Would you share some of what you spoke about with me? He would like to. Oh, please. We talked about different experiences, awareness. When we are taking a walk and watching the flowers and all the other things without thinking. Mm-hmm. but also other conditions which are difficult to describe, of wholeness, And also what interrupts us from being there.

[01:24]

That's habit. But also feelings of sadness. feelings of sadness where we could be, but what we have lost, but also of fear, what we have to give up to get there again. It was consoling for me in all this fight Fight?

[02:34]

You were fighting with each other or fighting with yourself? Struggle. Struggle, OK. Struggle to get here but not to arrive. And in that there was the notion that we are already there but that we distant our sense from it And also another picture, the one of a lawn mower And that it takes a lot of effort in the beginning and a lot of trying and a lot of doing to get... Like a lawnmower? Yes. Not an electric lawnmower. But once it would function, then it would go easily and just by using a fingertip.

[04:13]

Okay, what did you mean by the fear and what you think you have to give up? What do you have to give up? Yes, I don't know exactly, and it wasn't defined there. I don't know it exactly, and it wasn't defined really. Okay, yes. The same group, there was, Frank said, one example, for example, to give up skills, if we bring or develop some skills in our life, like us or other skills. What did you say? Yes, whatever you develop to do well, there we all have developed also attention and a certain awareness.

[05:36]

But if we are dependent on this space to have it, then out of this maybe we have to give up for a while, to widen it in all situations. Yes, much better. In the group, for example, it was said at the beginning that it means an upheaval of skills or skills that we develop or that all actually develop in a way where they practice awareness, can practice easily, and the skills that require it. And often it is the case that we have this space there, also from Gwaslein, and maybe we have to upheaval it, Okay, something else, someone else? I wondered if there is a difference between... Maybe in German it's better.

[06:43]

I'm asking myself whether there is a difference between awareness and presence. She isn't sure whether the presence is the manifestation of awareness or what it is. That's part of our research. OK. Something else? I'm also intrigued by the connection between awareness and presence. And we also had a topic that there are different kinds of being,

[08:00]

We said that there are different directions of awareness, for example, towards the inward or outwardly. For example, when we are eating and eating Oryoki so that we are very present, You really feel yourself in your body, you feel every finger, you feel your breath, and then you don't see the lid coming. And so we are completely in our body, feeling every finger, but then the lid comes by and we don't notice it. And I still have an ideal in my mind, so as in the martial arts or when you throw a pen sometimes.

[09:19]

That the awareness has also something to do with the outside field, so that I can react at every moment, or not react. We got very confused in this discussion. We landed in trance. Where does that belong as a state where you go completely inwardly?

[10:22]

And where you lose the self and the self of the things. And the other pole would be to see the lid when it comes by. Yeah. Sometimes we miss the lid. Sometimes we put it on our head. Yeah, when I was young and impulsive. I was having a discussion with a leading Nietzsche expert, philosopher at the University of California. Yeah, and he was speaking about awareness and so forth. And while he was speaking, I don't know what I threw, but I threw something at him. And it hit his wine glass and it went all over his suit.

[11:40]

And I felt terrible. I wouldn't do that now that I'm old and not impulsive. Plus there's many thousands of moments since then when anybody could have thrown something on me and I would have spilled everything. Okay, something else? We started with the sentence of Suzuki Roshi about the limitations of the thinking and then we tried to grasp the truth and consciousness from our experiences as clearly as possible. and tried to grasp consciousness and awareness out of our own experience.

[12:59]

Yes, that's good. And from his experience, everyone has examples of how being in his experience has become more concrete and better experienced through our practice. Almost everyone had examples how the awareness improved by then practice. as, for example, as physical awareness or perception of the atmosphere. And we then tried to say relatively carefully that this is probably the practice aspect in which this yogic personality part develops.

[14:09]

So we cautiously tried to say that that must be the yogic aspect which is maturing. and we also stressed in this group, that it has a great importance that with the help of instructions and wisdom, a different kind of thinking or a different kind of consciousness is promoted and trained. that with the teaching and with the turning words that there is another... What was it? That also the change of consciousness is trained. Is strained? Changed? Trained. by using words in another context, by learning wisdom phrases and working with them.

[15:20]

Like that. We also started with the sentence of Suzuki Roshi. Everyone had made experiences which are very difficult to describe by words. So when we were talking about it, we noticed that the words don't express the experience. And we also talked about the differences of consciousness between consciousness, awareness and presence.

[16:43]

There was one example when you are terrified that the thinking kind of takes over the experience. So we talked about people who are close to death, when they are at the edge of death and life. For example, if they see an accident Then you can be in a state where without thinking you do the right thing. And sometimes later you feel the shock, but at the very moment you are present and do the right thing.

[18:19]

There was also the distinction, or if there is a difference, if someone is completely present while sitting, so to speak, or, for example, a musician who plays an instrument on stage and completely forgets that he is playing, whether it is comparable or whether there is a difference. And then there was kind of the comparison whether it is the same when we are sitting, Zazen, and, for example, a musician who forgets about himself while playing and kind of is very present in what he's doing. Mm-hmm. And also in extreme situations, how helpful it is to concentrate on one's breath. Okay, thanks. Peter?

[19:35]

He would like to add something? And, among other things, the question raised, which I would like to pass on, is whether in German and American consciousness and mind... Consciousness and mind. Consciousness and mind, under circumstances, one would have to compare whether we speak of different things. But we have not been able to clarify that, so I will pass it on. I do not understand it in German. So that's why I can't translate it yet. So we asked if mind in American means the same as in German, because in Consciousness it's the same.

[20:36]

So I don't understand too much of it. I can't say more about it. There is always a group of three that can prefer it better. We asked ourselves whether German means consciousness. So they asked how the German word, , whether it's closer to mind or to consciousness, where it ranges in there. And we also dealt with the different appearances of consciousness. and yes, in the end, perhaps as a consideration, how far such states of consciousness such as presence or trance-like states have to do with the fact that

[21:41]

The continuity of thoughts is the basis of the ego and is replaced by another continuity. So they were also dealing with the continuity of thinking and whether trance has something to do with this continuity or the interruptions. Of the continuity. Yes. That there is a moment of loss of control where there is no judging. We have a very talkative front row here. Peter? For me, the question is, what are the conditions when I am outside in the night or in nature, for example?

[23:03]

What are these states when I am outside in nature at night? And when I don't name what I perceive. And I even don't say that I perceive. Then there is a specific state. And the question is, what type of state is that? How could I name it? Or maybe shouldn't I name that at all? And then lots of times connected with this state is the feeling of sadness or of fear.

[24:30]

And what is this sadness all about? Is that the sadness of the lost paradise? As a metaphor. Or does it also have something to do with me losing myself? Or has it something to do with my losing myself? For me, the most important question is, what type of state is that? No, you're speaking of your experience or several people in your group had similar experiences? No, it's my experience. But the others in the group, I thought they understood my experience, so they know the similarity. Yes.

[25:56]

Just one thing, because I'm exactly interested in the answer to this question. What is difficult for me, perceiving, seeing things, not naming them, I have no idea what action there would mean. I was just in the morning outside and looking at the tree, or afterwards naming it a tree and seeing other things, And as he asked this question, I'm interested in that, but also I have no idea what then really action in society would mean, for example. German, please. The question he just raised is exactly the same as what I'm interested in. For example, today, when I was outside, I just looked around and looked in the background at something that you plant a tree or hear something that you call a bird.

[27:07]

And in addition to this question, I would be very interested, because I have no idea at all, if it is a reasonable condition, There was one more question now. Yes, please. The question, what is the whole? Is it always just an excerpt of what I'm perceiving? An excerpt, a portion. How do I get there to perceive the whole?

[28:10]

Is it the way to focus on something specifically and then dive into it completely? Is what I experience then the whole? Okay. This is fun. Someone else? Yes? When we listen very intensely to music, Then there was no one who listened anymore. Okay. I hear you. We talk about states.

[29:47]

How long do they last? Okay. Yes. Which consciousness includes the whole? and maybe that consciousness doesn't have any continuity. Good speculation.

[30:47]

In those very deep experiences that people reported, There was an experience of a perception And that perception radically changed something. We didn't talk about consciousness but just about that moment where it happened. And I just want to give an example.

[32:02]

I'll tell you in English. When I was eight years old, my little sister, who was three months old, she was the tenth, I the eighth child, My mother had a lot to do and she asked me to lift the screaming baby out of the bed. And she just said, as an explanation, it doesn't come over the fence. And I did that too. I picked it up over the fence and let it fall. because I thought I could do it on my own, it should just go over there. And it actually changed my whole experience of being responsible. I just told an experience which I got aware of when I was eight years old. My sister Andrea cried and my mother had lots to do. She asked me to lift her up over the bed. Out of the bed. Out of the bed. And what I did is I just pulled her over the bed, but then I just dropped her because I felt like, you know, she can do the rest.

[33:08]

Your mother? The baby. The baby. How old were you? I was eight. Oh. And it was a totally experience that I, from that on, I was responsible. You were responsible after that? Yes. Okay, so now you can take care of my business. That's kind of ridiculous. So, my question is... Before eight, uh-uh. My question is in that direction of the awareness of something was different, what I did. Are you going to the kitchen? Yes. Oh, fooey. Can't we schedule it so people don't have to leave? It's difficult. Okay. So in that sense... Was it awareness?

[34:12]

What was it? In this example, what happened in the moment and what happened in other moments which people had experienced? Was it a moment, was it just the awareness, or what changed suddenly in Kreb, or what actually happened? When I dissolve or dive into everything, what happens with responsibility? If I start anywhere, then you won't say anything else.

[35:30]

And if you want to translate yourself, it's okay, but I'd like you to start speaking first, speak first in German, in Deutsch. Also, sprecht zuerst in Englisch, dann könnt ihr euch auch selber übersetzen, aber zuerst in Deutsch. Does anybody else have something pressing they'd like to say? Drängt es noch jemandem was zu sagen? Something not spoken about particularly so far. Was noch niemand gesagt hat. I would like to talk about all conditions. I think this is something that everyone is talking about. I'm afraid of a certain way that is totally irrational and that then restricts you to the world. And I mean, I think that maybe I can imagine if that is exaggerated, that then

[36:34]

then makes you incapable, then you become mentally ill, but I sometimes feel the beginning of such conditions of anxiety, and I find that I can deal with it better now through meditation, through Sazen, by saying, yes, this is a narrow way, fear and narrowness have something to do with each other, to look at the matter and that the possibilities are greater than what I perceive at the moment. I just want to talk about moments of fear, when fear limits to such a degree that you, or that I, and I think that other people experience that too, become almost powerless.

[37:42]

And meditation… Fear in the face of what? It's not always possible to say exactly what it is. Fear of failure or being found out or whatever. It's irrational. It can be a very irrational thing. And I find that meditation is helpful in dealing with that sort of thing because then it makes it possible for me to step, make a first step outside of that very... It's a very limiting consciousness, a very limited consciousness. Fear can be a very powerful thing. Fear can be very powerful too. It can also have a lot of energy, a state of fear. It can also affect something, and it can also give you energy.

[38:46]

But this energy can also awaken fear in you, I think. I don't know why. I find that it can awaken energy. Fear. It's supposed to, yeah. Okay. In the context of this, at the very end, we were also talking about fear. And that was in connection with the idea that thoughts are limited. That was seen as negative. It became clear to me later that it also has a positive aspect, because that's how it is for me in meditation, in Zazen, that I am in great state of fear, especially through meditation, to lose myself, not to lose myself, to dissolve myself. In connection with fear, we talked about the limitation aspect of language and of thinking.

[39:51]

that it was used in a negative way, for me, it can be also, the way one aspect was that this is one way, maybe the only way to talk, but to transmit. And on the other hand, it was buying fear. And it is an open question for me how to deal with states of fear that arise in Zazen, that are sometimes fear of losing myself and my security. You know, the German word Angst is related to the German word Eng, so that fear in German has something to do with narrowness and being closed in, as it does in English, but it's not as clear from the language. And I feel that something is very close to me, maybe it's the vessels or something, and also that my breath is not deep, and if I can work with it, then I can remove it from the back.

[41:22]

And I feel too that when I experience fear, that if I can work with my breath, that I can sometimes get under it and help to move out of it or move away from the limiting aspect of it. Okay. Now, it's not necessary for everyone in one meeting like this to necessarily... I don't expect that in a meeting like this everyone has a chance to speak. But I would like it if everyone in the seminar at least occasionally speaks.

[42:23]

It's sort of one of the prices of admission. I expect it, you know. Recently I did, as I mentioned, I did a seminar at Boulder, Colorado. And the secretary of the Boulder Zen group, which is sort of a Dharma Sangha group, didn't come this year. Because last year I insisted she speak. And once she got started, she talked quite a bit. But she was so sure I'd do it again, so she stayed away this year. Uh-huh. I think she's British or something.

[43:27]

I don't think that has anything to do with it. Okay. So I think on the one hand our conversation is quite sophisticated. On the other hand it's quite primitive. Yeah, just because we're sort of sorting around, looking around for how to talk about what isn't usually talked about. Now, in monastic practice, it's not customary to speak about your practice with others. But I think even there it's good to talk some. But as we're lay people living in various places, I think we need to speak about our experiences to some extent.

[44:28]

Not necessary to sit down and compare experiences. But a general shared discussion of a similar territory of practice. I think it gives us, on the one hand, it gives us permission to notice things in ourselves. And to have a confidence you're not in a territory completely strange to human beings. And it can help with fear, fear that arises in zazen practice. Okay. So much was said, I'll just wander around in the territory.

[46:06]

Recently there's been quite a bit in the newspapers about cosmic background radiation. Also, kürzlich gab es einiges in der Presse zu lesen über kosmische Hintergrundstrahlen. Left over from the Big Bang. Die übrig geblieben ist vom Urknall. And back in the 20s or 30s, some scientists suggested that there would be such a thing. Und manche Wissenschaftler in den 20er und 30er Jahren haben das eigentlich schon vorher gesehen. But no one thought to look for it. And someone who wasn't looking for it actually began to notice it.

[47:09]

Someone, a group of scientists. And they could have been chipmunk droppings in the telescope. You know, they don't know where they're from. And it could have been some kind of... But when they took out all the possibilities of some sort of problem, error, you know, so what was left over, yes, some kind of background radiation, cosmic background radiation seems to be the case. But even though they weren't looking for it, The fact that they noticed it has to do with somebody had noticed it's a possibility. If no one had, if there was no idea that such a thing, they probably wouldn't, such a possibility.

[48:11]

they probably would have noticed nothing. Oh, it's some aberration or something. Well, noticing mind is something like that. If I don't give you, if we don't have some from the tradition hint, we're not going to notice much. It's taken, I mean, the accumulated experience of a long time of yogic meditators to come to the present day subtlety of practice. I would say there's definitely an evolution in practice from Buddha's time until, well, I don't know, 13th, 14th centuries.

[49:41]

And there's an evolution possible for us too. But there hasn't been much evolution, I'd say, since the 13th, 14th, 15th centuries. But I think... We could find reasons for that. Yeah, it doesn't mean evolution is not possible. And certainly Buddhism coming to the West will be a kind of evolution of Buddhism. Mm-hmm. None of us are really highly refined yogis.

[50:56]

But I think nowadays there's enough people in the West doing it long enough that there's some comparable sophistication in what we're doing. But we're still all fumbling around in stabilizing, noticing our practice. And I think if we have two or three generations making the kind of commitment we're making, we may come up with a widely accepted new idea of what a human being is. What a human being is.

[52:08]

A widely accepted new view. One thing Barbara Duden noticed in her study of these reports of women from 250 years ago And she said it is absolutely clear to her that she lives in a different body than women did 250 years ago. But as different as their experience is from her own experience of her body, Still, those women then described their body in the words of their male pastors and male doctors. Die Frauen damals, die haben ihren Körper in den Worten der männlichen Priester und Ärzte beschrieben.

[53:21]

Also, da kommt schon was rüber, aber es sind dennoch die Worte ihrer Priester und Ärzte. I mean, let's take the Big Bang again. Where are we going to take it? If we can imagine a world which is everything you see, the whole cosmos is a little thing like this, it went boop. That's pretty far out. It's easier to believe in God. But anyway, it looks like that, right?

[54:24]

Scientifically it looks like that. I only mention it to say we live in a very strange world. Which we have stabilized, our part of it, with a very sophisticated kind of evolved consciousness. And we stabilize ourselves in the consciousness we receive from our parents. And most of us have the skills to do that. And it requires some kind of discipline. Okay. Now you start to practice meditation.

[55:25]

And holes appear in this stabilized consciousness. And we're not sure our experiences fit into the way we've stabilized ourselves in our shared consciousness. Are they only anomalies? Or are they windows into a really different way of being? I don't know what we can say, but we can bring the traditional Buddhist experience into our study. Okay. What time am I supposed to start?

[56:30]

Where are we supposed to start? Around six. Around six. It's around six now. Okay. I'd like to see if we can change the schedule so that we don't have to have people leave for meal prep. Maybe we have the evening different or I don't know, something. I mean, it's not that what we're talking about is so important, but it feels like if we have a continuity to tomorrow, it would be good if such a large group of people were still here. Yeah, but it might be just today, because we never had this, that all left, just one was responsible. So I can talk to Dieter, maybe he can arrange it differently.

[57:31]

Yeah, okay, let's see. Okay, I guess you don't have to translate it. Okay, we need a number of experiences or approaches. One approach is not to name, which Peter pointed out. And sometimes poets are actually trying to name something. Some poems are really problematic because they're trying to name what shouldn't be named. I think a lot of amateur poetry is to try to capture uncomfortable situations. But a poem can also be a naming that enters a door. So there's not naming.

[58:45]

There's also using naming, but peeling the names off what is named. And then gibt es das Benennen, aber die Namen wieder zu enthüllen, was benannt wurde. You notice something in the usual way and then you take the naming, the noticing of that, the usual way of noticing it away. Also, ihr nehmt was, was ihr normalerweise benennt und nehmt dann den Namen wieder weg. Okay, so that's another approach. And then we have certain words. You know, I simply, you know, I try to stretch words.

[59:49]

But I still find my own experience and the experience I can share. in the territory of words I can use. So I've used the word awareness in a way that's not common in English. But it's easier to use consciousness and awareness Even if I change the usual meaning of awareness, then do you say consciousness and the swigimum zi, im Gegensatz Bewusstsein zu nehmen und what?

[61:09]

Squigamum Z. And Squigamum Z. Okay. So if I say, well, we have consciousness and we have Squigamum Z, you'd say, no, I don't think it works. So no, nor do I think it works to say consciousness and have some Sanskrit words. So it's actually more effective for me to use a word we all know, but change it than to make up some strange sounds. So we're trying to get free of language, but we're still in the territory of language. But this isn't so bad because that's the teaching of form and emptiness. That it's through form we realize emptiness. It's not emptiness over here and form here. It's form emptiness. So to peel the name off the tree is not the same as trying to not name what there's no territory for.

[62:27]

So we need to explore what we mean by, as I said, as you've said, awareness, consciousness, presence. Are they the same, different? Right now, they're only English words. with some correspondence to German words. And then I tried to tie that to the experience of presence in your hands, in your mudra. And so what I did this morning was a classic example of Zen teaching. Now not classic in the sense of good or bad but classic in that I want you to see what is the dynamic of Zen teaching.

[63:55]

And if you see that you can also see why it's different than other Buddhist ways of teaching. Not better or worse, again, different. And the different ways of teaching in Buddhism enter the territory of teaching a little differently. Okay, what was classic about what I said this morning as a way of presenting Zen? I presented a number of views of a conjunction, disjunction of views. Okay, one, for example, was the sense of feeling the body that your feet are down there.

[65:05]

So that's one view. When I join that disjunction with another view, It's experiencing the body with neither left nor right nor up or down. So you have two views conjoined and sort of disjoined at the same time. And then I counterpose that to the physical practice of presence in your mudra. Notice the classic way of presenting Zen practice. Present a view that's in some disjunction with usual views. And then you counterpose that to a practice.

[66:10]

And then you put that together. I don't put it together. I don't make theories about what will happen. Part of the reason that Tibetan Buddhism has a lot of theories Which are often extremely useful. Zen practice holds back from making theories. It would rather say, okay, here's some views. You can feel a disjunction between that view and your usual view. And here's a practice. Put them together. See what happens. It's up to you to discover. Do you understand this approach of Zen practice? Now, several of you have brought up the idea of wholeness.

[67:35]

Okay, so now we have to ask ourselves, is there such a thing as wholeness? Or is there only an experience of wholeness? And do we experience wholeness because we have no other word for it? We call it wholeness because it feels so whole. But just because it feels whole, is it wholeness? Now, this is actually a somewhat confusing view within Zen itself. A fairly large percentage of Zen teachers teach wholeness. I think that within my experience and within Buddhism itself, that's wrong.

[68:49]

It's more fundamental and accurate to teach neither wholeness or not wholeness. Or something. Yeah. I think for most practice the concept of wholeness or oneness is quite effective. But it stops your practice at a fairly, I would say, primitive level. Perhaps enlightenment, but still a primitive enlightenment. Okay. What do you say?

[69:54]

She's happy with that. Good enough. Primitive enlightenment is good enough for me. They all have little signs. Primitive enlightenment is good enough for me. Okay, so there is a question of, okay, we're not naming. But somewhere are we really naming, kind of looking for wholeness? That's a kind of naming. If you don't really name it all, there's no idea of wholeness behind your movement of your practice. And if you have an idea of wholeness, you'll have... It will guide your practice for sure, your experience. Just as a pedagogic technique, we want to take all... Making the shoe fit away.

[71:07]

Do you have that experience in German, to make the shoe fit? Yeah, okay. Take it away. Take it away. Yeah, I want to take away the tendency to make the shoe fit. Even if there's wholeness, I want to take away that you're thinking there's wholeness. But even better than just playing games like that. is not to have an idea of wholeness. So that's the kind of, shall I say, that's also a kind of naming. Yeah. So I think that's enough for today. come into a practice exploratory practice which uses words necessarily which is based on the actual experience we have the culture we come from which is still open

[72:37]

to noticing perhaps the background mind, radiation, which is not in any category of noticing our culture gives us. Dogen's trying to do that. Why bother? Why bother? Because whatever we are as human beings includes that. Okay, let's sit for a moment.

[73:46]

At the end of my tesho this morning. I started a sentence, I didn't finish. Perhaps more than one, but... But anyway, I said my point is, and then I said something else. So my point is in... trying to introduce you into a existence time, not clock time. In Dogen, most people nowadays translate it as being time, but I think it's more reachable to say existence time. The reason, my point in bringing up this existence time, is that it becomes... a kind of ground of experience.

[77:01]

When you get it, you really find yourself grounded in each situation. Yeah. And then you aren't muddling around in the dark. wondering what does this word mean and your experiences fall into different categories. When you're, as Dogen would say, deluded about time. When you're not deluded about time, Yeah, things are quite a lot clearer.

[78:03]

It's like you get at the underpinnings, underpinnings? That which is underneath that supports. You get at the underpinnings of perception and knowing. I remember I said to Sukhya she once, in the early year of or two somewhere in there at my practice. We were in a car somewhere. And I was driving. I don't think I ever saw him drive. I don't know if he could drive. I never... He couldn't see over the steering wheel. He wasn't that small, but he was pretty small. He always felt very big to me. He looked like Senkin. sinking here but then I'd see a photograph of us and and I looked like sinking so I said to him in the car I said there's no time no such thing as time

[79:28]

Yeah, because I'd been, just my experience and reading also Dogen's Uji. Which is his fascicle, like the Genjo Koan on Uji is his fascicle on time. I didn't, I hadn't experience of time as so much... Spatial extension. And more real as a sense of stopped time. More real, more actual as a sense of stopped time. Stopped time, my own experience, was that stopped time felt real, but the other time felt derivative. Then he looked at me and said, no, there's time. So I had to go back to my exploration. And really, I would say it's taken many of the years since then

[80:49]

To really make use of the concept of time as a useful way of looking at things instead of just saying space, spatial. To enter ourselves into existence time. So that's what I started to try to share with you this morning. Now, it would be nice for me if some of the discussion you've had, you'd share with me from whatever part you'd like. I liked it yesterday, so. Yes. Yes, oh, please, yeah.

[82:13]

We're in the same group or different groups today? Different. And tomorrow we'll be in the same group? You don't know? You haven't? Okay, yes, go ahead. Number one. Ichiban. Okay, we dealt mostly with Not the time of the clock, but more the simultaneous time. And we started out with the hypothesis that you can't perceive time, but only movement. There were lots of examples where we were taking proof.

[83:24]

For example, there were three women in the crypt, and they... In the crypt? Yes, yes. In the tomb? Yes, but in the, yes. In the church. Oh, a crypt. Yes. A crypt for us is where people are buried, like Romeo and Juliet. Oh, okay. This is dramatic. And they were... In a chapel, sort of. Yes, yes. I understand. And the three women were motionless, almost paralyzed, and then three men came, and they were also motionless, and then a fourth one came, and the whole thing got moved. The time was different.

[84:38]

Yes, I understand. Or someone who knows a forest, where an old forest directly borders another forest, Or there are two forests, a new one and an old one. And when you are taking a walk, you can feel whether you're in the old or the new. This I know, yeah. So there were more examples of cats and babies and so on, but the experience was one of movement and then we derived that it was one of rhythm. In one context, we were only interested in the outer time, that we said, there are sometimes the primordial times, for example, one week of Johanneshof, or 50 minutes of psychotherapy, which gives a framework that one can press on.

[85:49]

So we found also that... Why are you blushing, Karik? Blushing. Yeah, blushing. Go ahead. Why are you blushing? I wasn't in that group. And then we found that And the times when we talk about time are often times when we describe discrepancies. So when I'm an observer and I say, her time is faster than mine.

[87:26]

Or when we compare before the conversation was hectic and afterwards it slowed down. When we put on some measuring stick. And we also talked about time when sitting. Whenever you dive into something deeply, it can be the breath or also thoughts, then there's almost like a hole of time. The time disappears until there's the gong.

[88:27]

So we try to explain it if you are moving within and with the context then you kind of flowing with time, but when you are moving against the context or have resistance, when you ask yourself how long will it take or this stupid pain, then we experience duration. So we have three points, this physically experienced movement.

[89:40]

So where we can get into the vibration also of another object, of the old house or something. Or then the measured and observed time. or where there is one pole which you define and then there's another which struggles against it. We also were thinking about what you might have meant by situational time. And with maturation. And then there was the example that when you cook rice, there is a lot of stirring and action, and then you let it sit for an hour, and during that time it matures.

[90:45]

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. So, what else do we have? First of all, I am a bit confused now. He's a little confused and excited about what you will... The question we kept forgetting in the group.

[92:00]

The theme was time. The theme was time. The theme was time. And each one tried to give his own experiences with time. And there were experiences like during lunchtime that the smoke of the incense stick kind of was flowing, floating by and then there was this other feeling of time.

[93:07]

Like a short lightning. And some were talking about space, spaciousness. And we discussed the different time definitions that you gave this morning. And we arrived at that stick that you were showing. that you see the stick at the moment, take it away and see it again visually and be able to deepen the whole thing.

[94:15]

And in the end, somewhere you get this width or these moments

[94:21]

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