Sorry, we're starting late. And are we going to meet this evening? Okay. Usually we haven't met in the evening, but we've met the first evening, I think. Most of the time we met the second evening. Second evening, but not the first? Okay. Well, I'll leave it up to you if you want to meet this evening. We can decide what time is dinner? Half past six. Half past six, okay. So I can't talk about anything I spoke about last year, right?

[01:12]

Whenever we meet next, this evening or tomorrow morning, it'd be nice if we sat closer. For me, anyway, it would be nice. They should do it now. You can do it now if you want. Yes, it's awkward. It's up to you. Not me at all. Now they're wondering because they will be first drawn, second drawn. Yes. I know it's not a circle anymore, but I prefer being close to you than in a circle. Sir, you can take a picture.

[02:25]

As most of you know, those of you who aren't new, at least. It's a very special pleasure for me to meet with you each year. And we have a little time longer than most seminars. We try to look at something fairly fully. So this time I thought of something like causation and change and transformation and realization. And I'm always, when I imagine being here with you, I'm thinking about how does this make sense for psychotherapeutic practice. Maybe you'd

[04:11]

Rather, I didn't think about that. And just talked about Buddhist practice. On the other hand, maybe you wish I thought about it more and made this more relevant to your work. And I think not all of you are psychotherapists, so maybe you'll have to just be patient with that part of what we're speaking about there. Okay. Now I just was, as many of you know, I was just with many of you at the meeting near Heidelberg. Of systemic, of Hellinger's systemic therapist. Systemic therapist. And she's here to learn psychological terms.

[05:45]

Oh, this is Marie-Louise. Not everyone. Marie-Louise, is that? And she's translated for me now several times and for Sasheen, my wife. It seems to work out okay, so we'll see if it works out today. So, and, you know, I had several conversations which were quite good at this... meeting, Wiesloch. And someone gave me some English tapes of Hellinger sessions. And this confirmed what I had, the little I knew already.

[06:55]

At least it seems to me that the work that systemic therapists are doing works, but it's at the edge of what is understandable. Yeah, so in that context And I assume that it's a context that in ways applies to most approaches to psychotherapy. While we may have systems at work and tell us something about each other, Do we have any theories for what this is about?

[08:16]

So then I wonder, does the world view of Buddhism, is this useful for therapists? Can we, is the theoretical basis of Buddhism useful? Is it useful for a psychotherapist to explore the field of being which is generated by psychotherapeutic practice. Yes, since I'm not a psychotherapist, I'm maybe on... fragile ground here trying to imagine this situation.

[09:18]

But my own experience is in all relationships some kind of field is created. Some kind of field is being created right now by us sitting here together. That's assumed in Buddhism. So can Buddhism be useful in understanding this field we generate? Which I think is not really assumed by our usual world view. So I'm assuming that in fact psychotherapy is often at the edge of what we consider the world.

[10:23]

Or suggests a world rather more complex or even different than the common view. Okay, so I think some of the things Buddhism can offer is a worldview that's experienceable. It's not just theoretical. It's experienceable and expandable. If you enter into the experience of it, the more it's familiar to you, you can... you can expand it into areas where perhaps Buddhism itself hasn't gone.

[11:47]

Yeah. Now, I was just at a meeting, not just, but in the spring sometime, meeting at Esalen. Michael Murphy is the founder of Esalen, is a very close friend of mine. And he has four sort of think tank type groups meeting once or twice a year. And I decided for one year or two years to go to three of them. Yeah, I don't know what to call them, but they're just 15 or 20 people who meet and try to, on a certain, some topic.

[13:01]

One's on evolution and the evolution of consciousness as well. And conscious evolution. And this is scientists as well as people like myself. And another is survival after bodily death. Yeah, and I'm not too interested in that. I have enough trouble surviving my bodily life. Yeah. But it does bring up a lot of things that are related to people who study that. Aber es bringt sehr viele Dinge herauf, die damit verwandt sind, welches die Leute dort studieren. And one person, an old friend of mine, Charlie Tart, he's done some of the best work in some of these areas in America.

[14:28]

And one of the examples is... that one of the things he did, he found a woman who kept having experiences of being up at the ceiling and stuff like that. Which is not so uncommon. Even when I was young going to sleep, I would find I felt like I was up somewhere like that. So he hid a coin or some kind of object, I figured, what was up on a beam up behind that you couldn't see from down here. And she seemed to be able to create this feeling fairly easily of being up out of her body.

[15:29]

So she'd lie down and She'd go into the state, and he would be sitting there, and then she would tell him what was on the piece of paper above. He would write something different each time. So this is like your question, does the soul need a body? Does the mind need a body? Or what kind, what is, we're at the edge of something that we can't explain when we talk about things like this.

[16:35]

And the general consensus of everybody there The general consensus agreement of everyone there in that group at Esalen is we have lots of facts but no theories. No one can make theories about these things. But they seem to be pretty real. So I'm not going to try to explain anything like that today or tomorrow or the next day. The question is can we develop a theoretical basis for at least thinking about these things? And of course, during this time we're together, I'd like as much input from you as you can input.

[17:45]

I mean, not just input for me, but for the discussion. So what I thought about was to, if we want to, if we're going to look at Buddhism as a theoretical basis, for a world view, we bring into contact with our own worldview.

[19:12]

I mean, not necessarily to change our worldview, but at least to look at another possibility. Maybe we replace our present worldview then maybe we extend or refine our own worldview. I mean, at least this is the process I'm always involved in. I don't have any... I have this... My own feeling is I'm always trying to create a basis for understanding and imagining what kind of world we're in.

[20:17]

For the world I'm living in. And a basis mostly for experiencing this world we live in. And extending the basis, the experienceable basis. Okay. So if we do that, I think it might be useful, would be useful, to look at the roots of the Buddhist worldview. And the Buddhist worldview is rooted in the four so-called noble truths. Now, I think pretty much you could make a case that all of the complexity of Buddhism can be folded back into the Four Noble Truths.

[21:41]

This is in itself interesting. But you can take four quite simple things and have at the root of a... Certainly one of the most complex philosophical systems, practice systems on the planet. On the planet. Oh, plenty. Okay, so let me just put a simple form of these so-called noble truths on. We haven't said anything important yet. Maybe we won't.

[22:42]

So, I mean, probably more to you. No. I only have a red one. The first noble truth is substance. And I think we have to undertake some time for ourselves and think about what is suffering. So the second is... Very simple. That there's an origin in suffering. Or simply, there's a cause. And third, that there's cessation. Dass ein Ende von Leiden existiert.

[24:19]

Und das bedeutet auch, dass es ein Ende von Ursachen gibt. Oder so ähnlich. Also wir müssen erforschen, was das bedeutet. Und das vierte ist, dass es dort einen Pfad gibt. And most of Buddhism is the path, the practice. And if we start with the path, we can go back and see if it has anything to do with this. The path is rooted in these three.

[25:23]

And the path of It's the eightfold path. It's the views. Intentions. Concepts. und die anstrengung oder bemühe und achtsamkeit und konzentration

[26:46]

And suffering is usually birth. aging, disease, but also contact, the unpleasant, separation from the pleasant, and unfulfilled wishes.

[28:02]

You can't read it, I'm sure. I'm sure you can't read it. Birth, death, age, illness, connection with the unloved and separation from the pleasant, Contact with what's unpleasant. Separation from the pleasant and unfulfilled wishes. Unerfüllte Wünsche. Now there's... You know, we can talk about more... As therapists or just as living this life, there's lots of kinds of suffering we come into. Maybe we don't all follow these categories. Of course, physical pain is not suffering in this life. But of course, in this context, physical pain cannot be found there.

[29:13]

So this middle path, and Buddha chose this middle path. So around 528 B.C. Buddha was enlightened under the Bodhi tree and then he went and met his five companions from his earlier practice would become disgusted with him because he'd ceased from the mortification from the developing concentration through mortification through suffering.

[30:16]

Is that the same as Asketikler? Asceticism, mortification. Certainly, if he decided against asceticism, extreme asceticism, he obviously was able to feel pain. I bring this up only because often when I speak about this, people think it means freedom from pain. Even if a Buddha sits down on a nail, he's still going to jump up. Because there's a lot of nails all evenly spaced and he sits down very gently, he might be able to do it. Of course, physical pain, the relationship to physical pain can become very different.

[31:32]

It can be an experience which you don't react to in the usual way of trying to get away from. It's more in the realm of sensation than it is in the realm of pain. But it's still pain. I mean, you have to know enough to get your hand out of the fire. Okay. So I think that's one thing we could talk about. What do we mean by suffering? And then what do we mean by cause? Something is caused, we receive it. We have to receive the cause.

[33:04]

Then we have to hold it or release it. So already here you have the realm of practice. How do you receive a cause? And this is again, of course, karma is the word for cause in Buddhism. Or the word for that which is caused, which you retain in a certain way. Retain is also hold somehow. Yeah, hold. Again, that what we? What is caused and that we retain in a certain way. So if we're going to talk about causation and change, we should talk about what karma means as a theory in Buddhism.

[34:06]

And I think that if we look carefully at... What? I'm sleeping. You're sleeping? You look like you're awake. Oh, yeah? Okay. Okay, so then, I mean, you know, anyway. How things are caused and how we receive that cause in the present is very definitely worth looking at. And when we receive it, what do we do with it? Now, in early Buddhism, the cause is primarily considered to be desire.

[35:11]

In later Buddhism, it's primarily considered to be duality. Okay, so that's a big shift. I think that's an interesting shift. Okay, so then we have sensation. Can we really imagine an end to suffering? We can improve our situation so we don't suffer as much. We can understand suffering Or we can understand or accept suffering, rather. Okay.

[36:30]

And we can understand the causes of some of our suffering. But can we end suffering? Can we, even without understanding the causes, can we end it? Buddhism doesn't emphasize so much understanding the causes. Buddhism emphasizes ending suffering itself. Whatever the cause is. So that's a rather different way of looking at it. Okay. So what could this mean? That there's an end or that there's a... Can causation end? What kind of place is this where there's cessation?

[37:53]

Okay, so here I'm just now just trying to lay out some territory here. Okay, so views here. is understanding this. But views also are, usually we put right or perfected views here. Perfected, perfected, perfected. So it's thought that Your views control what happens here. You start out with wrong views. Or deluded views. Most of us do. then we can go, what is a deluded view?

[39:00]

But if you have a deluded view, then you intend it, then it's expressed in your conduct and your speech. You're reifying it all the time. And you can work with your conduct and speech But if it's based on wrong views, there's not too much you can do about it. But the sense is, if you say, take your livelihood. This is just ordinary life. These come together in your livelihood. It means how you put your life together. Mainly it means your work. Practically speaking.

[40:01]

Farmer or a therapist? If you're a therapist, is it way of life? Is it way of life? way of life, but really more practically your job. So, yeah. Okay. So you can start here, you can just start looking at your own livelihood. Are your relationships to others, and in particular the way you earn a living, good for you and good for the world?

[41:19]

A path means if it's not, it's affecting everything. And generally it's thought, unless you've got these five together, You can't make the kind of effort. Dogen talks about the total exertion of each moment. So this effort is required for the concentration which allows you to possibly enter this pure noble truth. So also, once you develop mindfulness and concentration, your first run through the Eightfold Path, you can think of as a kind of inventory process.

[43:05]

So if you're interested in working with this worldview, you just start taking an inventory of your own behavior. To take an inventory of your own behavior, you have to start practicing mindfulness. So then we need to know something about the skills of mindfulness. And usually this is mindfulness of the body, of the emotions, of the mind. And of the breath. So, with mindfulness you can begin to notice what your views are. And that also helps to have some concentration.

[44:49]

Because with mindfulness and concentration, you can begin to observe your intention. I presume in a psychotherapeutic situation you're looking at what the client's intentions are. I presume you have to explore your own intentions. And the intentions you have at the moment you're in a relationship with a client must be a major ingredient in the field created between you and the client.

[45:52]

So a practitioner A serious practitioner is one of the things he or she is always aware of. It's what intentions... do I have just now in each situation? What intentions do I have right now standing, talking with you? And if I do have a feeling of particular intentions being present to me and talking to you. I may find that there's some dissonance with my conduct or dissonance with my speech. I may find I feel good about someone but sometimes in certain moods

[46:57]

I say something I don't like. I know somebody, for instance, I know who I practice with. In a situation where there's mutual responsibility in a situation where there's mutual responsibility for this person's practice, where if this person's name came up, then in the interest of trying to make this person understandable, I spoke about this person in a way which I realized the people I was speaking with couldn't understand. And I felt very strongly this is wrong speech. And that was about a month ago, and I'm still suffering from it.

[48:30]

It was a very minor thing, but still what was important is not whether I don't think I caused any harm, but for a moment I wasn't really present in my speech. So then I have to examine the basis of my mindfulness in certain kinds of situations. And the basis for that mindfulness also is a certain kind of concentration on exactly what's happening. on exactly what's happening.

[49:38]

So that's just, I mean, I'm trying to make this list something real or useful. And you can look at your own, for instance, you can examine your own energy at any moment. If you really track sort of the inventory, if you really inventory the topography of your energy, There are certain situations where you feel less energy and certain situations where you feel more energy. So how that's related to these others is the practice of the Eightfold Path. So the second time you go through the eightfold path, not just taking an inventory, but you bring a feeling of concentration and mindfulness to each of the paths.

[50:55]

So, for example, you have a rule. You don't sacrifice your state of mind. So, because concentration When you have a feeling of concentration and mindfulness, your state of mind is going to be quite good. Probably in incremental stages. You make a decision not to sacrifice your state of mind. So if you If your job, for instance, makes you lose your state of mind, you change your job.

[52:10]

Or you change how you're at your job. So these have a consequence. and usually you don't have to quit your job unless you're a bank robber or more disguised versions of that usually If you do find ways to not sacrifice your state of mind, surprising you, your job usually goes better. The problem I had when I had regular work, I worked for the University of California.

[53:11]

Which sounds like it should be a good job. Yeah, you're working for a university. That's a nice, honest place. But there was a lot of backdating of letters and fudging about money. And people trying to lie about somebody else to get their position in this. Yeah, I saw the chairman of the Department of Psychology at Stanford. Department of Psychology at Stanford. Virtually have a nervous breakdown because the department attacked him so thoroughly for trying to emphasize more therapeutic work and less research.

[54:34]

And one person started rumors about him, which the others found convenient to support. So even in a place like that of psychological health, People committed to psychological health. Everyone was sacrificing their state of mind. When I was in that kind of work and working Do you lie? Do you backdate a letter because someone asked you to? I think I found those quite difficult decisions. Now, can we have a meditation period in the morning?

[56:09]

Okay. So what time last year did we start the regular session? Not meditation, just the... Um wie viel Uhr sind letztes Jahr diese, normalerweise die Vorträge oder so losgegangen? Nine? Nine o'clock. So we had meditation at 7.30 or something like that? Und um halb acht Meditation? Is that okay for tomorrow? Ist das in Ordnung für morgen? Okay. Does anybody need some meditation instruction or suggestions? Braucht irgendjemand eine Anweisung für die Meditation oder irgendwelche Vorschläge? I'll say a little something tomorrow. Okay. I mean, he has a pillow big enough for four or five of us. So if you didn't bring a pillow, you can sit with him. Yeah. Okay, so maybe we can sit for a few minutes and then we have dinner.

[57:28]

I'm not here, I feel, to teach you Zen Buddhism. I feel I'm here to share with you, to show you perhaps something about Buddhism. Yeah. That might be useful to you as psychotherapists. And I'm going to speak as if all of you were psychotherapists. Though I'd be interested at the end if some people, if there are one or two who aren't psychotherapists, found this useful.

[58:30]

So, you know, we just sat 40 minutes a little while ago. So and just now we sat for 20, 25 minutes. Maybe we don't need to sit the second period so quickly. So quickly. So soon after. Yeah, I don't know what you'd like. No matter what seminar I do, there's always complaints that there isn't enough sitting or that there's too much. But still I should probably say a little about sitting for those of you unfamiliar with Zen sitting.

[59:51]

I think the most startling thing and most difficult for Theravadan and Tibetan sitters, practicers, is that we don't do anything in Zen sitting. We just sit there. Or we try to sit there. Yeah. And so the basic mental posture is overall is uncorrected mind. Now there's lots of theoretical, philosophical, and historical reasons why Zen is this way. And I won't, unless you ask, there's no reason to discuss it.

[61:02]

The fact is that, in any case, that Zen sees Maybe we could say Zen sees the body as a mass of acupuncture points. And as you know, it makes a difference whether you put the needle here or there. So it makes a difference actually just how exactly you sit. And one of the first things one notices is one gets a little bit experienced in sitting.

[62:04]

The chin is a dimmer switch. If you sit a little bit like this, the thinking goes up. You move your chin down, thinking tends to stop. If you pull it in too much, there's some kind of emotional restriction. But your whole body is like that. No. Tongue at the roof of the mouth inhibits saliva formation. It comes at a certain stage of meditation. And it completes one of the circuits, energy circuits, or chi circuits, as does putting your hands together.

[63:23]

But these are hard to notice until you're... They're easy to practice, but they're hard to notice, the difference, until your practice is somewhat mature. So the most important Again, always part of your posture is your back. You should sit in a way that you can lift up through your back. And let me take it like you try to lift that point. That happens. Let me take it a point further and say it's not just lifting, we're trying to come into a feeling of verticality.

[64:44]

Let me use this as a way to introduce also the thorough degree. Let me use this also as a way to introduce The thorough degree to which Zen is dialectical and dialogical. Okay. Because just in your posture there's always a dialogue going on between an ideal posture and your own posture you accept. There's a dialogue going on between bringing your attention to your breath and thinking.

[65:48]

And it's a mistake to think you want to achieve a state. You want to achieve the dialogue. Now, realizing, let's say, the dialogue, Also diesen Dialog zu verwirklichen. Also kann man entweder diese Endpunkte mehr betonen. Also kann man die Endpunkte mehr betonen. So wie man möchte, kann man das wählen. Now, what you find out is that this dialogue changes. Okay.

[67:00]

Now, if I say dialectical, I'm emphasizing the philosophical basis of Buddhism. And if I say dialogical, I'm emphasizing the way in which Buddhism, Zen particularly, turns everything into a dialogue. So there's a dialogue, first of all, between relaxing and lifting. Between an ideal posture and accepting the posture you have. And then there's a dialogue between verticality and horizontality. And then there is a dialogue between verticality and horizontality.

[68:11]

What do I mean by that? When you... Okay. At first, the ideal posture is an effort. And the ideal posture informs your own posture. Okay. But the basis is to keep accepting your own posture. and finding a way to be relaxed and at ease. We could say that almost the whole instruction of Buddhism for the first years is just see if you can be relaxed and at ease.

[69:16]

And accepting. And see if you can get the little gewissen out. Yeah. But after a while, the ideal posture begins to ask you to sit in the ideal posture. It's not so much your body wants to just find its own posture. your body really desires to move into the ideal posture.

[70:26]

And that's when you start coming into a verticality. And at some point, the ideal posture takes over. And sits you. Like at some point your breathing stops being interfered with by observation. And even within being observed it breathes itself. And these are steps toward the power of feeling your life live itself. It's not you living your life, it's your life lives you. Yeah, I don't know.

[71:26]

The words, I can try to... Move the words around so it gives you a feeling. Okay. Now once you begin to feel this verticality, strangely you open yourself to a horizontality. You open yourself to this field we're talking about. Okay. Field of mind and field of a constellation. Knowing this field doesn't depend on verticality, but it's one of the main gates to a direct perception of it, a direct knowing of it.

[72:53]

Although knowing the field, feeling the field, doesn't depend on this experience of verticality. It's a gate to a kind of tangible experience of it. Now, of course, you can't have your clients do you know, zazen for an hour before they see you. And you can't run out every 10 minutes and check to see if they're vertical. Not reading a magazine. Although I do think the waiting room could be a zenda. for 10 minutes or 15 minutes.

[74:04]

But I wonder about things like how do you, if you're, you know, having seen some of this film of Bert Hellinger working, You get some kind of slightly depressed person and you ask him to go up and pick some people to be his immediate family. He's barely able to imagine touching somebody on the shoulders, let alone turning them into his grandmother. So I wonder if you could have people stand back, all the groups stand back to back, say, and roll or something like that. So each person begins to feel the other's physical presence.

[75:12]

And says, I like it when I come in a room and it's all set up wrong. But then I can get everyone to get up and move their chairs and everything. And after that they're much more settled. And they're much friendlier with each other. That's not why I had you move yesterday. I just wanted to be nearer. One of the reasons we emphasize sitting still and not scratching in Zen which is perhaps useful to be reminded of, and to sit for a specific length of time decided prior to the sitting.

[76:40]

means you would break the adhesive connection between thought and action. So you feel you can let anything happen and you don't have to get up or act on it. And that's a tremendous power. Now I may say things that are pretty too obvious. I apologize. And I may say things that seem obvious to me, but aren't obvious to you. But it's also the case that it's amazing what happens when you examine something simple thoroughly.

[78:05]

I mean, all, every teaching I emphasize is to some degree suffering. But perhaps Buddhism is the only teaching which emphasizes absolutely clearly that there's an end of suffering. Yeah, so right away I can ask you, can you believe that? That's the first problem. Second problem, perhaps we could say is, can you understand it in a way that you can believe it? You have to start somewhere.

[79:14]

Okay. But it's a tremendous challenge for Buddhism to make... It's a tremendous challenge for teaching to make this statement. And it's worth stopping and thinking about that challenge. And or we just take causation. It must be one of the most stickiest philosophical problems in philosophy. What is causation?

[80:15]

How does it function? Okay. So although this is obvious, it seemed to me that as psychotherapists, we have some concern about suffering, right? Responsibility in this territory. When people are suffering, they come to you. And they say, you're a warrior who knows everything about suffering. Can you swing your wisdom sword? I hope that there is no end of suffering.

[81:17]

People won't come anymore. This is a commercial institute. Trying to sell a defective product. Automobiles that break down in three months. You're too compassionate for that. You'd give them even a bigger pillow. Excuse me. So I'd like some direction at this point or questions about what you'd like to, anything you want to talk about or you'd like to see us do.

[82:43]

But I can say that in general my feeling is to start out at least... Oh, sorry. Yeah, but I'd like to start out at least at the beginning of the seminar. Looking with some care at suffering and causation. And the importance of the moment of death in Buddhism. Does anyone have something you'd like to bring up? Does this sound like a reasonably good plan? Please. Yesterday I wondered why you have said that the first point suffering doesn't include physical pain and I thought that there are realized people who does not feel physical pain and the third point, the end of suffering, I thought that it includes

[84:09]

physical pain, that when I am not identified with my ego, I can suffer and I do. Deutsch, bitte. Yeah. You speak much better than I do. Thank you. I was just surprised that Roshi didn't include the physical pain in the first point, that there are two different relationships, further away or you can feel closer to yourself. Well, your ego might not suffer anymore but your body still does. That means that I can see or feel that the body is suffering, but it doesn't matter.

[85:28]

Do I live in it? In German, please. Well, as I said yesterday, your relationship to physical pain can change. But two of the most famous living Buddhists are Thich Nhat Hanh and His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Aber zwei von den berühmtesten lebenden Buddhas, es ist der Thich Nhat Hanh und eine Heiligkeit der Dalai Lama. And they're often, they're both often, fairly often sick. Und beide sind ziemlich häufig krank. And they don't feel too well when they're sick. Und die fühlen sich nicht so gut, wenn sie krank sind. And we could say some of that's physical pain. Und wir können einiges davon auch körperliche Schmerzen nennen.

[86:30]

And I'm sure if I put a large nail down on both of their chairs, They would jump when they sat down. And they might turn to me and say, shut up. Maybe they wouldn't. They'd say, oh. Yeah. Yes, but you're... And it helps during sesshin, for instance. You know, even though the Buddha in the middle way gave up hardship and self-inflicted pain as a way of producing concentration... A little pain or danger is very concentrating. Hanging over the edge of a cliff on a rope is quite concentrating.

[87:50]

So what Zen has tried to do is create this sashin practice in which most of the pain is ego pain and discomfort. And existential pain. In other words, if you had a different view of existence, you wouldn't feel much pain. If you were settled in fundamental time, and not comparative time, you wouldn't have much problem with Sushi. What's the other time? Fundamental or? Okay. Or, you know, the simple example is if each of you had a small table in front of you,

[88:52]

And I asked you to put your arm on the table. And I asked you to leave it there for the next four hours. It would probably be fairly difficult for most of you. What's the problem? Your arm isn't being armed. It's your state of mind. If you went to sleep, there'd be no problem. So how can you generate a state of mind which isn't disturbed by where your arm is? So you actually, after a while in practice, you get into a state of mind where you could just be put down somewhere and left for half the day. But that's a state of mind that's not sleeping and not waking.

[90:14]

Ordinary waking. So, and Sashin practice is designed to induce that state of mind. And thus introduce you to that state of mind. And it's one of the minds free of suffering, rather free of suffering. Now, this might be useful to you, those of you who want to practice this. But again, it's not so useful to your clients.

[91:20]

That's just an interesting... What can we learn from Buddhism or this kind of practice? Which our clients are not going to understand, but yet still understanding it can be of some benefit to the clients. Okay, yeah. Okay. Is that what you see, state of mind? Is that the same category that Graf calls? They call it consciousness states.

[92:22]

Stan Graf? Yeah. Or others. They come with consciousness states. I don't know. I've known Stan for years, but I'm not a student of what he talks about. Yes. They speak a lot of altered or changed states of consciousness. Not only Stan Grof, but also others. Yeah, yeah. But you can just describe. Sure. Well, Stan, of course, comes out of his, I would say that his vision is rooted in a psychedelic experience. And mine in meditative experience.

[93:24]

And different is different, so there's some difference. I use consciousness only to mean a mind aware of the contents of consciousness. And I take that definition partly from the SCI part of the word conscious. Which means to cut into parts, to cut. So I mean consciousness is not, I would not call dreaming mind a conscious mind. I'd use conscious in the simple way a doctor in an accident would.

[94:47]

Is he conscious or is he in a coma? So we don't have many words for making these distinctions.

[94:52]

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