Well, tonight I have two stories which I'm going to talk about. One is about a teacher who picked out the student. And the other is about a student who left the teacher. So the first one is on page 9 at the bottom. You have to excuse my Chinese. I just kind of stumbled through Chinese and I sound like I know what I'm saying. But I just get along the best I can.

[01:03]

So my pronunciation isn't correct. Sometimes I think it's okay, but sometimes it's not okay. So you may have read this story or heard this story. I didn't read it. Did you hear this from there? Anyway, I'll read it to you and we'll just go on. First I'll read it, and then I'll go back over it and talk about it. She Zhang of Guizheng was a stern, cruel, and aloof old teacher who was respected by the monks, highly respected by the monks. A group of monks, including Zen Master Fa Yuan of Mount Fu in Shu province, and Zen Master Shi Huai of Mount Tianyi in Yirui province,

[02:15]

came to practice in his community. It was a cold and snowy day. When they met Master Xie Ziyang, he yelled and drove them away. Not only that, he poured water around the visiting monks hall so that everyone's clothes got wet. All the visiting monks fled except Fa Yuan and Zhi Huai. Fa Yuan and Zhi Huai arranged their robes and sat Tangario in a hall. Shizyon came in in an ascolding voice, said, if you two monks don't leave, I'll hit you. Vayuan approached the master and said, the two of us came hundreds of miles to study the Zen. How could a dipper full of water drive us away? Even if we get beaten to death, we won't leave. Shizyon laughed and said, we both need to study Zen. Go and hang out with your buddies. Later, he asked Fa Yuan to serve as Tenzo.

[03:19]

At that time, the assembly was suffering his aloof style and unappetizing food. This is an example of Tenzo. One day, Shouzian went out to the nearby village. And while he was away, Fa Yuan took the key to the storehouse without permission. and took some noodles and some oil and made a delicious breakfast for the community. Shazian returned early and, without saying anything, joined in the zendo meal. After breakfast was over, he sat outside the zendo and sent for the penzo. Shazian said, did you really take noodles and oil from the store and cook that meal for the community. Then Fa Yuan said, yes, I did. Please punish me. Shixian told him to estimate the price of the material and compensate the community by selling his robes and bowl.

[04:28]

He then gave him 30 blows and kicked him out of the monastery. Fa Yuan stayed at a nearby city at the temple shelter. It's not him, but that's where it was. And asked his Dharma brother to plead with the master to pardon him. But Shazian would not forgive him. Fa Yuan also pleaded, even if I'm not admitted to return, I'd like to request to be in line to enter the abbot's room. But Shazian did not approve it. One day, Shazian went to the city and saw Fa Yuan standing in front of a traveler's shelter. That's the, actually, the temple shelter. Shouzian said to him, this shelter belongs to the monastery. How long have you been living here? Have you paid your fees? He asked Fa Yuan to calculate his fees and asked him to pay. Fa Yuan was not disturbed. He carried his bowl in the city, collecting food, which he sold, and then made his payment to the monastery.

[05:35]

Shizian went to the city and saw Fa Yuan begging. He returned to the monastery and told the assembly that Fa Yuan had a true intention to study Zen and finally fought him back. People get very angry at this story. Very controversial story. I bet he didn't have a lot of people. A lot of what? I bet he didn't have a lot of disciples. No. Did he care? No. He only had good ones. That's all he wanted, was a good one. One and a half, he had. One and a half pieces. He had one hole in the bottom of another. So, I started again. Shenzian and Guizheng was a stern, cool, and aloof old teacher.

[06:44]

So there are teachers like this who are very demanding and very... They're not friendly. And they're very strict. No-nonsense kind of teacher. And this kind of teacher sometimes either has no disciples or very few, as you said. But a teacher like this is also very highly respected. He was very highly respected. Students probably were afraid of him, but they felt that he really had something to teach. And if they were willing to put themselves under his guidance, which is very difficult, that in order for them to do that, they really had to submit to him.

[07:47]

The kind of teacher that really expects a student to submit to them. It's very hard, you know, in this thing, in America, to have that kind of attitude with students. Because, you know, the teacher would beat them. If somebody beat you, you know, during a lawsuit, Right? Sometimes I think about the Kiyosaki, you know, if one day I bring a lawsuit against you, you know, if you hit him too hard, the Kiyosaki. But I remember Bishop Sumi, you know, there is a Soto Zen Bishop in Los Angeles, from Japan, and he takes care of the affairs of the Soto School in America, he's there for the Americans. But Bishop Sumi was the bishop when Suzuki Roshi was here.

[08:50]

And he would come up and sit Soshin with us once in a while. At least one day sit in. And every once in a while he'd come up and visit Suzuki Roshi and he'd give him a talk or something. And what was I going to say about it? Oh yeah, he said that when he was a boy, a lot of times the priests, the young sons of the priests, you know, and the kids around the temple would actually be like little monks, you know, and the teacher would come and give them 30 blows, just, you know, as a matter of course. And he said, and we put panning in their shoulders. And when he came up and hit us, he could tell that the padding was there. And then he'd take the padding out and give us 30 more blows.

[09:51]

You know, it was a really severe kind of training that they had. Very hard. So it's not unusual. And if you look in the When you start reading about the director in the back of the book, I don't know if you've done that, Doug says, we should be very kind and not beat the students. But if they're bad, I mean, if they're really, you know, if there's some reason to beat them, you shouldn't give them too many blows. And you should take them to the kitchen. I don't know why the kitchen. I tell you to give them, then give them the blows. But not, it shouldn't be a personal thing. No personal animosity or anything like that. It should be public and for some reason. It has to do with the sangha, not between the person giving the receipt and the person receiving it.

[10:56]

Nothing personal. Anyway. The priest shows the iron of wheezing, words like that. Stern, cool, and a woeful teacher. who was respected by the monks. I remember when Tatsugami Roshi came, I was shuso with Tatsugami Roshi when he first came in 1970. And he was the ino, as I said before, in Eheichi for 10 years. The one who smoked? Something like that. He said, somebody was telling us about him actually, said that, no, no, he was saying about the Eno before him, I think, some Eno before him, who was very strict and very severe. The monks, he made the monks cry. You know, he was so bad, he made the monks cry, you know.

[12:00]

But when he died, they all cried because they loved him so much. Well, it's like pounding something into shape, you know? It's like beating on something to make it, to make it, to give it shape. In a way, maybe you could call it tempering. you really love your children, and they keep going out in the street, and then you have to beat them, because you love them. Well... Have you ever had any? What, children? Do you know of?

[13:01]

No. Well, it doesn't work. When you beat children, you may end up beating other people, because you teach them how to beat. This is what happened to the world. Everybody beating everybody up and teaching everybody how to beat. When my son, you know, I just get so angry at him. You know, you do that with your children. You get so angry, you just want to beat him, you know. And finally, you know, I said, well, if you hit me, then I should be able to hit you. And I can't argue with that. He said, I'm bigger than you, you know. I'm bigger than you, so, I'm your dad, and I can't beat you, and you have to tell me because you're the kid. See, that's logical, but it doesn't work. Especially with a kid.

[14:02]

Why can't I beat you, if you beat me? I mean, that's right. So we can't do it. We have to find some other way of reconciling. Anyway, I don't believe that, I mean, what you said, I mean, there's something to what you say, It's too easy, personally. But I understand what you mean. And it's just a big temptation to do that. Really a great temptation to do that. I don't want to get sidetracked in beating our kids, but... So I'm not sure that I'm condoning beating the children. They didn't like it, you know. Some of them ran away. Suzuki, where she said all of his students at his teaching ran away except him. He was too stupid, he ran. I don't know. Yes? The difference, right?

[15:07]

Because I immediately thought, well, it's not alright to be children more than it's alright to be monks. And I thought, well, maybe that's kind of a consent thing. The monks are there because they want something. teachings for this person, whereas the children, it's like a different dynamic of power. No choice. No choice. Yeah, that's true. I think that's significant. So when did the beatings stop, or how did it get changed in the meaning of them? Is it still done in Japan? Or what is the equivalent of beating that is done in Japan? Well, the children go to school now instead of being in the temple. I'm going to have to knock on that chair. I'm going to have to knock you some. I think for this kind of work, they still get beat rather brutally.

[16:11]

They are all very serious. Yeah. Still happens. But what do we do in Zen center? We don't need to sit verbally, psychologically. We send people to the practice committee. Which is as bad? As bad. Oh yeah. Well actually, I think we're pretty good with each other, considering. Right, but I mean, I think beating someone up in psychological ways is as bad as beating someone physically. It's worse. Or even worse. Because at least we're on the body, you know. It's pretty full.

[17:12]

So, a group of monks, including Zen Master Fa Yuan of Mount Fu in Shu province, and Zen Master Ji Huai of Mount Tianyi in Yue Province. These two buddies, they seem to be friends, came to practice in his community. Sometimes in the literature they say Zen Master referring to the person when they were a boy. So I don't know whether they were Zen Masters at the time or later. But they were advanced students, I think. I don't think that his treatment, I don't think the teacher would have treated him that way if he didn't think that they were capable of, you know, following him. Unless he felt that he was advanced enough and capable enough to deal with his severe teaching. There's actually two points about that.

[18:16]

One is that Not only is the being of monks in this story a sort of consensual thing, it's an aspect of the teaching, but also the point that you brought up before us, it's not done out of anger. Well, in another version of this story, which I read, at the time that the teacher disciplines, finally, he says to him, someday you will be the leader of a community, and it's very important that you get your practice right now. You can't be like that. And therefore, I think that's an addition. I think that's a commentary on Catholicism. The text doesn't say that. Not this text, but it's not another translation of Dogon. It's another recitation of the story. So they came to his community.

[19:28]

It was a cold and snowy day. When they met Master Shenzong, he yelled and drove them away, or tried to drive them away. I don't think he drove them away, because they didn't go away. So he yelled and tried to drive them away. Not only that, he poured water around the visiting monks' hall, so that everyone's clothes got wet. It's implied that there were more people, more monks there sitting, driving. sitting in Tangario, waiting to get into the monastery. So all the visiting monks fled, except Fa Yuan and Ji Wai. Fa Yuan and Ji Wai arranged their robes and sat Tangario in a hall. So they just kind of shook out the water and shrugged their shoulders and rearranged their robes and sat down. So Xuanzang came in in a scolding voice, said, if you two monks don't leave, I'll hit you.

[20:32]

Baiyuan approached the master and said, the two of us came hundreds of miles to study your Zen. How could a dipper full of water drive us away? Well, they had to walk 200 miles. I don't know how many was 200, but hundreds of miles. The two of us came hundreds of miles. I don't know how many, but it was a long journey. And they weren't about to leave. So when they made up their mind to come, having heard of his reputation, they decided that no matter what he did, they were going to, you know, stick it out. So that's actually the crux of this whole story. They decided that they, their intention, they made up their intention. And when they came there, they were going to see through whatever, see it through no matter what happened. Even if we get beaten to death, we won't move. So, in a way, you could say that the teacher took these words to heart.

[21:40]

No matter what you do, you're not going to drive us away, even if you beat us to death. So the teacher, okay. Okay, I'll accept that. Shows you on the left, and says, You both need to step in. Go and hang up your bags." So later, he asked why he wanted to serve as tenzo. At that time, the assembly was suffering as a new style and unappetizing food. They were probably eating pickles a little bit of watery rice and a few vegetables. And the monks thought he was very undernourished and having a really hard time. And they probably couldn't talk to him.

[22:48]

They were probably in a low ebb. So one day Shazian went out to the nearby village And while he was away, Fa Yuan took the key to the storehouse without permission and put some noodles in some oil and made delicious dishes for the community. So this is his bodhisattva spirit, you know, saying how the monks were really suffering. And he wanted to do them a favor. You know, he really felt compassion for them. And while the old man's gone, do the monks a favor, you know. a really nice meal. But Shozyow returned early, and without saying anything, joined in his endo meal. He kind of sat down, and there he was, and everybody ate. He didn't say anything. And after breakfast was over, he sat outside his endo and sent for the tinsel.

[23:54]

Shenzhian said, did you really take noodles and oil from the storeroom and cook that meal for the community? So if you look at Shenzhian and what his motives are, besides being mean, he probably had some, you know, given the fact that he didn't have much, he must not have had much, because otherwise the monks wouldn't be so malnourished. And a teacher like this probably doesn't get much donation. He's up there in his temple, and a few monks are practicing with him, but nobody's giving him anything to eat, or much to eat. And what he has in the storeroom, he's probably counting on. So Tenzo goes in, and without asking permission, decides that he's going to take something. and give it to the monks.

[24:59]

And there's always a question. He is doing this for the monks, but is he doing this to gain the favor of the monks? If he's doing it to gain the favor of the monks, so that the monks will feel highly about him, and turn their attention away from the teacher to him, He's the good guy and the teacher's the bad guy. So that could cause some division in the sangha, actually. So it's an interesting question. If somebody that you trust, like this, goes on their own and goes around you to do something for your students, like this, It kind of put the teacher in a secondary position.

[26:03]

So we can see why the teacher got angry. I can see why the teacher got angry. Whether or not the punishment that he needed out justified his anger, that's another point. But there's reason for him to be angry. but he does seem to go to great lengths to justify that, in order to punish Nitenzo. So, the final one says, yes I did, please punish me. So, please punish me means I'm willing to accept responsibility for what I did. So, he did something wonderful, And he also did something bad, you know. So, he's willing to accept the consequences for whatever he did. And this is why Dogen loves this story so much. Because even though he did something bad, good, it had a bad result.

[27:13]

But he's willing to, in terms of willing to take whatever consequences is needed out, because it really takes responsibility for what he did. And so he's standing up for what he did, but without being proud of it. He's just saying, I did what I did, and I stand behind what I did, and whatever you want to do, I understand that I offended you, so please punish me. So it's a kind of noble action. Chevzion told him to estimate the price of the material, what he used to compensate the community by selling his robes and bowl. So that's pretty extreme. He then gave him 30 blows. In addition, he kicked him out of the monastery. So he's having an injury to insult, or something. Fariawad stayed in the city, down at the bottom of the monastery, at the temple shelter, and asked his Dharma brother to plead with him as to pardon him.

[28:20]

But he wouldn't do it. And Shouzang would not forgive him. Fangyuan also pleaded, even if I've not admitted to return, I'd like to request Dousang. No way. One day, Shouzang went to the city. And he saw Fangyuan standing in front of the traveler's shelter and said, well, this shelter belongs to the monastery. How long have you been living here? Boy, you're really putting it up for a ride, you know? I mean, Fa Yuan is just, okay, whatever you say, you know. You want to keep punishing me, okay. Whatever you say, okay. He carried his bowl, so he wasn't, Fa Yuan was not disturbed. He carried his bowl in the city collecting food, so he just did the next thing he was told to do. He's actually practicing with the teacher, you know. The teacher kicks him out, but But the connection is not broken. And this is the interesting thing about teacher and student.

[29:29]

The course of a teacher and student's relationship can take many, many different turns. But the connection is not broken. The other students left when he threw the water on them and told them to get out. But he said, the connection is not broken, even if you kill me. He was a good student. He was willing to go all the way with the teacher. And the teacher is testing him to the limit. He's really testing him to the limit. And there's a kind of trust that's going on. And trust in the sense that the teacher is actually getting rid of him. And taking the chance that he won't see him again, even though they have this connection. So it's for real. What he's doing is for real.

[30:33]

And if it doesn't work, then that's it. But it doesn't work. where she used to say, sometimes the teacher says to the student, get out. But it doesn't mean that you should leave. It doesn't mean that you should leave. Get out. Go away. Go away. That is the teacher's tough love, maybe. Or, I can't explain it. Maybe the way, you know, when couples fight, you know, they get very angry with each other. But there's always love. It's still going on underneath, you know.

[31:35]

And then there's something about the relationship that becomes stronger. Fa Yuan was not disturbed. He carried his bowl to the city collecting food, which he sold, and then made his payment to the monastery. Later, Shazian went to the city and saw Fa Yuan begging. And thought, well, this is enough. He returned to the monastery and told the assembly that Fa Yuan had a true intention to study again and finally called him back. So in a sense, both the teacher and the student playing out their role. The student had to do what he, Phi-1 had to do what he did, and Schlegel-1 had to do what he did. And they both recognized that both of them were playing out their role in the way that, it could have gone different ways, but there's something about the way it went that they both recognized that was a kind of inevitable thing.

[32:47]

given the situation. I think in our practice, everyone will, at some point or another, come up against, not this situation, but a tough situation where there's nothing you can do but just take what's coming, except the consequences of something, And there's no place to go with it. You just have to kind of do, just go along in a difficult situation and deal with it. Especially true of the older construction techs. The older what? When you start to get older, you find stuff you can't read. Yeah. Or injuries that weren't so severe. You're 20 years old. Yeah.

[33:49]

So there's nowhere to go. You can't escape the body. Yeah. So you have to find something to do. You think you're always going to be 20 years old. You know, sort of the way you were talking about it also reminds me of when I was talking to Dr. Mora about how I was afraid to go back to the Sakamara because I was thinking to myself, you know, you're a physician, you're, you know, something, somebody, you're a physician, besides being a bar. And I just, I just, you know, it's not like I was afraid literally, but there was a certain sort of, And he said that his teacher told him about when people criticized you, this is what he told him, listen, be careful, and don't mind.

[34:55]

And I think that the story, the way you explained it, you had that feeling to it. I mean, what are you defending? What's going on? Ultimately, what are you defending? Well, the thing is, I know that a teacher does, you know, test the student and keep pushing him further in order to bring out the deep, strong spirit that doesn't come out ordinarily. It's like, that's what Fashin is, right? You know, you see Fashin the first couple of times, you know, and he just tries you And you have to bring up something that you never knew you had. And the teacher will continue to put the student in a position to come up with something, force him to come up with something, until he finally gets down to the very bottom of his being.

[36:04]

It's difficult. That's the reason they beat the kids, not because they want to hurt them, but they want to drive them deeper, so that they have to get to the bottom of the resource. And in some ways, that's why men love war, love going to war, you know, because it's a challenging situation that drives you, you know, to the bottom of the resource. And it's the wrong way to go about it. There are other ways of doing that, you know. If all the warriors would just sit sashim, you know, they'd take care of that. If only people around them, you know, had the glory of that. Is that a rite of passage, you know? I mean, like, in a traditional society, people used to have a rite of passage, and the warrior would have to go out and kill the tiger, and be set free to the body of their daddy.

[37:07]

You know, the traditional things, and the women would have to be you know, make her hair short or whatever she had to do. And so, is she serving as a rite of passage in this way? Yes. Tangario was a rite of passage. Yeah. But, you know, a rite of passage, like you mentioned, happens on our streets every day. You know, there are societies, gangs, But you have to kill somebody in order to be part of the gang. And that's one reason why there are all these random shootings. You know, Mrs. So-and-so was standing on her porch and somebody came by and shot her. You don't read the newspapers down here very much. This happens every day. Every day. You know? So-and-so, a 14-year-old Johnny, was walking down the street and somebody drove by and shot him.

[38:08]

Why? to write a passage, to kill somebody. It's really the jungle. It's getting more and more the jungle. It seems that, you know, the lore of Fenlore your sincerity and so on and so forth. So I'm kind of wondering if that aspect or that spirit of the Zen tradition has a lot to do with it. Well, not in a real practice place. There are some places that are... There's not a lot of practice.

[39:09]

Well, let's say for example here, this being like, I wouldn't say the most exclusive Zen I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Well, I'm just thinking, I guess we all have, like, they come in their due time, the trials and tribulations, like you said, you know, there'll be a time when before you were even considered for some parity to really, I mean, like where it talks about ultimate concern, that was pretty much, you know, really like in your face, like, you know, a really serious bug.

[40:11]

No, I see, yeah. As opposed to like, I'm not sure you can come and sit, you know, or whatever. Well, I see. In the beginning, you know, no one ever welcomed you to the Zen Center. And the students, actually, the feeling was kind of aloof. You know, people kind of, well, nobody ever welcomed us, you know, to the Zen Center. You know, it's kind of cold, you know, the cool, the Zen Center's a cold Zen student, you know, who walks around, you know, a little bit. Doesn't talk to anybody, you know. And people have this, feeling about zen and zen zen. But part of that is, you know, you're expected to find your way in. Nobody invites you to find your way in. And that has always been part of the zen atmosphere. You know, the atmosphere of zen center. But, you know, in the last ten years or something, and so, we've been becoming more warm, you know, and more welcoming and so forth.

[41:23]

And a lot of people have turned away, you know, who have really benefited by practice. If only they'd been a little more welcoming. So the whole thing has changed now. The whole feeling has changed. People still feel that way. Even though it's changed, from the outside it's still loose. Even though we think we're warm and welcoming, you know, from the outside it's loose still. welcoming people. And so I've changed that. But still, people have to find their way in and make their own effort. You know, you serve them tea, but you don't keep inviting them and saying, gee, we sure wish you would continue and blah, blah, blah. You know, we're glad just to give you at least an inch. So there has to be, you know, but the

[42:26]

up to a point, you know, there's some openness and welcome, but then they have to start actually practicing. And then that divides the sheep from the goats, so to speak, when they actually confront the difficulty of the practice. Zen teachers were really outposts of teaching, and many of the people who arrived already were Buddhists and Buddhist priests, with ample opportunities to practice.

[43:31]

In the United States, there isn't that level of practice. Zen is the door to Buddhism, rather than being the outpost of practice. And also, in the periods of China, And in Japan, too, to some extent, there were lots of monasteries where people came for many reasons other than for practice. It was a socially acceptable thing to do. People, if they flunked out of school, would go there. If they got into trouble with their families, would go there. If the political winds blew the wrong way, they would go there. It was a kind of place to hide out. It wasn't really cool. So also, we don't exactly have that kind of function here. So we don't necessarily have to weed out people who are on the land. Right. And we don't have a family. Well, sometimes we do.

[44:32]

But we don't have family, in practice. In other words, very few people's parents are Buddhists, you know, in their family traditions. So everybody's here voluntarily. But I must say, Suzuki Yoshi gave me a hard time a lot. The reason I love this story so much is because I can identify with it. I have to tell you, I can really identify with it. It's like, in some way, this didn't happen to me. And a lot of the things happened to me after Suzuki Yoshi died.

[45:36]

And sometimes he was very, you know, granting to me, and sometimes he was very grasping. You know? And very grasping, you know, like taking everything away. Like the, you know, and then the granting, you know? And kind of back and forth, grasping and granting. kind of shaping the student. So I do identify with this. And I think that, to me, the main point, there are several main points, but the main point is that no matter what happened, the student didn't lose his And no matter what situation he was in, he knew how to practice.

[46:43]

And the way he knew how to practice was giving up his self. And so more and more he had to give up more ego. Every time he was driven further away, he had to give up more and more ego. So no matter what the teacher did. And the teacher is not your analyst. What kind of relationship do we have with a Zen teacher and what do we expect? And I remember early on hearing a number of conversations where people were saying, well, I'm really getting along with my teacher or I'm when they're being affirming, when they're affirming you and you seem to have a nice rapport and you're agreeing about everything, is that when you're getting along or...?

[48:03]

I never felt that I wasn't... I've never felt that I wasn't getting along with my teacher, no matter what happened. I always thought that whatever happened, I was getting along with my teacher. You know, whatever... That's what I was questioning, I thought you were... Yeah, I mean, it's that whatever's happening, It's how you're practicing with your teacher. You're practicing where you think that you're buddies. And then you're practicing where you're completely alienated. And that's getting along with your teacher. Either way, it's getting along with your teacher. Thick and thin. Thick and thin, yeah. No matter what. Getting along means that something no matter what's happening. It doesn't matter what's happening. And when people feel that I'm not getting along with my teaching, that's just lack of understanding.

[49:14]

It's not like, you know, being with your friend. Your friend may be your friend today and may not be your friend tomorrow. But your teacher is always your teacher. As long as you are willing to practice with your teacher, your teacher is always willing to practice with you. Your teacher is always there. Your teacher is always there for the rest of your life. As long as you are here. Your teacher will never turn away from you. Even though the teacher turns away from you, your teacher is still there. When I hear you say that, it sounds very reasonable and very much within this tiny little bit of understanding that I have in this practice, but then it just comes up from the back of my mind.

[50:27]

Are there no boundaries? Are there boundaries? What do you mean boundaries? What kind of boundaries? I just can't distinguish appropriate agreements. What don't you understand? Give me an example of something like that. I guess it's the... When you're reading this story about how he said, please send him away, and he makes the agreement with the commitment, how do you really know that that's the person bearing the spirit of the student? I mean, of yourself as the student, oneself as the student. When you're turning away What now? Being thrown out.

[51:28]

No. I mean, in our society, in this day and time, and you're thrown out, however that looks today. Oh yeah, but this is different. This is like, this is a relationship that they knew they had with the teacher. Who knew he had this relationship with the teacher? How do you know? They knew it. I always knew the relationship I had with my teacher. It doesn't mean you know. It's not like, do I have it? If that's the question, you don't have it. You're my teacher. These guys were practicing geeks. A teacher accepted them, and made a Nintenzo. I mean, in order to be that far, there has to be a relationship. I mean, just the fact that he wouldn't let anybody practice with him that wasn't sincere.

[52:35]

So, like, they both knew their sincerity, you know? Sincerity was what they were both at, what connected them. That's the very point that connected them. Right, and I understand that in the story. I'm asking you to convert that into I don't think it has anything to do with today, or place, or anything. It's just two people, you know? Like, you may wander around the world, and one day meet somebody that you have that affinity with, or that sincerity with. It's rare, but it can be rare. It's not, you know, it has nothing to do with country, place, or time. It's just, you know, when you have that affinity, And you look for someone, you have that sincerity, and you look for someone to have that affinity with, who also has that sincerity. If you look hard enough, you'll find that person.

[53:36]

And that's what these people truly did. So that when the teacher kept pushing him further, he trusted the teacher. Completely trusted the teacher. No matter what the teacher did, he completely trusted him. Well, a teacher could really be a bad guy, you know. That can happen. Right. It can happen. And it has happened. Unfortunately. So, you have to be the judge, you know. There's no guarantee. You have to be the judge who you feel that you submit to as a teacher. And you have to trust that person. Like, when I met Suzuki Roshi, you know, I trusted him. When I met other people, I didn't trust them. And I can tell a person that I can trust, and I can tell a person that I don't trust, right away.

[54:37]

Maybe it's just my experience in life or something. But, uh, I know I can trust this person. I can trust that one. Even though that one may be... So a lot of people are going to say, trust me, you know. And the person who says that, I won't trust. The person who's not trying to collect students, you know, we can trust. This guy was not trying to collect students. He was not saying, oh, come to me, you know, I can be your teacher, you know, and we'll all have a good time. He said, get the hell out of here. So, you know, no seduction there, unless it was psychological, reverse psychology. I don't think so. Just on that note, I just can't help being impressed. For a long time I was very impressed by the student.

[55:39]

The student is a great example, a great example of sincerity and perseverance and commitment to practice. You're really amazing. It's obvious that this is the kind of student to die for. Every teacher wants this student to risk, to risk that much to go that far. A student and a teacher are on the same level. They really, they match each other. I mean, they do. And Uchiyama Roshi says, I think that the teacher really went too far. Personally, I think he really went too far. And maybe he did. You can argue that he went too far. But there's something about pushing this thing that far. It's too far, and yet it's just at the edge.

[56:44]

I think it's just at the edge. He didn't pursue it any further. He just went all the way to the end, all the way to the edge. The circumstances were different. But Milarepa, Martha had Milarepa, who had him build these big edifices out of stone and all this. And he had to take them all in. And he built another one and had to take it all in. But that's even more than this. And Martha herself had a huge load of the same kind of people. So these are examples of really testing a student and bringing out the qualities of a student.

[57:57]

Hard practice is what's called hard practice. Did you ever test any of your students as well? No, you know, I'm kind of mild. You know, life tests them. I don't have to test them. Sometimes I frustrate them a lot. And we don't know if the key is to give up wanting to make a habit.

[59:10]

Isn't that also the way that just being in an intense community like this is also kind of a teacher in that way? That it's something that always happens. My feeling is that the role of the teacher is to let Let the community be the poem, you know? If there's enough, you know, around it right here that happens in your day-to-day life, I don't have to do anything with you. I just kind of point it out to you. You know? This is what's happening. This is what you're calling. I don't have to give you a poem. You already have a poem. All I have to do is say, You see what it is. Otherwise, I'd be sitting around there taking a call. It sounds very obvious. There does seem to be a dynamic of the teacher understanding the student.

[60:20]

in what Aiken Roshi puts, Suzuki Roshi said he didn't know what he was doing. I'm not sure what context you're talking about. He didn't really say. Suzuki Roshi said he didn't know what he was doing. I can see that. If we all didn't know what we were doing, it might be easier to know what we were doing in D.R.I. That's true, we didn't know what we were doing. We were just doing it. Do you want to keep doing the definitions? Or do you want to do them tomorrow, or tomorrow, or what? Oh, I'm sort of sleeping tonight. Fifteen minutes. I mean, if there are questions. Okay, I have another little story here, but maybe that would take too long in many places.

[61:35]

That would only give me five minutes. That's not long enough. So, why don't we have the definitions?

[61:47]

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