I vow to chase the truth This morning I want to talk about case number 49 in the Blue Cliff Record. This is called various things and various translations, but here it says, Sun Sheng's golden fish who was passed through the net

[01:05]

golden fish, a goldfish, a carp, sometimes gold, golden like a goldfish, big huge goldfish. But it also can refer to a sturgeon. I'll explain that later. So in Yuan Wu's introduction, or pointer, he says, piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag. Fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear. One who sits on a tiger's head and takes the tiger's tail may not yet be an adept.

[02:12]

Though an ox head appears and a horse head returns, this too is not yet extraordinary. But say, how is it when one who passes beyond measure, when the one who passes who one person who passes beyond measure, an incomparable person, comes. To test, I'm citing this old case. Look, this is very mysterious, but I'll explain it later. To the best of my ability. So here's the main case. Sun Sheng asked Xue Feng, I wonder, What does the golden fish who was passed through the net use for food? Shui Feng said, when you come out of the net, I'll tell you. And Sheng said, the teacher of 1,500 people and you don't even know what to say.

[03:15]

Feng said, my affairs as abbot are many and complicated. And then the verse goes like this. The golden fish was passed through the net. Stop saying he tarries in the water. He shakes the heavens and sweeps the earth. He flourishes his mane and wags his tail. When a thousand foot whale spouts, waves, vast waves fly, but That's my word. At a single thunderclap, the pure wind gusts. The pure wind gusts. Among gods and humans, how many know? How many? Okay. Piercing, penetrating, one takes the drum and captures the flag.

[04:21]

This is the pointer. Fortified, entrenched, one inspects the front and oversees the rear. This is like how you do a battle. when you're engaged in a battle, piercing, penetrating, and one side goes in and takes the drum and captures the flag. As kids, you play capture the flag, right? We used to. Kids don't do this anymore. So this indicates what you do when you have two sides vying against each other, which refers to the case. You have these two edits who are engaging each other in a kind of battle.

[05:28]

One who sits on a tiger's head and takes the tiger's tail When you sit on the tiger's head and you take his head, then you bring him together and you've captured the tiger. One who does that may not yet be an adept. Maybe that's referring to Sun Ching, who gives Shui Feng a hard time as his teacher. Who is his teacher? Though an ox head appears, disappears, and a horse head returns, this too is not yet extraordinary. This ox head and horse head, one appearing and the other disappearing, has the feeling of quick repartee, a thought which is beyond thinking.

[06:37]

appears, and then there's a response which goes beyond analyzing. And so this is a horse head and an ox head. One appears, the other disappears, then the other appears, the other disappears. So it's a kind of quick question and response like. But say, how is it when a man or a person who has passed beyond, who is incomparable, one who has transcended, like an adept, when this kind of person comes along? So to test, I'm citing this case. So here's the case. Sun Sheng and Xue Feng. San Cheng was a lot younger than Shui Feng. Shui Feng was responsible, the teacher of two, Master Umang and another master who were the masters of two schools of Zen, of the two of the five schools of Zen in China.

[08:05]

So he was quite a great teacher. Although he was considered not... It took Shui Feng a long time to mature. And he was not considered so brilliant. But he was considered a great teacher. Not a brilliant teacher. He didn't have a fast mind. But he had a very deep mind. And San Sheng, who was the successor of Lin Chi, or Rinzai. So he was also a great master. But at this time, this was probably before he studied Lin Chi, he was still young. And Shui Feng was an old man already. So there's quite a difference in their ages. And yet, they were very intimate with each other.

[09:11]

So Sun Sheng asked Shui Feng one day, he says, I wonder, what is the golden fish or the golden carp who has passed through the net used for food? Golden carp means our fish is a thoroughly enlightened person. And the net is whatever people are caught by. Views, fame and gain, desires, prosperity, formalities, you name it, anger, fear. So, he's asking this leading question, but the question seems to come from some feeling that he is an enlightened person who has passed through the net.

[10:25]

So, he's trying to a little pompous. Actually, he's quite a strong student and does have some realization. Not like, you know, doesn't have any realization. But in asking this question, he really opens himself up to criticism. But what does one need when one is passed out of the net? Why do you have to worry about it? When you're no longer captivated by anything, what is there to eat? So in some sense, he's asking Shui Feng, now that I've

[11:32]

progressed this far. I'm no longer in the area of the little fishes who are down there swimming, you know, kind of wondering what it's all about. I am now the big fish out of the net. And what can you give me? What's the advanced teaching for an adept like myself? So Shui Feng says, when you come out of the net, I'll tell you. So this is a really mean thing to say. And Yuan Wu has a little commentary for each one of these lines. And in this one, he says, He, meaning Shui Feng, diminishes the other man's reputation quite a bit.

[12:35]

An expert teacher of our sect is naturally independent. So, it's a kind of mean thing to say, but he's really taking everything away from San Cheng. Totally. stripping everything off of him, pushing him back into the little fish pond. And then, San Cheng comes back with, well, you're the teacher of 1,500 people and you don't even know what to say. That's, you know, adding meanness to meanness, right? A real retaliatory And then Yuan Ru says, the crashing noise of sudden thunder really startles the crowd.

[13:39]

Let him leap about. So he's very angry. So then Shui Feng says, you know, I'm really busy with all my affairs as Abbot, and I really don't have time for this. And that's... It looks like he's abandoning It looks like he's walking away from it. That's, I think, a usual way of looking at that. It's like, I can't bother with this.

[14:41]

He's not saying that exactly. He's saying, I'm really busy as Abbott. I really have, there's several interpretations for this, but by saying, I really have a lot of things to attend to. and they're just ordinary affairs. He's kind of hinting to San Sheng, when you are an enlightened person and you're out of the net, nothing will change. You will just go about your ordinary affairs, just like I'm going about my ordinary affairs. I have nothing special to show to you, or whatever it is, that is realized within me is not something special to show to you other than how I go about my ordinary activities. When someone appears, I respond.

[15:53]

When there's When I have to clean the toilets, I clean the toilets. When I have to wash the windows, I wash the windows. When I have to serve tea, I serve tea. When I have to drink tea, I drink tea. When I have to eat rice, I eat rice. And when there's something in the rice I don't like, I eat it anyway. And when you give me a bad time, I eat that. It's like softness responding with softness to hardness, or to power. Responding in a soft way to a powerful wind. And there's something about this repartee which looks like one is losing and one is winning.

[17:05]

Looks like Sun Shang is saying something and then Xue Feng is pulling the rug out from under him, which he is doing. But it's a harmonious repartee. It's not like Shui Feng is trying to win, or that Sun Sheng is trying to win. You know, when we read or hear about these repartees between the students and the teachers, often the commentators say, and so-and-so won. But actually, it's not that somebody won. Nobody's trying to win. What should be coming up is Dharma wins.

[18:07]

Truth wins. Not I win or you win or you lose or I lose. Even though it looks like Sun Shang is being belittled in some way. And it also looks like Xue Feng is losing when he says, I'm sorry, you know, but I'm just too busy with my tasks to bother with this. That looks like a real cop-out. Sounds like a cop-out. But it's, this is, teacher's great ability because his reasoning or his response is not obvious at first.

[19:12]

Sometimes a good teacher will say something to a student, a student and doesn't understand so well. And then a year later, oh yeah, I see what he means. It comes up from here, boom. That's a good example of teaching for a good teacher who has that ability. And without even thinking of it as ability, or even calculate particularly, So a good student, you know, doesn't matter whether you're in the net or out of the net. Sun Ching's mistake is to think that it's good to be out of the net.

[20:29]

that there is a net to be out of and that one should be out of it. But whether you're in the net or out of the net, the main thing is how you practice, not whether you're in the net or out of the net, not whether you're caught or not caught, but the quality of practice. What is the quality of practice when you are caught? And what is the quality of practice when you're not caught? The food is the same. The food for the big fish is the same as the food for the little fish. There's no special food to eat, actually. Sometimes people say, what is the advanced practice? But there is no special advanced practice.

[21:37]

That's why Zen is different than most other practices. Because in most other practices you start from some place and then little by little you gain something and learn something more and more until you get higher and higher. But advanced practice, Zen, is getting lower and lower. The lower you are, the higher you get, but it's not a height which is in contrast to being low. And so, when you start to practice, when you begin to practice, the first day you come to the Zen Do and sit down in the cushion, it's exactly the same, except for the quality. of when you have been practicing for 50 years.

[22:39]

It's the same practice. And the first time you sit is actually to actually be able to have that quality after 50 years is advanced practice. To have that quality of sitting down for the first time not knowing what's going to happen is hard to recapture. You can't recapture that. But it takes you 50 years to get back to that place where when you first sat down So people do get caught. They get caught thinking that there's something, some advanced practice.

[23:45]

There is some, you know, deep understanding. Understanding is the difference between shallow understanding and deep understanding can be great. And the quality of practice can vary tremendously. But the practice, there's no special food. No special, no secret practices. So where most practices gain something, in Zen practice we let go of things.

[25:01]

continually letting go of things. So in this case, you know, teacher and the student, when one is hard, the other is soft. And when the other is hard, the other is soft. So, one receives, one gives, and the other receives. And the other gives, and the other receives. So that there's harmonious activity going on, even though it seems very, like a fight. Seems like a fight. And Shui Tu, in his commentary, says, observe how the two of them held fast to their territories.

[26:15]

Neither one really gave in to the other. Towering up like 10,000 fathom walls. Wonderful exaggeration. With this one sentence of Shui Fong's, anyone other than San Sheng would have been unable to go on. Yet Sun Shang Tu was an adept, thus he knew how to say to him, the teacher of 1,500 people and you don't even know what to say? But Xue Feng said, my affairs as abbot are many and complicated. How obstinate this statement is. When these adepts met, there was one capture and one release. Each acted weak when encountering strength. and acted noble in encountering meanness. If you form your understanding in terms of victory and defeat, you haven't seen Xue Feng even in dreams.

[27:17]

Look at these two. Initially, both were solitary and dangerous, lofty and steep in the end. Both were dead and decrepit. In the end, they were But say, was there still gain and loss, victory and defeat? When these adepts harmonized with each other, it was necessarily not this way. So then in his verse, he says, the golden fish was passed through the net. Stop saying he tarries in the water. He's talking about San Sheng here. He shakes the heavens and sweeps the earth he flourishes his mane and wags his tail, when a thousand-foot whale spouts vast waves flying." This all refers to San Sheng, who, even though his question was open, you know, he really opened himself up to have the rug pulled out from under him, yet he had all this great spirit, wonderful spirit with which he did all this, and in his ability to stand firm and not be

[28:32]

turned around by Shui Feng to stand his ground. This is very important. I mean, it's not good to stand your ground when you do it when you're stupid. But neither one of them gave, you know, and so they got deeper and deeper. And yet at the same time, they were both giving and receiving. So then, he says, at a single thunderclap, the pure wind gusts. The pure wind is... The thunderclap is Shui Feng's saying, I'm sorry, but my duties as abbot really make me too busy to continue with this conversation. That's the single thunderclap, but it's a very quiet one. He says, at a single thunderclap, the pure wind gusts and everything calms down.

[29:40]

So Sansheng is this fish that's flipping around like crazy, and then Shui Feng says this and everything calms down. Among gods and humans, how many know? How many know? That's his question to everyone. And then there's a commentary that says, one who has passed through the net doesn't need to ask about food. He would not need anything special. He would just carry on the ordinary mode of life, carrying wood, cleaning toilets, etc. So,

[30:42]

When at the end where he says, among gods and humans, how many know? How many? It's like, how many will know how to have this kind of, or understand this kind of dialogue, this kind of meeting with the teacher and the student? which is a kind of battle, but it's not a battle for winning or losing. It's a battle to bring out the Dharma, to bring something forth, the vigor of practice, questioning that gets down to the bottom of things.

[31:49]

And how to meet. And how to show strength in softness. and softness and strength, and how it's actually very strong to take the weak position at the right time, and how to take the strong position at the right time. without being overbearing. And to take the strong position with a soft mind. And the soft position with a strong mind. And to know when to do which.

[33:06]

so that one is not pushed off one's position. This is how to not be turned around by anything. This is also zazen. In zazen, you don't let yourself get pushed around by anything. And by yielding, you take the strong position. And when you do take a strong position, you do it with soft mind. Otherwise, you can't do it at all. And by being able to go back and forth, you don't get pushed off your seat by anything.

[34:15]

So, Old Shui Feng doesn't let himself get pushed around by anything. This is what's called an adept When he needs to stand very firm, he stands firm. And when he needs to be pushed back, he lets himself be pushed back. He lets himself be walked over, then he springs back up. But he doesn't mind. Not a problem. But when he does, if he allows himself, to be like a tall tree, the bulldozer will come and uproot him.

[35:31]

Do you have any questions? Well, one of the things that fascinates me about this is that although we always see ego as this obstacle, it's also this desire that we want to get through the head. It's like the little whip that keeps us swimming. Yeah, the little whip that keeps us swimming. So, ego has a place. The problem is that it's like a balloon, and it keeps getting puffed up, pumped up, and then it takes over, you know, the balloon fills the room.

[36:39]

So when the balloon is the right size, then it's very helpful. Then we don't call it ego anymore. Then it's a way-seeking mind. Yeah, that's right, then it's a way-seeking mind. But it also appears to me that we can really enjoy some of the rough edges. Yeah. That's right. We should be able to appreciate everything. Appreciate all the rough edges. Absolutely. So we don't have to get into critical mode. You should see, oh these are rough edges, this has to be done, and that has to be taken care of, and this is not so good. But you can appreciate that. When you see it, when you see the difficulties that you have, and really face up to them, it's fun.

[37:43]

It makes life interesting. Because you know what you have to practice with. And when you know what you have to practice it, and what you have to do, it's not the same kind of a problem as, oh, what'll I do? Yeah. I might be staying strong with back a few pages or 20 minutes. You said something about the thunder or the big noise Did you say rarely upsets a crowd or rarely upsets a crowd? I don't know if I said the crowd. It was about the student, I think. I think that sound was about the student. And then another clap of thunder was about the teacher.

[38:48]

And one seemed to be interpreted one way and another way. But both were thunder metaphors. Oh, I see, yeah. The crashing noise of thunder, sudden thunder, really startles the crowd. Oh, really? Startles. It's like when he said, well, teacher, Don't you have anything else? You're the teacher of 1,500 people. Is that all you can say? Right, that was about that. That was about that. Yeah, that was the kind of... But then he said, let him go, right? Let him do it. Let him jump around. Oh, let him leap about. Let him leap about. Just watch him do that. In other words, this is his tantrum. Right? This comes out of his tantrum. Okay, teacher, you know, you... That's a tantrum. So watch him leap about. It's so opposite to me. It really upsets the crowd. But let him do it anyway.

[39:50]

Well, upsets the crowd is just a kind of metaphor. It's just like... It's almost sarcastic. Sarcastic, yeah. But it is. It's a sarcastic comment. Yeah, I thought so. Yeah. Don't you think it refers to the challenge to authority? It's very upsetting when people hear a teacher being challenged. Oh, I see. And there's a reaction of shock when the teacher is challenged. I don't know if it refers to the teacher being shocked. No, no, in the room. People are shocked when the teacher is challenged in front of them. Oh yeah, could be, yeah. Yes, and then the other thunder was just beautiful, you know, pure wind, that sort of thing. Yeah, that's right. So, the first thunder refers to the student, the second thunder refers to the teacher. So, the first thunder... Those are different qualities, aren't they? Different qualities, yes.

[40:50]

That's right. So, the first one is, you know, really startling that he could say something like that to the teacher. But a wake-up, kind of. But just let him do that, you know. Flip around like the fish, right? Yeah, fish. And then the next line, the next comment says, it's not a matter of victory or defeat. Shui Feng lets his move go. In other words, he doesn't follow it up. He doesn't retaliate. Shui Feng does not retaliate. This is his softness. This is his weakness. But it's not weak. It's his strength. In what looks like weakness, it's his strength to not retaliate to the student's comment. Because that's, you know, when the student has his tantrum, Shui Feng does not respond to the tantrum.

[41:53]

He just says, I just have a lot of things to do. My position. It's a response, I think. Yeah, it's also, you know, a little jab. But it's, you know, they're friends. It's not like, you know... It's what you said in the beginning, carry on with your practice, I carry on with my practice. And so it's like they're both within the realm of practice? Yes, so it's not really retaliation. Right, no. But they do say things like that. It's like, you know, strong statements to each other. Yeah. Miriam? I didn't really feel the softness and yielding. I really saw it as two men thrusting their swords at each other. And I thought they were both being very strong, but why couldn't it have been in a way that had more loving-kindness in it?

[42:56]

And where was that element? Well, we can always say, what if? But what if is not where we're at. In another situation, we act like that, right? But this is the situation. And this is how they did. They did. I can't say why shouldn't they, you know. This is what happened. It seems like a battle of two egos to me. Well, it seems to me like it's a reduction of ego. Reducing is like getting beyond ego. On the surface, it can appear like. But there is ego in it. There's ego in San Cheng. And so, Shui Feng is cutting out, pulling the rug out of his ego.

[44:04]

Cutting him down. To size. But among other things. That's only one aspect. There are many levels. that are presented here. One is pulling down sighs. The other is helping him out. See, because although he's pulling the rug out from under him, he's actually doing it with kindness. Without explaining, no explanations. You have to realize that in this kind of encounter there are no explanations. It's just, uh-huh. That's why it's like, you know, thrust and parry, right? It's just one acts and the other responds, and the other acts and the other responds.

[45:04]

And so, without going into explanations or whatever, it's just responding to the situation. The teacher... It's a waste of time to speculate. If you were actually out of the net, you wouldn't ask this question. You wouldn't need to ask this question. So is there any way out of the net? Be one with the net is the way out of the net.

[46:07]

I think that's it. Nothing is a waste of time. Some things are a waste of time, but even those are not a waste of time. Yes? Paul? When you refer to the next project, is there an aptitude evaluation or solution? Yeah. Whatever. You name it. And you can get caught by it. As a matter of fact, even naming things is being caught by things. Can't hear you. You said that in Zen practice we don't have levels or we don't have priorities.

[47:16]

I didn't say that. I didn't say we don't have hierarchy. Well, I think you said something like this is different from other practices in the sense that we're not going from level to level. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, that's right. We're not going from level to level. Well, I wonder if you would comment on But those are two different things. People who are ordained and people who are not ordained is one thing, and people who have a good understanding and not such good understanding is another aspect. And they're not necessarily connected. So the first time you sit Zazen,

[48:18]

is the same as the last time you sat dozen, except that your understanding changes, becomes deeper. But it's the same, it's not like you're learning, when I say levels, it's not like what we call step ladder practice. First you learn this, then you learn this, then you learn this, which is usual in most practice. There's no step-by-step practice, but there is depth and wideness of understanding. But the practice itself is the same practice. It's not like there's some different practice. It's not like someone who has been practicing 30 years has a different practice than someone who's just beginning. That's what I mean. You understand that?

[49:19]

The other is, some people are priests and some people are lay people. That's lifestyle. It's not necessarily understanding. So a layperson can have a much deeper understanding than someone who is a priest. But a priest has a priest's way of life. And a layperson has a layperson's way of life. So for a layperson, you live in the world as a person who's working in the world. And your practice is expressed in that way. And you do not have the same kind of commitment. You're not expected to have the same kind of commitment as a priest. You may have, but you're not expected to have. A priest is expected to have commitment to the practice as their first priority in life.

[50:23]

So they practice as a priest, and there's an expectation of commitment, which is not expected in a layperson, because a layperson has other expectations. But a person may be ordained as a priest, but that doesn't depend on them having great understanding, they're working toward deepening their practice as their first priority. And because of that commitment, they take care of the practice in a different way, slightly different way than a layperson. But it's more of an expectation. So if you see someone become ordained as a priest, it doesn't mean because they're quote-unquote enlightened in contrast to other people.

[51:44]

It's because of their deep commitment to the practice. Yes.

[52:16]

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