The question was that when did we start or what was the time when we decided to practice? And in our group, mostly we were able to get a sort of date or time when we started formal practice. But most of us didn't have the feeling that that wasn't the actual beginning of the practice. And we asked ourselves, how can this be traced back and found actually first signs in childhood. For example, inclinations like liking to go to church or going for a walk at night without the parents knowing it.

[01:13]

And events or situations where the feeling of being present was there. For example in a church. Well, children look for situations where certain awareness is fostered, like, for example, being in a church. Some of us recognize this as a root, where then later a sort of search and inquiry begin. At some point it can be a small thing that leads to the fact that you come across this group right here in the house.

[02:36]

With me it's like that on the outside, for example, and also with others. Outwardly it was with me, but also with others, just this seemingly small thing, which then in the end put oneself back, not back, but into this group or this practice. Two or three of us had seen a picture of you, a paper somewhere, or the Johanneshof. Without knowing anything about this group here, it was clear that these persons wanted to practice with you and the group and do this up until today.

[03:38]

Just from seeing the picture? For me it was the case. Really? I'd better be careful with my photographs. For me it was that I had been sitting for several months after the instructions of a certain book, and it was clear for me that from then on I would be continuing to sit. And actually, in fact, I look for a teacher. And what's interesting is I visited two teachers in Vienna. That was... And we had really good talks, but somehow it didn't ignite.

[04:47]

And then I saw the picture and the opening of the Johanneshof and some paper and here I came. But similar stories have also been experienced by others. This is only exemplary for me, but others in the group have experienced very similar things. This is just an example, but several of our groups had quite similar stories to tell. I think it's better to be like in the choir, when one part appears somewhere and is somehow invisible under the surface with another part. It seems to be like in the koan where some spot appears and is unseeingly being connected with another situation, another sentence, whatever, and there's a connection suddenly. And a seemingly small instance is necessary and it starts.

[05:48]

Mm-hmm. And altogether the whole discussion led us to the question, when actually is practice starting or beginning? We didn't come to a conclusion on that. And for example this time when you look in this meditation group or this practice group or whatever, this is looking around but this isn't yet a definitive practice. Something must have happened that you sort of take the, what shall I say, the burden to really get into that practice.

[06:55]

For some people it is something that happened to them. Other people put themselves to existential questions or the big questions of life. Or just simply are in a crisis. Yeah, thanks. Someone else. Hans, because I've been waiting for him all week. My problem is that there are several things I would like to tell. Okay. It sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't like to say too much or anything out of our group because it were very personal stories and I wouldn't feel good if I related that.

[08:23]

The day before yesterday we had the question of friendship arose, Dharma friendship, normal friendship, friendship with you. and a picture appeared. Manchmal erlebe ich hier im Janishof eine Kühle und eine Frische und das Bild was ich hatte war so eine Frische wie man sie manchmal auf einem Berg morgens experienced early in the morning, where the air is very clear, the sun goes up, it's cool, the contrast is very clear, the colors that almost touch one's face, an atmosphere and such a coolness.

[09:49]

what i experience here and again is a coolness a freshness like when you're in the very morning on a on a hill on a mountain the sun comes up and this the colors jump at you and this is cool and fresh such an atmosphere i And I noticed that observatories, for example in Chile, are being built in the desert, because you are far from civilization, where there is environmental pollution, where there is a lack of light, where you can observe the stars, the movement better than when you are closer to civilization, so-called civilization. And I thought of observatories for observing the stars being built far from civilization, like in Chile in the desert, where the pollution of the air is less or not there.

[10:56]

And it's also clear and, yes, distant from civilization, from the dust of civilization. And when I travel here, I notice how I feel it. And when I come here, I feel that I leave back many things, and this is different here than in my normal surrounding. It's not that I'm feeling well all the time here, but there is a clearness and a lightness which I experience here quite often. And I felt another image, almost like an experiment. An experiment under clear conditions, where a certain topic is clear, where I can achieve exact research results.

[12:06]

Such an atmosphere. And another picture came to me. There's an atmosphere here like an experiment under clear and defined conditions where I can have clear and defined results too. This is an atmosphere I experience here. I'm telling this now because I think a lot of what Gerhard said reminded me of my life in the group. I don't want to go into my own biographical background, that's why I'm here where I am now. I don't want to relate to my biographical background, but much which had been said in our group and also what Gerhard said is similar to what I experienced and lived. I'm telling this because I notice a change.

[13:15]

I can't exactly say where. It's more of a process where something begins. I can't exactly say where and when the change has taken place. I have done other things before. For example, I was a Zen Yassin. And much what drove me in former times was out of a societal but also personal suffering. This is different now. I'm not looking for a family and I'm not looking for friendship.

[14:31]

When this happens, it's miraculous, wondrous, but it's not what I came here for, come here for. Yes, and at the beginning of the year, in the seminar, we also had small groups and you, Roshi, came in and wanted to know, is there a question? At the beginning of the year it was in a seminar, we were in small groups and you came in and said, is there a question? No one had a question and you were somewhat, let's say, irritated. And in a way he said, well, there's a question I can go. Yes, somehow. And the question or the situation accompanied me all the time. And I thought, he's right. And this situation somehow accompanied me for quite some time and I thought, well, you're right.

[15:51]

That was a situation, for example, where a change became more conscious for me. The question was, what precisely do I want here? Not just a vague feeling of change or a self-experience, but what concretely, what precisely do I want? That somehow hit me, this situation, and it was something where I felt confronted with this question. and that sort of hit this situation and we're really fairly confronted with that question. The question about friendship irritated me because for me it was a concept and we should have been talking about each of our concepts about friendship before we would have gotten into a dialogue. And I have translated that into relationship for me.

[17:25]

So what kind of relationship do I have here and also to Roshi, what kind of relationship? And that is, for example, a point that interests me very much and where I would also like to deal with here or with other questions experimentally, so to speak. And for myself, I translated or transferred it into the term of relationship, and that is really what is interesting me, and I would like to sort of experiment and experience this when I'm here. Thanks. Goodness. Yeah, Carolina. I mean, that's... I think it's... And we started telling ourselves our biographies. Each one is of course singular, but there are certain patterns to be found.

[18:43]

Or if it was a love affair crisis, or people died, or after the end of the study, how does it go on? But also apart from that, books played an important role, especially Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind. which eventually led to a longer story. But one moment was certainly also a coincidence. For example, several people wanted to go to a seminar from someone else, who then suddenly got sick and then our teacher jumped in and, due to such unforeseeable circumstances, he was also arrested. Some were quite long stories, but others were incidents or chance played a role when, for example, a seminar was to be attended and

[20:06]

The person who held the seminar couldn't come and then they landed probably with you. For example, incidents which were planned. And friends played an important role, like, come and have a look, I have a smell, or you're in a crisis, come with me, this would do you good, this seminar or Sashin. it wasn't always crisis but also it was the search for a positive scale of of values for example what what where could i relate myself to for example One person started practicing, he wanted to stop smoking.

[21:29]

Okay. Thank you. It was such a little question. I can see. One aspect in our group were moments of intimate connection either with nature or for example being in churches. played a role. Or a deep longing, a yearning was felt for something which was somewhere but not in the cultural framework of common life.

[22:37]

And often, or a few times, the paths of the search for identity went through a time of social engagement, with which the time also used a frustration. So a dedication to where the path came back. And the pathways of finding one's identity also went through a social engagement where this engagement itself was felt after some time rather frustrating because nothing came back, so to say. There was no rewards in a way. In the sense that you consciously choose and pursue a practice that often comes from a crisis moment, already made an experience, a possibility, from a new perspective, but knew that the way there could not be done in any other way than to work on oneself and with practices.

[24:05]

And also the definitive decision to practice with oneself, through oneself was then really sort of set into reality or affected when there was a crisis then. There was some knowledge before, but really that this feeling of a work with myself or a work through myself, then when the crisis came, was put into effect. Yeah. Thank you. Yes, Iris? Yes. Every story, there were moments which sort of stood out as special moments. And in each of these related or told moments, it was clear and I felt it, so to say, it was for myself, even without knowing the stories before, it felt very clear, yeah, stood out.

[25:29]

Visually, I felt it, and also through sound, sensory information. So that these moments, even if they weren't the moments of the beginning, the very beginning, they were in fact practice moments which had an effect And very seldom it was one moment, but more often moment after moment in a sort of repetition, anew every moment. And the decision to practice anew was made again and again, repetitively.

[27:01]

And when I saw the red raksu... And what your teacher, Yaman Muman Roshi, said, that everything coming together makes this moment possible. This I found or recognized in the stories we had in our rhetoric. Okay. Yeah, this side of the room is silent. The title is almost... For me, it's like a parallel when you tell stories about the First Love or the Great Love. And only afterwards it came to me, I was in Dieter's group, that this was in fact what in our group, it was like telling each other stories of great love one had.

[28:17]

Although there is an object. And I think I find this very tense, this great love without an object, and I think this is what I was looking for when I was a child. A great love without an object. But an object which is much larger than everything else. That is not an object, but this is connectedness, this is unity. I've got a question. This is what we noticed in the group.

[29:28]

It appeared in a group and it's about access to practice and about different kinds of access to practice that people had, for example, also through music. The two things you said sort of are working in me. I mean there's more than two things you said. The one thing is, at least the quotation I will give in English is that You don't have to do Zen. You can also do Sufi meditation, for example.

[30:38]

But if you do one thing, do it 100%. And during the last Winter Branches seminar, you said different is different. And in the last Winterzweig, you said, different is different. And that's something that I... I'm speaking German now. That's something that occupies me a lot. To do one thing completely, on the one hand. On the other hand, maybe to have different approaches. And... So, one thing. In the koans it's about the two truths, the fundamental and the relative truth.

[31:38]

Let's say someone comes through fundamentally to some insight as, for example, the fisherman who's gazing at the sea, like the example you gave in the last Winter Bracelet. And someone else is sitting on the black cushion for many years and eventually comes to an insight also about fundamental truth. No, you said different is different. And that puzzles me. Can you... Can you speak more about that? [...] And it seems to me that if I read or hear about fundamental truths from a different angle or perspective that might be a difference to our practice is that the in the koans this simultaneity of fundamental truths

[33:28]

Out of other concepts, I don't hear the sameness of a fundamental and relative truth like is being spoken of in the koan. The oneness, let's say, of absolute or fundamental truth and conventional truth. that they are presented simultaneously. One, that is more, it seems to me, Zen, that's beyond me. That's the only difference I could find. Many statements, they sound pretty much, they could have been uttered by a Zen master, let's say. but they are affected by some other guy from another tradition.

[34:50]

Like Ramana Maharshi or Krishnamurti or whatever. First of all, let me just say I'll remember your question. But basically to say different is different is in contrast to some theological idea that there's one truth that everyone experiences. There's one truth for everything. The theological position is that there is one truth and all roads lead to that one truth.

[36:00]

I consider that a reductionist idea. And ultimately pernicious. Ah. So I prefer the non-ecumenical image. is that all these paths lead into the same forest, into the same mystery, but they end up in different places in the forest. And if you accept that everything is absolutely unique, there's no repetition, Unless you want to believe in oneness. And some people like that belief and need it.

[37:02]

Of course there are similarities. But... And until recently, everyone made babies the same way. But babies turn out to be each one different. Although some of them look like Elvis Presley. From those stories told in our group. One aspect which comes to me now. And part of it is a longing, a yearning, so to say.

[38:28]

I wouldn't know where it led to, but what I associated with being happy. And in my situation it was about finding something which I was independent yet happy. And through Zen practice it showed that having to be or wanting to be happy is not more on the foreground, is not so present anymore in what I'm doing. It's not foremost. And my question is, isn't there many people, this wish for happiness, the starting point,

[39:48]

Is it for you? It was, yeah. Yeah, I think for most people that's at least part of it. Or the freedom from suffering. Okay. Ulrich? I have a question. I've got a question too. When we understand that the point we're talking about have something to be, have to do with being, yeah, let's figure this out.

[41:15]

Move. Move, none. Caught. Caught, taken. Caught, taken. Something like, you know, something catches you. Yeah. Yeah, something deeper. And acknowledgement or... agreement and make sure of those too. And I try to focus my view on this activity because with that I can work. And when I try to look where do I find this activity in my body And where is it just at one point in time, but when I am awoken at 4.30 in the morning, all of a sudden for Zazen? I find a region in my back between my shoulder blades.

[42:25]

Which opens up the front. It helps to say a joyful yes. I wish everyone felt that way when the wake-up bell. Ring, ring, ring. Everyone dancing down the hall to the sender. This is also what I mean with the point I want to work with. This is what I mean with a point I want to work with. Yeah, okay. But I found this region back there.

[43:28]

And I wear this sign, the pine needle stitch, exactly there. What is the meaning And I ask myself, what's the meaning when we wear this sign at this place? Which looks like a sign which looks like an authority on activity. Well, we're not supposed to tell. But, I mean, I can say a little bit. Maybe a lot. This is also, as well as the pine needle stitch, is a symbol of the constellations in the sky.

[44:29]

So it's thought, you know, heaven and earth and I share the same root. So the sense that the not just an idea, the experience of the breath of the earth coming up through our Feet, especially our heels. And this interconnection with everything above us coming through here. But since most people don't experience that, you don't say that. I'm sorry I said it. You don't say that as people are making it because then they think, whoa, I'm tuned in.

[45:30]

But the fact is some people do feel it. So there's a kind of indication that this is a possibility for some of us. Just like, you know, the Buddha has the bump here. Well, many of us when we practice start feeling an itchy feeling here or a tingle here and With practice you get to feel it sort of present all the time when you're talking or not talking or feeling, and it becomes a kind of litmus test of your state of mind. So, just like the Buddha has this knuckle here, and it is so that when many begin to practice, they then also experience a kitzel or a ring or a work, so that later also

[46:33]

But you're not supposed to talk about these things. Because it makes some people feel excluded. And, um... But, you know, in the koans we've had, um, both... I think the, um... Blue Cliff Records, the first, Blue Cliff Records 53, has the line in it, he puts a glare in his eyes. And the first koan says, how can it bear sitting on the seat with... Sporting devil's eyes.

[47:48]

This is a negative way of saying one of the effects of teaching is when you enter the Sambhogakaya body as you teach. Or it says contemplating something and stretching. Looking... Reflecting and stretching. Yeah, and this refers to mindfulness and wisdom and yogic practices. Stretching means yogic practices. But it says that's for the middling and lesser. And koans watch out when they put something down because usually they're putting it up actually.

[49:13]

So you have to play with What is it? Sleeping and closing the door and sleeping is the way to receive those of highest potential. So what's that mean? Usually that's the opposite. You know, if everybody who came here to visit found Otmar in his room sleeping, Adin in his room sleeping, me in my room sleeping, you know, it might not go over so well with the practitioners. But it's not so bad when you're feeling a little sick, yeah. So then, but in fact, it's assumed that people are practicing wisdom, mindfulness and meditation.

[50:25]

And it says, raising the eyebrows. These are all means teaching from the Sambhogakaya body and not once the usual body. So... Because it's assumed a good teacher actually does teach always or sometimes from the Sambhogakaya body. But these things are sort of a little bit swept under the rug. Does that make sense? Agatha? Since Monday I haven't been here and just came back today. The house felt still and full.

[51:54]

And I just arrived in the group from Dita and it was very beautiful. Okay, thank you. It's interesting. I suggested the question, when did you start to practice, or when did you make a decision to practice? And I actually didn't expect to have so much said about being here at Johannesburg. But I would like to listen more, but again we're running out of what's called time.

[52:54]

Yes. I would like to add something. It has been reported. Yes. What hasn't been reported was for me quite important. The idea to live without fear. The thought, well, this could be learned, I would like to learn that. And that's what you said, what you spoke about near Tesho today and yesterday and also before, which sort of started a motor in myself. Okay. Yes, okay. Come out the other side.

[53:55]

Anyway, so I'd say there's several steps, decisions in practice. Usually there's the first encounter with practice somehow. The idea of it, some sense of it, etc. Just as a personal anecdote, when I was a teenager, what did happen once? Um... I was once a teenager.

[55:19]

I'm still a teenager. Anyway, I found myself occasionally going to a place in a kind of small forest, which I was drawn to, And I'd found myself going there, but I didn't know what to do once I got there. It just felt good to be in this clearing in the forest. And the other thing I used to do, which was somewhat similar, I'd climb buildings up on the corners of the buildings until I was up above the city and could sit on the edge of the building. I didn't know what to do once I got up there. But if I'd known about Zazen, it would have made all the difference.

[56:28]

I couldn't embody the experience, so I went to the forest, I climbed up the building. But if I could have embodied this feeling, No, I wouldn't have probably done those things, or I would have felt differently when I got to the clearing. I would have said Zaza. So now my feeling when I do Zaza is I'm going to the mountains, I'm going to the sea, I'm... All places where I might want to go are folded into Zazen. So I don't care about going anywhere. I'm happy to be sitting here. So I guess you could call that some kind of religious longing. And like it seems like many of you said, I used to like to go into churches sometimes and sit in the space of the church.

[57:39]

But I've always been, you know, too much of a... inclined to be a scientist to have any real interest in religion. But it still amazes me that at least my culture that I grew up in presented me no chance to embody my feelings except to the extent that it happened unintentionally. And I couldn't I was unable to accept any belief system.

[58:48]

And Dogen's view, not Dogen's, the Buddha's supposedly last things he said was to put no head above your own. And for me that meant the same, something similar. I could not put anybody's view of the world on myself unless I experienced it. So until I found Zazen, I had no way to experience what I was longing for. So I wouldn't say that Many of various kinds of experiences preceded my decision to practice, but I didn't encounter practice until I met Suzuki Roshi.

[59:54]

So one of the steps or markers is when you first encounter practice. A second is, I would say, when you decide to practice. When you decide to bring practice into your life. That's a very important, of course, step. And some of us kind of crab wise slide into it and some of us, you know, but it's an important step. The next important step is when you make a irrevocable decision to practice.

[61:05]

And that's when you decide not to bring practice into your life, but when you decide to bring your life into practice. When you decide that from now on, my activity is going to be Buddha activity. Now, Dogen says that this irrevocable decision is the initial enlightenment experience. And all the realization experiences you had as part of being alive, which we have such experiences.

[62:16]

Frank? But you were sitting so carefully, exactly behind Mahakavi, and it was like a double moon. I could see both moons. And you haven't said anything. Please, say something before you go. No, no, you can wait a minute. What would you like to say? Thank you. Our director, this is how he gets out of it. How did you decide to practice? When? I felt so close. I never felt so close before. And that, when you started feeling that closeness, you decided, hey, this is what my life is. I try to stay close. Okay. Now you can leave. Okay.

[63:19]

Now, so I sometimes say that these realization experiences are like little bubbles. that float around you in space. And they're mostly inside the bubbles. And sometimes I think when I see a student, I... relate to them partly in relation to how many bubbles I see floating around them. And the irrevocable alchemical decision to practice Is like a little needle that starts popping these bubbles. And they start flowing into your life. And then other experiences, various realization and enlightenment experiences, begin to

[64:22]

affect your life in ways they wouldn't if you hadn't made this irrevocable decision. And somewhere in there, part of the It doesn't have to be in the same order. But another very important step is when you meet a teacher with some realization, at least some, And as some of you know, my first experience of that was not Suzuki Roshi, but a man in Iran called Shukrullah Ali. And maybe he was a Sufi, I don't know. He was just in this little town of Bandar Shapur working to earn money for his family, which was back in the mountains somewhere.

[65:42]

But he was the first person I met who seemed to be, who was, the way I imagined, I hoped a human being could be like. So, along with the irrevocable decision, the fact in another person that it seems to be possible, is possible, also is it. A step. And somewhere in this order, the next step is when you see that you make a decision to an irrevocable position to practice for others as well as yourself.

[67:16]

And that deepens the alchemical transmutation. And then, of course, in there are realization experiences. And finally, I'd say some kind of relaxed, settling into the Dharma as just the way of being alive. Because of the others or for the others? Practicing. Because and for. And through. And through. But it's also simply to like creating a place where you help people practice.

[68:34]

Create situations where people encounter the practice. Okay. So those are, you know, like all... And again, Dogen would say that, and does say, not would say, that further enlightenment experiences are rooted in that irrevocable decision to practice. Now, what Buddhism means by enlightenment experiences? Now, again, you may have a theology, all enlightenment experiences are the same. You're entering into the one truth of, you know, I'm going to be Matisse. Now, let me just touch on one other aspect.

[69:41]

We're creating an institution. When Bodhidharma... whoever the guy was. And there are things that we think were probably written by him. And he lived in about the 5th century. Most of the stories about Bodhidharma are written in about the 8th century. And there were a lot of Buddhist teachers around before Bodhidharma. But we, for some reason, various reasons, Gui Feng, Zong Mi and others decided there's this lineage from the 28 Indian patriarchs or foot ancestors up through Bodhidharma.

[70:56]

And probably the lineage up to about 600 or 700 is completely made up. I mean there were real people who practiced but those particular names are pretty much trying to create an institution. So it's said that Bodhidharma said around 300 years or so after Bodhidharma died, They said, Bodhidharma said, I transmitted to Hueke inwardly the jewel of the Dharma and outwardly the robe.

[71:57]

Inwardly the awakened mind and outwardly the authority to teach through the robe. Yeah. Those are... Yeah, they're something real. But they function to create an institution. Okay. Now, why did they choose Bodhidharma or create Bodhidharma as the figurehead for this?

[72:57]

And not some other of the Buddhist teachers. Because Bodhidharma was chosen because he transmitted, supposedly, the awakened mind of the Buddha and not the sutras. Now, from Bodhidharma's time on, the emphasis was on a transmission which was simultaneously the sutras, the teachings, and the transmitted awakened mind. Okay. Now, this was quite controversial in China at the time. Because the teaching was, and the sutras were thought to be, hey, this is what it has to be.

[74:25]

Okay. Now, all of the major religions have a figure at the head of it. Mohammed, God, Jesus, the Virgin Mary. But what's the relationship to this figure? I mean, in Buddhism, With Zen particularly, the relationship is that you also can be Buddha through knowing Buddha's activity. Okay, and Buddha's activity is then kind of use that word, troped as mind.

[75:35]

So I think we can say the embodied, awakened mind. So Matsu, is one of the people they've attributed to. This very mind is Buddha. Okay. Now... This all was rather controversial in China because all the sutra schools said, what are those Zen people talking about? This is new age. But the Zen folks said, hey, all these monasteries need abbots and we're the only ones that are really awakened. Choose us. So somehow it worked pretty well and Zen became the dominant school. Now, if you read scholars, they're always saying, because everyone believes in Freud, so everyone believes that ultimately all institutions and individuals are selfish.

[76:55]

I think we all know that's only partly true. So all of these schools are saying, oh, they created the lineage for political reasons to compete with this school. Mostly that's nonsense. The experiences you've all related to each other in the small groups and then now... There's very, to probably zero or very small degree, are any of you politically motivated? to establish an institution. These are your real experiences. They're not from a sutra, they're not from church lore or something like that.

[78:12]

They're not rooted in belief. They're rooted in your experience of the potential of an awakened mind. Or the experience of an awakening mind. Or some experience that goes beyond our usual personality to do something. So the Zen school recognizes this. And if somebody doesn't think it's the truth, Just look at the practitioners and you see the truth. Now, right now, the Soto School in Japan is involved with some kind of political stuff here.

[79:13]

First of all, they disdain the Westerners as unable to use chopsticks, speak Japanese or practice Zazen. What else could they do? Use chopsticks, speak Japanese, or do Zazen. Only Japanese people can really do Zazen. Really, they think things like that. I can cross my legs as well as almost anyone. Yeah. Okay. Not as well as most anyone, or barely. Anyway. But now... Buddhism in the West is such a large, growing phenomena, the Japanese Soto school thinks they should do something about it. I don't think that they're kind of like really, oh, we want to get bigger and more powerful or something. I don't think they're so motivated that way. They just don't know what to do.

[80:30]

And out of the kindness of their hearts, they think they should recognize Western Buddhism. Yeah, and we have not been waiting around for their kindness. Okay. But I think they're genuinely motivated like that. But they're part of an institution. And the only way they can imagine expressing the kindness of their hearts is to get Western Buddhism under the control of the Japanese institution. Okay. So now how are they going to get Japanese, Western Buddhism under the control of their institution? Okay. Because they think that's the best for us, because it's the best for them.

[81:32]

Okay, so they very kindly volunteer to do sashins in the west for the western group. And they send a team of monk pros to lead sashins in San Francisco. They've asked me if I would do it and so forth. That's the first step. It seems innocent enough. And they say, we'll teach you all the correct forms. And we'll do a Sashin and then we'll approve of that you know the correct forms. So you do learn. You learn how to do the Mokugyo just a little bit better. Okay. But then the next step is they decide

[82:34]

What is... the form you have to do. Once you've agreed to this much, it's like putting a frog in cold water. You know that image, right? You drop a frog in boiling water, he jumps out. You put a frog in cold water and heat it up, he just gets cooked. So they think, oh, those Western frogs, they like Zazen, so we'll show them how to do Zazen. And then they'll get cooked into the Soto school.

[83:49]

And so the next step they're trying now is how to approve of who's real teachers in the West. Okay. Now, Tsukiroshi asked me to go to Japan. And the reasons he gave me And I was quite happy practicing with Sukhya Rishi. Because he wanted me to see Japanese Buddhist institutions. This is longer than I thought, but I should finish. And he... wanted me to see ordinary Japanese people practicing Buddhism.

[84:56]

And one thing he asked me to do in San Francisco was to attend all the funeral ceremonies of the Japanese congregation. And the Japanese congregation was quite old, and so they were dying once a month or so. So I went to a lot of funeral ceremonies. to see ordinary Japanese Buddhism. But he wanted me to be engaged in his own dialogue, perplexity with Japanese institutional Buddhism.

[85:58]

So I Because he himself had a problem with Japanese institutional Buddhism. And the main reason he came to the West is because he was disillusioned with Japanese Buddhism. Now, these many Tibetan teachers came to the West because they were thrown out of Tibet or escaped from Tibet because of the Chinese government. And by the way, the Chinese government, I don't know, you probably all know this, has made a law It applies to Tibet, too.

[87:02]

That all reincarnations have to be approved of by the Chinese government. There's no reincarnation is real unless the Chinese make it legal. You see what Bodhidharma faced. Probably much the same attitude. State-controlled religion. When the Panchen Lama There's two Panchen Lamas, right? And there's two, I forget, and two Karmapas. And what they're afraid of is the Dalai Lama is getting old. And they want to control who his reincarnation is.

[88:02]

But his holiness is quite slippery. And he said there may not be another Dalai Lama. Aha! Okay. Because, of course, the Chinese don't want some... I mean, the Tibetan view is that Anybody can be reincarnated as the Dalai Lama, but they say pretty surely will be Tibetan. And the Chinese don't want the Tibetans in exile to decide who the Dalai Lama is. All right. Now, Sukhirishi, I said the Tibetans left because of China, the Tibetan lamas.

[89:30]

Most of the early Japanese Zen teachers left because of disillusionment with Japanese Zen. Yasutani Roshi and others. Okay. So Suki Roshi's view, some people like Yasutani Roshi just said, The Soto School doesn't know anything. It's ridiculous. I know what's the way. And he was a big influence in the 60s in America. Suzuki Roshi thought this was too extreme. Suzuki Roshi's view was we should... respect Japanese Buddhism, but we shouldn't be institutionally part of Japanese Buddhism.

[90:45]

Yeah. Okay. Now, but we are creating an institution. Also, aber wir schaffen hier eine Institution. Um, Sunday, Leon and his partner, I'm, we'll, lovingly marry? Should I perform weddings? Is that the job? What? Should I? I mean, that's making us an institution. But But if we bring our life into this practice, who else is going to marry us?

[91:48]

And I very happily married Beata and Nico a long time ago. And they have two budding Buddhists living at home. Buddhists and Buddhists, yeah. Anyway, so I think we... So, I mean... Do you realize we're making an institutional decision when I decide to marry? Well... I think it's unavoidable. Plus, I want to do it. Okay. What about funerals? Should we do funerals? What are you going to do when I die?

[92:52]

I mean, you probably won't throw me out in the garden in the compost. In Crestone, we can cremate in the backyard. I used to tell my first wife, you know, take me up this year and cremate me. And she'd say, I am not going to put you in the trunk of the car and drive. I'm sure I'll get a ticket. And I'd say, what's in your trunk? You say that's your husband? Okay. So, your decision what to do with me when I die, or our decision what to do, like with Philip Whelan. He died. I did his funeral. I've done a lot of funerals. Alan Watts' funeral I did. So, we're making an institution.

[94:07]

Now, I have no interest in reincarnation. I hope this is my last life. And I know it will be, because I don't think there's any others. Yes. George Bernard Shaw was asked, what if when you die, you actually find yourself at the pearly gates before God? Somebody said, well, what would you say to God? Shaw said, but sir, you didn't give us enough evidence. So, anyway, I'll be very surprised if anything, you know.

[95:09]

So, when I do a funeral ceremony, should I use the traditional language which glosses reincarnation? Or should I just say, you knew you were great, you're dead, be done with it? There's some things you don't seem to have to translate. It just went under the laughter. No, no. It's just three things. All right. I'm doing a number of ordinations next month.

[96:26]

Two monk priest ordinations and I think eight lay ordinations. This is creating an institution. We're recognizing the whole number. But the decision to want to receive the precepts is something that happens inside us. It's not about religion or church or institutions. And I'm as best I can following what was laid out for Bodhidharma in the 8th century. Transmit the awakened embodied mind and also transmit the okesa as an outer authority to teach.

[97:48]

So I've done some transmission ceremonies and I'll do some more. And we're transmitting, in this case we follow the Japanese and Chinese custom of a brown robe. Yeah, so should we... I mean, I'm debating this all the time. But my feeling is that all of everything we do is rooted in our practice and actual experience. But institutions take on a life of their own. So how do we keep developing an institution that allows us to relate to each other in a certain way?

[98:56]

But ideally, like your star astronomical observatory, has no power in the outside world. How do we create an institution which is really related to our actual experience and helps us relate to each other? And yet doesn't take over. I've created a previous Buddhist institution in which it seems like the institution has taken over. Now, I'm saying this because this is all in the background of these koans.

[99:59]

It's no accident that the Shoyaroku starts with, what is the Buddha? And the second case is about Bodhidharma. And the Hekigai Roku starts with Bodhidharma. Is Bodhidharma the real start of our practice? No. But does Bodhidharma represent, on the one hand, the robe as an institution and the awakened mind as the fact? I think we should try to do it. To keep this basic teaching, which you can see in the koans. Yeah, it starts with Bodhidharma.

[101:14]

But it's really about what is the actual experience these teach. teachers represent and are conveying in these teachings. So there's a kind of formal lip service paid to the institutional tradition, but it's rooted in the actual experience of the reader. Okie doke. Thanks.

[101:48]

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