In our group we talked about different aspects of levels of doubting language, and one more practical level was the question, especially for people who are quite new here, But I think the amount of language used, the explanations they get, is it too much? Is it not enough? And there were different opinions about that. Most people found it helpful to get explanations, but there is also the other side that the explanation takes away from them the possibility to explore it on their own and focuses their attention more on the explanation on the outside, which is the feeling.

[01:07]

This means my explanations? No, explanations in the whole, we do an orioke introduction, and then we talk about what to do and how to do it and stuff like that. And on a more abstract level, we used Wittgenstein's saying that you shouldn't be silent about things you can't talk about. That means after exploring the limits of language, then really to know where the limits are So in that way there was the experience that perhaps like the distinction between inside and outside, which is quite common in an experience of really feeling the immediacy of something that this distinction falls off.

[02:20]

So that to trust the experience first and then express it in language is another way to follow the language and this may block such experiences. And also to be aware while using words that like being on a boat and you think the ocean is round, that it's only a view and then that what actually happens might be far beyond what is in the range of what the meaning of the word suggests on the first hand. That makes communication not impossible, but it's kind of... It's a kind of awareness you bring in and you hold while you are speaking that what you express doesn't count, or what you hear doesn't count.

[03:36]

In our group we talked about two different aspects. A more practical aspect was the question of the people who had not been here so often. how they assess the amount, how they get the explanation, the amount of language that is needed here. And in some cases this explanation was considered very helpful. There was also the other side, and that this is a very important part. That is, as soon as you receive an explanation, you focus on the outside, on the explanation, and you have lost your own research. On an abstract level, I also played with the quote from Wittgenstein, that you should be silent about what you cannot speak about.

[04:49]

It is an expression of the fact that one first investigates the limits of the words, how far that carries, and then really lets the words fall beyond that. The example you gave of orioke instruction, If you enter a monastery, there's no Horioki instruction.

[06:04]

Everything you learn by noticing, and by noticing without looking. Maybe you don't eat much your first meals. But here we have so many laypeople and they're only here for a short time or a few meals and there aren't enough people to learn from. So we have to give orioki instruction, but it ought to be as brief as possible. Someone else? Yeah. I think, in general, instruction should be the absolute minimum that allows the person to get through the meal, because mostly... And it's terrible when you have to verbally correct somebody.

[07:27]

They should just learn by looking. So is that true for the Zender instructions as well? When I used to give Zender instructions in San Francisco, ten minutes... It was the most I ever did. But other people on Saturday morning used to give Zazen instruction. An hour and a half later they're still giving Zazen. I'd walk by the door. What the... What the heck are they doing in there? Yes, we also started with the sentence by Wittgenstein. Good old Wittgenstein.

[08:29]

And there was one person who found it very restrictive, and he remembered this creation story. He started with the Wittgenstein phrase too and one person found this sentence very limited because it reminded her of this Bible story how God creates everything. At the beginning there was the word. This is, I guess, the New Testament. Yeah. Oh, the old? Very old. Very old. I'm a Buddhist now, yeah. Okay. You left the Catholic Church earlier. Yeah. And there was the, it came up that the word, that a word hasn't been at the beginning and this is some sort of limit to a word at the beginning.

[09:48]

The other side was that one said, then you should be silent, that one could add to that, not only to be silent, but also perhaps to look closely at what the body wants to say. And the other opinion has been saying then you should stay in silence to give more instruction like feel what the body tells you about it. Because if you want to hold back a feeling, everyone can see in the body that there is a feeling in the back. And to be sensitive, not just to be silent, also to read this feeling in one's own body and in the body of someone else. And another aspect is to play around with the words so that the words are some sort also limitless, without a limit.

[11:07]

Yeah. So I've been with the female experimental group. You were? I wouldn't have guessed. And we asked what can be expressed by words. And one experience is that, as you mentioned, words are very limited. And the physical reaction, if a word is really authentic,

[12:25]

is that there is a kind of expression or musical reaction of it. And so that was one aspect. We thought about it further and looked at Wittgenstein from the other side and said, can you actually express everything through language or how much is language limited? and the reaction to the right word at the right time, when it seems authentic, usually also has a physical reaction, and that is a special element. Yes, really. Yes, my contribution was in the direction that I have a little difficulties with the statement, because my experience in the practice, in the work with family and children, is that people exchange too few words with each other and know too little about each other.

[13:48]

and to communicate less, to talk to each other much more bluntly. It wasn't like, this has to be the right word, it has to meet, but language as contact, not as content, but language as contact, as a transmitter or something. And that in our society more and more takes away the speaking, the using of words. And my sense of this sentence, of this Wittgenstein phrase was... This was the topic, this Wittgenstein phrase? This was one of the topics. Oh, I see. Okay. That in our, especially in our society, in my work with family and kids, that we don't talk... enough and that there should be more talking to each other and it's not about to find the right word it's more about the social contact and to use speech and language for special for the contact and this is what my emphasis in my work with family good working with families okay

[15:08]

He's asking about the experiment. He was wondering why he wasn't allowed in the female group. I've chosen. First of all, for those who were not there, it was a very short story. At the beginning I asked the group to just keep these three sentences that Otmar gave us in front of them and first focus on the body and see how these sentences in the body do what they do internally. Then a round was held, everyone could speak freely and I had announced to the people that I would take a break once or twice in between so that you can feel back to the body and see how the discussion in the body works. That had the effect that from the beginning die Pause schon zu übersetzen lassen.

[16:25]

He's talking about the experiment she has done in this group. And they started with the three phrases, like the limits of the words and to doubt the words. And that everyone has the emphasis to feel inside what these phrases, how they can feel these phrases inside. And then they had a little break and then start over again. Yeah. And also listen to the others, listen out of a body position to what the others are talking about. And already the idea that there will be a break in between had the effect that they started with a break. No, that they slowly, so everyone slowed down and they had more breaks or the feeling that... A break means just a pause in the discussion?

[17:39]

A pause in the discussion. Or a break for tea? No, no, a pause in the discussion so that everyone could feel again. Yeah, okay. And in the meantime I just said, now it's time. And of course it's always surprising. It's always a transformation. And this was... Then I said, okay, now let's have this break. And of course it's always, you have to change the conscious from talking to the body. And I did it. And then we began to discuss again and shared experience and discussed more. And so on, two times, I think. No, I suppose it's not. In the end we had again a sharing about the experience. And maybe I read what people said in this. In the round, yes, at the end?

[18:57]

Can I read that? The first woman said that it's kind of nice, there's a lot of space. It's as if every person had put a playing card in the middle. Maybe you can do something else now. Okay, now there's the sharing about what everyone said to this experiment, and one mentioned is, it's like playing a card, playing cards, and everyone had a card to put in the middle, on the table. And another mentioned is, now I could pick up one card and go on to the next experiment or to the next round. Sounds like poker, but... Then someone says, who said before that he would not like to speak,

[19:58]

Someone who started at the beginning, I don't like to talk, but in that context he felt invited to talk. And this was a sense of the path and the depth of the talk. The pranks give me the possibility to feel my own thinking and that what other people poured into this discussion. And another mention was There was no worry, hopefully it's interesting enough what I have to tell, or hopefully there is space for my bringing myself into that discussion.

[21:25]

And it was also good for someone that someone else took over the leading and to structure the group because that took away to have to do that by yourself. And the whole speaking has been more sensitive because we always went back to the body. Okay. What also came up in our group has been how people also can use words so that it's not limited and that it's kind of in a wide open range what people feel and get out of that.

[22:27]

For example, like we talk about when Norman Fisher was here and the way we looked at the Wilke poem or like you brought the poem at the beginning of this seminar, or just these very simple Japanese haikus. And this is really not limited. It's kind of open to all kinds of feeling and body feeling, and it's limitless. So the other way of using, or one possibility of using words. In our group, the opposite was also mentioned, the Japanese haikus, for example, or last year we had a seminar here with Norman Fischer, where we discussed, among other things, Rilke poems or the poem that Roshi gave in this practice week, that this is also a possibility to use words that address a lot in many people, but rather what this open can express.

[23:34]

Yes, we talked about the question of what brought us to practice, or when did we start to practice? Is it possible to bring the beginning of my practice into words? Or is this already the order of imitation of language? This was the question. Is it possible to bring the beginning of my practice, when I began, or something like that, you mean? Yeah. Into words? Yeah. Is it possible to tell, to tell it into words, or to bring it to one word? And one person could bring it to one word, which you gave in the talk.

[24:39]

What was the moment? What was the moment? I was used to the shit. No. Intend him. No. Okay, thanks. We talked a lot about limitation of words and about understanding and being felt understood. How I feel understood or not feel understood. We also talked a lot about the limits of language and words and how they are understood and what this has to do with our practice. One person told us that That for him, practice also started where the limits of language were reached. And where it became clear to him that what is going on now is only different if he wants to continue to understand his life.

[25:46]

Those were the words of Suzuki Roshi that brought him to start practicing. Then we had an example that one started practicing when he reached the end of the limitation of language, of speech. And he experienced then words from the beginner's mind, Zen mind, beginner's mind, as a kind of initial to start practicing. Anyone else? I was in a car group. I drove two people to Pazekin. We tried to talk a little. We talked about how important it is to incubate. I have been in the car group.

[27:01]

We had a discussion. You sat out in the parking lot? No, no, no. To a driving motor and inquired to the station. I could have guessed who was in the car group, at least the driver. And the topic has been incubating in a citroën. He's always trying to sell citrons. Okay. And how useful it is to hold the words, and you once mentioned this term, ripening, And how other words can come out of such a ripening process. And that it's also important to express experience in words, although you might have the feeling that it is an experience which is not possible to express in words.

[28:33]

Yeah, that's important. And that always helps me, even if I don't know the words in the beginning, some to give it a try to express it in words, that's a process of, ein Greifungsprozess, of ripening itself. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then we arrived in Bad Sacking and went for a cake and coffee. Don't make the others feel bad. Oh, okay. Okay, anybody else want to say something? One aspect that for me in our group was personally very important was the distinction between speaking and talking.

[30:05]

One aspect that was important for me in the group, like something kind of personal, the differentiation between... How do you translate this? Speaking and talking? Oh, yeah. There's a difference between talking and speaking. And I translated that for me that this person mentioned it in the group that he said that, I'm always talking. It's my body that talks, the situation that talks, and if I look clearly and I look precisely, Everything seems to be clear on that level. So this person in the group expressed it to me in such a way that he said, I actually always speak physically in the situation, the situation, and actually the situation expresses everything very clearly and clearly.

[31:16]

And then I can add to the whole speech. And then I can add talking, and on that level it's actually not necessary to add anything to that because it seems to be complete. So you add speaking. And I never thought about it that way, that on a certain level talking in terms of expressing ourselves completely all the time. You know, you read koans, often the teacher says something and then says, speak, speak. And it means to act, to act through speaking, to act through a statement, to act through bowing, to act.

[32:23]

There's a strong feeling in Zen there should always be a response, some kind of response. Okay, thank you. Anyone else want to say something? I was also in the speech and talk group.

[33:29]

and for me afterwards the most impressive thing was to realize that we were a new socially formed group and we were a group who practiced together and how and we tried to communicate together and I felt only the edges. Yes, good. Caterina, was your group any better today? It wasn't my group. If you're in it, it's your group. Yeah.

[34:57]

Yes. But what does it mean? Okay, I don't know. You're outzenning me. And you have something you could say to us? Yes, I also thought about the fact that... I think that words rarely reach their limits.

[36:22]

You have an incredible number of ways to express yourself with words. Excuse me, do you say that yourself? Okay, I had this thinking how words not so often reach their limits because you have unlimited possibilities to express with words. And what comes next, what plays a big role is how something is said. And it's important how you say something. And I can say a sentence and there are many possibilities to understand it and to express it. Good, thank you.

[37:38]

Thank you. Anyone else? Yeah? There was a certain intimacy about language and words. and that I practice not to distinguish who I am talking to. I have done that quite often by creating the words with proximity and distance. And I try not to make the distinction to whom I talk because it's possible to create a nearness and also a distinction to people through words and how you use words.

[38:54]

And it's a sort of, it's intimacy and a turn towards... Mm-hmm. If you talk to someone, just talking to someone. Yeah. With someone. With someone. Okay? Yeah? I'd like to make a positive contribution. I consciously wanted, in connection with intimacy, Yes, let me put it this way.

[40:00]

Often in phases of love or great erotic closeness, I practise this running and turning of words. And spirituality is even more intimate for me. And that has happened to me recently. that this happens in relation to eroticism and sexuality, and also in the spiritual realm, this turning and searching for words. That was a beautiful experience for me. Can you...? Not so good, I think. There is... Using words, then, or how to switch around the words in an intimate situation, or also even in a sexual situation, that's different than... and the spiritual using of words is even sometimes more intimacy than such a situation, yeah.

[41:15]

So that's... For myself, these are the two most intimate situations. The spiritual situation and the sexual situation. And in those, how I handle it is I use the words in this situation very carefully. I would like to add that my experience I think that many people suffer because no one has ever said to them that they are beautiful, that they are worth living, that they have abilities, that they cannot develop because they never get a positive feedback.

[42:27]

I want to go back to this, that many people suffer because no one ever told them that they are handsome, that they never get the positive feedback, and this is why people suffer. They suffer because words haven't been said. To them? To them. And on the other hand, people suffer because some words have been said. I hate you. Of course, yeah. You are dirty. And they suffer their whole life because of words, and they can't forget them. They are very mighty, words from persons you depend on or you love. That's very impressive. Yes, it's true. Well, that's maybe enough.

[43:46]

I guess tomorrow we meet at what time? We have the usual scheduled to service and then the risocchi and followed by an open breakfast and the open breakfast and buffet breakfast that might be at 9 o'clock and then when the kitchen is clean again and everything is set up again, then we have the meeting. So probably 10, half past 10. Okay. Okay. And what we've done in the past, I guess, since you, as I was told, I'm participating, is I've just, everyone has a chance, we go around to say something. And I ask something or date something. And I listen and maybe respond.

[44:53]

It's not something you need to prepare for. If you think of something you'd like to bring up, that's fine. No, you can let something develop, unless you happen to be the first person. You can let something develop as we go along. And since you don't know whether I'm going to go clockwise or counterclockwise, you can't avoid the first seat. And I brought up the statement from the Lankavatara Sutra the other day, that you should know the syllable body, hear the syllable body, know the syllable body.

[46:10]

The word body and the phrase body. The name body and the phrase body. Syllable. Syllable, name, phrase. And for me, of course, because I enjoy not knowing German, I hear the syllable body a lot. But I also, even in English, I... I first of all listen to the sound of what's being said. And I listen to the words that are chosen, that appear. And then I hear the phrases.

[47:26]

It's a kind of work, you know, kind of words. No, it's just, you know, something that, yeah, part of practice. But, you know, if you do give attention to the syllable body, you notice a lot more because the syllable body is very close to gesture and posture. And you don't know what the person is saying, really. You feel something. Sometimes you know, but that's not the point. It's more you feel something like this phrase from

[48:26]

One of the koans, not knowing is nearest. Yes, as has been implied and said during today, this just now. There's an intimacy in this koan. not knowing, the nearness of this not knowing. Or things which I cannot touch because they are too near. And you know, I spoke this morning about this mind-to-mind transmission or verification. And this mind-to-mind transmission doesn't just mean, oh, something that happens between teacher and disciple after many years.

[49:45]

Certainly, doksan, which means to go alone, is a... an institutional expression, a liturgical expression of this mind-to-mind, face-to-face knowing. But duksan is always present. There's a going alone just now, even though we're here in a group. And that feeling is also, you know, you kind of touch into that feeling, this body-to-body transmission. The expression of it, the feeling of it is in this syllable body.

[51:06]

And this expresses itself in this syllable body, this body to body and going alone. Of course, so in the specific practice of duksan there's, you know, there's a There is an expression that is not the same as here in the group. But it's not so different. And the more we know each other, and there's a habit of duksan practice together, then it's more and more present in every circumstance. then it is more and more present in every situation.

[52:09]

Sometimes when people say to me, I want to have Doxan, I usually say, yes. But I think, well, we've been having Doxan for four days. And maybe you don't have to exactly know about it, but there's a feeling, if you really feel, you know, again, this phrase, already or always even connected. And although you may not understand it exactly, there is also a feeling in this sentence, already connected or always connected, Yeah, I think that's enough for today. Thanks a lot for the seminar so far and etc. And we're ending a little early so he doesn't escape to the kitchen.

[53:13]

He's always, you know, my daughter likes to get to the toilet first, get through her cereal first, etc. And Frank sort of likes to be the first to leave. Today, we keep him back in the room. Thanks. Thank you for translating again.

[53:46]

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