Good morning, good morning all my Dharma sisters. I'd like to start by thanking everybody for coming and helping us create this opportunity to commune with each other when you could be out in the sun and commuting with flowers and sunshine and so many other things. So thank you so much. I have to tell you that I had a whole talk prepared and then yesterday we had the Buddha's birthday ceremony and a little talk and you know as it started I thought oh that's I started out thinking oh that's too bad that I didn't remember what you know that I could have done. I could have prepared a talk that was somehow vaguely even it related to Buddha's birthday and then by the end of Alan's talk I was

[01:04]

really regretting that I hadn't and almost feeling like I should change my talk but I felt that it was too late and but I kept having that feeling and yesterday I guess I went to the place that I don't know how I think that a lot of you were probably there I went to the same place Katie Guimon did with her question which was hearing the story of the Buddha's birth thinking wow this is a really sad story between you know kind of you maybe between the lines or not even between the lines so I was just pretty torn inside kind of like that feeling like when you have your foot on one boat another foot on another boat and the boats are like moving away from each other and you had some point and even as early as this morning I was like no I'm going back to my prepared talk and then I couldn't I just couldn't settle there so I'm thinking of this as

[02:09]

kind of like Buddha's life the sad parts or coloring in the sad parts or something and I hope that I hope that this is going to work for people here and even people who weren't on the call I mean on the on the at the event yesterday so anyway here we go and just to just to start I'd like us to just remember that we really don't know for sure very much at all about what actually happened back then 2,500 years ago and you know there's there's some historical record and some theories and things but so I just think that that's an important thing to keep in mind like whatever story we tell we're really just we're making it up and trying to feel or I've been trying to feel my way into the story from different people's perspectives from the different players

[03:14]

perspectives so the I think that it was I understand and again people can correct me later if I'm wrong but that it was kind of traditional for a woman to go to her own clan or family when she was had a bit when she was going to have a baby and it seems clearly she miscalculated the timing on that and or the birth started early the the labor started earlier than they expected because she was on route and you know they fill in all this stuff about the beautiful trees and stuff but basically she's on route to her own family's clan and perhaps her mother you know to help her through this the birth and then she goes into labor and I think it seems like it must have been a very difficult labor again I don't know where you go when you hear he was born from her side

[04:21]

and she died eight days later but what makes sense to me is that it was some kind of you know cesarean birth of some kind and so I think it's a very sad it's a very sad story of his birth and I think that of course he was mothered I'm sure he had close mothering from his his mother's sister his aunt Mahapajapati or Pajapati at that time and I can I can imagine he was well mothered and you know eight days old you know I'm sure he could imprint on her and have secure attachment and everything but also the other factor is that the his mother was the wife of his father and the sister of his aunt so it's a set there is a sad

[05:25]

grieving thing going on to me in this beginning days of his life and I just feel like maybe just spending some time honoring these other aspects and I'm trying to in any way I'm not trying to detract from what he did for all of us and his gifts and everything but just you know in the interest of feeling our way into the story you know so my impression or my the story I go to is that he was a very sensitive boy and there it was an intense scene with you know he was going to be he was a clan his father was a clan leader his cousin was jealous of him so there was and he I picture him as not being you know if

[06:29]

there's if there's some kind of gender spectrum I picture him as not being far out there on the masculinity scale you know like a sensitive boy and man and young man and was much more you know the story is he saved the swan that his cousin shot and we have various stories of his tenderheartedness and and there was a lot of pressure on him a lot of pressure on him to toe the line in this clan to become you know marry and have a child that a son that would also become you know like to pass this thing on and I my feeling is you know just just in the last couple days like he never wanted any of it that's where I'm going right now is he he never wanted any of that it didn't resonate for him it was full of

[07:31]

probably little you know palace intrigue and jealousy and status people with status people without status and all of that stuff and I just think that he was never really into it he tried to and he did everything to fulfill what they were asking him to do and he he did get married and you know when I think of his wife's name is Yasodhara and again I meant to mention yesterday was my daughter's last day of her visit and I decided not to do spend a bunch of time doing research that I might have done to flesh out some of these stories and so others of you may know more and may be able to share but when I think of Yasodhara where I go is I I'm related to and married to people who have struggled with depression so I that's what I my feeling is that he struggled with

[08:35]

depression based on not feeling like he was where he was supposed to be and not wanting to do what he was supposed to do and I could imagine what that would feel like for him I can imagine what that would feel like for him I can imagine I can really imagine what that would it could have been like for her I know what it's like not to be able to feel like you know you can help somebody or your love can make a difference or things along those lines and probably his father was just hoping he would keep you know and we've seen parents do this I just hope I hope he eventually gets on board with this you know I just hope he he does you know so I'm not going to retell the story of the four visions because I'm

[09:41]

telling the story from another angle we all and we all know that but it's I think that he my feeling is that he was never totally bought into it and it was harder it got harder and harder to do it and finally he when he had accomplished this thing where he'd had a kid a child to pass on the family name and genes or whatever that was like where he drew the line and said I I really can't do this now I've done everything you wanted me to do and now I'm doing what I've always wanted to do which was leave this situation this scene this family scene this scene of power struggles and you know competitive cousins who want to kill me and all this kind of stuff and you know I could you could see he turned to spiritual practices and you could sort of see and he tried everything is what I go with it he tried everything to feel better to feel better and eventually he

[10:53]

did find a way to feel better a way to understand reality that was was healing was healing for him and that's the whole other story of that we know so then and you know so I just there's a lot of family energy in his story that usually doesn't come out so his his his one of his most loyal disciples was his cousin Ananda and I think of them as probably kind of halfway maybe between a brother and a cousin very close very close cousins and I kind of think of this this is a little different from how I talked about his childhood but I kind of think of the Buddha as the thinking type to Ananda's feeling type in a way

[11:57]

Ananda is very loyal very devoted and and in a few different sutras you get the feeling of him just sort of adding adding the feeling level in at different times when the Buddha is sort of a little bit pedantic and laying out these lists and things you know so eventually and then the other factor that's playing in here is that his his clan was was wiped out in a war or I don't know if it wasn't that everybody was I thought but they lost the war and whatever happens with that I don't know all the details but and you know there's a lot of stories in in even in the sutras that show that the time was rife with struggle inter in struggle within clans and struggle between clans there's a there's a set of stories about a king and a queen and then the son kills the

[13:02]

father and they're all in this they all come to the Buddha as a teacher you know the son is he can't get over his guilt for killing his father and he comes to the Buddha so there's a sense of you know strife and struggle and the difficulties of of the social keeping the social status keeping the clan together having the clan survive and gain territory from another clan and so there was a lot of it was kind of Shakespearean is the way I think about it you know and that you know the so eventually one of the things one of the things that happens is that there's a lot of widows left based on this war that happened and not only and so there's some [...] shock young widows and also people who were married to people who became monks and are left

[14:12]

in that way left alone in that way and then I'm sure there were also many women who also didn't really buy into I mean you know in every culture I think there's always some women who don't want to do that thing they don't want to get married and have kids for whatever reason you know and so or or they have tragedies as Karen as we talked about with in Karen's talk they had terrible tragedies where all their children were killed or you know family members killed so so a collection of women formed around Mahapajapati the Buddhist I mean I think of her as his mother honestly mother slash aunt because from eight days old you know you raise someone from eight days old I don't think you call that person an aunt but you know maybe you do mother slash aunt around her formed a group of these women somehow and you know they say 500 but I think

[15:20]

500 is a word for a whole bunch of people in that system so they formed around her and studied his teachings and wanted to experience this relief and this transcendence and this understanding and enlightenment and and follow his teaching in the way that the monks were they wanted to be nuns or monks themselves they wanted to and there and at this point at the and again we don't really know what actually happened maybe none of this happened and maybe he let women in from the beginning but later generations as we know women get written out of things so let's just go along with the story that and which is you know the third sad story to me or or something third or fourth sad story she is leading this group of women who want to practice for whatever reason are

[16:28]

left high and dry or left their situations and want to take up the holy life and she goes to the Buddha who says no and when I try to feel my way into the Buddha I think oh god that's just going to complicate things no end you know like I feel like he just couldn't deal with the complications that were gonna ensue if women joined his order because he has all these young men and they're trying to be celibate and just in a million different ways so I and we know that he threw off caste and he threw off social status so we know he was capable of throwing off things but this seems to have been a bridge too far for him he just could not he could not go along with that idea and she goes away

[17:33]

and comes back and asked him again if I'm remembering the story right and you can later on you can correct me if I'm wrong and then I think she goes to Ananda before the third time so she asked him twice he says no and then the third time she goes to Ananda who is a close relative again right we're talking about family we're talking about his mother coming to him and him saying no to her and then she goes and asks the nephew or some close relative of hers to intercede because he's close to the Buddha and he is a feeling type and feels and can feel a deeper situation here rather than thinking oh that is

[18:34]

just going to make things so complicated you know that's my image is like oh god that's just gonna make things so complicated so he comes and he there's and I think there's a couple things he says but the one that has stuck with everybody down through history is that he says isn't it true that women are just as equally capable of attaining enlightenment as men and the Buddha says yes it is and then he says well how can you justify how can you do this how can you not let these women do it and do this join this order or create an order of nuns or whatever it is you know and you know again he grudgingly he grudgingly agrees to do it to go to support them and the way then the grudging part of it

[19:36]

was that they made a bunch of special rules or this never happened and this was made up later so to justify the special rules right I mean let's just remember before we take it all too seriously that we don't really know what actually happened and what the dynamic with him and his mother really was so I'm telling it one way you could tell it another way we don't know we will never know so you know I think we can feel feelings obviously some parts of this happened and obviously everyone's life has a lot of sadness in it so there was a lot of sadness that we don't often hear about in the stories of the Buddha but eventually he did allow this to happen allowed the nuns to and even before but but I meant to say before this thing with the nuns he had women lay students he had in the sutras there are stories of women coming and getting teachings

[20:41]

from him Queens and various people he did relate to women and he did teach women but he didn't have this this full ordination project with the many many rules that they were you know their practices many many many many many lifestyle requirements and changes that they made so and we do have we do have a book the first Buddhist women there's a couple translations and I'm not going to get into the complications of that but there are some poems from many many many of these women about their own enlightenment in in studying with Mahapajapati and becoming teachers themselves you know and other people studying with them and so there was a very thriving living practice among these women which you

[21:46]

know was the outcome of that sort of tense and painful story you know so those are that's those are my thoughts about coloring in the sadness a little bit so coloring in the sad parts and I wonder how I'm really wondering now how this is landing on people so and you know we have a we have a custom at women's sessions that we don't record the discussion so I that's what we that's what Karen and I decided we would continue

[22:27]

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