Later in the morning. So what struck you about our discussion so far? Yes. When you spoke about steps and stages and pointing them out and so forth, I felt... Yeah, so when you said pointing out, I translated as making it explicit. Yeah. And the feeling, my feeling was as if I was a fish out of water.

[01:04]

And as if I'm grasping or reaching out for the water. And to make it explicit, there's this aspect or this moment of understanding or grasping it. But of course, it stays separate. So as if I see you on the beach. As if fish and water is separate and there's that feeling. And when I'm in the water. How can I say?

[02:20]

Maybe there's no term for it, but maybe there's just a feeling for it. Okay. Yeah. Dongshan said, no, Xu Shan Ren said in his Quran, please teach me a word that doesn't yet exist. Sushant Ren says in this quorum, please teach me a word that doesn't exist yet. And Dongshan said, I can't, no one would believe it. He says, Dongshan, I can't do that, no one would believe that. Okay, someone else? Yes? I had, when you said, in the title you spoke about the Indian trustworthiness. When you spoke about the title and this word intimacy, which in German is translated something like inner familiarity.

[03:20]

There was this feeling when I first came in here this morning and started preparing for the seminar. A sense of spatial connectedness as if time was gone. And that expanded also with you and with all of us sitting here doing this practice. I had a feeling as if it was just yesterday when we were here last. It was. As if we've never been gone. And in that, at the same time, everything that I have accumulated in the meantime as experience in between, all of that is also present.

[04:43]

Yeah. Okay, good. I think you were next. Ich glaube, dass dieses Koran spricht mich schon sehr an. And I ask you, do I also need a taste to feel that there is something there, regardless of the conscious perception of this sentence? So this koan really speaks to me, and I wonder, isn't it necessary to have some kind of taste for knowing that there is a perception beyond conscious experience? I associate, I hear Stop Making Sense from Talking Heads. Talking Heads is the consciousness that works.

[05:50]

And you yourself in your show simply bring the title Stop Making Sense. And of course I also know the the, let's say, Master Eckhart, Master Eckhart, who says in this beautiful Bible verse of Jesus, blessed are those who are slain by their spirit, So I could almost say I love this sentence, and I start associating, like, for example, there's a song by Talking Heads, and Talking Heads is, you know, like the continuously talking consciousness, and part of their show is they say, stop making sense. You know, can I interrupt a moment and say, I was in New York giving a talk on enlightenment, believe it or not, at the American, at some kind of thing, yeah. And David Byrne was there. And as I went out the door, David Byrne went beside me and he said, we almost met.

[07:00]

Yeah, so stop making sense, etc. So go ahead. When I... When Eckhart listens, he understands what the spiritual son, I think Adelbert, says. But we think it even deeper. And in the end he comes to the conclusion that nothing wants, nothing has and nothing knows. When I listen to Meister Eckerhard, for example, he has this thing where he appreciates what some other person, Meister Adelheid or something, says. But then he says, but we mean it even more deeply.

[08:01]

We mean it even deeper. And then in the end, he comes up with some phrase like not wanting anything. Nichts wollen, nichts wollen. Not having anything and not knowing anything. Good old Meister Eckhart. Meister Eckhart. Thank you. Yes? There are so many different kinds of concentration. there are so many different kinds of concentration and what one can concentrate on. And I think for most people that all happens in the realm of categories and verbal. For me, what happens is when it gets too theoretical, my concentration vanishes.

[09:13]

I drift off and am no longer interested. And oftentimes I feel I have to concentrate in order to be arrived. But sometimes there are situations where I feel drawn into concentration and when I'm arriving and feel present. Then what's there is not only the categories or the linguistics, but also the feeling. And one short thing, for years now I've been studying English.

[10:14]

Oh man, it doesn't get any better. I already notice the differences. Yes, but I would like to thank you for the translation, because I have the feeling that you have arrived here after a short time. But my English, for some reason, doesn't really get better. I have a sort of understanding for this. But I'm grateful for the translation because I've been feeling that for even after just a short time, I have felt like I arrived, arrived. Okay, good. If I see you start drifting, I'll think, oh gosh, I'm getting too theoretical. Wenn ich merke, dass du abdriftest und nicht interessiert bist, dann weiß ich, dass ich wahrscheinlich jetzt zu theoretisch werde. So I hope we both keep arriving. Also hoffe ich, dass wir beide weiterhin ankommen.

[11:23]

What struck me especially today was your statement that you are teaching us so that we can teach ourselves. And that reminded me of a situation in Santa Fe in 1986. I came to Dokusan and we spoke about Zen. And you said that you will have to do most of the work on the cushion.

[12:40]

And although it didn't really shock me, I also didn't really take it seriously. And it did take quite a while or some time until I really realized that I have to do the work. And your job at the time really was to keep showing me that, because I kept looking outside. And I think I learned something in that direction about how I can teach myself.

[13:46]

And I emphasize it like that because it's been important in my practice to stay with one aspect. And it's really been the accepting that, accepting this, and then the decision to say, yes, I have to do this by myself or to do this myself. I'm glad you continued. Someone else? Reinhard? To what you're saying, there's something going against me, so to speak. For what you are saying, I feel something that's the opposite direction.

[14:54]

I had a father who taught me that, who didn't show me the world, but said, look at yourself. I had a father who said that, who wouldn't show me the world, but who basically said, look at it yourself. And I took that on, and also the responsibility, And I took that on and also took the responsibility and said, yes, okay, this is my world that I'm experiencing, but it also led to a sense of separation or a sense of cutting myself off. And I was in my first session with you in the north of Hamburg. And in my first session with you in northern Hamburg.

[15:57]

It was actually completely full and I called from Hamburg and I said, no matter if you want to stop, I'm coming. And it was actually, it was completely full, the sashimi was full. But I called from Hamburg and I said, I don't care if you are trying to stop me, I'll be there. Didn't he put you in a closet? You sat on the Buddha tray. There was some talking back and forth, but then eventually we closed the Buddha trail. Oh yeah, the path. The path, yeah. Buddha path. And I sat right in front of the Buddha. And of course I was very proud that I had done that.

[17:02]

And I didn't, I had a bad posture, but I certainly did my best. And then I came to Dobson to show what my practice was. And I didn't give him a chance to ring the bell, so he sent me away. And then I said, okay, now I have to go back to my work. And he said, stop. And then you said, stop, it's not your work, it's our work. And that hit me quite deeply.

[18:03]

That was kind of terrible. So I know at that point I really felt that this... the crucial point might develop. Thank you. Anyone else? Was struck or unstruck? Struck down, struck up? Struck out? Hale. That sounded... Before we met, I read quite a bit about Buddhism. I could tell. Also, of course, read about the stages and the Vijñanas and so forth. And of course I always tried to say, where am I right now, am I already there, in the third, in the fourth, in the second, or not, or so.

[19:07]

And as you can see, there are still ten up there. So somehow that was exactly what you mentioned earlier, that you try to adapt to the way it is described. And of course, I kept trying to locate myself. Where am I? Am I already here or there? But then I'd also see, oh, geez, there's 10 above that and so forth. And it's much like what you just said before, that there was this feeling of trying to make it fit, make the shoe fit, trying to adjust oneself to what was described. And if you give it up and say, well, I'm free from imagination and this non-emphasis of the stadium, then there will be an infinitely large space where there is of course uncertainty. What is this here or where am I here or something like that? But then when that is let go of, and there's more of a feeling of just an open space, and I don't really know exactly where I am,

[20:10]

then at first that's a little scary, or unheimlich scary. Yeah, and to make this your home is quite something. Yeah, well, I'm glad you've continued to. Me too. This was even before Rosenberg. I think this was at Maria Lach. Yeah. And they had rooms in this building which weren't really suitable for a zendo. And we had to open into the other room and add seats. And I believe I sat here and you sat to my left in the other room. For the paperwork. Yeah. And if I remember correctly, you left after the session was over. You left, I think, if I remember correctly, with the feeling of, I'm not sure this is Buddhism. And I thought, will he come back?

[21:50]

They couldn't raise him. See, this is the old people's home, where we can reminisce. I think I told you, I brought Marie-Louise back to Maine, where I was born, and I said this was the hospital where I was born. I think I told you that. Marie-Louise brought me to Maine, where I was born, and I showed her that this is the hospital where I was born. And then she looked at it and said, hospital? But there's... What's it called? The word is T-R-U-L-L was the name of it for some reason. Okay. So Troll Altersheim is what it says there. Yeah, that's what happens.

[23:00]

The end is the beginning. Someone else? Yes? What touched me was this phrase, not knowing is nearest. And what happened for me was that I felt like it triggers a certain bodily feeling, like a resonance that I can... What did you say? Like a resonance that I can feel my way into, or I can feel. And what came up as the first glass was the realization that if I want to be close to someone, I have to stop and leave.

[24:12]

And what came up as the first bubble or so within that was a feeling or the recognition that usually when I want to be close to someone, as if I have to leave my own standpoint. Yeah. Well, you too. That's also the case. Relationships often arise from the fact that I look at someone else from my own perspective who does something and that doesn't fit into my world and that creates a distance. that oftentimes relational disturbances occur when I look from my own perspective, look at how does the other person do this, and then that doesn't quite fit into my feeling of how it should be or something, and then that creates a sense of distance. Yeah. Yeah, I think we're always yielding ourselves to others in order to open ourselves to others.

[25:17]

Yeah, I think we... Yielding is, let's see if there is a word for it, to lean in, so to speak, as forethought. Yielding is also when you, and then you melt, so to speak. Yes, to give in to each other, so that we can open up to others. When I thought about whether to come here, which really wasn't much of a question for me, but I thought, well, now I've heard so much.

[26:22]

And surprisingly, I keep knowing that there are moments that I may have heard one way or the other, but not like this. The way that I may need it at that moment. And that is this phrase, the moment before thought arises. And I was completely astonished. Maybe also because that is something I am really working with or that's on my mind.

[27:40]

How can I get there? And there are so many different offers by you of how we can do this. But my own experience is, I would almost say like a, not a spell, Witchcraft. Like a witchcraft. Or like, yeah. Spell. [...] Ist, wenn ich, wenn ich diesen Moment, wenn ich in diesem Moment gehen, also wenn ich nicht diesen Gedanken folge, sondern, sondern im Moment sein will, sag ich jetzt mal, oder, in diesem Moment, in diesem Moment,

[28:44]

Like in the sense, if I don't follow this thought now, but I want to be in this moment, I want to perceive this moment, I keep experiencing that for me this is only possible through the breath. And breath has like the magic of connectivity, the magic of connecting. And since we're in the prologue day, I will tell a short story. Okay. In my first tashin, until the third day, I really tried hard to get along with the breath.

[30:07]

On the third day, I dropped all my presuppositions. And I said to my breath, okay, I can't do this. Why don't you do it? And surprisingly, that worked. That was a huge surprise. It was absolutely amazing to me that this breath was a tremendous surprise for me and that the breath would bring me into a field of breathing or a territory of breathing that I didn't know before. And then I thought, oh, geez, well, if it's this simple,

[31:10]

But it wasn't that simple. [...] So this To now know the breath won't do this all by itself. It won't simply do this. There's this recognition now that I have to actively engage with the breath and bring my attention to the breath so that the breath will then do that.

[32:26]

So there's the recognition that it takes a certain kind of activity. Good. Next. Completely the case. Yes. Ishtar? I keep being astonished for how does it work that in a seminar where we speak mostly, of course we don't only speak, but we speak mostly, To be in the moment before thought arises. Okay. Yes? So that also struck me how just now we had all these stories that were way back from distant past.

[33:38]

But how at the same time we're here in this room and in the moment and how yet all these stories surfaced. For me, it explains itself in a way that these are encounters that have changed people. They tell it and their encounter changes us. And that is just present. We just overcome all these encounters that we have in our lives. And the way that makes sense to me is that these are all encounters that may have changed our lives or that changed people's lives. And these encounters are present for us. The body, yes.

[34:39]

We embody these encounters. And I think that's... And I think that's something one can feel when coming here. That's that kind of intimacy that one can feel here, that we are all people who've experienced so much with one another. Yes. And also, I love Columbo. That was good. Yeah, we're going to nominate him for the Bodhisattva Prize. Yes. Thank you for all these different contributions, because I just learned a lot about breathing. And I thought that there is a moment before one breathes, that one breath can contain a whole lifespan, that one can serve on the breath,

[36:12]

Yeah. Okay. That I found very nice, very good. Me too. Okay, okay, okay. Yes. Yes, a comment on what I hear. I notice that both for me, this topic of the levels and Commentary. I noticed when thinking about steps, stages. The topic of stages and the topic of the moment before thought arises. And also the topic of teaching yourself Buddhism. And also the topic of teaching oneself Buddhism.

[37:26]

And all of these three, the moment, they lead me to one place. And how I would describe this place momentarily would be to cut off the myriad streams. And that's where a question arises of being alone and being connected. I get confused.

[38:26]

Who's saying which? That's nice. Yeah, that is nice. Yeah. Atmar said to me the other day that I said that Suzuki Roshi said the mind which develops Buddhism, is the exact form of our life, of our existence. And I was touched by him telling me that. Because in a way, those don't sound like Sukhiroshi's words. So I'm fairly certain they're my version of Sukhiroshi's words. And then they were Atmar's versions of my words of Sukhiroshi.

[39:27]

And now these are my version of Atmar's version of the English. So that's what we're doing. We're trying to find this common world of practice together. And, you know, I said, by saying I'm not teaching Buddhism, but my feeling is to teach you to teach yourself Buddhism. But when I say that I'm not teaching Buddhism, but that my feeling is So I'm stepping back from teaching Buddhism and leaving it more to you.

[40:44]

But when Susanna said she's heard so many things, etc., I thought, well, yes, I'm sure that's true. But I'm not even trying to tell you anything. I'm just trying to be interesting enough that you keep coming. Because I like seeing you so much. You know, I have to say something that's sort of new and sort of interesting. And when I start using Columbo instead of the sutras, you know that, you know, I don't know what you know. Okay. Yeah, and we have this koan again, among the three bodies of Buddha, which does not fall into any categories.

[42:03]

And as the koan starts out, it says, the original record says, Which one expounds the Dharma? Which one teaches the Dharma? And this is not just an academic scholarly note. To say we should know that the original was such and such. That's there to make to those of us who want to practice with that koan To know that, yes, Dongshan supposedly said, I'm always close to this.

[43:21]

But in the original record, Sylvia, could you hand me your notes? Silvia, can you give me your notes? No, I've never seen anyone take notes like this. I've never seen anyone write notes like this. It actually was inspired by you. Really? But look at it. It's a design. Agnes Martin would be proud of that. If you know Agnes Martin's work. Agnes Martin would be proud of that. That's quite beautiful. I could frame that. So, the original record, like she has, said that he actually said which one, the question actually was, which one expounds the Dharma.

[44:33]

Das darin steht, dass es ursprünglich hieß, die Frage, welcher von Ihnen So the first thing the koan says is disguised as a kind of scholarly note. To make you doubt what Dongshan said or to make you doubt the whole koan. So it's the whole point is to make you make the koan your own. So the statement does not fall into categories. Okay, this is a... When you really look at that, this is a very powerful political, philosophical statement.

[46:04]

Because, you know, we have in the Zen the face before your parents were born. So we can ask, when, I mean, I know, you know, the thrust of Buddhism is like, can we know each other in ways that we don't fall into any categories? Before any thought arises, before any thought of gender arises, Can I know you as gender-free beings?

[47:19]

Before your parents were born. Before it was determined what gender you would have. Before there's a he or a she. Before there's a national identity or a particular culture. So can we come into this room starting this seminar Was the prologue of the prologue day before any thought arrived?

[48:24]

I feel you all, gender-free, culture-free, some kind of presence that goes beyond most distinctions of what a human being is. Ich spüre euch alle als geschlechtsfrei, kulturfrei, vor irgendwelchen Unterscheidungen dafür, was ein bestimmtes Wesen ist. This is the challenge of Bodhisattva practice. Das ist die Herausforderung in der Praxis des Bodhisattvas. The challenge of Buddhist practice. Die Herausforderung der buddhistischen Praxis. And it's politically part of American politics right now and European politics. Of course we have to take responsibility, experiential responsibility for our own identity. And the collective experience of our culture.

[49:34]

And within the collective experience of our culture, there's also the collective experiences of those of us who read the same books and look at the same paintings and listen to the same music. And that collective experience is part of our shared identity. Diese kollektive Erfahrung, die Teil unserer gemeinsamen Identität ist, die muss auch respektiert werden und man muss sich um sie kümmern. Aber können wir gleichzeitig jeden oder jede von uns vor allen Kategorien kennen? And that's, of course, what's going on in America and European politics right now with the refugee crisis and so forth.

[50:52]

And do we have the breadth of experience to be in the presence of all those simultaneously? In other words, among the three bodies that we experience through practice, what about a body A being, a body, beingness, which doesn't fall into any category. Not even these three. That's the thrust of this koan. And you can't think your way to it. Und dahin kannst du deinen Weg nicht denken.

[51:54]

It's to know before thought arises. Es bedeutet zu wissen, bevor Gedanken auftauchen. It's to join in our practice field. Es bedeutet, sich in unserem Praxisfeld zu verbinden. Knowing the distinctions. Die Unterscheidungen kennend. having also the intimacy of the experience of no distinctions, no gender, no national identity, etc. The more you are in the midst of those moments, the more you'll know the intimacy of each of us in the most fundamental sense.

[53:03]

The more you'll know And that intimacy becomes male or female or European or American. But the more you have that experience before any thought arises, before your parents were born, You feel an intimacy in which there's no otherness. Okay. Not something I ever expected to say. What?

[54:11]

He gave me the opportunity chance Okay Now Now we have these various ingredients to work with. Before any categories arise. The mind which develops the practice. The mind which develops the practice. And to discover the teaching as a way to teach yourself, what are we going to do with these ingredients?

[55:24]

And if I'm going to point out the basics required to teach yourself Buddhism, I would say there's two. The first is to develop an attentional stream, an uninterrupted attentional stream. And the second is the intention to develop, to realize an uninterrupted attentional stream. So there's a dynamic here of beginning and end.

[56:48]

Of course, you don't have an uninterrupted attentional stream. Your attentional stream comes and goes, as you said. Yes, but maybe the intention to have an uninterrupted attentional stream doesn't have to come and go. So there's an alchemical relationship between the uninterrupted attentional stream, which is interrupted, and the uninterrupted intentional stream which is not interrupted and that very non-interrupted intentional stream is the chemistry

[58:03]

The alchemy which makes practice work. And that would be the mind which develops practice then. Which develops the practice which teaches yourself. Is rooted in the alchemy of this intention. to develop an unintentional, uninterrupted attentional stream. Okay, so if you accept that, and why don't you accept it, please? I have a little contract here. You can sign up. It's a contract written before any thought arises. And you may have signed it already. before any pen was in your hand.

[59:32]

So if you've signed this alchemical contract, then we can ask, how do we develop this attentional stream? And I think such a treasured possibility should be left to learn too much. Treasure of Monte Cristo. Okay, great. And what time, boss, are we supposed to come back? Three? Two-thirty? It's twelve-thirty now. You're always close to this, yeah.

[60:39]

Well, you may stay then. Maybe in three hours? That's a 1.30. Two hours. 2.30. Three. Two hours is enough for lunch? So we should meet at 2.30 or 3? 2.30. 3.00. 2.45. 2.45. 2.45.

[60:55]

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