Good morning. I'm glad we're able to have Zoom. I would rather be in the beautiful Berkeley Zen Center Zendo that I have sat in so many times. So it's good to see so many familiar faces. And today I'd like to talk a little while and save some time for engagement Q&A, questions, and we'll do that when I'm done. I guess you've raised hands. I don't know. Okay. Yes. All right. So I've been doing a lot of Dharma talks in the last year. I kind of have to watch my email every day because I get like five or six requests a week

[01:00]

and I'm starting to say no. And so you guys are sliding in on the tip of the burnout. So I have to do a home temple, right? So anyway, I thought I'd talk a little bit about boundlessness and maybe this notion that there might be a fear of it. So the fear of boundlessness. And of course, we might not have a definition of what boundlessness is, but maybe when we hear the word or think about it, or when we were introduced to such a thing, it might have made you wonder, made you stand away from it, want to come to it without even knowing it. If you're the type that like to dwell in the unknown and to discover,

[02:07]

you might've come try to like get into the boundlessness. That is talked about by all of the Zen teachers, Soto and I think Renzai as well, talk about boundlessness. And my teacher, Zen K Blanche Hartman talked about it quite a bit. So I started reflecting on it and for myself and realized that most of the time of my life, it's gotten better, of course, since I've practiced, but a lot of times there is a restriction that I live in. Everything's kind of rigid and restricted. I have my ideas. I have my perceptions. I have what I like and what I don't like. And maybe you're the same way. And so most of us live pretty much in our restricted

[03:09]

sense of life, a very restrictive sense of life. And so that's why I thought I'd bring this topic forward because we're definitely in a world right now in which we can have many opinions and ideas about what's going on. We can have fear of this great global death with the pandemic, this moving out of people, leaving the world as we speak, as I speak. So I thought I'd share with you, and I don't know how many of you have been able to get this book, The Deepest Peace. Actually, I was telling someone, I think this is the book I enjoy the most reading myself because when I read the other books, I kind of put them down right away because I find myself editing it. This book, I don't feel that. I don't feel that

[04:12]

sense of editing. And so I felt like I was writing from a place that wasn't only what I believe or an opinion or what I think my concepts are or precepts, but they're still in there. They're there, but it's how I presented them and how they came through me. And so I wanted to share with you a piece. It's on page 100. If you have the book, you don't have to read it. I want to share some parts of it with you right now as an anchor to this talk. All right. And I'd like you to just listen and maybe sense for yourself whether or not there is a fear of boundlessness and that kind of habit of retracting to a very restricted way of living life. Okay. All right. Okay. It's on page 100. It's called Falling Into Canyons, The Fear of Boundlessness.

[05:26]

And I'm very excited to read this one. I haven't read it out loud to very many groups because there's a part in it that I think only Zen people will understand, people who practice Zen. And so here we go. The desert is boundless. I can feel the fear when I walk alone in the open. It feels like there's nothing in the vastness. There's nothing to hide behind or hold onto. For this same reason, I always feared going to the Grand Canyon. It was no different than my fear of swimming in the ocean. In my small mind, something much larger than me was capable of snatching life. I could fall into the canyon or drown in the sea. I feared the pull of boundlessness. One summer, I decided it was time to meet the boundlessness that giveth and taketh

[06:31]

life. In essence, to meet fear. So I was joined by a beloved. We spent the night in Williams, Arizona, and took off early the next morning to travel the south ridge of the canyon. As I'd hoped, a few folks are there when we arrive. We pull over to park. I step out of the car. The wind sucks at my breath. I walk slowly to an overlook. I turn the corner and the open gap with the staggering mountainsides and nowhere to go but down took my final breath. I go limp, trying hard not to faint. My knees tremble and buckle. I'm giving in to that destiny of falling into the canyon. Except there's no fear. I want to fall in. I have in fact leaped. Head first. Wings spread.

[07:42]

I'm a condor soaring in the canyon. I'm being held in the wind that greets me at the gateway. I see the ancient natives at home on the cliffs across from me. In the end, I'm still standing on this side, looking down and out in awe. Since that time, I've stepped off the 100-foot pole, as they say in Zen. I've fallen into many canyons in my life and landed on my back, unable to jump onto my feet right away. Each time while lying on the ground for days, serenity crawled up and out from inside. On the ground, I realized there's no need to fear the open. The work after a fall into a vast canyon is to breathe, to remember creeks rolling over stones,

[08:50]

and to consider that stepping off and going into the vastness, there may be peace. How far is a 100-foot leap? A student asked in a ceremony in which as head student, I'm invited to answer questions. There's nothing to be no thinking, just spontaneous messages that arise from sitting with silence. Some might say we are meant to speak the voice of spirit or ancestors. After all, we've been sitting for 90 days, minding such wisdom. I answered the student's question, how far and wide is it for you? The student repeats the question, but you show, how far is a 100-foot leap?

[09:58]

I pause and look the student in the eye. I don't know. How far is it? The student asked the question again with great frustration. How far is a 100-foot leap? I answer, only you'll know when you leap. I then pound the staff I'm holding on the piece of the wood at my feet, driving the inquiry into the earth and giving it over from our small minds to the vastness from which the question arrived. The pounding allows the inquiry to stand still so that it can evolve into wisdom, so that it can be suspended in the vastness and not be weighed down by the mind. How far does one fall when stepping off a 100-foot pole?

[11:07]

Better yet, how do we step off a 100-foot pole without falling? Okay, that's only a part of it. So, I love that exchange I had as a Shuso. It remembered it very well, and going back and forth, and the person still being frustrated in the end. And I haven't read that one out loud to very many places because I think they might not really understand maybe completely what the experience is like of being a Shuso, or jumping off a 100-foot pole, or leaping off one. And so, I would like to invite you in your heart and mind to consider what it would look like

[12:09]

in your life if you were to take a leap from that place you sit, that place of concepts, opinions, and ideas, and how you see the world, to take a leap off of that and consider that part, that rigid part as this 100 feet, maybe even higher, to jump off of it and see how you feel, and where you think you might land, and whether or not there's a feeling inside you that would make you feel. There's no peace in that, and there's no serenity in that. And like I said, in the piece for me, serenity kind of crawls out when we're on the ground. It's already inside. And so, often we want that serenity and peace to come from legislation,

[13:15]

to come from a movement, to come from a teacher, a spiritual teacher, to come from any place but ourselves. And we're afraid of that part, like, oh, if it comes from me, then nothing's going to happen. It's not going to be very effective in the world. That feels kind of self-indulgent, you know, you might think that way. But what I found in my years is that the suffering that is available in my own life, and in people around me, is the place in which the peace and serenity comes from, right where I am. So, to be in that place, I have to take a leap. I have to stand aside. I have to stand and wait for a moment of what I believe and what I am thinking and feeling.

[14:18]

Coming into Zen practice was that experience for me, to step aside, to take a leap. I took a leap, you know, coming into the practice. And especially a practice where it really can't be explained before you participate. You can't have it all explained. You know, can you explain that chant to me? What does it say? What are you doing? Why are you, you know, it's just too many questions, right? And that's because there is this ceremonial aspect to Zen, and ritual aspect to it, that is often misunderstood by those who come into practice Zen. I think most people are, in the world, especially as mindfulness becomes very much popular, that you come and you sit for a minute, and then here comes Buddha TV, that's the Dharma talk,

[15:26]

Buddha TV, and then you're done. And so, when that doesn't happen, you know, are you waiting all day for the talk, you know, and it's Zen session, or, you know, everything else is going on, you know, the rituals, the ceremonies, the bowing, the chanting is all going on, but you're waiting for the talk. And it's really the talk is, I would say, is not, it's not it. The talk, hopefully, is a guide. So when I would hear the talks, you know, as a person, it's great for people who are beginners, like I was, to hear and listen. But if it's Zen teachings, oftentimes, it seems a little bit too abstract. It's not grounded, you know, enough. So I expected the ground to be presented to me before I took the leap. I said, I need to know where I'm leaping to, where I'm going here. And, but eventually, I got that the ground was right

[16:32]

here. You know, that this Earth, I'm glad I'm near Earth 1 too, this Earth is a very powerful place to be, and can also be that foundation in which I jump off into, you know, I take the leap into. So to take the leap into this vast Earth here, definitely was the beginning of me understanding the larger Earth that is often talked about in Zen practice. So when I wrote the book, The Deepest Peace, there was an effort to not write from the I, [...] even though I'm speaking that way today. And it was very difficult, because, you know, things didn't make sense to me. Eventually, I gave that manuscript to the publisher, and they were like,

[17:32]

where's the I? There's no I's in there. And I told them what I was doing and why I wrote it. And they said, well, can you put a few more I's back in there? But, you know, so there's no I's or adjectives. And the purpose was not to say, to be egoless or anything like that. But a way of actually allowing the reader or anybody who encountered the words to be in the reading themselves, instead of reading about me, reading, period, you know, like it to create an experience like that, where the reader can just come in and feel the experience without me describing it to them or telling them how to feel it. And so that that part to me was a practice of not, I wouldn't say I, for boundless as I'm having

[18:35]

a boundless experience, but hopefully to open the door to one. Because if I say I'm having a boundless experience, then I'm not having a boundless experience, because I've decided what that looks like. But if I, if there's a way in which from what I from the teachings that I have heard, to practice those things of stepping aside, not having an opinion and idea description, to just leap into something and discover it again, and again, and again, then it opens to the possibility of an experience of boundlessness. Now, I still may not be able to name that. And that that's the good thing. Because if, if I get to the end, as we know, if you get to the end of the spiritual path, then where have you gotten? We all know this. So I think in today's world right now, that that there is a fear of that fear of entry, the boundlessness of life. And so

[19:44]

even though you might not know what it is, just basically letting go for a moment so that something else comes in, not so that we have peace, and not so that everyone begins to behave in the way you need them to behave in order to have peace. But that in the stepping aside in the leaping, or whatever you want to call it for yourself, there's a there's some a space for something else to come into one's life, into the lives of everyone around you. And so I am conscious of the time again, I'm going to look over to Blake. How many how many minutes do I have? Because I want to have q&a. Excuse me. Send you you have plenty of time, we usually begin q&a between 1050 and 11 o'clock. And it's 1037 now. So you can speak for 12 minutes or 20 minutes, or however long you'd like.

[20:54]

Okay. All right. All right. Thank you. So I'm hoping when I some of the things I'm saying are resonating, and that there's a way that you can see that your own thinking is a boundary, you know, just just a thought is a boundary itself. And I often don't spend a whole lot of time when I do talks of quoting the Buddha, quoting teachers necessarily. And I used to, and I found that many people will spend the energy trying to understand it. So that means I'm speaking from my experience in my practice. And that that can be pretty dangerous, right? All right. If it's not

[21:57]

quite, you know, on a line with the teachings, but I have gotten a lot of thumbs up. So from other teachers to for me to continue in this way that I do, because I think it's important now to speak from this place without all the quotes necessarily, that to trust that the Buddha is in this book for me, otherwise, I wouldn't write it, or that the experience of Zen is in this book. And I always wait for someone to call me and say, Zenju, no, that wasn't it. And I haven't gotten a call yet, but maybe people are afraid to call me up and say that I don't think so. So I really am encouraging at this time is for people to look at their perceptions and conceptions and to see if the boundary of them can be moved from where you have placed it,

[23:04]

where your thoughts can be moved. Even at this moment, what thoughts do you have that you came in with today to sit and thoughts you're having right now in the moment that can be changed, not even changed, just moving that boundary of the perception, you know, or just moving it and not filling it in. Oh, I know Zenju Earth Limmanuel. I remember when she was just Earth Limmanuel, you know, or whatever, you know, and just kind of just moving that and then saying, I know her, I know her, I know her way out there. And then just seeing where you're left with this person that's speaking to you right now and that you're willing to sit and listen to and engage. And so I think it's important to, you know, take some of this reflection, action and reflection

[24:08]

in our lives so that we can see where the boundaries are, where we can move them, and whether or not we have a fear of boundlessness, you know, and whether or not we have, you know, our fantasy, our mind says, oh, I think, I think if I let go of that, and I remember that when I first started practicing, if I let go of that, then, oh, what kind of person am I going to be? Who am I going to be? And then even like, adding a name Zenju onto, well, who's that? You know, who is Zenju? And there was a little bit of a struggle around that. Because I always felt that if someone names you, you should use it. And so Blanche and I had a struggle around that one, because I wanted to use Ekai, which is my first name, Ekai, Zenju. And she said, no, don't, you don't use Ekai, that's, that's informal. And I

[25:14]

said, oh, okay. You know, she said, it has to be Zenju. So I said, no, I didn't want to use Zenju, I wanted Ekai, because Ekai had an E, like earthland, you see how superficial? I had an E, like earthland. And so I still would have E-M, you know, still be like holding on. And then she heard me at the dinner table, lunch table at San Francisco Zen Center. And they said, someone said, oh, what is your new Dharma name? And I said, Ekai, really loud, happy. And Blanche looked at me, she said, and she reprimands me right in the moment, and says, I told you not to use that name. And I was like, oh, she's really serious about it. And so I dropped it, I stopped using it right away. And then it took me about three years, three or four years. And someone came to me actually was a medicine person who had seen

[26:18]

my name Zenju somewhere. And they said, that's your name Zenju? And it means complete tenderness, they had read it, I don't know, it had been written someplace. And I said, yes, they said, you need to use that name. And that's how I came to use the name Zenju. Well, Zenju threw me into complete boundlessness, complete boundlessness. Because people didn't know what happened to Erthlin. Like literally, where did Erthlin Manuel go? Because I had already been known as a writer before I even came to Zen Center. So they knew Erthlin Manuel, but they couldn't find who the hell is this Zenju, I couldn't find Erthlin Manuel even with Zenju, because Zenju didn't have a resume. And she hadn't, she was not who I knew. And that opened the door for me to actually enter Zen more deeply. Because I was able to enter as not as Erthlin, with all the things

[27:27]

that Erthlin had achieved and done, but to just be Zenju with no resume, and no degrees. She didn't have it. I had all the degrees, BA, MA, doctorate, all of it. And it didn't matter, Zenju, and I stopped using all of those letters too, as Zenju. A lot of people try to call me Dr. Manuel, but I don't allow it, actually. So, and I got all of those degrees. I got my master's at 21, something like that. I got it very young, UCLA. So I think it's important to find these places, and it opened my whole life. And I was afraid too, I was afraid to be just Zenju, you know, because I didn't know what that meant. And I thought it would be an easier name than Erthlin, but it turned out it wasn't. It's, for some reason, hard for people to say,

[28:29]

I'm still shot. You know, I kind of have to say Zen over and over. Zen. So, Zenju. And I think they just don't attach it to someone who looks like me. So, anyway, that's the journey. I love life, and I love the practice. And I will, I just bring my practices along with me. My Christianity, my African Yoruba, I bring along my Nichiren Buddhism that I did for 15 years, and I bring that all to this seat. And all of that becomes still revealed to me. It's still revealed, like, whoa, that's what Christianity is. Oh, that's what Yoruba is. Oh, that's what Nichiren was. Oh, my goodness. So on and on, they're still being revealed, always. So I'm going to stop here

[29:33]

and take questions. Raise hands and place them right on the button. Christian Evans, do you have a video? Yeah, great. Yeah, thank you. I have two questions, but I'll only ask one. In Dharma Sutra that are old, for instance, Zen Mind, Beginner Mind is relatively new. Among the older sutras associated with Zen and Buddhism, which one or ones have helped you clear up Dharma understanding, please? Okay, for me, the Lotus Sutra and the Heart Sutra. And I'm learning more with the Diamond Sutra too, but Heart Sutra is always at the core of my practice. And I think because it lands on compassion, and I've studied it from different traditions, and I find that as much as I didn't

[30:39]

understand it when I first read it, that I began to understand more and more about distinction and how distinction gets in the way of compassion and experience of compassion. And now you cannot really define that either. So thank you, Christian. Thank you very much. My pleasure. Thank you. I don't know who came in what order. Thank you so much for your talk today. I struggle with my Dharma name. My Dharma name is Tenpu Hosei, and the Hosei is the part I'm supposed to go by. And when I tell people that my name is Hosei... Yeah, when I tell people my name is Hosei, I get a lot of questioning. What do you mean?

[31:46]

So I just related to that. And I've gone back and forth between going as Kelsey or as Hosei in the Zen world. I think you have to... I was really glad someone suggested that I put it down for three years after Jukai, and I waited for it to come to me, and it came to me from someone else back to me. And so I always ask students to see how it comes to you. In the students that I've named, we go through a long process. I go through a long process. We have a nine-month intensive Jukai study, and then there is a tea where they invite their parents, our relatives, our partners, and friends, closest friends. And I ask them questions in the tea, and the person just sits there, the candidate for Jukai. They can't speak until the end, and it's good because usually they're just in tears by the end

[32:50]

of it. And then I take all the things that people say. This is a ritual that Shosan Victoria Austin created. And so when everyone is done, I go and dream it. I go dream. I take weeks and weeks and weeks, and I dream their name and what I feel, and I dream their name. And so I think I always say don't use it until you're ready that it's something that you feel to use, and you don't have to use that name at all, ever, ever, ever, ever. So don't feel forced to. It's my tradition, especially among, I think, in African religion that when someone gives you a name, it's an honor. And so I was wanting to use that, to accept the honor of having been named, but I realized that wasn't the situation. I had to push the boundary. That wasn't the situation with the Zen practice, that I had to do it in that way. So it sounds like there's still, for you,

[33:50]

just settling on your practice and seeing how the meaning of the name comes through as you practice, and not to worry about what people say to you. People have said some kind of really interesting things to me around my name, which is like, messes in their minds, and so that's okay. But I understand how the sound of your name can be confusing to people, for you to say Jose. And I would be Jose, maybe learning more how to say it with a Japanese, the real Japanese, because it's sounding a little Spanish, right? So there's a little Z going in there. So maybe really finding, getting the real kind of sound of it, so that when you say it, it'll come through differently to people. They'll be trying to, like, what did you say, rather than,

[34:55]

because they want to know it, rather than what did you say, what? You know? I don't know. Some conflict there. Yeah, so I would just go with the meaning. Just work with the meaning. Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you so much. Yeah. Okay. Lori. Hi, Zenju. Hi, Lori. Wow, thank you so much for letting us be one of the places you said yes to. I really, I resonated with so much of what you said. And when you said, how do you step off the 100-foot pole without falling? I know, and your whole talk has been very much about groundedness and finding your ground and finding the ground. But what popped into my mind when you said that is, oh, you have to fly. That's the only way. That's it. And I really feel like that's something you do on your own, you know? Flying somehow is so, like what you were saying about how to find it within. So I don't know if you have any.

[36:00]

Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did speak about flying. Like, you know, when I got to the edge of the canyon, I felt like I flew like a condor. And I'm very surprised of that feeling. And I go, oh, you know, I'm not afraid, you know, as I fly. They're the California condors down there, not the other ones from South America. But so they're flying there all the time. So that's that came as an image. But I do feel like it is, you know, flying or swimming in the ocean, it still can be is that is really the point is the vastness. Can you be in it? Can you be in the vastness and still, you know, live your life and feel engaged in this life? You know, so it's it's the simultaneity of embodiment and boundlessness. Yeah, you know, the integration of it, we're either one and the other something over there that we might make up like, oh, I'm feeling very boundless. Because, you know, I don't believe in this and believe in that. So

[37:04]

I'm boundless. But that may not be boundlessness for you. Or I'm embodied, I need to be embodied, and then I stay over here embodied, so that I can understand and be engaged in the world as I am embodied. Now, of course, I've been in both of these places. But and I might revert to those places. But what I found in Zen and through Zazen and through ritual and ceremony, that in those places, and in that breath, is the the opportunity and the chance for integration of the embodied and boundless experience, because it's the integration, not the going over here, and then the going over there, you know, for one or the other. So when we when we're doing this practice, that's to me, for me, that was how I was able to experience what we call Zen, you know, but Zen, it's also right undefinable. But you know, I, it's breath, and it's and it's the offering of the incense to offer incense in the midst of internalized impression was very powerful.

[38:11]

For me, very powerful. And then I can hopefully transmit that that feeling in my life by my presence. Now I'm not going out this like who needs to be transmitted. You know, maybe I should transmit something to you. I don't think I'm not into that. But definitely, it's important to have a have a presence that where it's felt the integration is felt. And yeah, I think that's yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much. Yeah. Okay. Great. Good seeing you too. I miss you guys. All right. Next, Ben. I think yeah. Thank you. You talked about how concepts and thinking can create these boundaries. And I'm also noticing that sort of wanting something can create that boundary for me.

[39:17]

Or so sometimes I feel quite comfortable being in the more boundless place. And that's really inspired me to continue to practice. But I also find that I have sort of these desires or impulses that take me into another space where I feel like I'm going to get something out of it. Or if I'm chasing some sort of sensory satisfaction or desire or smaller. I know wanting to sort of be smaller, but I find myself when I'm in that place, no longer satisfied like I can, I can feel that that's not real satisfaction. When you're no longer in what place gives me balance. Yeah, when I'm sort of turning away from the boundlessness, maybe out of fear, maybe adding out of wanting some something, you know, maybe out of habitual ways of being. And maybe sometimes, you know, I think of this, this quote from Suzuki Roshi, that Sojin used to quote about, you know, be careful, you know, what you ask for in terms of,

[40:23]

you know, enlightenment or practice, because you might, you might find that it's quite boring. Which is only one side of it. But I have felt that we're being in that less confined space is can somehow be less exciting than some of these things we might have chased after more consistently. Anyway, I hope my question is coming to a point for you. But so I find myself stuck between the old place that no longer satisfies and the new place where I feel myself pulled away from sometimes. So, you know, what do I do? Yeah, I think it sounds like in both places, there's, there still is a very kind of unknowing, you know, like, and I think that you're, you're still working on not knowing, you know, because when that in that place where you're absolutely lost, you know, and I think

[41:25]

that's why balance, let's be fearful, right? Because we don't want to be lost, you know, we got navigators on in our cars now, whatever, you know, GPS, yes, they call it GPS, navigators in our cars and on our phones. And I mean, it's like, it's we don't want to be lost. And so in being lost, though, you can, you know, of course, you can, you can find, you know, something a little bit different than what you were seeking. So sometimes, what we're seeking, you know, is, is can lead, you know, to that place of that we're thinking we're going to. So I remember this came in a dream when I was in India. When you, let's see, how does it go? Find, when you're seeking, you will find. And when you're being, you'll be found.

[42:27]

It came in a dream and I and I just held on to it for like 20 years. Seems like it's been that long. I'm not sure, maybe longer. So I think that there's still this place of bringing, letting go of where you think you are when you're on one place or the other. And so that would be when you're in those places. Am I really there? Am I really in that place? Am I really in this place? You know, these kinds of things. And then, and then let it go of what you think that is. Either one. I mean, that's all like I would suggest, you know, so from my own experience, not from some higher wisdom. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay. You're welcome. Okay. Let's see. I do something. Okay. Okay. Next.

[43:31]

Jeff, I think. Is that right? Or was Mary first? Mary was first. Okay. Mary. All right. Thank you, Zenju. I noticed in my body, as soon as you started talking about boundlessness, this feeling that I recognize when I've heard people say, there's nothing to hold on to. And, and the feeling has a component of fear to it, on the one hand and excitement on the other. And it also feels like the same feeling when I'm on the verge of tears. It's sort of this mix. If I don't latch on to a definition, it's this blend of feeling. And I'm kind of struggling with the metaphor of groundlessness versus being grounded. And someone once said that jumping off the 100 foot pole is not the problem. The problem is if you imagine you hit the ground.

[44:36]

That's right. And if there's no ground, there's no problems. So that's perfect. Because this let me, that's exactly what I'm doing. And I just say a little piece, since you just brought this up for me, you know, thank you. And to say that one who sits on top of a 100 foot pole has reached a certain height. And once there, what? They must either climb down or perhaps fall or jump to their death. Real or existential. It's a leap of faith to think you'll survive the fall. But maybe there's no 100 foot pole, or a leap. There's just standing fiercely at the edge of the vast canyons in your life, unafraid of slipping. You know, so you just reminded me of that part, you know, that there, it's, you know, it's our mind, you know, working. And what you said about ground and groundlessness,

[45:37]

you know, I kind of like what Pema Chodron says about that, about groundlessness. I don't know if you've heard her teachings around that. Yeah, she really teaches about uncertainty. And I mean, most of her teachings are about that, you know, because that's where she teaches that the transformation happens in our lives. You know, and even though like, in, I talk about hitting the ground, it's not the ground, really, you know, where serenity comes out. It's that place where there's, there's just nothing. And that's when serenity has a chance to crawl out of you or into you, one way or the other. So I don't, I'm not really talking about literally the ground. Yeah. Yeah. But, but I like the metaphors of both of them. Yeah. Right. Right. I remember when I heard Pema say, there's nothing to hang on to. And then she paused and said, and that's not bad news.

[46:40]

Yeah, it's good news. Yeah, that's what she says. I mean, I was taught that the first time I came into Buddhism and Nishan, you know, I was talking about all my problems and they were like, congratulations. And I was, that really upset me because I was like, it's so much pain. So congratulations, everybody. We're suffering the entire world. So love the practice. Love it. Thank you, Mary. All right. Jeff. Zenju, thank you so much for a wonderful talk and wonderful energy. I mean, half the communication comes from, from how you feel to me as you say it. And when you, when you started talking about hiking on the south rim or hiking on the rim of the canyon, I long for the vastness and to jump into the air and fly. And I have vertigo. And so I'm on the edge of the canyon and, and, and I feel that energy trying to push me off the

[47:42]

edge into the canyon. And so as I kind of translate that, one of the, one of the things that really spoke to me as you, as you were talking is how I build these walls around me with every concept and every word and everything that I think I believe that is true. Right. You know, for me, when I build these prisons, it's because the alternatives feel really dangerous. If I lose my job at my age in the Silicon Valley, what will happen next? And so when we talk about jumping off the pole, yeah, I'm happy to do that, but there are real consequences to, to these actions. Don't smile. I'm frightened. Don't smile. I'm only smiling because the consequences are exactly what is to be brought to your life,

[48:44]

you know, because I know I've been, I've been through that. I've, I've, I've done a lot of jumping or pushed off or whatever, you know, you know, pushed off by the wind, you know, circumstances and conditions of life. And I laugh because, you know, I mean, that's how I ended up living in New Mexico and it's so lovely. It's so beautiful. I love my home so much. And I don't think I realized a couple of years ago, I said, God, I've had a lot of beautiful homes, but I never loved them. And then I got here. I just like, so in love and it's, I mean, and I lived in some vast, gorgeous, laid out, beautiful places. And I just have this really small casita with a fireplace and a little kitchen, a little bed. I love it, you know? And so I laugh at that because those are the things we're afraid of in, in, in the letting go. And I'm really glad I got pushed off or whatever. I jumped in a lot of times, you know, my family are like,

[49:47]

jumping into Zen was like, okay, my sister came to my ordination. I was so happy, you know? And I was like, I wonder what she's going to say, you know, cause you know, you're really, really bald, right? Completely to your skin, you know? And she looks at me and she says, that's how I'd look if I cut my hair. And I was like, okay. So it just, the consequences I thought was going to happen. Didn't, you know, it was just, I think things open the consequences are the openings. Nice. And what I want to take away is being aware of how I build my boundaries and build my walls and being willing to deconstruct those and step outside of them at every turn. Yeah. Or just step away. You don't build, you don't tear down, you don't do anything. Nice. That's even more of opening. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's really nice to get to listen to you. Okay. Okay. Oh, okay. Somebody has to tell me about time cause

[50:47]

I'm not watching it. Yes. We have time for one or two more questions. Yes. Daniel. Yes. Please. Okay. Daniel. Hi. Hi. How can entering the ground of this body help us relate to the ground of the whole earth? Okay. I think for me and I only can go every time I respond, I always let people know I don't have the answers, but I'll respond to anything. And my aunt told me about that when I was like six or seven, that I will answer anything, any question. So I haven't changed, but it's not an answer.

[51:51]

And I'll just tell you my experience is when I see things die in nature, die on the earth. And especially when I see even groups of people in tribes that they have come and gone. And so understanding the nature of things coming and going, and that is nature. And that's when I got, oh, we're nature. We are nature. We come and go. And this body is nature. And even though we kind of attach a whole bunch of things to the body, it's still nature. And if you want to read a little bit more about that teaching from me, The Way of Tenderness, there's a whole section called Body as Nature. And in there, I began to experience myself as being nature. Now we are, because we're full of

[52:57]

water. The heat, we're heated up, so there's fire. There's wind in our breath. We're everything that the earth is, everything that any other animal is. And anything that's alive and anything that will die. So the alive is that we know, like a lot of people say, oh, we're the same because we're human. But I feel like we're the same because we're from the same source of life, whatever that source is. Some people may call it God. Whatever that source is, we're from that same source. And then from that source, there's diversity, right? So that makes us the flower. If we're from the same source, from the same mother, same light, if you want to even put it in human terms, from the same light, then we're related to the butterfly. And then we are related in that sense. And then we're related to the earth because

[54:03]

we're other. We have come and we will go. And when you get really sense that in and reflect on it, not force it into your mind, like, oh, that's really a nice idea, a nice romantic idea. Then don't do that part. Just when you see something dying, know it as yourself. When you see something coming alive, know it as yourself. You know, that kind of thing. Thank you. Nice question. Hey, one more. Okay. Kurt. Okay. Hello. I got it. Thank you so much, Ginger, for the wonderful talk. And thank you for speaking to that fear of boundlessness. I think you've probably addressed it, but I felt like it was probably important for me to just voice my concern around that and just sort of name it more myself.

[55:11]

I noticed this morning that I was sitting before this talk and feeling really open and kind of spacious. But there was a part of me that was like looking for problems, like wanting me to be sad or why it's almost like that being on the edge of that openness seems so unknown that it's almost like I want to grasp onto these old patterns of anxiety or sadness. It's almost anything, or at least I'm assuming that's what it is. It seems almost better than that. And then when we were reading the Heart Sutra earlier, and it certainly isn't the first time it's occurred to me, but when it gets to that part of no eye, no nose, no emotion, that can be kind of scary to me. It's like, well,

[56:14]

what do you mean? And then there is that fear also that kind of Ben mentioned of flatness or then what? Or I'm not having these feelings and maybe I'd rather almost be sad or scared than nothing. And so I don't know any thoughts about- Yeah, a couple of thoughts came to mind. And that is oftentimes, that's why chanting is really important, chanting and movement before sitting, because those chants were created to espouse a feeling within us, a place within us when we chant them so that we all come in with, you know, going on in our heads when we come to sit. And then when we chant, at least in my experience, when I chant and I always tell people like, if you're really, you know, your mind's really going crazy, you know, just start, just chant. And just keep chanting and see how many, how can,

[57:17]

no thoughts are coming in there, you know, just really chant, you know. And so that's from my chanting, you know, paths with, I still chant, but I mean, with Nisha, we just chant through these things so that we can, we're not sitting, when we go to sit, we're not reifying our sitting and trying to meditate on a problem, you know, that we've been kind of put, you know, prepared for the silence by the chanting, you know, bowing, offering incense, all these things prepare us for that. And so we can really, sometimes we kind of ignore the incense, we ignore the bowing, then we sit down and go, oh, okay. But all those things are to help prepare for that sitting practice. So that said something, gosh, gosh, gosh. There were two things you said. I see if I can get back to it. You know, about, so that's about holding on to some of the things. Oh, gosh. Okay. I might've lost it. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. It's not so much like a holding on. It's almost like a wanting to create,

[58:24]

like I can be in that space of feeling kind of boundless, not when I'm sitting, but just, but then my mind is like, are you sure you're boundless? Maybe you're sad. It's almost like I'm trying to generate something. Right. Well, the mind is going to do that because it's trying to grab onto boundlessness. It's trying to grab on. So the no, [...] no. Remember that chant, Heart Sutra is the wisdom of the Heart Sutra. What's the wisdom of the Heart Sutra? Compassion. That's the wisdom that's being taught in that chant. And so when we're chanting the no, no, no, that's no distinction. So that means, and the same with no self, that the reason why that is, is because there's nothing in and of itself. So there's no nos in and of itself. There's no I, no ears, no. And when we begin, there's no you, there's no me, there's no teacher, there's no

[59:30]

Zenju, there's no Kurt. And when we get to that place of not having that distinction, that we gain the wisdom and are not gaining, let's say experience the wisdom of compassion, that we can let go of a lot without trying to let go on our own. Because we're not very good at those kinds of things. If we were, we were so good, we all wouldn't even be sitting here. We are not good at it. Because of who we are, because we're human beings, that's all. We're just human beings. And so, yeah, so just maybe study that no, no, no, and the feeling of it that you have. And what is that? Because when I walk out, when this is over, the Zoom is over, and I take off my robes, and I walk out in my neighborhood, they don't see a Zen priest.

[60:36]

They just see this kind of like, why, why is she bald, you know, or whatever, you know, they don't see a Zen priest. So that, you know, so that there's, there's situations, there's conditions, there's circumstances, all of that, you know, kind of keeps us tight, rather than just saying, oh, there's a bald headed woman, period, you know, doesn't matter whether I'm a priest or what, a bald headed black woman, you know, and on top of that, you know, so just, you know, that way of having no distinctions and knowing that the interrelationship that the Buddha speaks of all the time. And, and, and, and having that to be where, where we do our work and develop our wisdom and our love is in, is in that Heart Sutra. And it's great to study that one from different traditions. Very interesting. You know, from Tibet, we would, it would be a whole class if I were to teach all that, I'd have to pull out all my journals and teach that to you the different ways. But

[61:42]

it's to me that the most important sutra, you know, in the practice, and, you know, maybe we'll come, you know, come back over and over to learn the Lotus Sutra, the Mantra Sutra, you know, there's so many to dine in, you know, but really learn it. That's why I only picked one, because that, that's a lifetime, that's two or three lifetimes of wisdom. So I just, I don't need to study all of them. But I, you know, I've read them. And, you know, I have some think knowledge about them, but I haven't experienced the one I have experience of is the Heart Sutra. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

[62:25]

@Text_v004
@Score_JJ