Before getting to the main subject of my talk, I want to Just to say that this, right now we've been having a little bit of cool weather, which is very good weather for Zen students. Very good weather to sit Zazen, to have, to sit when it's kind of cold. It's not really cold. You know, if you go to Minnesota or Texas or someplace, it's cold. But we're fortunate enough to be able to have a little bit of cold without having to compensate by turning on the heat. Just right, actually, for us. It's like certain kinds of fruit or plants which need to have some cold before they taste good.

[01:27]

They need to have some cold weather. Sit out there in the cold weather. And some students are insane. We're not like oranges. We're more like apples or persimmons. So I just want to recommend this time of year to you or sitting zazen. Very good for us. What I want to talk about is our service, what we call service, chanting the sutras and the dharamis. actually offering ourselves to each other.

[02:34]

Offering ourselves to Buddha is what we're doing. We're making ourselves an offering. It's called devotional practice to make yourself into an offering. When we light incense, We offer incense. You see, we're offering incense. That's an expression or an extension of ourself. We offer it to Buddha, Dharma, Sangha. And we invite Prajnaparamita. We invite Buddha, actually, to join our practice. we offer incense for each chant that we do. So we offer incense to Prajnaparamita, which is perfection of wisdom, so-called perfection of wisdom, to come forth in our practice.

[03:50]

We offer incense to Buddha, to come forth in our practice, or prajnaparamita, to come forth in our practice, the various forms of Buddha. And when we chant, the meaning of the sutra is in the way we chant it. So sometimes it's understandable that Americans will want to understand the sutra in their own language. But chanting the sutra and studying the sutra are a little different. If you study the sutra, that's formal practice. If you chant the sutra without knowing, without

[04:57]

even knowing what the words mean exactly, that's more like practice, more real practice. Because the sutra is always pointing to you. The meaning of the sutra is always pointing to you. It's like a finger pointing to you. And you can study the words, and we should study the words. form and emptiness. Who's Avalokiteshvara? What are the Four Noble Truths? What does neither born nor dying mean? We should know this, study that. But at the same time, when we chant the Sutra, we should be the Sutra. That's more like practice. That's more direct understanding.

[06:02]

So if we want to understand the Sutra directly, we just chant it wholeheartedly. The Sutra is pointing to wholeheartedness, to doing something wholeheartedly, to being one with something completely. So it's like It's like looking all over for something that's in your hand. So it's understandable that we want to know the meaning of what we're chanting, the Sutra and so forth. But in order to really study the Sutra in a non-formal way, just chant it. Zen study, Zen practice, strictly speaking, is not intellectual practice.

[07:30]

But that doesn't mean that we don't study it. But the point is to see directly, to be able to touch it directly, or be So without even knowing so much the meaning, literally, just to harmonize with everyone and to completely give yourself over to the chant, and to drop your body and mind in the chant, means that you're actually turning the chant. It looks like when we chant the Sutra, we have someone who announces the Sutra called the Kokyo.

[08:37]

And the Kokyo introduces the Sutra and leads the Sutra chanting. And the Doan hits the bells And the Fukudo, it's the wooden fish, the Mokugyo, and keeps time. And those three are like the orchestra. Three-person orchestra. And everyone sits facing each other, and we all chant sutras. When we chant, we should listen to everyone. Listen to the Gokyo, listen to the Doan, listen to the Fukudo, and listen to each other.

[09:39]

It's like this is our world. When we chant the Sutra, each one of us is completely involved in this world of the Sutra. It's our whole world. the world of chanting the sutra. Sometimes you feel, well, they'll do it and I'll just mumble in order to get through it. I don't like to chant, or I don't believe in it, or this is not what we do in America, or something, for some reason. But this world a kind of microcosm of big world, the big world, the big universe. And it's an example of how we participate in the universe.

[10:46]

And how we participate in service, in chanting, is a way of understanding how we participate with the universe. And it's not just a model, but it's actual participation. So if it looks like they're doing it and I'm participating, that's dualistic understanding. At the same time that they're doing it, I am they. You have to include yourself as them. There is no them. There's only us. So, to completely forget yourself, and to listen to everyone, your best way, you know, is to see if you can hear everyone when you're chanting.

[12:13]

To just open your ears, so you hear everyone. And then your voice participates. And you also hear your voice. But you should be able to hear your voice as one of the voices that you hear, as well as feeling your own individuality. You should be able to hear how your voice is part of everyone else's voice, as well as, this is my voice. to be able to hear it in its totality. And the Fukudo has to be able to listen to hear everyone's voice, as well as their own voice, as well as the beat.

[13:16]

then there's no one leading and no one following. If you can really do that, there's no one leading and no one following. Everyone is following and everyone is leading. It's completely, totally democratic. If you can do that, then you feel that no matter what part you're playing, you're doing the whole thing. It's like in an orchestra. If you're completely involved, even though you play a small part, if you play that part completely, then it's as if you're leading the whole orchestra, as well as following. So following and leading is the koan here. How do you follow and lead at the same time?

[14:25]

It's the koan that we're always dealing with. And it's, in many ways, it's our number one koan. How do you follow and lead at the same time? Without disappearing and without standing out. And when You're participating completely. If everybody is participating completely, then you don't have the feeling that it's too fast, or too slow, or you're struggling in some way. But it's like a river. You just carry it along. And you enjoy yourself thoroughly. Everybody enjoys thoroughly what they're doing because everyone's totally alive. But each one of us has some little ego problem.

[15:34]

Not too shy or too bold or something. So it's a big challenge to be able to participate fully on some given moment. But it's the same way that we participate in the universe, with the universe, as the universe. He said, there's the universe, and then there's me, the little me. But we have some responsibility to the universe. The universe moves us, and we move the universe. Our responsibility is to the universe, to move it.

[16:44]

You don't know, it may not make any difference. It doesn't make any difference whether I move, do anything or not. The universe moves without me. We think that way. But actually, we move the universe. If you don't feel that, then you're not participating. Outside, a ghost. That's what we call a ghost in Buddhism. Someone who is outside. So when we chant, chant with vigor and strong voice and listen to everyone. If you can't hear everyone, it's because maybe you're too loud, too strong. And if you can't hear yourself, too weak.

[17:48]

When the Mukugyo, looks like the Mukugyo is the leader, you know, sets the beat. Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. If that person is keeping the beat, doesn't listen, then at some point they're all out there by themselves. You know. And everybody's trying to, looking at each other and trying to find out what to do next. And it's hard to come back once you've lost it. It's like once you've lost it, it's really hard to come back. So you have to be very careful. So we ask the Fukuda, who keeps the beat, to start out in this way. In the Heart Sutra, there are seven syllables to the name Avalokiteshvara. Avalokiteshvara. Seven syllables. The first three or four syllables go very slowly, just to bring everyone together.

[19:01]

And we can all participate. You draw everyone together. And then, at the fourth syllable, you start to set the tempo. And you listen to everyone. And everyone listens to you. We're all listening to each other. And you feel the pace. And it kind of... then it steadies, and just goes. And it's like a wonderful ride. But it only works if everyone is really paying attention to everyone else. And you don't have to worry if you're going too fast or too slow. Because if you really listen, it'll be just right. Every time. If everyone really listens, then everyone really participates.

[20:06]

So it's something that we share together. And when it works well, you feel that you've really done something wonderful. But if you leave yourself out, nothing will happen. So it's a kind of musical experience. Not exactly like music, but we call it chanting. Japanese, our Japanese form is monosyllable. Koreans have more of a song, I think.

[21:09]

It's very nice. of the monosyllable. It's probably easier to sing a song. I think it's easier to sing a song because there's something about the melody that keeps you going. Whereas monosyllable, you have to be very strong. It picks up So we start, dom, [...] dom. And it's like putting your head down, dom, dom, dom, kind of like that. And it kind of reinforces feeling of zazen. Zazen, if you sit well, zazen will pick up intensity. If you sit very strong, zazen will pick up intensity.

[22:16]

and that intensity goes into the chant. So the chanting is actually an extension of your strength in zazen, the strong feeling in zazen. It should reflect that strong feeling in zazen. It may be that someday will develop more of a song-like character to the chanting. But as it is, we have a minor syllable. So we should find out what that is. And then the kokyo, the one who announces the sutra, invokes the sutra, should have some intensity in the voice, some strength in the voice, so that it inspires us to follow.

[23:39]

So that person's position is rather important, Because that's kind of the inspiration. And in order to do that, you have to have some freedom. You have to feel pretty free. And if you start using your voice, doing this, and you haven't done it before, used your voice before, or are shy, then it may take you a while to have some freedom of your voice. Japanese people, somehow they all learn how to sing when they're really young. And they all use their voice at the drop of a hat. If you ever go to a Japanese party or go to Japan, you'll find that people, everybody loves to sing. And they'll all stand up, anyone will stand up in front of a big crowd and just sing a song. And they have these bars.

[24:43]

And they have a microphone and music minus one records tape. And so they'll put on a tape, and then somebody will stand up, and the orchestra will play. And they'll take out the microphone and sing with the orchestra. And they all have good voices. They all sound very professional. Housewives, office workers, they all sound very professional. Because they're just very free about it. They don't have any inhibition at all. And so it's enjoyable. And you know, it's kind of a vibe, you know, to get up there and do it. Because we're very shy and hold back, don't like anybody to hear our voice. So we have to develop some, I think it's good for us to develop, get over our shyness. let our voice, be free with our voice, and enjoy listening to our own voice, and enjoy having our voice accepted by everyone.

[26:07]

It kind of reveals something about us, you know, to stand up in front here and say, It's very revealing, but everyone enjoys it. Even if you're feeble and can't do it very well, we all encourage you to do it. So actually, in the past, we've been more careful about who does it. But I think we should open it up more. Teach everybody how to lead the Sutra. and they're making people feel more free about chanting. So service should have a real strong, vigorous feeling. And then we all leave invigorated. Go out into the world feeling invigorated, and you've left your mind in the window.

[27:14]

Go out with a fresh mind. new mind. Do you have any questions? From what I understood you saying at the beginning, that the reason for, well, the difference between Chanting in Japanese versus Chanting in English is that in Japanese it's somehow more practice, more like practice, than chanting in English. I have some difficulty with understanding why that's so. And I wish you could explain it a little more, because I personally like to know the words when I'm chanting. Not that I understand them every time I chant them, but I think they're beautiful words, and they're helpful to me in my practice when I understand them.

[28:16]

Yeah. It sounds like I'm saying that you shouldn't know the words. But I'm not saying that. I'm not saying you shouldn't know the words. I'm saying that whether you know the words or not, whether or not you understand the words to your satisfaction, just to be able to chant, to participate. If you really want to learn the meaning of the sutra, to go through the words rather than along with them. It's alright, you know. Even when we chanted in Japanese only, we always had the English translation underneath. No, I said when we used to. When I first started to practice at Zen Center, we only chanted the Heart Sutra in Japanese. And our service was chanting Sutra in Japanese three times.

[29:20]

And we had Chinese characters on one line and the English translation underneath. So we could see the translation as we were chanting. But the point is not to avoid understanding it. That's not the point. The point is, before you understand the words, to be able to chant the sutra, or even before or after, the point is that how you do it is how you understand it. The words have meaning, of course, but the basic meaning is in how you do it. form is emptiness, emptiness is form. How do you show that when you chant the sutra?

[30:24]

You can try and figure it out, but it's right there in the chanting, in how you do something. So that's what I mean when I say you're trying to figure it out, but it's right here, under your feet. Where are the words coming from? Words are coming out of the mouth. These words, you know, never appeared before. Where are they coming from? And where'd they go? How are the words coming?

[31:35]

That's what troubles me when I hear should, [...] but be free. Who's to say should? What is the should? We have to be free to be too soft, too loud, too fast, too slow. That's what we are. That is our chanting. Who's to say should? Within should. We're too fast, too slow, too loud, too soft. We allow too fast, too slow, too soft.

[32:37]

And at the same time, we have, it should be this way. Both go on at the same time. Both things happen at the same time. There's two. Two sides of the same coin. There's should is, we go in some direction. And the other side of the coin is, this is the way things actually are. And if you only have one or the other, if you only have the ideal, then you can't allow for anything less than the ideal. If you don't have something to go toward, then whatever you do doesn't have any form. No way you can produce something. You don't have should. There's no way you can produce something. And if you don't have, this is the way it is, you're not, you can't accept the reality.

[33:43]

So both is necessary. But if we only say should, then we fall into, too much into the ideal side. And if we only say, well, whatever it is is okay, then we fall into the amorphous side. So should is okay. But we have to be careful about it. We have to give some form to our India.

[34:44]

So I'm not asking us to be perfect. I'm just asking us to participate. I think that Diane's question and the way she said it was very striking. was a good example in a sense of what you were saying about chanting, that the way she asked her question was really turning, somehow, the room's turn. I thought of it, somehow, an idea of baking came to mind.

[36:13]

You bake a loaf of bread, and you follow someone who knows how to do it properly. Let's say you have so much flour, so much yeast, and so much water. If you put in too much yeast or not enough water, it doesn't turn out well. the experience of those who have gone before and who have a lot of work to do. And I think that actually has to do with the idea of good state, which is that although we don't actually understand completely what's going on, we've seen how it's been happening, what's going on in our lives, I just want to say something.

[37:35]

Should is maybe too heavy a word to use. It's kind of a tight word. It doesn't leave so much room. So I have to be careful how I use the word should so that I can say how I'm proud of you. There's a difference between hearing too loud or not hearing enough when everyone is not together. We can hear that. But there's a difference between saying should or chant with your ears. And maybe that's what we should try and do more. I don't think we do follow the teachings of our foreparents, but our practice is only ourselves, and it has to be what there is at that moment, and we have to encourage that.

[38:53]

We're all too easy to follow whatever should be. Should be like not to be. Yeah, but our practice, you know, you say it's ourselves, just ourselves, it's true. But ourselves includes what came before. That includes, that's included in ourselves as well. There are many things that we can say are ourself. There are many things which are ourself. Our own practice. Kate? Yeah, I just want to say, actually,

[40:00]

I'm really delighted with Eric's analogy. I think baking bread is a really great thing to do. I think there are shoulds. I think that when you learn to bake bread, if you want to make really good bread, then you have to follow a recipe or follow another person. And it is a matter of should. Not even should, but you have to put in so much flour, so much water, so much yeast in order to get a good, healthy bread. For a while, for the first few times you bake bread, you may have to be very careful about that. And once you have a feeling of making bread, then you can throw the recipe away. And you know, you have an instinct for how much flour, and how much water, and how much yeast. But then you can also throw a handful of raisins in, or use corn flour instead of wheat flour, or whatever. And then you can be free within the shoulds.

[41:03]

Within the form, you can still be creative. And you might even want to find out about why you need so much yeast. You might even want to understand it. I think you can understand it in the same way that you can study the sutras. track and have some understanding of what, or at least understand what the words are in English, know what they mean in English. You can get translations and look at them and know them so that you know what you're chanting, even if you're chanting in Japanese. And that's sort of like knowing why the yeast makes the bread nice, or something. I mean, I may be being a little too carefree with that analogy, but... But I really think that there is a form that you should follow, that you should know how to make bread in such a way that it will be good bread. And once you become one with chanting, by being careful, by paying attention, then you can be free within that.

[42:12]

And it isn't a question of too loud or too soft, but your own style is there. even if it isn't very loud, or even if it isn't quite soft enough by someone else's standards, still it's you and it's expressive and it's got spirit in it. So I don't think Shuddha is too strong a word. I think it's possible to be free and have Shuddha's. Yeah, so you can find your place.

[43:21]

There's this should that is a complete way of doing something when you're used chanting and you're merged with it and with everybody. And then there's a should that has this judgmental mind And from the way that you, Diane, were expressing yourself, it seemed like it was more that exterior should that you were responding to, and that you seemed a little bit fed up with. And it's more the first time that I was talking about it, I think, that you were really pointing to it, that now it's consensual. The chanting this morning was rough in the usual way, but it was beautiful. It was really fresh and nice to sit in it.

[44:27]

I enjoyed it very much. The bread didn't rise very much. But it was delicious. I think that the toilet with this exterior, surely it's actually inside. We internalize it. So we think, or I think, as I chant. I appreciate what you said about should and the way things are in just two sides of the same coin.

[45:49]

Can you say a little more about that? Well, there's a kind of perfection which is ideal. And that's on the side of should. And that's the kind of, if everything was perfect, you know, it would be like that. But actually that's not what we're aiming at. We're not aiming at that kind of technical perfection. The other side is just trying, making some effort, you know, is whether it's perfect or not. is not so much the point. The point is that everybody's making an effort to make, to do it, to do something.

[46:52]

And like Bill said, even though today, even though technically it was, there was nothing, but spirit was there. And so it felt really good. It felt very fresh and very real and very alive. And So the combination of raw spirit and refinement is what we're always working with. And the form is a way of refining the raw material. But if the raw material isn't there, the raw material is the most important thing. But if it's not there, then the refining Or it just gets in the way. Or it just feels, this is too much. The most important thing is the spirit that's behind it.

[48:09]

If there's not enough ideal, or not enough refinement, then everybody gets very tired. So, why are we doing this? What's this? I don't feel refreshed, I feel tired. So there has to be that balance. The raw material has to have some vehicle some way of refining, being refined, so that so that things can actually work together. Yes, maybe we shouldn't go away feeling like You've done something bad that actually didn't look right.

[49:16]

You didn't balance enough compassion and discipline. And one without the other doesn't work. But it seems that compassion is deeper than discipline. Discipline and compassion working together, keeping that in balance. Sometimes it goes one way or the other, you know. Sometimes I get, looks like I'm too hung up on discipline. I'm not, but it looks like it. Actually, I'm probably very soft. I'm actually very soft. But I go both ways. But if I don't say anything, then maybe it'll be okay.

[50:49]

But I feel that I have to say something. I should. I wanted to say something. So every once in a while I say something about it. Because I want to say something. Well, since we don't... If we were in a position, if we were in a monastery, and we all lived here, and we all practiced together every day, then there would be time every day for someone to teach how to do this. But we're not like that, and we have to go take it on the run. And so, nobody else in the world probably taps that foot, you know, doing services at me.

[51:54]

But we don't have the time to spend. I just do it as it happens. And it's not so good that way, actually. It's better to wait until some other time. But, you know, there are moves and changes and by that time we all forget. You know, we just... You'd be surprised how fast we move away from each other. How many times I want to be able to discuss something after Zazen or something like that while we're gone, you know, and then something else is happening. So, I do it that way, on the spot, more, if I can. How does it feel to sometimes just talk those words to yourself, and if you get this going, you just say, you just suddenly give a lecture in the middle of Zagreb?

[52:58]

Yeah, actually, that's more I used to do that from time to time. I haven't done it for a long time. But it's a good thing to do, is to just talk and do things other than about posture and things other than practice. It's a very appropriate time to do it. Thank you.

[53:43]

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