I see we lost a couple research partners. You know, it's natural that in a group of any size, there's always a few people who have to have whatever schedule they have. But I always get, I always feel the presence of people. When it's gone, I really feel. Because I always feel this presence of people. And when they're gone, then it's just, whoops. So I would like to hear from my research partners on how your groups were yesterday. Yes. A report from Hausch Group. In our group, not everybody was so clear that there is a difference between who am I and what am I. Some thought there is only a semantic difference.

[01:23]

Manche haben auch nur eine sprachliche Differenz geglaubt. One person said, who in my defines my roles in a group or in a family or their relationship to friends and colleagues. And Bhautamayi relates to some substance carrying me through all the changes of life and circumstances. This one person has defined Verbi with the roles that one plays in groups, in family, or even in a group of friends. In summary, throughout all the The positions of the members of the group whom I was found as focused, dense, tighter, concrete, but with some hardness.

[03:07]

And... Rigidity, you mean? Yes, rigidity. And that's a separation between the who and how the who functions. It feels shallow or hollow and it is time-related and comes somehow out of the past. So the wer bin ich would be in summary as focused, dense, narrow, concrete, somewhat stiff, described and that there is a differentiation between the being and how this being works, that it feels soft and hollow and that it has a temporal basis and came from the past. The what am I is more allowing that things come forward somehow.

[04:17]

There is more choice. It feels warmer. What is warmer than who? And there's more mutuality. The what am I allows things to appear and arise more, allows more choice, feels warmer and allows more alternation. One person said it's exciting, the what am I is exciting because it opens to the strange possibility that there could be not anybody behind this. And it feels like a curtain going up.

[05:28]

One person mentioned that we might be often in some state related to what I am in daily life, but we are not aware of it, and when we ask for it, we recover it. It leads to listen to changing feelings. it leads to a larger space, it feels extending, widens up, and there is a losing of borders without feeling of becoming bigger.

[06:37]

It feels expanding, it is a wider space, and It seems limitless without feeling enlarged. It feels sometimes intense but more like a field and not so focused. And some people feel such a feeling through daily life too. And I want to add an experience that I made when I tried to be aware of breath in daily life. There is a shift when I forgot about being aware about the breath.

[07:45]

And when I remember it and come back to it again and be aware again of the breath, this shift compares to the shift that comes when we change from the who am I to the what am I. This is somehow related. I feel that a comparable change occurs when I have forgotten to observe the apes and I remember and observe the apes again, which then feels different. This is a similar change as when I go from the who am I to what am I. And in our group we spent a lot of time discussing about the topic which was brought up in the session before.

[09:05]

It was Roland's question and your answer, and some people were full... Some people cared, some people didn't care. Yeah. But I didn't... Yeah, no, just kidding. Okay. You know, what we're doing here, looking at this what and who, is it's a one way or a version of exploring what is self, the most basic of, among a few, Buddhist practices. Trying to locate, particularly in meditation practice, a self, a graspable self. Anyway, so we're coming at it from this direction.

[10:24]

And I'd hoped actually for us all to gather together last night before dinner, but all the groups broke up before I came downstairs. So I'm suffering a little feeling of loss, but you know who's next. Yes. The first thing that came up when I asked myself, what is the world, someone said, then you feel very sad. This what brings us more into our body. So first we started asking, what is the world? And one person said it makes him sad, this what is the world. It kind of transports him into a more feeling world. Ja, und wenn wir uns fragen, wer bist du eigentlich, mein Gegenüber?

[11:29]

Und wenn wir da erfahren, dass er oder sie so heiß, so alt ist, die Beruf hat, then we found out that if you ask who are you like who are you opposite of me and you ask what's your name how old are you what you're doing what's your job basically it is just an accumulation of information it's not really the what is about that person. So when I ask myself what is this person, I really do have to get involved with what that person is, what defines her and what kind of moves her and so on. And one woman said she immediately had an image coming along with what and who.

[12:38]

And what was kind of a big space and who was much more littler space. Do you want to add something, Christoph? Why do I feel bad now? Because. So then there's a difference in asking what and why.

[13:49]

So if you ask why, then you get a series of becauses as answers. But if you ask what, and then after the what you ask why questions, it gets much more interesting or broader. And you could ask if somebody's sick, you don't ask who's sick or why are you sick, but you can ask what is sick, and then you might just find out it's the tonsils or something like that. Mm-hmm. It's a little shorter than that. Yeah.

[15:00]

There's a koan I was thinking about. Someone's sick and they say, there's one who is not sick. And does the one who's not sick take care of you? And the teacher answers, no, I take care of the one who's not sick. Yeah, okay, someone else. Yes. So the answers in what am I and who am I I can see already in some tendencies in what we've done. We have found out on the question of who am I that this is limited in time.

[16:08]

I find myself in different situations, in different contexts, but also in a different time frame So if you ask who, it's something more defined, it's something more... Temporal and temporary. And you can define yourself. Yes, I'm somebody in a group. I'm a mother. I'm a working person. I'm a bus driver and so on. And when I ask myself the question, what am I, it is limited to the fields of the senses for me, or to the level of the senses, not limited, but I can then answer this, what am I, by using my different senses.

[17:16]

So I immediately have the sentence, When someone speaks to me, I sometimes say, I am completely free. That means that I only listen. Or even when I am outside in nature, I sometimes manage to only hear or only to feel or to smell. So to only observe the different fields of meaning, only in the eyes where I consciously observe them, So if you ask, what? For me, this can answer that much more with my sense fields or something. It doesn't restrain or just restrict only to the sense fields, but that's an image came to me that we have a saying in German. If you listen to somebody, yes, I'm all ear. And so I am sometimes able to just listen or when I'm outside just smell or just hear.

[18:28]

And then she said, but if I of course notice that I'm just listening or just seeing, then it all already crumbles when it gets conscious. Yeah. And we discovered that this is also a spatial feeling or a space containing or something. And this morning when I sat in the zendo and I heard the Han, it felt like all around me was like nothing but just sounds everywhere. Good. Sounds good.

[19:52]

Perhaps someone from the group can say something. So for me I went for a walk this morning and then I understood something because for me just the questions who am I and what am I was quite difficult to understand. kind of regurgitating the kind of impact of what this kind of group did. I think it would be, I would phrase the question differently now, and I would ask, who do I think I am?

[20:53]

And then I could access it differently. And then could you also ask... What does whatness feel? Yes, I would also change the verb. Not think, but feel. When I say, what does whatness feel, I mean something like I said, a subjective object. Okay, someone else. Thank you. Yes? I don't want to report from the group. I just want to talk about my experience with this. Okay. And... It seems to me that both of the questions lead to different states of mind, and the who question more leads to the personality, to all things I'm identified with, so my history, my body, and also my roles, what my superego tells me I should be, how I should behave in this situation, and all these things.

[22:33]

I have always a bodily feeling that it's something tight, like a little contraction inside. Sometimes it's boring, it's always the same patterns, it's exhausting because I always have to do something to fulfil this. I have sometimes the picture, it feels like a little bit scratchy. I don't know how you call this animal. We call it sea hedgehog, this little round. Sea urchin. Sea urchin, okay. Yeah, with the stings around. Yeah, spines. Yeah. And the what question? What was it? The what question is something always fresh and always new, always exploring and discovering.

[23:53]

It's a very wide, open feeling. It's like flowing. So sometimes... There are stones and rocks in the river, or it's a waterfall, but it's flowing. And sometimes it feels like there would be not a cover here, like the heart is completely open, like touchable and vulnerable and... For me, these two questions lead to different states of mind. The question of who leads more to the personality, to everything I am identified with, my history, my body, my job, also how I think I am or have to be, so also what I practice, how to behave.

[25:05]

And there is also such a physical feeling to it, it is somehow, it is narrow, it is, yes, it is like scratchy, so I always have the image, such a contraction, like a seagull internally, yes, that it feels like that. And the question of whether it is true leads to a state of mind where everything is always new, always fresh. where you can always discover something new or research, and where it also feels far inside, like when something flows, like a river, I mean, there are a few stones in it, and sometimes there is a waterfall, but it flows, and sometimes it feels like... Yes? Yes, I wanted to report something else. So a lot has just been said about this picture from Göttingen, and that the question of war is strongly connected with the biographical, that the question of war is also very, very painful, that some of the group, or perhaps all of them, were also experienced in the fact that one

[26:47]

separated from others and always wants to defend this eagle or this personality and has to So I'm reporting from group number two, and this image of the hedgehog has come up already. The sea urchin? The sea urchin and the hedgehog is just ocean hedgehog in German, right? Ocean hog. The others have been talking about that, to swallow the ocean in one gulp. That would be an ocean hog. And the who question is more related to biographical things. It's often connected more with kind of pain and suffering. And that one is usually much involved in protecting this who or what oneself or something like that.

[28:08]

Yeah. As far as this needle is concerned, I once had a dream where I was like an iron, like in a needle, in an iron needle. I had the picture as a child and it fit there quite well. So I had a dream as a kid and it felt as if I was inside some kind of iron hedgehog and I think this image suits here quite well. I noticed that I was showing off a little. I'll try to keep going. We have, I think it's a bit mixed up, we have dealt with the question of hope afterwards. So what I personally wasn't very busy with, so hope, So later we started thinking or questioning hope, and I'm personally quite interested in it.

[29:24]

And we discovered that hope actually means you kind of wish yourself away from where you are, something like that. I talked about this point with Paul this morning, and that it might be better to invest the hope with trust, that one invests in trust, that it slowly ripples around you, grows in you, and this trust is less that you wish to be in another state, but that you have the trust that life is a change anyway and that this painful state is changing anyway.

[30:25]

So this morning I spoke to Paul about this and we thought maybe it's better to have some kind of trust that kind of percolates into you. So trust also in change and trust that this kind of more painful state or definition or something is also going to actually change. Then to the question about the bass, I felt that it can be very easy to concentrate more on what I am. Because this question about who I am is often not only a burden in the group, but it is also something you learn about this question about who I am. So for me this what question really comes like a relief because this who question is not only kind of

[31:46]

kind of painful, but on the other hand it's the thing that repeats itself over and over again the whole life long. So it's kind of actually a boring question. Yeah, okay. Yes? I was also in this group and for me the difference wasn't so big whether I ask who I am or what I am. So I was also in the same group and for me the difference of who am I and what am I wasn't such a big question. Difference. For me there are two questions who I am. One is the kind of societal more common language. And the other one is when I sit and I kind of rest with this question, who am I?

[32:58]

Then also that question leads me to who I am and what is here right now at the moment. And also through the who question I can feel that this is just an activity of holding. And then they conflate the what and who question into this subjective object activity. Okay. Noch eine andere Thematik hatten wir. Wie komme ich in Kontakt zu anderen Menschen, ohne eben dieses langweilige Rollen austauschen?

[34:22]

Then we had this other theme. How do I get in contact with another person without this kind of boring exchange of roles? And then we did find different accesses of how one can actually get through those various levels. One would be that you consciously breathe with the other person. And then suddenly something else in the conversation becomes more important. But that we also do need this I that's functioning, it's not just defined or kind of bordered in by negativity or something like that, negative connotation.

[35:47]

Okay. Good, thanks. Someone else? Anyone else? Yes. I'd like to tell what happened to me yesterday. I went for a walk and I asked myself, do you really want to continue that path of breath? And then the answer came, I don't want to go back into this swamp of thoughts. And the answer was, I do not want to get back into this swamp of thoughts. And then the thoughts suddenly were gone for five or ten minutes. And there was nothing left. There was no family, no Johanneshof, no job. There was nothing left, no family, no Johanneshof, no job and all that.

[36:55]

There was just this paved path, the field and the birds. And I felt very lonely. There was just nobody there. I was there. So you went on vacation. Sorry? He went on vacation. But you needed somebody on the vacation with you. Yeah, I understand. Yeah. The WHO question we notice is something that's always some measurements going on and a whole load of tools and templates are required. And in the WAS question? And in the what question, there are no more tools, and it's just sensory impressions carried by the breath.

[38:17]

Okay. Anybody else want to say anything? A move the Buddha made during his lifetime, as far as we know, was to shift, to create a contrast with what's now called Hinduism, the Indian religion of the time, which emphasized a permanent and transcendent self. He wanted to represent a contrast to what we now know as Hinduism, but that was the religious environment or philosophy he had.

[39:29]

They believed that there is a transcendent, permanent self. he emphasized, in effect, the body as self. Okay, now, the whatness of us is more the self as body. Now, What we're talking about here is where do we establish our sense of identity and our sense of continuity? And what do we emphasize in terms of quantity of time or importance or... And what do we define as quantity of time or as important for us?

[40:41]

Now, I think all of you, most of you have gotten a feeling for this, you know, the difference is simple. The difference asking what we are, the difference between asking what and who. And I also think the example I've used recently is if there's something terrible happened like a tsunami recently, And after the water recedes, we find all of us are hanging onto a tree. We all have a very common view of what it is to be alive. We're all glad the water's down. We're glad we seem to be alive. I'm glad each of you found a tree.

[41:51]

So this is actually a kind of common vision. It's a humanity, a humanness, a whatness we share. And when something like that is pressed upon us, like I know a number of people who were in New York at the time of the World Trade Center destruction, People speak about how for some weeks there was a kind of elation or good feeling people had with each other. And after a few weeks it disappeared.

[43:04]

So amongst people, not about their situation, sort of. Among people who... So we feel something like that in a big storm or, you know, big snowstorm or something like that. And it emphasizes some commonality we have together in the world. And often a kind of elation goes with that. Okay. Yeah. Why does it go away? Why can't we always feel it? And in practice, I think we sort of always feel it.

[44:04]

Well, we can. Now, one of the main practices of the Four Foundations of Mindfulness and this whole There's been centuries of exploration of what we are and we can't do it all today. But just this one example that you notice your four elements. Which are simply earth, water, fire, and air. But you experience your own solidity and fluidity. And the motility, the heat, the aliveness of the body. Motility is for movement?

[45:16]

Yeah, movement, yeah. And the space of the body. And so forth. Okay. But you also experience this with others. So when I meet somebody, I meet their what-ness. There's an emphasis on the what-ness, not the who-ness. No, I don't mean that there's no who-ness, but the emphasis is on the initial impression is taken in the what-ness. Maybe it's like falling in love. You notice the what-ness of the other person. Oh, she looks nice. Or he. Okay. So there's this sense of the physicality, the solidity, the aliveness of the other person.

[46:43]

And this is not comparative, it's just a kind of shared what-ness. And that's a kind of starting point in every situation. So it's a shift in emphasis. And it makes a difference in how we feel connected. And I think that, again, since I've been reading this book of Temple Grandin, You know, with a horse, the whiteness of a horse is fantastic. And... Rosemary has these fantastic pigs, huge pigs.

[47:55]

When I first saw them, I didn't know how they'd react, but I wanted to jump in with them and say, I love you. The pig might have said, fresh. Okay. Yeah, but each person has this kind of presence and power. We notice it in babies, and we notice it in animals, but we don't notice it in adults. You can see, I can feel a person who has practiced a lot. There's a kind of physical presence in how they're just standing. You know, like I say, practice in edica.

[49:01]

Yeah, pick the longest line. Yeah, pick the longest line and just enjoy standing there with these animals around you. You don't have to rush and check out. Okay, so I think it's time for a break. But we have some interesting things to do, I think.

[49:55]

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