We've been using the word buddha-activity and another word that's kind of a synonym Wisdom is the light of wisdom or just wisdom, unsurpassed wisdom, perfect wisdom. So wisdom is an activity, I'm proposing wisdom is an activity, it's not just like, yeah, so it's like an understanding that's an activity and in the act, and so part of the activity of wisdom or awakened activity or buddha-activity is to free living beings from delusion so

[01:00]

they may live in peace and harmony. Before we are free of our deluded consciousness, and our consciousness is normally deluded, our work to realize peace and freedom, harmony, justice, this kind of work is fraught by the and rigidities of our conscious mind, which are supported by an unconscious mind and a body which also have their rigidities too. Now this buddha-activity, we're already living in it, I'm proposing to you, we're already living in it.

[02:16]

We have this expression, I take refuge in buddha or I go for refuge in buddha, I go for refuge in buddha-activity. And the word refuge is really nice, an English word, it has the etymology of refuge, which means to fly back. So it has the meaning of returning, but also like a sanctuary or a shelter, and buddha-activity is a sanctuary, it is a shelter. It shelters us from war and strife and injustice and misery. That's shelter? Did you say that's shelter?

[03:20]

Shelter, yeah, so like a bird refuge is kind of like a safe place for birds. It's also a place birds can go back to, like if they're scared of getting hunted, they can go back to the bird refuge. So, except the thing about the buddha-activity is we never really leave it, we just, our thinking makes it so, makes it that we've left it. But really we haven't left, we just think we've left, because of the way we think. And so we, the buddha-activity is not clinging to all the things going on in our consciousness, or our unconscious, or our body.

[04:24]

But starting with the consciousness, it doesn't cling to the discriminations going on. And because we are almost constantly, or we tend to be very frequently involved in discrimination, and not only involved in it, but kind of focused on it, we get kind of tight, or you could use the image, our discrimination, our mind becomes like hard ice, frozen in discriminating and discriminations. And that makes it, kind of it hinders or, you know, forestalls the realization of where we already are. But this hard, strong habit of discrimination, under the auspices of warm, careful, compassionate observation, the hardness of it can melt away.

[05:43]

And there's still discriminations, but there isn't clinging to them. And so, as Sukharshi said, I think he said this, non-discrimination is not, not discriminating. You could put in brackets, non-discriminating wisdom is not, not discriminating. It's studying everything. So, your mind discriminates, you know, like between, I don't know, good and evil, good and bad, delusion and enlightenment, Republican and Democrat, male and female, existence and non-existence. And ordinary mind is like constantly doing that kind of thing.

[06:45]

Once people hear about non-discriminating wisdom, they sometimes think, well, what we should do is get rid of the discriminations and create a mind that doesn't have any thoughts. So then there wouldn't be any attachment to the thoughts. Or non-discriminating wisdom would be no discriminations. But that's not what's meant. But some people have thought so, and then some other people have criticized them, and so on. So, if we can let go of the discriminations, not get rid of them, but let go of them, let them be soft and flowing, they can do their job without alienating us from the wisdom in which, the Buddha wisdom in which we actually live.

[07:53]

Yeah. By the way, I just want to say again, I think I said it last time, but cruelty is not Buddha's wisdom. However, Buddha's wisdom engages cruelty and liberates it, so that there can be peace. Kindness is also not Buddha's activity. Of course it's kind, but it's not kindness. Of course it's kind, but it's not kindness. It's kind in the sense that it does the greatest kindness, which liberates beings from attaching to kindness.

[09:06]

And of course attaching to cruelty. But kindness, which is a wonderful thing, gets all squished and distorted and defiled when we cling to it. It gets strangled when we cling to it. Just like a baby, you know, that we love so much. If we cling to it, we can strangle it. And if we don't cling to it, and it survives our care, if our care isn't too oppressive, it can grow up to be a teenager, and then, you know, there's no way. All things are calling for compassion, and compassion does not cling. However, the process of compassion has a danger of slipping into attaching to what you're caring for.

[10:15]

There's a danger that way. Also there's a danger of getting depressed. Slipping off compassion into depression sometimes happens. That's not compassion. That's falling into a pit while you're trying to practice compassion. Okay, so we have our consciousness, which has a strong tendency. It also has this tendency to try to understand wisdom with discriminations. So, part of the way we come to understand wisdom is by having conversations about the teachings, about wisdom. But in the conversations, the wisdom will not be arrived at by the discriminations that we use in the conversation. When we have a conversation, we are making discriminations between different words.

[11:18]

And if we're warm and careful and compassionate in many ways of compassion, with the discriminations that are involved with the words, the ice melts away. And we can use the words and the discriminations in such a way that they melt away and let us realize the wisdom in which we're already living. So, for example, when Suzuki Roshi said, non-discrimination is studying everything, that would mean that you studied Republicans with as much carefulness and warmth as you just studied Democrats. That you could wake up studying Republicans and you could wake up studying Democrats. You could wake up, I don't know what, appreciating one party more than you appreciate the other one.

[12:25]

You could be kind to those different levels of appreciation. And there too, the hardness around that discrimination, by treating both of them, by studying both of them. So, don't just study this, study everything. That's what non-discrimination would do. The light doesn't shine like over there, but not over here. It goes everywhere. However, it's unhindered because of the mind not being stuck on discriminations. Another thing, besides discriminations won't reach this place where we already are, striving also won't reach the place where we already are.

[13:26]

However, where you already are, you can strive. It doesn't take you away from where you are, but it seems like it does. So, striving, again, can alienate you from where you already are. But you're still where you are, it's just that you've alienated. Because you're seeking something other than just this is. So, I think that's maybe enough to start with. Maybe? Yeah, possibly. Am I speaking loudly enough? Patrick?

[14:28]

There are notions of discrimination if people have opinions about things. There's also compassion. Different people draw their lines about how compassionate, or different people draw lines about compassion. What is compassionate? And at a certain point, some of us see things as being, that's not compassionate enough. Compassion is beyond compassion. And I'll give you an example of my neighborhood. I live in San Francisco, and there's a lot of drug use, open drug use by different people. And there's been this huge debate in San Francisco about something called safe injection sites, where people can go in and they can inject. And there's a lot of real strong opinions about whether you should have these so-called safe injection sites or not. And I was strongly opposed to it. Because I didn't think it was compassionate.

[15:29]

We have another reason. Well, this is really compassionate? I say, well, no, this is really enabling. It's beyond compassion. It's not really helpful. And I've been trying to balance, and I don't get angry with these people that think that it's a good idea. And I've been trying to balance, you know, how do I discern, or how do we discern the greater volume of compassion is with respect to our own discriminating mind and opinions? And what is it beyond compassion? And, you know, it's become too permissive. Does that make sense? Yeah. There's lots of context, but that's just one example. That's an example, yeah. So, Buddha's wisdom could be working with these issues that you're just mentioning, but it would do so without being stuck on your view or anybody else's view.

[16:32]

Or your view that, yeah, your view that you're, you have your view, plus you might have a collateral view, which is that you think your view is pretty good. So you have two views. One is this is my view, and it just happens to be right. What can I say? So, anyway, Buddha activity works with those views in such a way as to liberate your consciousness and enable you to use your views in a way that would help other peoples be free of their consciousness. You still might have the same view, but now you can use it in a liberating way, for example. And you may say, you may rather have your view win than liberate people from their minds. We can work with that too, but I'm just saying

[17:37]

that I could have a view and I could work with it in such a way that there's liberation from my view. And then I can use my view in a way that liberates other people from their views, and their views might actually be the opposite of mine. And if people have different views from mine, not only different, but there's wrong views, of course I want to liberate people from their wrong views. Let me relieve you of your wrong views, hand them over. If I become free of my right views, I can free other people of their wrong views. And their right views. So then we got these people got the wrong views, these people have the right views, and everybody's free. And when free people who have different views come together,

[18:42]

they can come together peacefully and treat each other justly. But in order to treat each other justly, we need to be compassionate to our discriminations about self and other. And then we can use our view of self and other as a conversation piece for a liberating conversation. So you don't have to change your opinion in order to benefit everybody in San Francisco. But to really help people, and not to mention that people are drug addicts, you can help them too, by becoming free of your idea of them. And help them become free of their idea of themselves. Once they're free of their idea of themselves, they'll become free of drug use. They'll become free of it.

[19:42]

They may continue to use drugs, I don't know, but they will become free. They will no longer be addictive. But, you know, probably they'll actually stop. Because they'll see, they'll be able to see. They'll see. Because they're not... When I attach to my views, I can't see. When I let go of my views, suddenly I see. Yes? Yes. In the physical world, society in which we live, people do make choices, are we going to have safe injection sites or not? In our neighborhood. And that affects a lot of people. So, yes, you can be liberated from holding on to the idea

[20:46]

that my view is the right view. Can you hear him okay? And being compassionate about that. But at the end of the day, unless you just decide, you know, freeing everybody in the sense you're talking about, is sort of how we get to solving the drug problem, as you just said. I mean, it seems like you're saying that you should abstain from taking a view of what you do in the world right now. I don't think you mean to say that. I can't hear what you're saying that way. At the end of the day, you still have to go with making a distinction between what you think is the better way. Well, you could say at the end of the day, which actually at the beginning of the day you were doing that too. Maybe you're doing it with a different mindset. Maybe you're doing it with a different attitude. Yeah, right. So at the beginning of the day you're doing it. At the end of the day, maybe, you're not free of your ideas. So I just want to mention that you did say

[21:49]

that you thought maybe I was saying that you were free of your views. So you thought maybe someone might think that's what I was saying. What I'm saying is that you've got your views, you've got your views, you've got your views, okay? Now, if all of us were free of our views, let's say I have my views too and I'm free of my views. Then we have a meeting between four people who are free of their views about what to do. We can invite Patrick too. About what to do about this injection center. And we can have a conversation and then maybe we'll decide to have one or maybe we'll decide not to have one. Let's say we decide not to have one.

[22:51]

And that's what Patrick wanted. So you might think, well, so Patrick's happy. And maybe Maggie didn't, maybe Maggie did want to have one, so maybe she's not. And maybe you did, so maybe you're not. And maybe I was not sure. That was my view. And so, yeah, so maybe I'm not. But, if all four of us let go of our views, we would be friends. And the decision which was made was different from some of our values or wishes, but we're friends. And, we're free and we're at peace with each other. But the decision did get made. Like, a few years ago we had an election

[23:53]

and a man named Barack Obama got elected. And, I remember at the, at the, what do you call it, the inauguration, yeah. Somebody said, a peaceful transfer of power. An African American got to be president and nobody blew up the, blew up the thing. It was a peaceful transfer, it was a big transfer of power. Power got transferred all over the place. But it was peaceful. Now maybe it's not as peaceful as it could be, but it was kind of peaceful. And then got another person elected and that could have blown up too. You know? We could have a civil war. So we got problems, right? And we could have, on top of that, we could have a civil war. Or, under these circumstances,

[24:57]

we might be able to work in such a way as to bring peace to this country under these adjective, adjective, adjective conditions. So, so, and here's an example of, in my case, which I often tell, when I was Abbot of Zen Center, they were going to remodel a Founders Hall at Tassajara. Did you hear that story? So, not remodel it, repair it, because the building was made kind of like on a, by Japanese temple construction principles. And the outside was mud, not stucco, but mud, mixed with, you know, straw, that kind of mud. But the formula for the mud was the formula for Japan. And so it didn't work at Tassajara,

[26:00]

which is very dry. So the mud started to crack and fall off the building. And so someone had an idea. So we had to repair it. We wanted to repair it. And so somebody had the idea, pull off the, is it lath? Pull off the lath and then put in plywood and spray it with stucco. Somebody had that idea. And I, they consulted me because I had that position and I said, okay. And somebody else came and said, you know, I think another way to do it would be to use mud and not take the lath structure off. Use mud, but change, there's another kind of formula you can put in, which will make it more enduring in the Tassajara dryness. Plus the person my, the person I was ordained with was the person who built it. And I think he would like

[27:01]

that kind of surface better. So I thought, oh, I think maybe the second way is better. And, yeah. And then that view, the first view was kind of soft, you know, like, oh yeah. But I wasn't really adhering to it. So, I was kind of at peace with doing it the first way they suggested. There wasn't a big kind of thing on there like, this is the way to do it. It was a discrimination, but it was soft. And I was relaxed and calm. And I didn't hate people who wanted to do it another way. There was no turbulence in my mind or in the valley due to me. Because I was sitting in a position of power. So I had a second idea and my mind kind of started to fix on it. Even though it's hot

[28:02]

and dry, my mind was like ice. And, and I told one of the people who was involved in the project, I told him that I thought the second way was better. But because of the charge that had developed on this second view as being the better one, not so much right, but better, I noticed that when I told the person that, he almost fell down, got knocked over by the, by the charge. I realized I should disqualify myself from the, from the decision-making process about whether we should have injection centers or not. Because I was like, I was like laying waste to the situation. So, and also I, so I could see that I should be disqualified because I was not contributing to the welfare of the world.

[29:05]

A decision process was going on and I was coming in with all this power and righteousness and ping! Dan, I hope your friend can come back in the room. I don't mind if she's coughing. She, yeah. Okay. All right. Okay. I just want to tell the end of the story. Not the end, the next section of the story was after I kind of like backed off from saying anything because I could feel that my thought had turned into like, I don't know what, that was not helping the process. I let the other people decide who weren't so uptight about this. I went to the meditation hall and I noticed my mind was turbulent. I wasn't so much thinking about that project, but my mind had been really set into a storm, I think in relationship to that.

[30:09]

And I noticed it and I was embarrassed because I'm the abbot of the temple and my mind's like a storm. I was supposed to be calm, but I wasn't because of this attachment, which made me kind of unhelpful. But I knew I was unhelpful so I went and sat and then this thing came to me, came up in my mind, clearly observe, which is an instruction from the beginning of a book I study a lot. And when that came up, my mind instantly was calm, I let go of my attachment to my views and that was that. And I still didn't get involved in the decision making and they did it the way I suggested. But if they hadn't, I would have accepted that. I could have accepted that. So,

[31:11]

if at the beginning I had more, I had realized more wisdom, I would have been able at the beginning just to say I think the second way is best and had a conversation that didn't blow people apart or create division in the community. But this kind of wisdom is to help us have conversations that come to fruition not as this decision or that decision or electing this guy and then electing this guy. That happens, to have peace here and peace here even though we have this to have peace. And for some other people even though we have this to have peace. If some people and hopefully many people are doing this work of cultivating this Buddha activity. So I'm not saying we don't participate in the process. I'm talking about how to participate in a way

[32:13]

to help others, these others and those others. These who we agree with and these who we don't. This mind, this Buddha activity helps us do justice to those we disagree with. Without this wisdom we don't do justice even to those we agree with. We don't do justice to anybody because our mind basically doesn't do justice to other people without this training. E.J.? So, I heard you say that if we are able to let go of the view we can be free of view and therefore potentially free of all means. Also, I heard you say that it can be a problem to not be wholeheartedly

[33:19]

in a view or wholeheartedly attached. That's the point. If you wholeheartedly take care of your views you won't be attached. So I'm wondering what the difference might be or if there is a difference between being able to wholeheartedly let go of the view they're the same. Be wholeheartedly of a view you're not attached to it. You have nothing left, you have nothing extra you get to the point where the view is just a view. There's no way to attach to it. Would you be aware?

[34:21]

You would be aware but you wouldn't necessarily be thinking I have a view. There might be just a view without you added on to it. You would be invested in a view. No, you wouldn't be invested. When you wholeheartedly take care of something you're not invested in it. Putting yourself in it is not wholeheartedly taking care of it. When you wholeheartedly take care of something you let it be what it is. You do justice to it and then you don't put yourself in it or outside of it. Whatever you're taking care of and letting it be what it is by taking care of it you don't actually know

[35:22]

what that is. I think admitting that you don't know what it is is in the process of learning how to wholeheartedly take care of it. Like if I'm taking care of you I'll take care of you better if I realize I don't know who you are. That you're far beyond my idea of you. But I do have an idea of you. So I work with that idea like you know somebody says well E.J. wants to talk to you so I say E.J. oh yeah so I think of E.J. and I use that idea to come have a meeting with you. But I also maybe even before I see you I realize E.J. isn't just my idea by which I locate him. E.J. isn't just what I think E.J. is. That will help me be wholehearted with you and that will help you tell me if you think it's necessary that I'm not what you think I am but not that I'm not that you're not

[36:24]

what I think you are. You may not find that necessary because you maybe can tell that I do think you're something and I'm not limited by that because I let go of that and I'm open to you being much more than I can ever think of you are. And you feel well cared for when somebody isn't just dealing with you on their own terms. They're willing to listen to you and have a conversation with you and give up their idea of who you are. I think we we often appreciate when people will let go of their idea of but sometimes people are not that way. Sometimes we think somebody is the cat's meow and they want us to hold on to that. But that's an immature person who will later learn that somebody holds on to the idea of cat's meow will suffocate them and will be possessive of them. So, as... Pardon? Yeah, or if they're the worst.

[37:26]

Of course if somebody thinks that somebody is the worst that person would like them not to believe that. Usually. I think that's really what a mature person would want. You would not want somebody to believe what they think you are even though they think you're just terrific. You're okay with you're okay with them going and continuing thinking that but you'd rather not have them attached to it because then you could like tell them the truth of who you are. You wouldn't you wouldn't be afraid of losing their view of you. You know you most want them to know you rather than to think you're great when you're mature. And yeah so yes, Elizabeth? How to withdraw?

[38:32]

By warmly carefully investigating it. And if you notice any what do you call it impulses to withdraw do the same with those because withdrawing from withdrawing from projections is a little bit not warm. So it's like not grab them not push them away but study them closely and carefully and the withdrawal or the letting go will naturally happen. the thing the the clinging will melt of itself. You don't have to say that. But if you do say that

[39:36]

we can work with that too. We can work with that too. One time I I often tell the story one time I was talking to someone and I and I found myself saying I do not believe what I think you are. I do not believe what I think you are. Which was kind of like saying Rev, do not believe what you think she is because that would not be good. And things you know and she could tell I was trying not to believe what I thought she was and she kind of thought yeah whatever that is I think it would be good if you didn't. And yeah we got through that time and nobody got hurt. The projection process is going to keep going on. And if we practice with it we will realize

[40:36]

that the projection process is going on in the midst of freeing all beings including freeing the projection process so they can dwell in peace. There was a bunch of hands. Justin and Michael. You are not you are not trying to trade it for someone else's. Yeah you are not you are not right. You are just letting it being open to receiving about a revolution and not trying to control the outcome or whatever they can put the user about or knowing that you can't control the outcome or whatever they can put the user about but you can give your feedback and receive feedback and hope that you will be understood without trying to

[41:37]

control the outcome unless we should be okay with whatever the outcome is. Did you say should be okay? I'm not sure. I would say that yeah you basically you are kind of on the right track there. Michael. So I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or if I want to keep this discussion kind of coming up or this is a good time to bring solutions that inside my head or You are welcome to bring it. So when we talk about discernment in ultimate non-discernment I can't see those No, no, no, no, no. Discernment Discernment is different than discrimination. Okay. Discrimination So discriminating discriminating mind

[42:38]

Yes. and a non-discriminating mind. So I can almost imagine that they're on the spectrum. They're not. So my delusion is that they are. I recognize I believe that I recognize that this is part of my delusion that they are on the spectrum. Yeah. Discerning and this kind of discriminating and non-discriminating mind. I imagine conceptualizations that they are on the spectrum. Okay. And then I have to create a relationship between them so that they can talk to each other. Yeah. Then I guess what I learned tonight was that part of that is to let go of that idea of the spectrum of these various parts of me is that it's still me. I. Right? I am holding this idea of a discriminating mind that says I holding this idea

[43:40]

that there is a non-discriminating mind so that the spectrum that I have in my head is being held up by this inner part that says me, [...] I, [...] I'm that part. So when I heard you say to let go of that I my spectrum kind of falls apart and I'm kind of sitting there in a void a little bit. I feel like it's a somewhat of a void and I put my dream my imaginary space of the discriminating non-discriminating have fallen away and then I'm kind of letting go of this idea that I Michael held these ideas in my head and so to me sometimes that's a scary place. I feel like I'm letting go of something that's kind of like I'm not sure how close how far it's going to fall like I'm not sure like in a in a sense of security or something like that I don't know and that I get kind of

[44:40]

stuck a little bit that I first came up with this idea that it kind of seems like it needs a level that's really enough that it deserves a level that's high and then looks about different when I let go so I just wanted to kind of share that this is kind of something that I'm working with. Well you did say I'm stuck a little bit and when you're stuck and there's a discussion about becoming unstuck then one of the reactions then this can be a reaction to the possibility of becoming unstuck and the reaction could be kind of like something that is maybe not not good well yeah unknown and maybe bad yeah

[45:41]

so yeah but actually the unstuck with these discriminations yeah it's liberating but as you think about it because we're stuck we think what would happen if I wasn't stuck that's why we one of the bad things that might happen without some instruction is you might just throw the spectrum out the window throw the spectrum out the window or throw the self out the window yeah right so but then yeah so that's that's a scary kind of reaction to the idea of letting go of your some part of these images

[46:42]

letting go of some of these discriminations could be turned over into no discriminations and no discriminations would be kind of like no self not like no self in the Buddhist sense but like there isn't a self and that could be kind of like no consciousness because consciousness has discriminations and self so when the consciousness hears about letting go of the discriminations and then thinks well that would also be letting go of the self it can then go into a reactivity which is thinking that the whole consciousness will be dissolved which is not impossible but then you basically just be unconscious for a little while but the problem is that you maybe like rather than take the chance of being unconscious for a little while and just let

[47:43]

that happen which would kill you you resist letting go because another part of you says that would be a disaster and so I thought that that would come up so thank you for bringing that side up Jeff kind of brought it up in the sense that looks like people can't participate in a normal social conversation if they would let go of their views but you can have a conversation Buddha activity can have lots of views and be working with them with people without attaching to any of them and without getting rid of consciousness but when you first hear about this letting go of holding on you might think wouldn't be possible to have normal social relationships and actually you might lose consciousness and again you might lose consciousness but only it's possible but only for a little while and hopefully you're not standing on a cliff when you do this one of my friends

[48:44]

had a boy when the boy was little the boy was talking to him about God and the boy said what's God and my friend said well he's like pretty much everything and the little boy says well is he like you is he like me is he like this room is it like this chair and it just kept going on like that and then the little boy passed out and my friend called 911 anyway it worked out okay he the little boy went for it just opened up to like and one can pass out under those circumstances but then you wake up and you're back to this thing of the normal consciousness this practicing compassion with the normal consciousness it isn't

[49:45]

you letting go or the discriminations letting go they're already let go and you just allow that and then you find oh still got me got the discriminations but there's no attachment and I and the discriminations are free together yes it's part of the work of letting go the question to the idea like the conversation inside the self with the idea so anyway this is this discrimination could be you could you could ask your discriminations questions you could take your discrimination shopping with you you know I'm

[50:47]

talking about you got a discrimination about good and evil and you and you're you're working on it and you just take it with you everywhere like taking care of a little little kid and but you know so having a conversation with your with your discriminations with your thoughts is part of the process of becoming freed that's what I was asking so if I am in that conversation and therefore allow myself to not be attached but interested and connected to what's happening and be part of the CI then to me it feels like that would be less of that soothing away disappearing that that feeling that I allow

[51:48]

myself to be quiet enough to feel that I not afraid of being questioned you might not feel as afraid but you might feel more afraid and if you feel more afraid you do the same thing with the fear fear is a discrimination too so you do the same thing with the fear to have a conversation to try to reduce fear is not a wholehearted conversation to have a conversation to try to increase fear is also not wholehearted but sometimes in conversations fear comes up so that's calling for compassion that's part of the conversation this is Buddha activity and so to imagine that Buddha activity would be like wiping away consciousness well it doesn't have to be that way

[52:48]

and usually it isn't but if we did wipe away consciousness there would be Buddha activity too but there would be no consciousness of it well actually there never is consciousness of it but sometimes there's no consciousness of it and you're conscious and sometimes there's no consciousness of it and you're not conscious but it's going on whether anybody's conscious of it or not I mean conscious of it means you're thinking about it but that's not it so we cannot our discriminating consciousness cannot reach this activity but when it tries we come up with various stories about what might happen if we did try or what is happening why we do try and one of the things that might happen when we do try is we might become afraid certainly we might become afraid of losing

[53:49]

control because again the conversation is not wholehearted conversation is not trying to control the relationship with the discrimination yes so this discussion about different levels of layers of consciousness and the story about a little boy getting his mind blown and passing out makes me wonder about something I was hearing a bunch of people talk about a bunch of people were talking about the use of psychedelic neurologism in relation to specifically which is then practice and enlightenment awakening consciousness and I wonder what do you think about the potential for that being supportive or

[54:49]

being distracting or beneficial or what do you think? Did you hear that? Okay. So it's kind of a big topic but I'll just do a little bit here, okay? Somebody else, not you, somebody else could ask me what is the role of eating rice in Zen practice? Because if you eat rice, particularly if you're hungry, if you eat rice it will change your blood sugar level and you'll get a little bit you'll have a different mind than before you ate it. Because the chemistry of your body and mind will change if you eat the rice, right? But we don't usually eat rice so that we can work on what's happening when we eat rice. We eat rice because we're hungry and then we

[55:50]

deal with what happens when we eat it. Between what two? No, I eat the rice because I'm hungry and then I study that mind and I study the mind before but I don't eat the rice so I can study my mind. I don't eat the rice so I have a new thing to study. No, maybe it is the same. Right now I'm studying this mind. I don't drink water so that I'll have something different to study. Yeah, but I get one because I'm

[56:50]

drinking water so I change. But I didn't drink the water so I'd have something different to study than the way I am now. That's the problem with the drugs. Well, yeah, that would be fine. You could also eat rice not to get a different mind. However, you do get a different mind. No matter what. Everything you do, your mind changes. But Zen practice doesn't do things to get a different mind. It just studies whatever comes up in relationship to what's appropriate. So, in this case, what's appropriate about the drug? So, if you weren't trying to get another mind, then, I guess, what would your motivation for taking the drug be? Still?

[57:53]

I mean, I know that's what used to happen at the Grateful Dead. I mean, we're like, you know, I'm not hungry and my friends are eating rice, and they say, why don't you have some too? I might say, okay, it's possible, but I wouldn't be eating the rice, because I wanted to see what's going to happen if I eat the rice. I would just beat the rice because my friends said, why don't you have some too? And I might feel like, okay, but I also might say to my friends, you know, I'm full, I just ate. And they might say, okay. But to eat food to get something is antithetical to opening to the light of,

[59:03]

Buddha activity. The way of opening to the light of Buddha activity is to practice generosity, not try to get something. And if it turned out that you thought it would be a gift to eat rice, that would be the way to eat rice. That would be the best way to eat rice. So when I think of one of my friends, who I know does a lot of drugs, he goes through life with this sense of wonder. Kind of like, I wonder what would happen if I ate rice. I wonder what would happen if I took those drugs. I wonder what would happen if I took these drugs. I wonder what would happen if I stand up for three days straight. I wonder what would happen if, so he is kind of doing everything in life to not necessarily get a difference in situation, but with a sense of wonder and exploration of what might happen. Yeah. And you know, so maybe he's not really asking too much whether he's going for eating rice or if he's going to stand up for three days straight. He's just, everything's got that sense of...

[60:12]

Yeah, yeah. Well, good for him. And also it reminded me of, in Suzuki Roshi met Shogun Trungpa in 1970. I was, just happened to be at Tassajara at the time that Trungpa Rinpoche came to visit Tassajara and he wanted to meet Suzuki Roshi. Do you know Trungpa? He's a noted, a very important Tibetan teacher. He's Tibetan and he's a Buddhist teacher and he's very important in the American scene, Buddhist scene. And he wanted to meet Suzuki Roshi, who was at Tassajara. So he came down and yeah, and they met and I think they really loved each other. And yeah, and then it came to Suzuki Roshi's attention

[61:17]

that Trungpa Rinpoche drank a lot. I don't know what, but he drank a lot, a lot of alcohol. And people asked Suzuki Roshi, what about that? And Suzuki Roshi said, well, usually we don't do that. But in his case, I don't know what to say. In his case what? In this case, I don't know what to say. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't judgmental about it or he didn't even, he wasn't judgmental, but he also didn't really know how to judge it. He wasn't sure about it. Usually we don't do that, he said. So, but maybe in your friend's case, Suzuki Roshi would say, well, usually we don't do it, but I don't know what to say in this case. But in my own case, I can look to see, am I trying to get something?

[62:19]

And if I am, then I can practice with that. But to go ahead and do the thing and skip over that I'm trying to get something, that's what's, that's calling for compassion right now. Rev's trying to get something. Well, we got a problem here. This is, something's calling for some compassion. If this thing gets compassion, it will let go of trying to get something. And it still might eat rice or drink alcohol, if, you know, but it might do it from not trying to get anything. It's trying to get something. That's the, what's going on there? Why don't you work with what you've got? And if you are trying to get something, we'll work with that. Eric? From what I've heard in this conversation, I think one view that people bring is that we might not try to get something in therapy

[63:26]

or in various practices that feel like they, feel deep structures that we can't usually access. But if there are certain containers and certain rituals that help keep the integrity of the process alive, some people contend that the psychedelics can heal in ways that eating rice wouldn't. We don't necessarily have to bring a hidden mind to the situation, but I better trust that this practice, which has been going on for a long time, yeah, reveals aspects of the self that we can practice with that normally aren't available to the conscious mind. So I don't know that it's always about trying to get something in a way that includes this place,

[64:29]

but it is a practice. Yeah, I don't know either. Maybe his friend's not trying to get anything, I don't know. But all I'm saying is that we're talking, in talking about how to set people free so they can be at peace, one of the main things to set them free from is what is preventing, to some extent, them being free. And one of the main things that prevents people from being free is attachment to discriminations. And one of the main discriminations that people attach to is getting something. So seeking something other than this is a major obstacle to opening to Buddha activity. But if you feel like, well, okay, so I wanna promote people giving up, trying to seek something, and we're gonna build a Zen center for that. So we have this building, which we're building to help people have a place to go

[65:33]

to let go of trying to get something. Or we're gonna do a ritual to help people let go. But the ritual's not trying to get something, it's trying to help people who don't understand yet that there's nothing to get. So we're gonna make a ritual so they understand that, but the ritual, we're not setting up the ritual to get something. But if we're setting up a ritual to help people get free of trying to get something, and we're doing it to get something, then we're kind of, it's contraindicated. It's not setting a good example to try to get people together, to try to get them to become enlightened. But that's a big problem in Buddhism is that we already have this Buddha activity, we have to be very careful not to go someplace else to get it. So seeking and discrimination are what I'm talking about now

[66:33]

as key factors in how to open to the Buddha activity. Elena? I have a problem with the word discrimination. We all do. Not only the word. I was wondering if it could be substituted or used as judgments. Judgment's okay, like the judgment, discrimination between good and bad, judgment of good and bad, yeah, yeah. So yeah, so it's not that we get rid of judgment, it's that we practice in such a way that we're not attached to judgment because attachment to judgment, or, you know, and one of the judgments is gain and loss, attachment to it impedes realization. Yes? I have what I often think of as states of mind, not fixed states, they're able to change,

[67:36]

but anyway, broadly, like let's say a state of mind and mind, they're pretty common, able to hear what you're saying and also able to help people with a little bit of wisdom, whatever. And then I have states of mind where I feel like my brain is being chopped up and I'm agitated and it's painful. So you were suggesting out of fear, if somebody has fear or something that feels like an unpleasant experience, have a wholehearted conversation with it? Mm-hmm. And I was just wanting to get a little more light on that. So one question is, who's having the conversation? Is somebody having the conversation? And also, am I, I think I'm trying to get something.

[68:38]

I'm trying to get that painful experience to let go. So do you have any advice about how to work with these states of mind? Yeah. Quite a bit. But it's not 50-50. I'll be with you if I ever finish talking to her. I'm sorry. So anyway, I heard a story about some kind of like difficult state of mind and then there was a wish to get something and we came up with an association with that. You were talking about having a conversation with it as you were advising me to have a conversation with fear? Okay, why don't we do that? Should we do a conversation with fear? Or with some painful state of mind?

[69:39]

Okay, a conversation with a painful state of mind. Okay, the conversation with a painful state of mind. The first thing in conversation, the kind of conversation I'm talking about, the first thing in the conversation is a welcoming. Open. Welcoming. Welcoming. That's the basic thing, is welcoming. That's the beginning. And also. Yeah. [...] 9-1-1. [...] That's the beginning of the conversation, is welcoming the thing that, you know, the painful situation. Welcoming it is the beginning. If we don't welcome it, the conversation is gonna have a hard time getting started, even.

[70:40]

Next. Be careful of it. In other words, be careful of what you think about it, what you say about it, and what you gesture towards it. Be careful. Do not try to kill it. We have painkillers? You can take a painkiller. You can take a painkiller without trying to kill the pain. It's possible. Don't lie about it. Don't misuse sexuality in relationship to it. Don't try to get another conversation than this one. I should say, don't try to get another conversation piece. The conversation piece is a painful state of mind, body. It's a painful state. The first, after you've welcomed it, then, then, don't try to get another thing to talk about.

[71:44]

Don't try to get another conversation piece. It's the conversation piece. It's the pain. So don't try to, don't kill it. Don't try to get another one. Do work with this one. Now we're getting into the ethics of a wholehearted conversation. Next, practice patience with it. And patience, if you remind me, we can go into extensive detail on patience next week. But basically, patience is, if you're gonna have a conversation with something or somebody, it's really appropriate to be right there at that moment with them. Not to be thinking, how much longer is this conversation gonna go on? How long has this conversation been going on? You know? That's, that happens.

[72:46]

But that's not being wholehearted about it. When you're wholehearted about it, you let go of how long it's been going on. You're just there. You're there for this. This is your life. And you're not thinking about how long it's gonna go on or how long it's been going on. You're just there. And it's painful, maybe. But you're there. You're really there. And that's what's being called for. Generosity, welcoming, being careful and gentle and tender. Not pushing away or trying to get something else and being in the present. That's a brief answer to how to get into the conversation with painful states of body and mind. And also, by the way, pleasant ones. Same. Same. Welcome them. Don't push pleasant states away. Welcome them. And be careful of them.

[73:47]

Because careful of them, you might try to get more of them. And that might be really bad. Really mean. Somebody gives you something, you try to give more. It's not compassionate to try to get. Compassion is to give and be careful of whatever. And that takes us to open up what's already going on, which is Buddha activity. It's already here. We're already where we wanna be. We're already doing. We're already involved in it. But we have to practice in various ways that are really challenging with all of our difficulties in order to wake up to it. That's what we're doing here. That's what this conversation is here. We're trying to wake up to reality. And reality is really wonderful.

[74:49]

It's a wonderful thing. So let's keep working on it, shall we?

[74:55]

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