to have an experience so that's so upset I think these outflows are are what upset is because if you hit somebody real hard if their nerves are working there's going to be the nerves are going to say oh you know that hurts this is dangerous or whatever and if you cross your legs for many hours the knees give you all kinds of information you know so it's normal that you get responses from things I don't think that's necessarily upset in the bodhisattva path anyway I think the upset is are these outflows I was at kind of I was three of you I can't remember which one raised your hand first well I just wanted to ask we're not saying that expression strong expression of emotion is necessarily an outflow to be avoided no not necessarily

[45:52]

like if you see a child going in the street and you go you scream at them but really you don't dislike the child you don't want to hurt the child you hope the best for the child you just scream intensely without any charge that's not exactly anger but if you see a child going in the street and you really think you stupid little rat I'd like to kill you and then you try to pull him out well you know that doesn't that doesn't seem very helpful to me especially inside the mind of the person who thinks that way you know so strong expression of emotion can be without outflow can be quite helpful sometimes if inside the person there's no again there's no there aren't these leakages inside the person if there's no dualistic thought in the first place an expression of emotion can be helpful anything could be helpful anything could be beneficial if it's coming from a mind of bodhisattva

[46:59]

and it can be intense and look like emotion but have this real compassionate background and it's helpful it's not very common usually when people scream it doesn't have that kind of background but once in a while it does once in a while a person you know has a beneficent feeling and they even stop for a second and they check it out to make sure that it seems really beneficial and then they act and it has intensity and all that but not necessarily just anger also like something an expression of love or an expression of fear or I mean if my wife talked to me and said well gee I really don't think this is my child I mean but how do you know anger should just accept things with equanimity and fear and then you should say for example he could have said that that would have been fine he could have said gee it's not you know no way he could have done it that way but this story has

[48:01]

this before and after thing which is this and he got to take care of the kid for a couple of years so it's a nice story this way the other one might have been nice too but it might not got in the book so it's a good story got to think about that too think of the future people yes yes the way you're describing both of these my feeling is that not being turned by your feelings is actualizing the truth and holding up your truth and knowing that it has no marks is actualizing the truth well excuse me but holding up your truth and knowing it has no marks that's really good yeah but there's one other thing

[49:02]

holding up your truth without a charge and also to hold up your truth and know that your truth doesn't have any marks the activity of holding up your truth and knowing your truth doesn't have any marks that activity that you described that also doesn't have any marks I would say just I want to mention that but there's a difference between holding up the truth that you know doesn't have any marks and the path of marklessness there's two different things so the way you would hold up the way somebody who doesn't really think that what they believe in has inherent existence but still believes in it and still wants to champion it the way they would look when they did that that also you can't say what that would look like and that is shoakumakusa what you just said so essentially then you're freeing from all evil it's not leaking through so well it's not any of these leakages and is it more than

[50:07]

is it more than than not well I would almost say it's not more than that that in a way what we're talking about here by saying no leakage is is saying emphasizing the don't you know avoid leakage side of the story right but there's also positive good that you can do right so those people who are dedicated to positive contributions and beneficial action they should avoid evil right it's possible to to make a vow to save all sentient being and then get involved in evil right to have that aspiration and then just sort of get off into evil into leakage in a matter of fact that's the main problem of bodhisattvas they got the right vow but they have these leakages which are undermining this perfectly good intention so they and they're out there

[51:07]

actually trying to do good they're trying to practice concentration they're trying to practice giving they're trying to practice patience they're trying to practice enthusiasm they're trying to do these practices for the benefit of all being that's their trip that's fine but they keep getting undermined by these by these leakages by evil by attachment by thinking that you know this is what patience is this is what giving is this is what concentration is I know what it is that's evil that kind of self-righteousness and people who are dedicated to good are much more likely to become self-righteous than gangsters so the danger of people who are dedicated to help people they're very susceptible to becoming self-righteous so that these outflows are to protect those people people who are dedicated to bad we should encourage them to have as much outflows as possible because they'll be

[52:07]

less effective the problem is that they sometimes don't have outflows so much around what they're doing they're quite you know flexible and you know they have no fixed view about how to be cruel very creative new ideas every day you know to entertain themselves and keep themselves in the path of cruelty but people who are dedicated to good tend to get fixated and then their path of goodness becomes evil and also loses its vitality because the path of vitality of goodness is an argument with other beings is a conversation about you know what really matters Patty? do you still have a question? yeah I when we were talking about you when you were in charge often times

[53:08]

when you were there my idea that was that I had some something extra with it usually emotions yeah felt strongly in one way or another about my view so now when we're talking about the emotions as a leakage it's how to have how to identify a charge on emotion what emotion can look like to charge the enemy that doesn't I would I would you know give you some feedback on that first of all it when you have a view to have an emotion associated with it is not necessarily what we mean by a charge charge the charge again self-righteousness is not really an emotion you know it's not like anger or lust or confusion necessarily

[54:09]

it's more like a fixed certainty that your view is the right one and other ones are wrong and it's a feeling of isolation from other people without even without having a charge on your view you might have emotions associated with them the emotions are parallel though they're not necessarily what we mean by the outflow but the the emotion wouldn't necessarily be lined up with like a view about some aesthetic thing there might be some emotion there but what what how does the emotion connect with that how would how would lust connect with a view that someone is lovely how would that connect you want to be attracted to them maybe or something like that right you want to hold you want to you want to hold the object okay but that situation is basically just what we call lust in addition to

[55:11]

so that's that's the when you then you got the problem of lust what to do about that right we're talking about something different here we're talking about that the view that they're beautiful you think is true and you know that's different see the difference that's the charge I see it when you're talking about it with view okay well then emotion emotion don't necessarily have charges the thing about emotion is just that emotions already you're affected by the emotion that's the emotion is by definition that some kind of movement in your psyche some kind of directionality right that's enough but but all emotion is not necessarily a leakage it's no emotion this doesn't say motion is a leakage this says to be pushed around by the emotion is the leakage so the emotion itself is already a kind of vector but you don't have to let that vector push you around you can just let it be a vector you can say

[56:12]

I feel a repulsion or I feel an attraction I feel a clinging I feel a denial I feel a confusion that's enough but then to then now organize to let that disorient you to let those emotions disorient you is the outflow emotions do not necessarily disorient the psyche when they disorient the psyche that's this kind of outflow Jim yeah I was thinking about this talking about also what came up when Vicky asked her question you put that example on the board was this concept of conditioned response rather than freedom may have felt the same emotions we would feel when we were sane but he he didn't react defensively when he was accused he wasn't he didn't fall into a condition of response to the situation where he had some freedom to

[57:12]

perhaps act in a way that was helpful or express his truth so the same way with an emotion it seems like if we if we have a freedom to use an emotion express an emotion that's useful or feel it's useful whether it's a fall into habitual response to a situation what did he said do we have the freedom to express an emotion like you said yeah maybe I'll take that one back but still back to this idea of the the response that the non-practitioners had in the study you're talking about was a I think conditioned response to hear this sound over and over again and find the line tubes out where the practitioner's example was something fresh each moment some fresh response each moment

[58:14]

so that again in the example when he's accused he doesn't respond even though he might have felt like hey this is not my kid what are you talking to me I'm such a terrible person you know that could have been the response the person would have had defensive response but he didn't and also that and also that response that you just said could have been the response of someone who wasn't leaking it could have been yeah it would be hard it would be hard to tell from the story because it sounds like what most people would do if it wasn't habitual yeah if it wasn't habitual some freedom that any one of them could have been not leaking as I understand it but that element of choice or freedom is the part that I just want to bring up so where is the choice or the freedom um it's seeing isn't choice something that is conditioned yeah everything is conditioned

[59:18]

so you're saying you're saying the choice or the freedom is in the seeing it's seeing it's seeing the pattern the cycle sort of being able to stop the real yeah I think that's right I think that the choice the freedom is in the clearly observing and so it isn't necessarily even that your outflows will stop but just that you will be able to see your outflows all the time moment after moment outflow [...] and you're basically that's what's happening that you're seeing what's happening you're you're with what's happening that's your freedom your freedom is what's happening but most people do not notice their outflows and outflows are very bad things not to notice because outflows tell you man you you are disqualified from this conversation

[60:22]

and be quiet for a while calm down get back to yourself but even when you tell yourself that way you're already back in the conversation because you're seeing yourself for what you are somebody who's become a self-righteous person or whatever somebody who's getting hot around the I know it all area so if you don't see the outflow it would seem to me that you see the suffering seeing the suffering that would be the next clearest thing that you could see I think if when I don't see that I have an outflow at least I know that god I'm suffering here for some reason yeah that's right you're getting close when you see the suffering if you see the suffering you might say there's an outflow close by yeah you see the suffering then look for the outflow and there's three types so which type is it and when you start tuning into the outflows you're getting close to what's happening when you get close to what's happening you're getting close to freedom even though you may have quite a bit of outflowing to do because it's a very strongly established pattern and these adepts are people

[61:22]

who are really good at catching outflows they see them a lot like you know a lot and therefore they're confessing all day long to themselves of what they're catching themselves at and that's how they can do these fabulous things of you know staying close to all beings walk through birth and death because they're on top of what's happening or what's happening is on top of them both ways so they're really keeping up on the latest slip so let's see Regina In terms of the charge of the healing because you have a certain quality for the charge and using the word self-righteousness and I'm wondering if that's if those two words are becoming interchangeable now or if there are other qualities to a charge and depending on the kind of outflow does it have a different kind

[62:23]

of charge well self-righteousness means could be around moral things but you could just be it wouldn't necessarily be self-righteous to say well I just know I'm right but is that the charge is knowing that you're right is that the charge or are there other kinds of charge I'm just talking about being able to identify the fact that one is charged as a charge another way to put it is not so much knowing you're right but knowing that something knowing that something is true not that you're right but knowing that something is true I just know that's true another one would be I know that that exists that really is there that's another way that would be a charge too that you're completely sure that something's there that something or you're completely sure that something isn't there definitely taking the position that something existing or non-existing that's also a charge but you wouldn't necessarily say I'm right or I'm better than someone else but easy to slip into that

[63:23]

if somebody else differs in opinion with you so if you leave it I'll leave it to you to see if you can have a view which you hold as true and can there be not self-righteousness there I don't know I think so I think you could not get on a moralistic trip and still be like kind of scientifically sure not scientifically sure but sure that you're scientifically correct about something and not get self-righteous maybe for the moment you just it's more like a level of just plain being close to the value of any other opinion but again that sounds a little like self-righteousness doesn't it so maybe you're right maybe self-righteousness always comes into play here in this first one you don't have to have self-righteousness in the second one though with feelings as a matter of fact you can have very little of that so someone something can happen to you

[64:24]

that affects you positively in terms of your feelings and you can be really disoriented about that and feeling not feeling being totally no charge at all matter of fact you might feel like you're just like you're nothing and you're just getting pushed around by things and you're really disoriented by your feelings and self-righteousness might have very little play there you might say I'm really confused I don't know what's going on and you know this feeling is really I feel totally disoriented by this feeling Daniel using this word disorienting because I thought it was like a compass and how you know a compass there is some true north and get away from that so what you know in a situation where you're clearly observing say weakening

[65:26]

or out of balance how do you how do you have a direction or you know a true north without that becoming you know basically get stuck yeah so the true north is clearly observing that's true north so and if you if you're practicing clearly observing right off there'll be no disorientation in the first place but if you're if you're not practicing clearly observing an emotion happens you may get disoriented you turn disoriented by the emotion if you then start practicing clearly observing you recover in other words you catch the outflow

[66:26]

by clearly observing and you recover your equanimity and presence with the with the current mess of your life but an emotion emotion can happen there can be these emotional vectors in our consciousness and they can be seen for what they are and there's no plan or response to sort of like institutionalize or you know or eliminate this in the future therefore the being is not disturbed by the emotion the emotion just happens like you know flash of lightning in the dark it does have a it does have a phenomenal appearance but it's just seen for what it is and then it goes so the emotion happens either and either the emotion is expressed or the feeling is received either way and you just see for what see it for what it is and it's not a problem there's always some reference to the dial

[67:27]

or the needles moving around well the the emotion has a reference to a dial yeah well all the clearly observing there's always always reference always taking some standpoint you're always taking a standpoint but clearly observing is not always taking it's not taking a standpoint clearly observing is totally being with the standpoint you're taking so you can so when when you have a feeling that's your that's a standpoint this is positive this is negative it's an evaluation that's a standpoint in a sense to clearly observe means you just surrender yourself to that evaluation that's it the standpoint changes with each moment we all every moment we change our standpoint that happens anyway that's that's happening clearly observing is to be there with the latest standpoint that's appeared

[68:29]

and the latest evaluation evaluations you know like positive and negative neutral are different from views so the latest view the latest evaluation the latest emotion whatever we're aware of in our psyche as an object to be at peace with that and resign to this being happening to surrender to what's happening that's clearly observing and that then you're not disoriented but there's always a standpoint there's always a value every moment of consciousness has evaluation in it has emotions in it has views in it now in a given moment one of those types of things will be the object of consciousness but the other ones are still operating to clearly observe means you just see from through you see through whatever is the object the whole constellation of the situation an object can be views feelings or emotions but they're all going on whether you see them or not whether the object or not

[69:31]

to not clearly observe is outflow then views will be held to and throw you off feelings will be you know turned towards and away from you'll have emotional reactions to them always not always but in the case of leaking it'll make you biased and the next one we haven't gotten to maybe we maybe we won't get to it yes Charlie this practice is so difficult what I end up doing is first removing myself from the situation to see the outflow excuse me you first renew yourself in the situation remove you remove yourself from the situation when you see the outflow or I try to how do you remove yourself from the situation well if I see a view and putting it to the viewers I'll try not to like push it anymore withdraw not remove myself I think that's a practical thing to do and then

[70:33]

it seems like the next step is kind of to go back into the situation with the view but without the separation but it seems like that going back in is so scary kind of to do it's so difficult to do so I wonder if there's some way I usually find myself withdrawing and then saying it's too hard I'm not going to go back and do it right right well one thing you could do is say if you get a chance you have the floor say I'd like to come to this conversation but I want to I want to warn everybody beforehand that I'm I'm susceptible to I've got a view here and I might start holding it again and cause trouble but would you allow me into the conversation knowing that it might happen you know, tell other people about it they could help you watch it and maybe it makes it safer and you may say also and I may it may flare up again and I'll just kind of withdraw from the conversation again

[71:34]

so if I leave physically or emotionally from this conversation that's what's happening is I'm and some people say that I've seen them say it in conversations it works pretty well they tell you why they're withdrawing and you see that they they get upset you know or sometimes when I'm talking to people I think of one person she closes her eyes and I just that's a signal for me to stop talking another person just says can we be quiet for a while and there's various ways maybe you can just say you know, I'm I need some time to sort of get back to myself and find out what's going on with me because whatever's happening is sort of overwhelming me or I'm overwhelming you or whatever that's one thing you can do this is if you almost know it's going to you're going to have this this thing where you're going to bring up the theory if you know you're going to from past experience with something you read

[72:34]

from past experience uh-huh and it's why don't you just keep trying yeah if you know if you know you're going to then I would think uh you might find some friends who you know are warned beforehand and then bring it up and see if you do because since you know you're going to it would be very interesting if you didn't and if you did then you say see there it is folks and then they all can learn from this and say Charlie this is amazing amazing yes I guess on the emotional aspect of it I feel like Charlie is that there's a fine line between identifying your emotional leakage and not to fall into repression so that the idea is to just repress and not is not to act on emotion is to be aware is to observe your emotional state it's a fine line between what and repression you notice an emotion

[73:37]

and repression repression is uh it is turning away it's part of turning away so repression is a heavy duty heavy duty leakage so what's so that's what's a fine line between repression and what you see sometimes it looks to me you know the term loose indifference will seem to be very indifferent yes like in the story you can say that we're talking about vivid indifference you know is that so uh huh so sometimes that can look to you like is that is that repression of any emotional response or is it an awareness of your emotional state and just choosing not to act on it I would say choose the most interesting story for starters what's the most interesting story

[74:40]

you can choose for me the most interesting story is that he he was affected and he practiced equanimity with it in both cases he was affected that's a more interesting story to me you can make up another story where he wasn't affected and so on various scenarios you can make up and you can also get into what was the most interesting and beautiful way he handled what happened to him you can imagine what's the loveliest way to handle an emotion that's up to you this is when you feel when you have a feeling and somebody does something positive to you okay someone gives you a massage and it really you just you feel good you feel you feel the kindness of what they're doing and then you have that feeling that positive feeling what's the loveliest way to handle that that's what we're talking about the most lovely way to handle your positive feeling what is that what's the best way some people think

[75:47]

that's the most beautiful thing to do to clearly observe it to just appreciate it for what it is not to say well this is nice but is there going to be more of this or you know this is nice but where did you get this or you know whatever you know which is which is most lovely which which way of handling your emotions is closest to what you think is healthy and enlightened what they're proposing here is not to have any leakage it's not to get turned one way another by them just hey this is a positive feeling that's it that's good enough what's next so yes well when I sit here I find that when I want to understand what you're talking about or know or yeah I want to understand what you're talking about I

[76:47]

suffer and that's the third kind that's the third kind I just I would guess that's that's outflow around around words that's it yeah but when I drop wanting to understand what you're talking about and just listen if you want say not really want yeah it's barren and I mean it's it's just not that desire anymore that's outflow around words in the opposite direction yes sort of drives me into wanting to know what you're talking about and that outflow back the other way so you swing back and forth

[77:48]

between those two outflows around words and what you said the other night the true the true relationship to when to words is to love them to really love the words when you hear my words love them love each word and love doesn't mean that you want to get more out of it than you're getting right now and you want to understand in a better way than you understand now it also doesn't mean you say look I'm not going to get involved in that mess you know I'm not going to get involved and try to understand what he's talking about or what Buddhism is that's another kind of most turning away or misunderstanding what words are about rather than just through the process of loving the words you're hearing all the time finally understanding what they are but I'd like to stop now because for two reasons one is I don't want to open up this next outflow until the kitchy's here and also because I think it's apropos

[78:48]

for us to sit for a while before Dogen's birthday so next time we meet we'll do the next outflow which is outflow in relationship or leakage around words I'm sorry if you feel frustrated about this slowly but I appreciate your questions so let's keep up the conversation about what's happening beings are

[79:53]

numberless I vow to save them billions are inexhaustible I vow to rend them Dharma gates are boundless I vow to enter them Buddha's way is unsurpassable I vow to become it excuse me I want to say one more thing and that is I looked up culture in the dictionary and it said that a culture the first meaning of culture is to cultivate the land but the fifth meaning of culture in the dictionary I looked in was the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns arts so on institutions all and all the other products

[80:55]

of human activity characteristic of a community or population and that I would say that's a common definition of culture but the definition which I told you before the definition of vital culture to just transmit all this all these behavior patterns like to transmit the behavior patterns of just sitting of keying of bowing of monastic schedules of the practice of selflessness all these to transmit these behavior patterns around Buddhism that's part of it but for it to be vital there has to be an argument there has to be a conversation about what this stuff means for us

[81:41]

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