Well, this morning I want to talk about race relations, sometimes called racism. In the last few weeks, maybe the last month, this has been coming up as a subject for people. The board, our Zen Center board, wants to discuss it. And when I went to the teacher's conference at Spirit Rock a couple of weeks ago, it was a subject which I didn't have a chance to take part in. and I've been thinking a lot about it. So my talk, every time I focus on any aspect, my mind just freely associates and wanders into endless ways of thinking about it.

[01:26]

my talk is just going to be kind of rambling because it's the way my mind has been working on this subject. And so it's a kind of minefield, so I'm going to try and step in between the mines, but I might get an arm or a leg blown off, I don't know. Ever since I can remember, I always felt like I was a citizen of the world, even when I was a little kid. And I always felt that my world included the world, and that my world included all the races and all the nationalities in the world. And I felt very strongly about that.

[02:29]

I grew up being Jewish, but only culturally, sort of. when it came time to, when I was in my early 20s, to kind of look at that and see what that meant for me, I spent some time involved in being Jewish, spiritually. And then I remember about that time in my early 20s, when, this is in the 60s, early, yeah, the early 60s, when Israel was just beginning to flower and they wanted people to come from America to be citizens. And it was very tempting to do that.

[03:33]

I thought, gee, you know, you start out new and you have this group of people who you have this affinity with because they're the same race as you. And then you can feel very comfortable in your race. But I couldn't do that. I didn't realize that until just about an hour ago. But that, although it would have been very comfortable, maybe, to be in a country that was just your race, it was too comfortable. There was something about it that was too comfortable. I would be ignoring or betraying my world citizenry and I would just be dealing or kind of chauvinistically involved in this narrow world.

[04:41]

So I went on to become a Zen priest. For me, Buddhism, and especially our Zen practice, the whole basis of Zen practice is non-discrimination and inclusiveness. if we don't have a mind of non-discrimination and a mind of inclusiveness, it's not our practice. So when I hear sometimes there's racism in our Zen practice, I wonder about that. This word is a kind of scapegoat, I think, and we use it

[05:52]

to identify any little problem that we have between us, any kind of inappropriate problem of racial relationship between us. So I don't say that it doesn't exist. I won't say that. But I want to put it over here and talk about how people actually interact with each other without using such terms. There is a view that American Zen is composed of mostly middle-class, white, Anglo-Saxon, not racists, but folks. And when I heard that the first time, I thought, who's that?

[07:00]

My view has always been that on one end, there is the lily white, and on the other end of the spectrum is the dark, dark. And in between, they're all shades of dark and light. And one can say, well, I'm here, and someone else can say, well, I'm here, and someone else can say, well, I'm here. And to stereotype, I think, is a big mistake. Also, to think of it as a line with two ends is also a mistake. Ideally, it's a circle with the dark and the light. coming together. If that circle isn't complete, then it's not our practice. And in a circle, there's no beginning or end, and there's no class distinction.

[08:09]

So my understanding, my view of the Zen Center is that there is a mixture of race, a mixture of class, a mixture of education, a mixture of old and young and so forth. and it's not any one predominating thing. So I don't want to talk about this subject. Racism exists in the world, no doubt about it. So many of the problems of the world are based on it, so there's no denying that. but I just want to talk about what happens within the Zen Center. So, if you really look at it carefully, you see that people tend to feel somewhat safe within their own

[09:33]

either racial identity or class identity, and people have affinities for people on the same, I don't want to say level, but who have the same propensities. And to be able to expand out and accept people who are different in various ways than you are, is not always easy. So we do have bumping and clashing and fear, you know. A lot of fear in people that's not even necessarily recognized. And also kind of clumsiness in relating. Some people can relate to everybody easily, and other people have real trouble relating to anybody who's a little bit different than they are.

[10:35]

So, and there's also shyness, and there's also saying inappropriate things because you don't know, you don't realize what you're saying. And what may be acceptable to one person is not acceptable to somebody else. But this is not racism, this is simply human relations. And it's interesting about our fears, you know. I was walking my dog down the street yesterday or the day before And he's a big black dog, you know, but very gentle. His name is Bravo, but his name should be Ferdinand, because all he wants to do is smell the flowers, you know. His love is in every flower.

[11:40]

And I said, come on, come on. But there was this Chinese man walking down the street, and he had a panic attack just seeing the dog. just had a panic attack. No reason in the world for him to be scared, but for some reason he was, I mean, he was really panicked and I had to calm him down. It's just a dog, you know, not doing anything, just being himself, not even interested. So, it's kind of an example of the fears that we have that are unfounded, really. There's some reason why they come up, but we may have some traumatic experience in our background that causes that. And then it's triggered when we see something. The reaction is triggered.

[12:41]

It has nothing to do with So then there's the problem of why does somebody act this way to me, you know? I think mostly we relate to people on the basis of personality. I truly believe that we mostly relate to people, especially in this milieu, we relate to people on the basis of personality more than on the basis of race. Race is there, you know, there are Chinese people, there are Japanese people, there are people who have Latino people, you know, the French and the Italians are also Latin. So there's a lot of Latin ethnicity within the Sangha. I lost my train of thought.

[13:49]

Personality. We relate to people, thank you, more according to their personality. The racial thing is there, you know, but it's not in the foreground. It's mostly just a part of things, you know. but people who are well marginalized feel that if there is some problem it's due to the race, even though it may be due to personality. I may be a very abrasive person and so people shun me or they don't talk to me or they speak to me rudely or something, but I may think that's because I'm green and from Mars. But actually, it's based mostly on personality, although it could be based on race.

[14:57]

You don't know. So there's a kind of, sometimes a question, you know? Why is that? So, these are problems. But they're problems that can be dealt with. They're problems that can be dealt with without bringing in this big term, racism, you know? And then there's also class. Some people are wealthy, so to speak, have nice big homes and expensive cars. And some people have almost nothing. And you can't say which is best, really. people with a lot of money, big homes, expensive cars, have also big problems.

[16:05]

And sometimes people who have not much money, a humble abode, and so forth, are very happy. Actually, a Zen student's home is here. Whether you're wealthy or or have very little, this is where your home is. So we shouldn't be envious or feel some lack. No need to feel that. I hate to say this, but we're only poor because we feel poor. And we're only wealthy because we feel wealthy. And wealth has nothing to do with material things. And being poor has nothing to do with material things. Although, you know, it's important that people should have something to eat and have someplace to stay before they can practice.

[17:17]

So practice, you know, is a little bit exclusionary. This is another factor. A lot of people, because of race, feel that even though they're welcomed, they may not feel welcome. I really feel that the existing community that mostly people in the middle of that spectrum make a big effort to address the problem of racial integration. I think that there's a big consciousness of it and a good effort to look at that as a problem.

[18:23]

But the problem exists on both sides. So this is my minefield. The problem is not just a problem for one side. There are no two sides. As soon as you say there's this side and that side, you've already created a problem. There are many, many sides. And we bring a problem with us when we come to practice. Practice itself is a problem, a barrier. So, for a person who really feels racial discrimination, it's a kind of double barrier. The barrier of, will I be accepted on the basis of my race?

[19:26]

and the barrier of practice itself, which means to let go of discriminating mind and let go of self-centeredness and ego. So that's a kind of double barrier. Everyone, most people feel intimidated when they come to practice in some way. Can I do this? It's kind of foreign to me. They have all this Asian ritual, kind of Japanese-y. It's foreign to my way of doing things. Not only that, but I have to give up something. I have to let go of my self-centeredness and that's universal with everybody, but if you have the problem of not being accepted anyway, it's a double problem and hard to feel your way in because in Zen practice

[20:38]

On the one hand, there's the welcoming hand, and on the other hand, there's the barrier hand. So it's a kind of, yes, you're welcome here, but you have to find your way in. You're totally welcome, but you have to work to find your way in and not let anything really stop you. So that's the kind of problem that is a big problem. If you go to a church, people welcome you with open arms. And they say there's no barrier. But it's not exactly a church. Zen practice is not exactly a church. It's a practice. And giving yourself to the practice, devoting yourself to the practice, is not so easy.

[22:04]

But The problems don't exist from one side only, and relationship problems don't exist from one side only. It takes two sides, two at least, to have a problem. The problem of acceptance and rejection exists on both sides, even though I don't want to talk about two sides. It exists on both sides. So it's not just a problem for one side. It's a problem for both sides. And as soon as you include yourself into the practice, as a part of the practice, then your influence, your presence influences the practice, and it's your practice.

[23:24]

It's not me and the practice. As long as you think it's me and the practice, then you've created that line. As soon as you objectify the practice or objectify yourself, then you've created this line of me and them. It's not me and them. It's us. So when you enter the practice, you have to include yourself. One of my thoughts is, if there was no racial problem at all, just as I suppose, suppose there was absolutely no racial problem at all, no discrimination, then what would be the barriers?

[24:28]

I think it's important to look at that. people say, well, how come there's not more racial diversity? That's a good question. But there is a lot of racial diversity. Not a lot. I mean, there is, but there are certain racial quotas that are not included. But why is that? I'm not going to answer that question, but there's more than one reason. There are many reasons why that is. So I think that the existing Sangha

[25:37]

kind of looks at itself and says, well, what am I doing to inhibit that? And then there's a lot of blame. Well, it's because I'm this way and I'm that way, and it's good for the existing saga to examine itself in that way. What am I doing that inhibits? more of a racial equality or participation. But those people who feel that there is that, and feel that they can't enter the sangha because of that, also have to look at why that is from their side. And that's the side that's not examined, I think, for me.

[26:41]

You know, there's a kind of perception of white, middle class, Anglo-Saxon sangha. And why should everybody think that that's the best way of life, the best society. What's so good about that society? Well, until... We can't change that society overnight, really. Little by little, the integrated society will emerge. But the integrated society can only emerge when people put themselves on the line to integrate.

[27:48]

See, there's a problem with it, not just from one side. If I am an African American, which I am happy to be, and I come into white middle-class Anglo-Saxon sangha, what am I leaving behind? Am I being loyal to my roots, to the big tension there. How can I be, how can I, you know, am I leaving behind my roots in order to take on this society? There's a little disloyalty there.

[29:02]

So it's a double bind. But it has to happen to be able to join this society, so to speak, integrate with this society without feeling that you're deserting your own society. Because this is a classless society. Zen society really is a classless society, ideally. And it includes everyone who wants to be included, who will actually make an effort to be included. Some people are a mixture of race.

[30:13]

And so sometimes there's a problem of which identity am I? I remember Lonnie Guineer during the Clinton years. She was half Jewish and half black. And he wanted to have her be some high position in the government. And there was this big opposition. And she identified herself mostly as black, but also she was Jewish. And Nowadays, being Jewish is in favor, but when I was a kid, it was not in favor. So, if I'm half Jewish and half black, I have to identify myself as being black because it's not such a, I can't desert that part of my life.

[31:32]

I remember when I was a kid, I was born in 1929, and tomorrow is my birthday, and that was the year of the Great Depression. And my mother said, I brought on the depression. But being Jewish in those years was not something that people favored. Nowadays, you know, you see people walking to the synagogue with their little brown hats on and they're bears and they're very happy and they're walking down the street, you know, and you didn't do that when I was a kid. Matter of fact, if somebody asked you what your racial background was, you always had to think twice and then say, I'm Jewish.

[32:48]

Because you were passing for white. So I never considered myself really white. Nowadays, people say, what is the race? And I say, Semitic, which is true. It's not white. I don't know what white is, actually. There is no white. Well, there is, but maybe if you're Irish, you're white. But that's okay. I have many white friends. Some of my best friends are white Irish. this country is really a wonderful place because all the races and all the backgrounds are here.

[34:12]

And slowly, slowly, there's more and more integration. And we're in that, in the cement mixer integration, you know. And if we don't all participate in it, it won't happen well. So everybody has to participate in it and not back out and say, you have to do your work. Someone said to me, it's your work. You guys have to do the work. It's your work. And I bought into that for a little while. They're like, wait a minute, you know, it's not just my work, it's also your work. Everybody has to participate in it and not think that it's somebody else's work.

[35:17]

So when we feel some hurt in some way by some thoughtless act of somebody or some misunderstanding or even some direct slur, we should be able to deal with it and not let it put us off Or, you know, every time something like that happens, it's actually an opportunity. As we say in Zen practice, there are only opportunities. Whatever happens is an opportunity. If we know how to deal with that, that's our practice.

[36:42]

Our practice is to be able to deal with whatever happens. And to let go of self-centeredness. And to make an effort to get beyond our stereotyping To me, what's really wonderful is to be able to see as much integration as possible. And when I mean integration, I don't mean everybody the same. I mean that we can all practice together being who we are. And nothing makes me happier than to see the great variety of not just race and ethnicity and class, actually,

[37:58]

I don't care what class you are. I accept all the classes, high class, low class, middle class. I was always low class. All through the depression, we never had any money. I never had any money when I was a kid, except my mother would give me 25 cents to take the bus to school and I would hitchhike and spend the money. That was the only spending money I had. all my life as a kid, and once a week for a while I would do the laundry for a dollar. So I learned how to live without any money. I was very low class, but I didn't feel low class. I never felt poor. My parents always had a house, and they always had good food. But my mother told me that she used to send me to the butcher for a bone for the dog, and she put it in the soup.

[39:12]

But then, I also had all these friends that lived in the hills in Hollywood when I was a kid. And they had big houses and lots of money and everything. And it didn't impress me. I was totally unimpressed somehow. So I always felt kind of classless. But I'm not judging anybody's class. I think we're all welcome here, no matter what our class, what our race. A while ago, we put up a sign that said that we're totally non-discriminating, and we accept everybody's racial background, and so on. And somebody said to me, well, that's just a sign. But that sign came from our heart. It's not just a sign. So, when we put that up, we really meant it.

[40:24]

So anyway, that's some of my rambling. Anybody have a question? Yeah. So, Chen, I come from a couple of different... I'm both Irish, a pale white part, and some Indian tribes. Sometimes I am concerned by the thought of focusing on integration. Because I see our practices not picking and choosing. And if we're focusing on integration, then we're picking and choosing, saying, isn't it like, oh, this group's not here, so maybe we need to, you know, it's like we're choosing. And, you know, like we need to, an eighth of a slice of everything. I see what you're saying, yeah. And somehow that seems like picking and choosing.

[41:31]

Well, it doesn't seem like picking and choosing to me. It seems more like quota, you know, which I agree with, you know. I don't want to encourage any particular group of people to practice. I don't see it as discriminating exactly, but I see it may be catering or trying to make something look good. I don't want to try to make it look good. I would rather people come because that's what they want to do. It's the only way we can practice anyway. you can't force your wife or your husband or your mother or your friend to come and to practice. It has self-motivation. So without encouraging, over-encouraging some particular group to be open to everyone.

[42:36]

At the same time, Some people need some kind of encouragement to know that they are welcome. But I don't think that's discriminating. Less of a question, but maybe some thoughts. I saw which has a very large constituency of African-Americans. And I think that part of how that happened has to do with the way that leadership is constructed in this organization over time. And it was actually quite interesting to read about this group that I had known about and to really think about

[43:43]

Well, what are they doing? Why is it that this organization has such a very large constituency of working class and poor people practicing? It's an interesting question. I agree with you. I don't think there's anything neutral or monolithic about the notion It's really worth thinking about what seems to be neutral to maybe a lot of people from European or Asian backgrounds who seem to come together in spaces like this. Buddhism comes from Asia. Of course, all of our religions come from someplace else.

[44:49]

But in America, the Asians are not so interested in it. It's old-fashioned, and Christianity is on the rise. But it's very hard for people to come to this practice because you have to do this. You know? I think that's the biggest problem. This is what you have to do. And it's not a matter of race or anything, it's just a matter of what a person has an affinity for. But at the same time, people do feel barriers, even though they will do this. And we have to keep examining the problem, looking at our own unseen, stuff we don't see about ourselves.

[45:53]

But also, encouraging the other people who feel reluctant to look at why they're reluctant or why they, aside from what I'm doing, aside from what I'm doing, what's your problem? Who cares? I'm here to sit, and if people don't like me being here, it doesn't matter. Well, you have to have that confidence. So not everybody has that confidence. That's one of the problems.

[46:57]

And you came from L.A. where you already had some practice, right? So you kind of knew what that was. but it's really a barrier. Practice itself is a barrier. We have made, in this place, a big effort to be open to people. But in San Francisco Zen Center, I remember people say, every time I go in there, I always get this cold shoulder feeling. And I think, why is that? I never felt that way. But people do. I remember in the 70s, yeah, when there were a lot of groups, you know, who were just welcoming people, you know, and dressing up in suits and ties, you know, and welcome people to their est and so forth.

[48:03]

I remember the Zen Center was being very, in comparison, very austere, you know, and you had to kind of struggle a little bit to find your way. I always thought about the contrast. Anyway, I want to be as open to people as possible to give them the opportunity to find out if this is what they want to do or not. And for the people not to be a barrier, it's enough for the practice to be a barrier. I don't want the people to be a barrier as well. Yeah. I think that it's very hard when someone has been their life experience from when they were a very young child has been to experience the kind of racial racism that exists outside.

[49:11]

And to walk into a place without other people like them, their life experience tells them that that's what they're going to find. And I don't think that we can ignore that or put that aside or tell people that they ought because that is an experience when parents have to tell children from when they're very small, when you go to school, people will call you names. I think that's an incredible, painful, awful experience that people can't just forget, and that we can't. It's not their business to forget it. That's true, I agree. It's part of their work to forget it, their life's work, but I don't think that we as a group can say, We don't have to do anything or we shouldn't be somehow aware enough or have some dialogue around it so that we understand how we can better... I hope you don't think that I said that we shouldn't do our work.

[50:15]

We should do our work. And I also feel a lot of respect for those people who from those racial backgrounds who have stayed here and actually rooted in the practice I just have nothing but great respect for those people because their practice is what will encourage other people's practice, others in that situation to practice. Yeah. Anne? I think that you really hit it on the head very early. in your Dharma talk when you said that not making discriminations is the heart of our practice.

[51:28]

And so all of us have to practice and the heart of that practice is not It sounds simple, but we have to think about it all the time. The idea of non-discrimination is supported by all the scientific studies that show that from a biological and genetic basis there is no such thing as race. There's obviously different skin colors and backgrounds. Well, yeah, science is finally catching up. Rebecca? Well, there's just a couple of things that come to mind.

[52:33]

One, it wasn't until maybe ten years ago that I found out that white was a legal thing that happened. White was what? was a legal thing that was happening quite along with setting up the rules for moving the westward movement. And it became a law at that time that white people there were suddenly a classification called white, and that the, that I'm fuzzy about this now, but that the exception to being able to own land, you could, black people couldn't in certain areas, Indian people could, with the exception of the descendants of

[53:41]

One, the descendants of Pocahontas. They were excluded. They were okay. Anyway, it's just, when you think about that over how we've accepted that term of white, without even thinking about it as a racial term, little weird. And I was, as we talked, one of my daughters is sitting this weekend with a group that basically is excluding me because it is catering to people of color at this point. And I think they're, you know, maybe a useful thing. But I've suffered from living in a very mixed racially family going down through generations, of being called by my own son one time, the great white slug.

[54:54]

But I don't know. I do sometimes, because I've worked most of my working life in a group that's been totally racially integrated. And sometimes I do look around and wonder, where are those people I taught? Where are all of those kids of so many different colors and from so many different countries in the world? So, anyway. Okay, it's time to quit. Chinese and Japanese were not allowed to be citizens until just fairly recently. Also, I have to say that, you know, I think there's a lot of Native American people have Native American parts.

[56:06]

blood and we never even see that because it doesn't appear to us, but there are Native American blood all over the place. but there's no race, there's only one race, but they're people from different places that have various characteristics, they can't be denied, but they're all wonderful. This is why I say we should celebrate this and not, instead of being afraid of it, So I like to look at the upside of celebration rather than the downside or what's the problem. But you have to look at both sides. But I favor the upside.

[57:05]

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