I thought of awaiting to perhaps increase participation in this laboratory, that when you bring up something in the discussion that really makes a difference, You get a 10% reduction. Yes. And so I'll just signal, Katrin, when it's worth 10%, I'll go like that. And, you know, if it's really good... But, yes, but if it really... ruins the discussion, then there's a fine.

[01:06]

They say that there's a financial incentive in people's self. Yes, oh, 10% already. She doesn't pay anything, she lives here. Longer vacation. I would like to add to where Peter started. Yes. Can one say that the five skandhas put together the self? Are those heaps or piles which constitute the self?

[02:41]

Those heaps or piles, the traditional explanation, is that all of our experience can be within those five. And none of the five include a concept of self. So the skandhas are an experiential way to exclude the concept of self. We say the five skandhas are empty, but when I put my attention to it, I find or feel that they are quite full. Filled troublemaker, she gets... She just lost two days of vacation.

[04:09]

I'd like to say something for the first and second. The first is form. Yeah. And the second I heard you 14 years ago. It's still true on it. Really, okay. I was young then. I was young then. What I heard was that you discerned pleasant and unpleasant. And what I heard you say also was that in the teaching it's spoken of neutral. And you offered us to practice with the terms of neither now.

[05:23]

And I couldn't grasp the ungraspable feeling yet. And I couldn't grasp the ungraspable feeling yet. This ungraspable feeling, is it something I can feel into it and without, with a neither nor, not naming it? And where there is much more to find, observe and experience than where I can say this is hot or cold. Yeah.

[06:29]

And to further mention the three other skandhas. Let's not go into the skandhas anymore. No? No. That's a whole another seminar. It's an under-seminar. And it has nothing to do with the self. Oh. No. It's just I don't want to go into the five skandhas because it will take a lot of time. What you brought up about the second skanda. Yes, I emphasized that like in a bank of a stream, If one bank is pleasure and one bank is pain, a neutral or neither nor is much deeper water in the middle. And that is an entry to non-graspable feeling.

[07:45]

And of course in English you don't want to say ungraspable, you want to say non-graspable. What's the difference? I don't know. It's like... non-conscious and unconscious. Yeah, so non is a wider category than un. Yeah, undone is different than non-done. Yeah. Undone means you should do it, or it's not done yet. I'm sorry, then I mistranslated this.

[08:54]

Undone, I thought, was to make something, not backwards, but... You undo something, yeah. That's true. But you can also say the house is undone. Not yet done. Not yet done. And it might be interesting that watching Japanese mothers bring up Japanese children, we usually tell our kids, which I notice, you can't do that or you can do that. And if a kid keeps wanting to do something, the mother or father says, you can't do that. And the Japanese have a third category.

[10:00]

The non-done. They just, there are certain requests they ignore. They don't say no to them. They simply ignore it until the child begins to think it's not possible. It's not in the category of something you can do. So they don't say no. They simply ignore the question. I've watched the families living next to me for years. They would ignore the question for weeks. Until finally the kid just gave up and this isn't in the realm of possibility. I mean, perhaps we will come back to the five skandhas.

[11:10]

But as I said earlier, I want to stay away from Buddhist aspects, discussion, practice of self in the beginning of the seminar. Because I think this seminar will be useful. Because I think the seminar will be useful. If you really get a feeling for your own experience of self, and the intractable aspects of self, Aside from Buddhism or the West or anything else, the most important thing is what is your experience of self? And there are aspects of self which you don't even see are aspects of self.

[12:19]

And there are aspects of yourself that Buddha himself in the room could not get you to change. Buddha comes in and says, if you can let go of that aspect of self, I promise you full, omniscient enlightenment. Get out of here. Someone else. Yes. We had a conversation last week about awareness as being that thing that helps you not trip.

[13:22]

If you're about to trip, then it catches you. And self maybe is the planning Excuse me. And maybe self is that kind of planning to walk down the sidewalk, not noticing the crack. Usually with some thinking going on or something. Usually with some thinking going on or some distance between the actual... Is it possible to think about a practice consciousness

[14:24]

that interrupts part of that so that maybe awareness can kick through more often? Is that useful? It feels like, for me, that continuity of self The desire for coherence or a narrative story seems to block. Other parts of the experience, the dynamic is happening but it's not so conscious.

[15:49]

Ist die Kunst der Praxis da hilfreich? Well, the art of practice is important. So let me come back to that. I heard what you said. Ich komme darauf zurück. Also die Kunst der Praxis ist natürlich wichtig. Someone else. Noch jemand? Ja. In one moment I changed your hand. Yeah, we got ahead. And I noticed that the location didn't change when I changed the hand. But it changed when I put the punch here, lower. But it changed this when I did this. This has to do with what we said before, that we locate ourselves in this triangle mostly. It was now changing the location or changing the hands. In other words, you know Deutsch. I noticed that when I changed the hands, touching, the location didn't change.

[17:10]

The experience didn't change. But it changed when I touched differently. Is this related to what Roshi said about locating ourselves in this triangle? Just to respond to your question, I don't think so. And it makes sense to me there isn't too much difference between this and this. If you went into a whole body experience, there probably is a different feeling.

[18:12]

But these are really different locations, so that would be different. And I think that would be different with the triangle or without the triangle. Of course, when you are free of this triangle, where we locate our looking at the world, the difference between here and here is rather big. But it's different anyway, I think. Okay? Yes? No? And non-interfering observing. Non-interfering observing consciousness.

[19:27]

I notice that when the non-interfering observing is observing the breathing, Well, it gets shorter when the interfering of self is observed. It affects the depth of your breath. Yeah, that makes sense. But in the same time, something observes the shift between the two. Yeah. Good, I mean bad, good, it's just what we notice. These are nuances and noticing. The question is, is there a noticer?

[20:55]

What? I don't know what to say. Something or somebody that notices this. A noticer. I don't know. Well, that is an implied question in everything we're talking about this weekend. Is all our actions tied to a noticer? Well, I mean, the example I used the other day is when you have a Like when I drive, I often have a cough drop. A what? Cough drop. A Hustenbonbon. Oh, thank you. A Hustenbonbon. A Hustenbonbon. Yeah.

[21:57]

And sometimes it ends up on my tongue. Sometimes it ends up in my cheek. And I don't know how it got there. I can make a decision to move the cough drop to my cheek. But it moves around all the time without my... doing it. But my tongue does. And when I'm chewing food, my tongue spends a lot of time getting out of the way. It's the teeth that make noise. And it's happening way too fast for me to say, tongue, get out of the way, because here come the teeth. Yeah. I mean, as I quoted Alan Watts earlier, trying to observe the self is like trying to bite your own teeth.

[23:21]

But sometimes we do bite our own tongue. And I noticed I had a habit when I was younger, 14 years ago, that whenever I had a thought that was selfish, or there was an element of self-referencing in my thinking, I would bite my tongue. So I made a vow. Every time I have self-referential thoughts, I will bite my tongue.

[24:29]

For a couple of years at least, my mouth was full of blood. I'm not kidding. All of that, I had this sore tongue and cut up. And I had another one. I can't remember what, that I would trip. I would tend to, even there's no crack on the sidewalk, I would trip if I had some other kind of thought that I was... So my own opinion is that most of our actions I like the decisions made with a coffee, getting your tongue out of the way of your teeth. And the practice of Zen, we could say, is also a process of turning decisions over to the body.

[25:42]

And learning to trust the body and knowing when you can trust the body to make decisions for you. So we could go into that more, but let's not do it now. Anyone else? Someone who hasn't said anything yet. But you can say something, so... You said the narrator's story, we need that, that's what you said? I believe the aim is that we could live without that.

[26:47]

And I have told already but let's say five years ago I had had moments where this was just had disappeared. It was sort of frightening. But is our way towards this or did I misunderstand it? How can you say we need that? Do we need it and what shall we do? Well, I didn't mean to say quite so strongly that it's necessary we need it. In our sense that this is a laboratory. I'm proposing that this is the case. So it's up for examination. Okay.

[28:10]

And if we decide that these are the case, all of them or some of them, then we can ask, is there an alternative? Is there a yogic alternative? Let's say a non-narrative mode of mind. And if there is, then how do you effect that, effectuate that? Okay. you know our narratives are very subtle we had a constellation seminar here a few weeks ago Which I meant to go to.

[29:39]

At least my left brain meant to go to. My right brain I decided not to, I guess. Because I didn't show up. But if you'd called me and activated my left brain, I would have probably come. Okay. So, constellation therapy depends on a powerful sense of narration. And a narrative line that even can be transferred to strangers. So you can have a person, and you all probably know what consolation therapy is like. But in short, one person can have some kind of problem or situation that they want constellated.

[30:56]

And other people then act out the role of uncle, father or an intention or something like that. And it's always interesting to me that usually if somebody is a father, then you choose a male for the role and not a female. In other words, for some reason, they tend to be gender specific. In practice, at least. I would think you could, if you can kind of move the narration of a person to a stranger, you could move

[32:05]

either gender to the stranger. But all the constellation therapists I know say that doesn't work very well. But in Rostenberg we did some constellations earlier this year. And we were in the midst of a constellation. And one person kept looking up. And the group ignored the fact that instead of looking at this person or this person, in certain situations they looked up. And one person said, because one of the constellated identities was God or a higher power. And since everybody, most everyone there were atheists, it kept being ignored that this person in certain circumstances didn't look to this person, looked up.

[33:24]

As if part of the constellation was a higher power or a wider awareness or something. In other words, I'm bringing in some complexity here. that our narrative lines are entangled with other people, too. Mm-hmm. Now, just because you can be free sometimes from a narrative mode of mind, doesn't mean you could be that way always.

[34:52]

And because we're talking about activities, that everything is an activity and not an entity, we're not trying to get to some ideal samadhi and stay there. Practice is the experience of the difference and being able to stay in one or the other or the in-between state. Okay, but more on that later if we happen to get there. Okay. We are always talking about experience. I mean, the aspect of the self is that something changes that someone learns or that someone can experience at all.

[36:02]

You're talking about experience and for the aspect of self, it belongs that something is changing. And I experience this on different levels. I experience on different levels. When I sit and I have the intention of entering awareness then breath is a good thing because it changes. There is a noticing and a localization in the observing and in perception.

[37:10]

And this This change from awareness to consciousness has something to do with the beginning of the language. The beginning of the language? Yes, that something comes along from the language, from the inner language. And the change from awareness to consciousness has to do with the beginning of a kind of language, probably an inner language, which comes to that. Yes, and I need language for different experiences,

[38:21]

And I need language to give a kind of order to different experiences. Yes, and so I think there is simply an I or a self on very different subtle levels. And I think there is an I or a self on different subtle levels. I noticed that when I do it at the same time and feel the sensory side, it helps me. And perhaps the motoric, I don't know, it's sort of coming together.

[39:26]

The doing and the sensation, if I succeed to have this simultaneously, that helps me getting into awareness, right? And I wonder if this has something to do with anatomy, that the centering in the spine is made easier when I try to pay attention to both at the same time. And I ask myself if this has to do with probably some kind of anatomy. If I watch, observe this being centered in the spine, that helps me? To align my attention to both at the same time. That has the effect of being myself being more localized in my spine.

[40:53]

Good. That's kind of the craft of practice to notice those things. Yes. Adding to that what Agatha said. I noticed that one aspect is missing and this is language. And about the observer, über den Beobachter und was bewusst ist? The observer and consciousness, can I do that without language? I don't, I think I find it very, also ich finde das sehr schwierig zu sagen, also ohne Sprache mir bewusst zu werden.

[42:00]

Jetzt bin ich bewusst schon, benutze ich drei Wörter oder vier Wörter. So it will be, that's what you said. Queenie? I find that this is very complicated if possible without language. In other words, to direct your consciousness or your attention, you need language to do it. Yeah, and I need definitely language when I have this narrative story around myself. Okay, so... We could ask a question like, is conscious intentionality inseparable from language? And to relate to that question, we'd have to think of some non-languaged ways we initiate intentionality. I mean, consciousness may be mostly languaged, but is it only languaged?

[43:15]

Okay, so, yeah. In the Qur'an it is said that I don't know if I'm saying it right, but without eating mouth and doing something without hands. And I wonder if this state of experience has to do with something as self or as ego. Where we want to experience something, but we don't want our ego to come in. You want me to translate that?

[44:16]

You would be kind. And some of the cons, the situation is managed eating without a mouth or doing things without a hand. And I ask myself if this has to do with a situation that you experience something with, and you try to... experience and direct probably, or have an intention without a feeling of self, has that to do with keeping the self out? This is what always comes up quite often, meaning I have to do things without a hand. Okay. When you're translating. When you're translating. Do you know what you're saying always? Are you consciously translating or is translating happening? So sometimes it happens without it being consciousness, it just is a process.

[45:28]

Yeah, then it's good and easy. Yeah. Okay, so then we can ask, is there a you doing the translation? Mm-hmm. What you were saying about translation taking place and this is let's say a state which is wished for how can I have this happen without an I wanting it or self being involved in it that is what it's a feeling was doing things without hands but yeah okay good a friend of mine I had dinner with a couple nights ago

[46:47]

And he happens actually to be a physicist. And he said that a questionnaire was sent out to the leading physicists in the 40s or something. Pauli and Einstein and Heisenberg and so forth. And they asked them, what do you experience as the process of insight or the process of coming to something creative. And Einstein was unique in his answer. He said, I have to move my body around. He says, I don't think I move my body around.

[47:49]

And that's something else. Okay. Yes? I have a question for you. If I understood you correctly, is it the Self or is it you who has this intention that this process of redemption takes place? Thank you, Svenjent. There came the question for me, if we work with intentions at all, if we have an intention, if something important is in our practice, who is it or what is it that has this intention? Is that also a self?

[48:50]

So, if I understood Neil correctly, when he said, what is it or who is it who has the intention that the translation process can happen by itself, it came to my mind that when we use intention a lot when we practice, what is it that forms the intention? Is it some aspect of self? Boy, we in the West stuck with the idea that everything has to be done by someone. I just folded my arms. Did I do that or my arms do that? I had no intention of folding my arms. So if I had no intention of folding my arms, why can't you imagine that

[50:01]

it's possible to have almost everything happen with no sense of self. And that perhaps self is something we add to it to make the narration fit. Because, let me ask, we can ask do most of you feel that Because you make decisions, there's a you that makes the decisions. Or is it possible that the context makes the decision and then we think... We made the decision.

[51:12]

So that's something we have to explore. Yeah? I would say that 90% of the time that's the case. But there are 10% or some percentage in which the narrative self makes a decision. And the narrative self, we could say, the narrative self, makes a decision to be in a context.

[52:15]

But once you're in the context, the context makes most of the decisions. Now, I'm not recommending anyone pack the way I pack. Or do the housework. But when I'm in Freiburg, I really don't think. I don't decide when to have lunch. I don't decide when to make the bed. I don't decide anything. I find myself making the bed. Oh, and there's no problem. I don't have any effort. I don't mind doing it.

[53:25]

I find myself ironing my clothes. Yeah, I'm working, and then I get up to get something, a glass of water, and then I find myself making breakfast. And I never have a problem like... I don't want to do this or housework is a chore. I just find myself doing it. It may not be very efficient, but I'm happy. If I had to get to the airport, In 15 minutes, I leave in a car, I might say, well, I better think this through. This room first and then that room. But one of my practices is to stay... Oh, I was going to respond to your... Tomorrow.

[54:26]

No, no, I'll just do it tomorrow. I'll just do it tomorrow. Okay. Now, some of you haven't said anything. Is self a factor in your not saying anything? Or ideas like, I should have something intelligent to say, or, you know, that's not... If self isn't present, you should all be talking once. There's somewhere there's a direction into another extreme. I find it interesting but hard to follow.

[55:41]

You talked about it and called it the leopard space. Changing its spots. Leppert? Leppert, yeah. His name is L-E-P-P-E-R-T. So even if you do this, I'll tell you in the book, that you can even measure it. The feeling, I do this, comes after. So in Mingi it's down there, but you can measure it somewhere, yes. That there's this gap between the lifting the arm and the decision, I lift the arm, which is after the actually lifting of the arm, milliseconds. The decision is a significant number of milliseconds after the body wired up already decides to move. Benjamin led it. Benjamin led it. I read from Robert Sheinfeld who puts his whole life into this.

[56:58]

He says we don't have a chance at all. We do everything and we just follow up decisions or commenting. I think it's too extreme. I hope it's too extreme. It's interesting and fits to this topic. Yeah, no, exactly. And that's something I think was worth examining. To what extent are our actions robotic but actually we think we're making decisions. Yeah, so those are great. We'll come back. Oh, yes. The strongest experience of what we're talking about for me is almost every morning when the alarm clock goes. I don't want to get out of bed, so I stay in bed, and suddenly the body gets out of bed.

[58:23]

And it's quite clear, it's the body. And the strongest experience I have of it, who makes the decision, is the one when the alarm rings in the morning, and I don't want to get up, I want to stay in bed, and at some point the body gets up, and it's clear that the body gets up and not I. Yes. I have the same experience every morning. Except I don't, I couldn't say I always don't want to get out of bed, but I just let my body do it. Well, it's so nice. It is, really. I would actually like to speak. Yeah, yeah. And when I read the last line, I was actually quite relieved to read that there's a necessity for the narrative Because I thought, well, I'm off the hook. There's no problem. Okay.

[59:24]

Okay, if we take... Yeah, go ahead. The question was earlier, at least, what is each of our experience of self? And if I... I think the self I experience as resistance in one form or another. If there's an awareness... And thinking starts, or any kind of narrative, it seems to have to do with some kind of resistance to just being. Okay. What do you resist? Being itself. Yeah, really. Yeah, okay. But you're doing quite well for that. Well, yeah. Yeah. Can you say that again, please? Excuse me. is an experience of self, I thought it was an experience of resistance, in any form.

[60:49]

If a resistance comes to what is, I would say that the feeling that is there, that is me, or that is the self. And then Rashi said, so resistance to the self? Yes. And then I read a Zen book. That was probably a mistake. It's a mistake. It's the first time I came across this teaching, the four marks of enlightenment, are permanence, self, satisfaction, and purity. And I thought that was very interesting if the theme is Zen Selbst. The four marks of enlightenment were permanence, self, satisfaction, and purity.

[61:50]

You want to show me that? Yeah. Okay. Deutsch? Ich habe ein Zen-Buch gelesen, wo... because usually it would be impermanence non-self and so forth Well, paradox. Paradox? Yes. These four things we find in the Paranirvana Sutra. Okay. Do we have a copy here? These things we find in the Paramitas?

[62:53]

Paranirvana Sutra. Okay, so we have something to do tomorrow. And I think it's time to stop. And thank you very much.

[63:07]

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