I want to warn you that There's a great deal I'd like to offer you today. So there's some danger of too much of a good thing. I'd like to begin by addressing this issue of vowing to hear the true Dharma and to say to you that my current understanding about this hearing the true Dharma is that we hear the true Dharma

[01:23]

in a face-to-face encounter with the Buddha. Or you put it the other way, when you're here in the Duryodhana, you realize you are now in a state of being face-to-face with Buddha. Hearing the Dharma is not the end of the story, it's actually the beginning of the actual noble eightfold path. The Buddha Shakyamuni appeared in this world and met people face to face and looked at them and they looked at him and he talked to them and they listened to him and they talked to him and he listened to them. They had some conversations. Did everybody know about that supposedly historical fact? That there was this person who met people and they had these conversations?

[02:34]

And while they were having the conversations, on quite a few occasions, the student, for the first time, heard the true Dharma. The Buddha is tuned into the true Dharma steadily. He's hearing it all the time. And because of hearing the true Dharma, the Buddha is kind of interested to talk to people in such a way that they will hear the true Dharma. And that seems to have happened. But the point I want to make is in my conversation with you is that the Buddha's conversation with the people, you know, what he was saying to them was not the true Dharma. It wasn't the false Dharma either.

[03:39]

It's just Buddha talking to people who maybe have not yet heard the true Dharma. However, he was very careful about what he said and not to compare myself with anybody, I am sometimes careful about what I say. What I say, and I think I understand that what the Buddha said to people, is a way to get people ready to hear the true Dharma. What I'm saying is not the true Dharma. So if you don't think it's the true Dharma, fine. I don't think it is either. And if you don't think it's getting you ready to hear the true Dharma, talk to me about it. I'll talk another way. The Buddha uses the example of, you know, kind of like somebody's at the bottom of a mountain, you know, they're all hemmed in by mountains, and feeling kind of, he doesn't say this, but feeling not so good.

[04:39]

And someone takes their hand and says, let's go someplace together. And they walk up to the top of one of those mountains and the person then gets to see over the mountain to another world which they couldn't see. And the friend didn't tell him, over the mountain there's this great view and you'll be able to see the world is not just this way. He doesn't do that. Maybe sometimes he does, but anyway, mostly he takes people's hands and takes walks up to the top of the mountain and lets them see for themselves. When they see, they see the Dharma. His hand-holding was necessary, but it wasn't the true Dharma and they didn't hear it until they got to the top. So I am sincerely talking, having conversations with you in hopes that we will hear the true Dharma, that we will see the true Dharma.

[05:46]

And people do not get themselves ready. Thinking that we can get ourselves ready is not false Dharma, it's just illusion. In our interactions with people we may be able to get to a place where we can hear the true Dharma. So, for example, we sit in a group like this and we together vow to hear the true Dharma. This is part of the process of getting ready to hear it. My intention is to speak with you and listen to you in conversation in order to realize the vow to hear the true Dharma. Once we hear the true Dharma, then I will now refer you to this vow, the Zen Master Dogen's vow to hear the true Dharma, and then when you hear the true Dharma, changing it slightly, upon hearing the true Dharma, upon meeting it, we shall renounce worldly affairs.

[07:05]

Now, to some extent, we're trying to renounce worldly affairs. And trying to renounce worldly affairs contributes to the opportunity to hear the true Dharma. But once you hear the true Dharma, renouncing worldly affairs will be much easier. And it says, once you hear it and meet it, you will renounce worldly affairs. What are worldly affairs? Last night I said, you know, in the ceremony, to renounce distractions from the Buddha way. To give up distracting yourself from your meditation practice. Now you're trying to give up distractions. That's why you came to this retreat. You thought it would help. Probably it did. But there still may be a little difficulty in giving them up. Some people have already confessed they're thinking about next week, going back to work, etc.

[08:14]

Renounce worldly affairs means renounce looking at the shore. It's okay to look at the shore, you know, out of the corner of your eye. But don't, like, look at it too long, otherwise you'll think, it's moving and you're not. The practice is to look at the boat. You can see the shore, you know that there's a shore around the ocean that you're riding the boat in. The hard thing to do, actually, is to not get caught by the scenery and forget about looking at the boat. If you forget about the boat, you'll think the scenery's moving and the boat's sitting still. So again, the practice is to study the self, not to become enchanted by the other.

[09:22]

If you see something lovey, lovey, lovey or lovey, if you see something, it's okay. But don't spend too much time there without checking out, what's my intention here? Come back to be aware of the pattern of your thought. Don't lose sight of your mind when you look at an object. So, yeah. So it says that when you hear the true Dharma, you will renounce worldly affairs, and when you renounce worldly affairs, you will maintain the Buddha Dharma. When you renounce distractions to Buddha Dharma, then you can maintain it. And maintaining the Buddha Dharma, the great earth and all living beings together will attain the Buddha Way. Not just you, the great earth and all living beings will realize the Buddha Way.

[10:27]

or another way to say it, is that after you renounce worldly affairs, you will be able to maintain the Buddha Dharma. In other words, you will be able to keep your eyes closely on the boat. It will be a lot easier. Again, in the meantime, We come to a retreat where there's no TV, no movies, etc., except, you know, us making the other people and so on a movie. But at least we're not intentionally going someplace to distract ourselves from giving close attention to the boat. Even when we get here, we still have a little bit of difficulty paying close attention to the boat. Paying close attention to the boat also gets us ready to hear the true Dharma. Then again when we hear the true Dharma it will be much easier to pay attention to the boat. In the meantime it's going to be a little difficult, or really difficult, to keep your eye on the boat, or as we also say, keep your eye on the ball.

[11:38]

One of my friends is a golfer and I went one time I went to a driving range with them and he said, keep your eye on the ball. They say that in golf sometimes. Keep your eye on the ball. Because sometimes when people are going to hit the ball they're swinging the club towards the ball but then before the club gets to the ball they're looking down to the freeway, the fairway, to see where it's going to go. Or they're wondering, will it be a good shot? Or they're behind the ball thinking, you know, is my swing good? They're looking at their swim. Keep your eye on the ball. It's hard. We have other things to do. But if we can keep our eyes closely, good. And again, someday, if we hear the tridharma, it'll be a lot easier and then we really will be I don't know what to say. We're really engaged in the practice and it will be much easier.

[12:47]

But the practice we do after we hear the true Dharma will be the same practice that you have been doing somewhat throughout this retreat so far. Almost everybody I talk to has been practicing Dharma at least part of the time during this retreat. Another way to say it is, when we hear the true Dharma, we will renounce worldly affairs and maintain the Buddha Dharma, and then in doing so, it will become clear that all things are without abiding self. And when all things are without abiding self, the great earth and all living beings attain the Buddha way. And I just mentioned right now and I'll mention it again.

[13:53]

However, don't get the idea that this realization, that this attainment is something that becomes the object of your consciousness. Or as the other one says, don't get the idea that this realization necessarily becomes one's own knowledge and view. And I thought when I read that Well, it's my attainment, why can't I know about it? You might. It's not like against the rules to know that you attain, to know it. But although you know it, it doesn't, your realization isn't an object of your consciousness. Your realization is your consciousness in a realized form. You have realized the enlightened consciousness. You don't get to then see the enlightened consciousness over there. You are, you have realized it. So don't get the idea that when you realize it, you're going to get to see how you've realized it. So a lot of you don't have the problem of seeing that you've realized it.

[14:58]

But when you realize it, you also won't have that problem, most likely. That's nothing against your realization that it's not an object of your consciousness. Because again, your consciousness is now realized. So it's not going to be an object of itself. Let's see what ... there are several, many other things I want to talk about. I think maybe I'll say this. Someone said to me that she was experiencing the question arising, is studying the self important?

[16:16]

The question was arising in her mind strongly and over and over. And And I said to her that I just wanted her to know that I was not going to answer that question and say, yes, it is important. I responded to her, but I did not say, yes, it is important. I'd been, as I said, the drum's gone now, but I've been banging the drum, study the self, study the self, or I've been banging the drum. To study the Buddha way is to study the self. But I appreciate if somebody would say, is that important, what he's talking about? And if they ask me the question, I don't want to answer it. I will respond by saying, I don't want to answer. I appreciate that the question would go on.

[17:21]

I think that the way is not to answer questions, but to ask them and see what the response to the question is. not to answer. And there's a big danger of answering questions like, is practicing Islam important? Is practicing Christianity important? Is studying the self important? And then say yes. And then you say yes, right? And that's it. It's over. It's dead. It's substantial. And then if anybody doesn't think it's important to study Islam, we've got a problem. Because we've answered the question, it's important. And if they don't agree, we've got problems. But if some of you wonder if it's important to study Islam, and somebody who's studying Islam is wondering if it's important to study Islam, you can be friends.

[18:25]

But if you say, it's not important to study Islam, or it is important to study Islam, If you say that, then we have the seeds of war. If I don't know if it's important to study Buddha Dharma or the Buddha way, if I don't know, or I shouldn't say I don't know, but just I ask that question, then I can talk to even people who are sure that it's important to study Judaism or Christianity. I can talk to them. Because I don't know if I, I mean, I don't, I haven't answered the question that it's important to study Buddhism, Islam, Christianity. I don't know if I'm a frog or a falcon. I don't answer the questions.

[19:28]

So I can have conversations with people. And in those conversations we can hear the true Dharma. That's what I think. That's my intention. That's the shape of my consciousness, which I am telling you about. Is learning the Buddha way important? Is giving close attention to all our actions important? I said, I repeated the teaching that giving close attention to all our actions will be a situation in which it will become evident that all things are without self. And the Great Earth and all living beings together will be relieved of suffering and distress.

[20:30]

I said that. Is that important? I don't answer the question. And I think it's good to ask, after you hear some astoundingly wonderful statement like that, or a statement about how wonderful things could happen through practice, I think it's good to say, is that important? As a matter of fact, there's a number of Zen stories like that, where somebody hears some wonderful thing and they say, well, what's the point of that? Or, want to dance? So, are all these wonderful practices important? Are all these terrible practices important? Are all these easy practices and hard practices important? So then, maybe it's time to say that you could say, what we're doing, or you could say, attending to what we're doing, Suzuki Rishi said, what we're doing, but I would now say, attending to what we're doing is far too important to be taken seriously.

[21:37]

So I say it's important, but if you ask me if it is, I don't answer and say yes. And when I say that it's important, that thing should not be taken seriously. And one way to not take it seriously is the practice of observing your karma The practice of observing karma is the key to solving human problems. The fundamental human problem is karma. Studying karma is the cure of the fundamental problem. I say that. And some of you have been studying your karma during this retreat. and getting kind of overwrought in the process.

[22:41]

But also then when you notice that you're overwrought you have been self-medicating yourself. You have been self-medicating by practicing tranquility right on. And so you've noticed that back, that interplay between insight work, are you hearing me okay? Insight work and and tranquility work. Many of you are going back and forth. But another thing I would suggest to you is while you're practicing, while you're looking at the pattern of your consciousness, as you're looking and meditating on your view of your relationship with the world, that's the same as looking at karma. that you let your energy descend, keep your energy descending while you're doing this meditation.

[23:45]

If possible, feel centered below your navel while you're looking at this very dynamic drama of you and the world. Because watching that drama, it's possible for your energy to move up into your head and your head to get hot and to blow a fuse. So while you're doing this insight work, studying your karma, studying your intention, try to stay centered and feel a lot of energy below your navel. And even in sitting and walking and also out in the world all day long, as you're watching, here I am interacting with the world. Okay, you're studying karma, that's good. But have a lot of warmth down here below the navel.

[24:51]

Feel that warm, full energy down there. And then that'll help you not get up in your head as you look at your relationship with the world. So right now I'm trying to feel myself down there, feel grounded down there, feel energy and warm down there while I'm actually talking to you and watching my relationship with you. In other words, I'm trying to watch my karma moment by moment during this talk. But stay down here at the same time, otherwise my energy will often tend to rise and get up in my face and neck. One of the nice things about Tassajara Zen Mountain Center is that it doesn't have a high altitude but there's something about the shape of the mountains and the practice there that I notice more quickly when my energy rises into my face.

[25:59]

And then, of course, oops, time to go down to the earth again. Someone said a lot of people are lying on the grass out here. Good. Go out there and touch the ground. Ground yourself. What I'm saying is not necessarily heady, but it's the kind of stuff, if you contemplate it, you can get heady. So please take care of that, like right now. Feel grounded below your navel right now. Here's something which I've said before but I want to say it again.

[27:09]

It may have gone by too quickly. If we pay close attention, moment by moment, or as you say, moment by moment, moment, moment by moment, moment by moment, you said a moment, you said moment, moment by moment, moment by moment, pay close attention, it will become clear that all things are without self. Once it's clear that all things are without self, then another revelation will come, and that is how those things without self are the manifestation of the entire universe. So first you see selflessness and then you see, in a sense, Buddha nature.

[28:13]

You will see, first of all, that things are selfless and then you'll see that everything is the genjo koan of itself. So not only things have this quality of being ultimately empty, but they are also the manifestation of truth. They're empty, which is true, but also they are the manifestation of the truth, of themselves. And then again, don't imagine that when you realize this, this will be the object of your consciousness. Someone said to me, you know, if you're drinking a cup of tea, aren't you supposed to just drink the cup of tea?

[29:35]

Doesn't seem like a problem when you're drinking a cup of tea, just to drink the cup of tea. No? It's okay? Well then what about watching your intention while you're drinking the cup of tea? It can seem kind of awkward to be aware of your relationship with the universe while you're drinking a cup of tea. But it seems simpler just to drink a cup of tea. However, right there is, there is some, you do have some view of your relationship with the universe. You have, there is some view, probably, of the relationship between you and your hand and the cup and the tea and the room There is some awareness of that. But it's possible, you might think, that you feel very awkward and artificial or something and making things overly complicated to notice all that's going on. I can see that. I agree.

[30:40]

But sometimes people might hear the instruction that you're just supposed to drink a cup of tea as though you're not supposed to look at all this. almost as though you're supposed to ignore your karma while you're drinking a cup of tea. And some Zen teachers talk like that almost. But again, I think what they're saying is they're talking to people, usually, who are paying close attention to what they're doing. They're looking at their intention. And to those people, they kind of say, you know, if they're drinking tea, they kind of say, drink the tea. I think what they notice is that these people who are paying close attention to the activity of drinking the tea are taking this meditation too seriously. They're kind of, they're kind of, what do you call it, they're substantiating the practice

[31:43]

of looking at their karma. And the teacher wants them to lighten up because that will help them see more clearly what they're trying to be able to see. So part of the balance here is between rejecting awareness of your actions and not studying karma on one side and the other side overly substantiating and reifying the practice of studying and that which is studied. But that which is studied is already reified but you can now make the study of that which is reified substantial. And that's getting off track too. So we have to help each other balance between these. to encourage each other to pay attention to what we're doing without taking it seriously.

[32:53]

And even if practicing it... And one of the ways to not take it seriously is to feel your energy below your navel. Another way to not take it seriously is to take a break, rest, and practice tranquility. There's lots of ways to not take it seriously. But not take it seriously is the instruction given to those who think something's really important. So you see these stories of not just Zen teachers but teachers of many traditions seeing people who are really sincere and telling them to lighten up. But you don't tell the people who are insincere to lighten up. Usually you don't. Unless they're like, you know, insincerity is their school and they're kind of self-righteous about it.

[34:03]

You know, they're fundamentalist insincere people. Now, I hesitate to mention this, but I'm going to. And that is, I mentioned this earlier, that if you are seeing your relationship with everyone, like now I'm looking at Monica, now I'm looking at Elizabeth, now I'm looking at Joanne, now I'm looking at Lloyd, okay? As I look at them, I'm now, the pattern of my consciousness is, I'm looking at them. And simultaneously there could be like, I could say, as I look at them with my blue eyes, I hope that their eyes clear up and they see the true Dharma.

[35:07]

I could feel that way at the same time. I could think that way. And thinking that way is my intention. Thinking that thought means that my intention has been shaped in that way. And There is a thing called grandmother mind, which is that you make every single action, in a sense, a Buddhist ritual. Or not even a Buddhist ritual, just a ritual of liberation of all beings. You make every act like that. So when you or when every action you have is infused with the intention to help people, that action has just become a ritual of helping people. It isn't necessarily help people at that moment. It's a ritual of helping people.

[36:08]

And there's a, for example, in the writings of the Zen master Dogen, when there's a chapter on washing the face and there's a chapter on going to the toilet, And in the chapter on washing the face, he goes into, looks at the various phases, the various physical actions involved in washing the face. And also in that chapter, the chapter is called Washing the Face, but there's also a section on brushing the teeth. So when it comes to washing the face and brushing the teeth, he brings the attention into the physical action and then every different phase of the physical action comes with a verse, a poetic vow that's said while doing that action. So like, as I brush my teeth, I vow with all beings that they will develop teeth strong enough to gnaw through all attachment."

[37:28]

Pardon? What? No, you don't say it out loud. You're thinking it. You're thinking while brushing your teeth. You're thinking it. And you don't say it while you're splashing. Now as I rinse my face in this water, I vow with all beings that we may plunge into the ocean of Buddha Dharma and save all beings. So he has phrases like this, which he says to his monks, and then these monks probably, maybe they actually learned those things. If you go to some Soto Zen temples, they have these verses of Dogen on the wall. And monks learn them. At Tassajara also we have a beautiful bathhouse. Tassajara is blessed with these amazing thermal hot springs. So there's a bathhouse there, which people come from all over the world to enter the waters. And at the altar before the bathhouse, there's a verse which goes, Yokumoku shintai tougan shujou mukushu.

[38:39]

We say, Which means, now as I bathe body and mind, I vow with all beings to be pure and shining with in and out. Or may all beings be pure and shining with in and out. So that's Dogen's phrase. So the monks would learn those and chant those when they take a bath, when they use the toilet, when they brush their teeth. And then there's a chapter in the Avatamsaka scripture, the Flower of Dharma scripture, a whole lecture of scripture. But that goes in more detail. When you meet someone on a bridge, when you're crossing the bridge, when you get to the other side of the bridge, when you get up in the morning, when you get out of bed, when you brush your teeth, when you go to bed, when you're in the bed, when you pull the covers on, and you can go on, when you arrive at the gas station, when you pick up the nozzle, when you open the thing, when you pour the gas in, when you close the thing, every action, you have a verse.

[39:54]

They have a verse. And the monk is also encouraged, make up your own, because there's more actions than this whole sutra can, of course, describe. There's no examples in the scripture, for example, of, you know, when I, you know, eat poison, or when I try to hurt people. There's no examples like that. There's more ordinary things, you know, like just daily deeds that we sort of have to do to get through the day, like wake up and go to sleep. The basic structure. But anyway, they actually are proposing that you... that people live like that, actually think like that. But it's kind of awkward. even in a monastery, to think like that. Every step. For Buddha. For Dharma. For Sangha. For Buddha. For Dharma. For Sangha. That's why they call Grandmother mine.

[40:57]

Because the Grandmother doesn't have any trouble to say, For the little darling. For the little darling. This is for you, sweetheart. This is for you. This is for you. This is for you. Can I get you some more? This is for you. I'm for you. What do you want? You take the little covers and you put them on. This is for you. I'm putting them on you because this is for you. Now it's time for you to get up. That's for you. Now everything is easy. This is for you. This is for you. The intention is right there. It's very clear and it's beautiful. Now how about the intention? This is even for your children. This is for my darling little tyrant. This is for my darling little darling. And this is also for Buddha. This is also for Dharma. When I got married, Suzuki Roshi had passed away already, but his wife was still alive. And after the ceremony, she came up and she said, congratulations.

[42:02]

And she said one more congratulations from Suzuki Roshi. When you give a gift to someone, like a congratulations, that's lovely. And then you can also say, and also Buddha is here and congratulates you. You can say it out loud or you can just feel it. Congratulations, Alan. And one more from Buddha. Congratulations, Carol. And one more from Buddha. I want Buddha to... to congratulate you too. I know Buddha does congratulate you. I told you all the Bodhisattvas are graduate. But to think that way, it's outrageous and awkward, but that makes everything into an enactment of Buddhadharma. Or at least that's your intention. Maybe it doesn't quite completely, but that's the intention.

[43:05]

That's the grandmother mind. And then someone said to me, what about going to the movies? It's pretty hard to watch the movie and watch your intention at the same time. And I thought, yeah, it is, isn't it? I propose that after you hear the true dharma, it won't be difficult anymore. That when you look at the movie, you won't be just looking at the boat. I mean, you won't just be looking at the shore. Like if you look at a movie that is a picture of some people in a beautiful boat, you know, on the beautiful water with the beautiful people and the beautiful landscape, you won't just be looking at the shore. You'll simultaneously be looking at the boat. Once you get through Dharma, you'll be able to do that. Before that, it may be a little hard. Maybe kind of like, well, should I look at my intention or look at the shore?

[44:07]

If you look at the shore, and while you're looking at the shore, you think, I, how, and I want to benefit all beings by looking at this shore, by looking at this movie. If you actually think that, at that time, you're looking at yourself. be looking at the boat. If you notice that you want to watch this movie for the welfare of all beings, you're looking at yourself while you're looking at the boat. And I thought of the example while I was talking to this person about going to the movies. If I go to a performance at my grandson's school, you know, where he's doing some sound and dance with the other kids, I'm not really going to, you know, look at the shore. I'm going to give myself to my grandson. It's not that entertaining, this show. But it's wonderful for me to travel long distances to present my body to him, to let him know that he's supported by me.

[45:21]

So it's very easy for me to keep in touch with my intention. It's like, support grandson, support grandson, support grandson. That's what it's about. It's not like, well, what's grandson doing? And, you know, and not be aware of what I'm doing. I can see what he's doing, and it's delightful, but that's not distracting me at all from, I'm mainly here for you. When people come and talk to me about practice, it isn't that I'm going there to distract myself by listening to them. I hope. Still, even though I said this, this whole thing's too important to be taken seriously. So sometimes you get so wrought up you should go to the movie and just look at the shore. Forget about practicing this very important practice. Forget about it. Let it go and just practice tranquility by watching a movie. Sometimes watching a movie is a way for you to calm down. Because you're watching the movie, in the scene there's just a scene.

[46:23]

You're totally riveted and you're not thinking about, well, do people approve of me? You know, am I going to get a raise? Does my wife love me? You don't just like zap, you know. You're actually practicing shamatha. And when you walk out of the movie sometimes you feel really calm. But sometimes the movie is such that you don't actually practice shamatha and you come out upset. So it's Again, there is this grandmother mind, which is very important in the tradition, but it's too important to be taken seriously. And sometimes you should just let it go, calm down, relax, and play. And then when you start playing, you'll be back into it again. So you might think, okay, I'm going to this movie and I'm going to the movie.

[47:33]

I'm not going to practice meditating on my karma for part of the movie, at least. I'm just going to just relax and enjoy the show. But you might also sometimes see if you can practice watching the boat in the movie. See if you can actually start practicing. After you relax, see if you can start practicing. And actually, as you know, as you may know, there's people called film critics. And they, sitting in the audience, they have a job to do. And they're looking inwardly to see what the pattern of their consciousness is. They're observing their thinking, and they're either taking notes on their thinking, or I don't know if they're allowed to bring in little... recorders talking to them during the movies. Maybe when there's a whole bunch of them, they're all talking. I don't know what's going on. Anyway, the film critics are actually observing their consciousness while they're watching the movie. And then we hear of what they were thinking about during the movie.

[48:35]

We hear about it. They are watching. And other people too, you know, come out of the movies and They have been watching too. You can tell by what they say that they were watching their consciousness. They can report to you what was going on. And other people don't. They just practice shamatha. One other thing I wanted to say... Oh! And then, yeah, one other thing I want to say is to look at the story of Wang Bo, okay? There he is, the big Zen master, and he's got a big group of practitioners there. One of them, one of them, you know, and there's other ones, too. He has many wonderful students. One of them is Linji. Linji is there for three years. He lets him not ask any questions for three years.

[49:37]

Linji finally comes, and now Wang Bo hits him. Now when Wang Bo is hitting him, what's the intention? This is the magnificent disciple of Buddha I'm going to hit now for the welfare of this world. there is great kindness infusing this hidden. That's the proposal of Da Yu. Linji didn't see Wang Bo's intention, but the idea of this tradition that most people say is that this person has this great function of even while hitting this great student, his intention to help him is totally sincere, perfectly expressed. And then finally Linji sees it too. And it's insubstantial. It's insubstantial. There's nothing, you can't get a hold of this intention.

[50:41]

It doesn't belong to Wang Bo or Linji or me or you. And yet we all are enjoying it and responsible for it. Longbow's three hits. And I thought, and then I thought, oh yeah, and I remember one time in the last year of Suzuki Roshi's life, the last year of his life, one morning somebody rang the wake-up bell early, you know, about an hour early. And everybody got up. and started running around to go to the meditation hall. And then the person who rang the wake-up bell then realized it and went down the hall saying, it's a mistake, go back to bed, go back to bed. And then people started going back to bed.

[51:44]

And then Suzuki Roshi comes trotting out of his room, you know, to the zendo. I don't know if he hears the person saying, it's a mistake, go back to bed. I don't know what he heard. But anyway, he goes down the stairs and then he sits there and nobody comes. Not even me. After a while he goes back to his room too and he comes down and then everybody comes down and is sitting and then he comes in to the room and he says to make a long story short he says, what do you think we're doing here? And And then he came over to me and hit me with all his might with a stick. I was the first person. I just happened to be sitting right where he was standing.

[52:48]

And so he hit me first, and he hit me real hard. And then he hit everybody. And there were 130 people in this sashin. He hit everybody. By the end he wasn't hitting very hard anymore. But he was hitting and kind of going, when he hit he was going... By the end it was kind of like real... He was tired. I don't know how many people were crying at this time or after, but a lot of them were crying because almost everybody could feel this tremendous kindness and love his concern that we would not miss out on what the point of this thing we're doing together is, he kind of thought we got a little distracted, all of us. And yeah, it didn't hurt me, it just was real hard and real generous and so kind.

[53:59]

And I kind of think that every hit he was just like, you know, I love you. I'm here for you. How come you didn't come to sit with me? And that was the end of that. So Big Wong Bo, three hits, and Little Suzuki Roshi, 130. And one more thing I just wanted to mention is kind of interesting little thing is that many people come to see me and say that they confess at the beginning that they've been rehearsing the meeting, sometimes for a long time. And yesterday when somebody said that to me I thought, well, what about me? I don't rehearse the meeting. I don't think, well, here comes Lloyd.

[55:03]

I wonder what I should say to him. Or should I hit him, or what? I don't. I don't rehearse. But then I thought, oh, but I used to rehearse. I used to rehearse. And my rehearsal was... I looked at my intention to see, and what I saw was, how can I help this person that's coming? And then I would think, how can I help the next person? And I would think, how can I help all these people? And then I noticed that I started to feel real sick. Because I would think, and some people say to me, how can you meet That many people. Person after person. And I say, well, you know, if I think about that, I don't feel very well.

[56:07]

And I learn from experience. Because I did actually, in that sense, rehearse. I used to rehearse. But as the numbers got bigger and bigger, I got more and more aware that rehearsal of thinking about how to meet 90 people or whatever, I felt really weak and scared. So I've learned that I can't afford to do that. I can't afford to think, how will I be able to see all these people? If I think that, I'll barely be able to see one. I'll already be sick before the first one comes if I think of the 90. So I've been trained out of that. by observing that that kind of thinking is a drain. So now I just meet each person, and I don't think ahead of time what to do. And it works out perfectly. I mean, it works out, it works out, it works out, it works out. And there is an intention there, but I pay attention to the one that arises when they come in the room.

[57:13]

I don't have... Before they come in the room, I have the intention to be in the room all alone. Because that's my relationship. That's the one I look at. And that doesn't drain me to look at the one that's happening. But if I imagine all these kinds of things away from where I am, then I feel weak. So I'm not telling you to stop rehearsing, but if you had to come to see me 90 times in a week, you would stop rehearsing. But if you only have to do it once, you can get by with rehearsing. But if you saw me 90 times by the end of the week, you'd realize, because you're rehearsing to see me once, you know. Now imagine what you'd feel like if you were rehearsing to see me 90 times. How am I going to meet him 90 times? Whoa, I better not think about this. This is a very... But that's a pattern of consciousness.

[58:15]

That's a karmic act. It's a karmic act to think, how can I meet a person 90 times in a week and be fully there each meeting? That's a karmic act. And you say, okay, and that's a karmic act. Okay, I see it. Okay, okay, okay. And then it doesn't happen anymore. You don't think like that anymore. It goes away. You don't think of it. The attention to it causes it to evolve into history. So, yeah. And once again, when all our daily deeds are Buddhist ritual, in other words, when every step you take and every breath you make and every vow you break, you know, I'll be watching you. Okay? When you're watching everyone like that, and you see that every one of those things is done also with the intention to realize the true Dharma, to maintain the true Dharma, then you have realized grandmother mind.

[59:29]

If you look and you don't see that intention, you're still practicing, you just haven't quite become a grandmother yet. You're still maybe more like a teenager or a toddler. You don't feel like the Buddha... Maybe you don't yet feel like the Buddha Dharma is your only child and it's very fragile and you've accepted that responsibility and therefore you never forget. Now you don't forget because you've seen that that which loves you, you're totally responsible to love back. And there's no space for forgetting. You see that. And then every moment, everything you do, you watch and you see, this is for you, this is for you, this is for you, this is for all beings. You see that and then you have realized Grandmother Mind. Before that you can be a wonderful person, of course, but you have not yet realized grandmother mind.

[60:36]

Is there anything you'd like to express? Yes, Claire? I suddenly laughed at myself. I always thought I was in the kindergarten since I've become a Buddhist and thought that the whole world was something that was awakening me. So I feel I've got a lot of growing up to do. You feel you have a lot of growing up to do? Well, it just amused me that I was enjoying the kindergarten. I was enjoying... Well, it's fine to enjoy kindergarten. Buddha enjoys you being in kindergarten. Well, maybe it's both and. I need to be in... It's both, right. You can enjoy kindergarten, Buddha... enjoys you being in kindergarten, and now you have this thing of growing up to do this, as we say, this 10,000 mile road to the realization ahead of you, which is, you know, that's true too.

[62:21]

And, yeah. That's so thank you. And then there's this, there's some other people tell me that sometimes they see, they put me on a pedestal and put themselves not on a pedestal. And I hear that, I hear that. And in a way I feel kind of uncomfortable, like, you know, I shouldn't let myself be put on a pedestal. And I can, like, be in situations where people don't put me on a pedestal. Like, again, in the security line at the airport, people aren't putting me on the pedestal.

[63:23]

Usually they aren't. Once in a while they do. They do sometimes, you know. If I really tolerate their harassment calmly, they say, whoa. Anyway... But then I also think, well, Suzuki Roshi used to let people do that. When he came in the room, in the dining room, people would sit up straight. You know, some of them might have been slouching, but he'd come in the room and they'd go, oop. Well, that's just the way it is when somebody's playing the role of teacher in the group, that people say, oh, there's the teacher, and the teacher is up there, so I should sit up straight. That's part of the deal. And then, you know, like if I sit down next to somebody in the dining room and they put me up on a pedestal, then I think, well, I should probably eat really carefully.

[64:26]

So that doesn't disturb the pedestal. I should probably eat really mindfully and practice grandmother mind since they're putting me up on the pedestal. So I try it. And then I noticed, but I'm also a barbarian. I see people eating so carefully, and I think, geez, I'm kind of a pig compared to this person. There's the Bodhisattva precept of, you know, not praising yourself at the expense of others, not putting yourself up while putting others down. But they don't have the precept of not putting others up, putting yourself down. They don't have that one. So, it's not that bad to put somebody up and put yourself down. The other way around is pretty bad. But this is not so bad.

[65:33]

Especially if it makes you eat more carefully and sit up straight. And then you can look at that. You know something's wrong with it, because you know the person really is a human being. But it's a useful mistake. It kind of makes you be careful. But still you might want to shake the pedestal a little bit. Like my daughter, I didn't know, my daughter put me on a pedestal too. And she was trying to pull me off of it for many years, you know, saying, hey, you're a bum, you're a jerk, you know. And I'm sorry to say that I just chuckled because for years I just laughed because I thought, oh, here's this person who loves me who says she hates me and that's so sweet. And then she would get more angry and yell even more outrageous things, and I'd laugh some more.

[66:41]

And then she'd just kind of like run out of the room and slam the door of her room. But when she was a teenager, finally she said something to me which got me. And I didn't laugh. And that was really helpful to her. And I showed her that I heard her and that it got me. So, you know, that was really good. Finally, she brought me down. Not below her, but just down to earth. But she still put me up on the pedestal. It's just that she brought me down, too. So there's both. And if I see myself up on a pedestal, I can see myself put on a pedestal, but if I feel like, if I feel like those who, I don't know, who are putting me on a pedestal, if I feel like they're below me, then I've got a problem.

[67:54]

So I have to watch out for that. That's one of my dangers. And, of course, you also have to, because some people are pretty impetuous. Thank you. So I've got a couple of... Can you hear him? Again? Good. I've got a couple of... I don't know, they're not... They're questions, I guess. Things that I think are holding me, maybe questions that are holding me back from practice. And so... One was, I think in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind, there's a statement that, and I can't remember exactly how it's written, but something like, every practice has its weaknesses and strengths.

[69:16]

So that statement and also a friend of mine told me of a person he knew who was apparently, you know, was recognized as having quite a profound understanding of like a non-dual understanding and that when this person was involved in a relationship breakup that they were They seemed to be like a normal person who had no realisation, got completely wrapped up in the anger and aversion and hatred of that situation. So my question is kind of like... What's the... What does this practice not do? And also, how does it happen that this person who apparently had this realization could behave like this?

[70:25]

I wanted to say, just before I respond to that directly, that you first said you had a question that was blocking your practice or something? Yeah, well I guess there's a kind of... And I thought, oh, questions often do not block practice, questions often are practice. But sometimes a question, I think what you mean is, it's a question but it's not so much just a question, it has some doubt in it. It's more like a doubt. a doubt about does the understanding of non-duality translate into ethical skill. That the person's karma will be skillful and encouraging. And it's hard to see, sometimes in the short run it looks encouraging, but it's hard to see really whether the karma is really going to be beneficial forever.

[71:31]

Because again, good karma does not have a self. But still, it's possible to look and ask the person, when you talk to your partner that way, is there actually a very clear, compassionate thread running through the way you're talking to them? And would your teacher, or does your teacher who's watching you relate to this person see and feel that while you're talking to them, you really respect them, you really love them, and you're devoted to them while you're talking this way? You could ask the person. And if he says no, then you say, okay, now, let's say the person's honest, and you say, no, I've lost sight of my love and my compassion for this person right now. And I can see that it looks like that. That I'm just trying to, I'm not being generous, I'm trying to control her or him. And I admit it.

[72:31]

And then the question is, you might say, how does your understanding of non-duality relate to not practicing giving? And I would say that if their teacher was there and their teacher was skillful, their teacher could point out the faultiness in their understanding, such that they can't practice generosity, for example. Generosity sets the ground and is pretty much the same thing as non-duality. Generosity, when it becomes a paramita, when it becomes the fulfilment, a parmita, it is basically nonduality. It's the actual practice of nonduality. But so are the other ones. So if a person has an understanding of nonduality but they can't practice giving at a point in time, then their understanding of nonduality is not manifested at that time.

[73:33]

Now, is it possible the person could have an understanding of non-duality on day X and on day Y not have an understanding of non-duality? Yes. That's another thing I wanted to talk about, which I will come back to. That's related to Roger's question yesterday. It is possible to have a vision of non-duality at a given moment and in the next moment not have it. And it's possible that around the time you had the first moment, you maybe would have told somebody, and then it became like public knowledge that you had an insight, and it was authentic at that moment, or for those ten minutes even. Or even that it was gone at the time you were reporting, but it was true. When you look back, you could look at that thing, and you can describe that landscape, and it's an authentic landscape of the understanding. And the way you talk about it shows that you understand.

[74:35]

It's possible. but it's also possible in the next moment that you don't have a non-dual understanding. And not a non-dual, but there's all kinds of other factors in there that make you not even able to try to practice generosity. And people don't think you are, and you don't feel like you are, and you might even still have enough left over of your practice to tell the truth and say, yeah, I am totally, I'm ashamed, I'm not even being generous right now. and my past practice is not functioning right now. I had been insights, and when I had those insights, I wouldn't act like this. You sort of have to talk to the person. But yeah, non-duality translates into, for example, generosity. And if it doesn't look like it, but the person said, no, it really is generosity, well, you know, then they probably, you know, they might generously offer you the chance to inquire further about how you can't see it's generosity, but it really is.

[75:42]

And maybe, maybe finally you see, oh my God, it is generosity, amazing. Maybe that might happen. I think that one of the characteristics of people who realize nonduality is that they will talk to people. They, generally speaking, are available for conversations at the time of realization. They're also available to be quiet and not talk if nobody wants to talk to them. So I think the test, the test of understanding non-duality, the test of understanding ultimate truth is the precepts and practice of giving, patience and concentration. If you understand non-duality, you're going to be like one cool dude. You're not going to get upset anymore, except if somebody wants you to and they need it, and you can manifest totally upset, wrathful deity, just as long as they need it, and then it's gone.

[76:56]

So what was Suzuki Roshi referring to if he was saying, in relation to Zen, maybe this practice, so if there's a... Well, there's a shadow side to it. I think it's kind of, he's being a little Jungian there. But there's a shadow side to practices. Practices have a psychological dimension, and there's a shadow side. And if you don't see it, admit you don't see it. But when you don't see it, that's the shadow. You're admitting the shadow, but you're not very experienced with it. Then later you say, oh, I see a little bit of it now. Now there's some light on the shadow. Yin-yang, light and dark, you know, they work together. Right in darkness there is light. Right in light there is darkness. So in this practice, what would you say is the shadow side?

[77:59]

The shadow side of selflessness is selfishness. So if someone's trying to practice selflessness, there's a shadow of selfishness. If people are trying to practice good, the shadow is evil. That's kind of the main shadow. And so the thing I wanted to say was that, and this is a little technical, but I'll just say it and maybe later it can be clarified. This thing about, you know, I think Roger was talking about bubble popping. So you look at your mind and you see in that landscape of your mind the relationship between yourself and the world, and you see this kind of like, this person who's there already, in relating to the world, or a person who has a bubble over the person which separates the person from the rest of the world, and there's a bubble over the different parts of the world, or there's a bubble over the whole thing.

[79:12]

Various kinds of imaginations, or as we said earlier in the sri, takes on what's going on. A take on what's going on is making what's going on into something that you can take. Before you have a take on the situation, you can't take it, right? So you put a take thing on it, a bubble, so you can get a hold of the bubble and pull it, push it. If you look at the situation, sometimes the bubble pops. In other words, you can't find the bubble. In other words, you see the situation, you saw the bubble, but now you can't find the bubble, the bubble's absence. That's called emptiness or suchness, the absence of the bubble, the absence of projecting essence on the situation. But basically, every phenomenal experience is a dependent core arising. Every phenomenal experience has this quality or this nature of being a dependent core arising. But also, every dependent core arising also has the quality of having a take on it, of having a bubble over it. Because the way you know, until you're enlightened completely, pretty much, the way you know dependent core arising is your take on it.

[80:23]

is the bubble you put on it so you can get it. And not only is the bubble you put over things the way you know these interdependent, ungraspable things, but you actually think that the bubble is the thing. So that happens every moment with every experience. However, simultaneous with the dependently co-arisen phenomenon, the only kind that there are, And the bubble about it, simultaneously, is that actually that bubble is absent in the independently co-arisen thing. It's not actually in there. It's just a superposition. It's just an imaginary thing that comes along with the way things are happening. That absence is the popping of the bubble. And that absence is there all the time. The bubble is there And it actually isn't popped, it's just that when you look for it and can't find it, it seems to be popped. It's actually a perfectly healthy bubble still there.

[81:27]

It's absent in what's going on. It only exists in imagination. And when you, not only you understand that, but you actually can verify that it can't be found, the bubble's popped. And that's a moment of seeing absence of the bubble in this world. That's a moment of seeing emptiness or seeing suchness. This is what bodhisattvas meditate on. Now before they can see this, they're warming up to meditate on this. In a sense, they're not really doing bodhisattva meditation yet. And it's essential meditation. But you could say practicing generosity is bodhisattva meditation. It is. But when you first start practicing generosity, it's got to bubble over. So it's not quite the regular, you know, full-fledged bodhisattva meditation yet. But when you finally can see this absence of the bubble, that's a moment of meditation on suchness, which is the relationship between emptiness or the absence of the bubble, or absence of a self, and the pinnacle rising.

[82:30]

You're meditating on suchness. Another version of this is that you're meditating on the emptiness of the separation between awareness and objects of awareness. But at this time, you're more like seeing the absence of the bubble on things. The next moment comes, and the next moment comes with the... It's a dependable horizon. Another interdependent world has appeared to you, and you're seeing some part of it, like a color, or a bunch of colors making a person, or a smell, whatever. Here we are, another moment of dependable horizon at another bubble, and another absence. In the next moment you might not see the absence. Your meditation might have cooled off and you don't see the absence. So you don't see suchness. In the next moment, same thing happens and you do see the suchness.

[83:32]

All the times when you don't see the suchness, you don't see the suchness. And at that time you're not really, you know, in the part of the path that's moving forward. You're kind of stalled at that time. But you can know that. And you confess stalled. But you don't have to confess that you're not practicing because you're noticing that you're stalled or noticing that you don't see suchness, noticing that you see self, that's still practice. So I shouldn't exactly say you're stalled, it's just your meditation on suchness is stalled. Your meditation on emptiness is not actually engaged. But those moments when you're meditating on this, those are the moments when you move forward and develop. Actually change. The other moments, you're doing the work which will make possible actual evolution. And so some people do have these sights of suchness.

[84:34]

I have several. But then they lose sight of it. It is possible to lose sight of it. The meditation on suchness is impermanent. Suchness actually isn't impermanent. Because it's the way things always are. Suchness doesn't arise and cease. It's the way things that arise and cease actually are. So suchness is not an impermanent phenomenon. It's not a composition. When the Buddha said... Buddha didn't say everything is impermanent. He said everything that Everything that's composed is impermanent. But space is not impermanent, and emptiness is not impermanent. Meditation on emptiness, meditation on suchness, that meditation is impermanent. So it's wonderful when it happens, but it can be lost.

[85:37]

And so someone could have actually had that meditation and have realization of that meditation, and then lose it. It's by having quite a few moments of seeing suchness over quite a long period that one evolves into what we call a Buddha. But having one vision of it is still a great attainment. Having one moment where you do not believe anymore, And because you actually have not been able to find it, it's a big relief. At that moment, there is liberation by that vision. So people can have that real attainment and still make big mistakes. It doesn't mean there was no attainment, it just means it wasn't thorough enough. I think it's fine to use the precepts as the test of somebody's understanding. That's the main way to test.

[86:43]

OK. In the text we've been chanting, and you've emphasized that... I can't remember the exact line, but it's something along the lines of, this does not happen within consciousness.

[87:49]

Or does not necessarily happen with consciousness. And I think in your talk earlier this morning, you said something along the lines of, Or it can a bit, or something. Seeing the nature, maybe, is what I'm talking about. That one can be a bit aware that that's what's going on, is a better way of putting it. And I guess what I'm trying to clarify is... It seems to me quite possible that non-dualism is realized often. Would you say it again, please? That non-dualism is realized. but kind of only then latch onto afterwards and, oh yeah, I realize that as a sort of, as an after event.

[88:57]

I can't quite see how dualism can be realized and seen that it's realized while it's occurring. There is a place where the path has been accomplished. Excuse me. In this, there is a place where the path has been accomplished. This is a different translation. Hence, there is a place in which the path has been accomplished. Hence, the unknowability of the known boundary is born together in studies along with the thorough investigation of the Buddha's teaching of this known. So there's an accomplishment. There's a place where there's an accomplishment.

[90:00]

And that accomplishment has an unknowability with it. Unknowability of what? Unknowability of a known boundary of the accomplishment. So, for example, you wouldn't know if you attained it or somebody else attained it or where it began or where it ended. You wouldn't be able to grasp it. And that unknowability is born together in studies along with the accomplishment of the Buddha's teaching of this knowing. So at that time there's unknowability of the known boundary of this accomplishment. And later you could have I guess you could have some knowability of the known boundary. You could know the boundary. You could be aware of it. But that's not the place of realization.

[91:04]

The place of realization, the realization itself does not appear within recognition. And Wendy brought me a copy of a text also written by Dogen where One version said, that which can be met with recognition is realization itself. And she had another version of the text which said, that which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. And so on the text where it didn't have the not, I wrote in a not. So now both texts say not. So, because you have exhausted the, as it says, because you have exhausted, thoroughly investigated the Buddha's teaching on this kind of knowing, the thorough investigation of this kind of knowing is born together and practices along with the unknowability of the known boundary.

[92:19]

The unknowability goes along with the thorough investigation and realization of the Buddha's teaching about this knowing. That which can be met with recognition is not realization itself. Realization is realization, but you just don't get to recognize it. Again, don't get the idea that this attainment or this realization necessarily becomes one's knowledge and view. that it would be known by discursive knowledge. Does that address your question? I think it does. So to say I'm in a state of realization of non-duality would kind of be a contradiction in terms and from what Lloyd said... No, you could say that. You just did. If I was in that state of realization, it would be kind of hard to recognize it, is what I'm saying.

[93:28]

Oh, did you say, to say, I recognize that I'm in a state of realization? No, but I think that's what I meant to say. That would be contradictory, but to say I'm in a state of realization of non-duality, you could say that. And at that time, somebody say, do you recognize anything there? And you say, no. And then you can say, how do you prove it? And you say, what can I do for you? How can I be of service? That's how I'll prove it. I'll serve you the rest of my life to prove it. But you wouldn't be saying that to try and prove it. No, you do want to prove it. You want to prove You want to prove the realization of truth, but the way you prove it is by serving beings. That's how you prove it. And serving them skillfully and in a conversational manner. I guess I'm saying you wouldn't want to try and prove this to prove that you were realizing something because there wouldn't be that you and something to prove.

[94:35]

No, you would want to prove that you realized something sometime. You might want to prove it. Like the Buddha, he said, I realized something, and he proved it to people. He didn't want to prove it. Once they said they wanted to know what he felt, he felt like we have to prove it to them, give them evidence. And then with the evidence, then they could also proceed to do the practice to realize it themselves. So it's okay to give evidence of realization. But it's realization of non-duality. It's not your realization. Because you also understand the boundary of realization is not distinct. You don't think it's yours, that you can have it. And yet you can prove that there's been realization. But when you prove it, you don't prove that you have it. Matter of fact, that's one of the ways you prove it is by pointing out that you don't have it and that they have it. And that would be part of the way people would like that proof. They would like that they could be part of it without you doing their work for them.

[95:39]

It's okay to prove realization. But prove realization of non-duality, right? In this case. So it's not proving my realization separate from your realization. I would prove that there's a non-dual realization that doesn't belong to either one of us alone. And the way I would do that would be by interacting with you. All this, however, does not appear within perception because it is unconstructedness and stillness, all this being the way all things are coming forward right now and giving you life.

[97:15]

The way all things are coming forth and realizing you right now, all this does not appear within perception. It is immediate realization. It doesn't appear within perception. It is how perception is realizing it. The realization doesn't appear within perception. The realization is how the perception is realizing it. How the perception is the realization of it. That's the perception. It's immediate. There's no duality. If practice and realization were two things, as it appears to an ordinary person, they could be recognized separately. If the practice of realizing the Buddha Dharma was one thing, and the realization were two things, then you could recognize the realization separate from the practice.

[98:29]

Or there would be a practice separate from the realization. That's the way things look in a deluded mind. And then it says, but what can be met with recognition is not realization itself, because realization is not reached by a deluded mind. A deluded mind is a mind where the self's acting on the world. That mind cannot recognize how the world comes forth and realizes itself. But no mind can realize that. But the dualistic mind can recognize how it acts on the world. There is a recognition of how you act on the world and how the world acts upon you. You can recognize that. That's a dualistic mind, or a dualistic mind. But how the world comes forth and realizes you, that cannot be recognized. But it can be realized. Yes?

[99:53]

I think in the past, you've clarified the difference between recognition and realisation, and I think that's been very helpful in understanding what you're talking about. I invite you to speak about the distinction between recognition and realization for the benefit of the people here. Would you like to say anything about it? I'd rather you did. Well, if you're willing to, even though you'd rather have me do it, I invite you to do so. Thank you.

[100:55]

As I understand it, recognition is a re-cognition, so it's having something cognised and then seeing that it's cognised, so it's kind of inherently dual, whereas realisation is just a spontaneous happening. There's not a kind of re-cognition of the spontaneous cognition of what's happening. Okay, or it could be simplified to say, recognition is cognizing something again, but realization is just a cognition. It's not a recognition. Okay. I hope you're not going to ask me to say anything about this, but I was wanting to ask if you could talk about the firewood and the ash.

[102:15]

Firewood and ash? Not becoming firewood again. Will you ask that question tomorrow? Yeah. I think it's a little bit. It's, you know, maybe tomorrow we could ask you, maybe, because it's a little, I think if I start now, it would be hard to... It's kind of another big section of the text. So remind me tomorrow, okay? Tomorrow we're finishing in the morning. Tomorrow we're finishing in the morning? Yes, that's right. So, I mean, it won't be up to be us. No, it will, I mean, well, if she asks it, it'll be asked. Or if you ask it, it'll be asked. But there's no time for a talk? Yeah, there is a talk tomorrow. At what time? What time? I think it's at 10 o'clock or something like that. Yeah, isn't that right? 10 o'clock tomorrow? Dhamma talk.

[103:18]

We don't have a schedule for the mass today. Yeah, I think there's a Dhamma talk scheduled. It's only an hour and a half, but you should be able to ask that question within that time, if you ask in brief. Okay. And while I'm here, yeah, just to say about the practices, I felt uneasy after I spoke last time. I think I said I was having difficulty questioning my thought when I was sitting and I was thinking and have experienced the excellent practices and just to give this back I hadn't intended to say Yeah, I've been very surprised how... There's the phrase I remember of this, the bonds of karmic obstruction, which this idea of the loosening, somehow the action of receiving awareness.

[104:32]

Yeah, it can happen that the things... My things that I have difficulty with become like husk, less blood life in there. So, yeah, it's rather good practice. That's good. Thank you. It was just kind of the intention to come up.

[105:45]

I wasn't very far. Nonetheless. I guess just because someone mentioned about it being the last day tomorrow. Except for my belly. I'm a bit sad. You're a bit sad? That you're going away again. I don't really enjoy it. You don't enjoy it in practice? Not most of the time. Not most of the time? Just once in a while? Are you grateful for the once-in-one? It's great. You enjoy it? Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I can see how... Did you hear what he said?

[106:48]

He said, he said, I don't really enjoy the practice. I don't really enjoy the practice. And I said, and then he said, well, once in a while he does. And that's enjoyable, right? Yeah. I was going to say that I can see that once in a while, that I can see how that could really get very enjoyable or could get very useful, if you like, or could be... It could get useful? What is the it? The practice. The practice could get useful? The it, the practice could develop. But looking at what might have to be gone through to get there is... And when you look at what might have to be gone through to get there, what do you see? In that landscape of the path between here and that enjoyable practice, what do you see that you have to go through?

[108:00]

Actually, I just have to kind of do it, really. just have to, that just need... You see it, you see a having to do it between here and there? Well, it's just now that you're putting it in that way, I see that I feel now that I just need to actually have the, I can't think of the right word, it's not exactly determination because that's too kind of, the kind of the diligence, I just have to do it. And I sort of feel like if I'm looking at it Sometimes, moment by moment, sitting there, it feels pretty painful. But maybe that's just my resistance to doing it. Pretty much. I mean, there's other pains besides resistance. There's a pain that you find when you're not resisting anymore. But, so if I look, if you look over, you know kind of from experience now that there's a place where you get to enjoying the practice and then between, for example, any point in time and the imagination of that enjoyable space, you know that between here and there, there has to be a settling into what's happening.

[109:16]

And you know you might not be willing to settle into what's happening. And you know that that will not be comfortable. That will be hard. So the irony is that the discomfort is actually my resistance, but a lot of my resistance is because of my perception of the discomfort that's going on. Yeah, right. So that's quite ironic, really. Yeah. It's not ironic, it's paradoxical. Is it? Okay. Okay. Ironic would be you saying, I don't really like to practice. when you really do. It's not that I like it, it's just I don't really see any alternative. Yeah. Well, so, you know, like, I'm going to go to the mountains for three months, and when I first get there, I will have a little bit resistance to being there, and it will take a little time before I... And I know that between when I get there and when I settle,

[110:24]

it will be difficult. Because I won't completely accept the new world for a little while. And there will be a hard time between there. But when I settle then, then again I will feel like, you know, what do they say? Yes. I love this. But you know that it takes time to get there. But in my day-to-day life, some days, sometimes many days may go by when I don't really have a chance to settle, not in the way that I have an opportunity to settle here. Right. So in a way, I'm always in that place where it's uncomfortable before I get to settle. Uncomfortable before you get to settle, right. Like for days and days on end. Yeah, right. That's right. That's quite a familiar... That's definitely been a big feature in my life recently. So the nice thing about this situation is when you come and you resist, it's so clear that...

[111:27]

It's so clear that you should just go, bring it on. Okay. It's so clear that that's what's necessary. In daily life sometimes you're not sure that that's necessary. But here it's so obvious that it's necessary here. It's necessary there too, but here it's very clear. And you know from past experience, there it is again. I'm not quite ready to say, okay, I'll be here. And sure enough, just like before, until I get to that place, I'm not settled and I'm uncomfortable. And I also kind of remember that in a few days I'm going to be settled and I'm going to be happy. On the fourth day, I'm going to settle. And on the fourth day, saying, yep, here I am. It's like I'm here. And it was uncomfortable to get here. But the time between now and when, wherever you are, you settle, that's even farther. When you settle in the moment without having a special setup called, which makes you think, this is really stupid to resist coming to this place that I made this big effort to come to.

[112:41]

But you don't necessarily feel that every moment of your life you're in that place primarily to help you be in that place. So if you're not there, it's really contradictory. I mean, sometimes in my everyday life. The stupidity of resistance is not so clear in daily life. Sometimes the resistance snaps in my daily life. Yeah, sometimes it does. And then it can be enjoyable doing the practice, whatever is going on. Yeah, sometimes it happens. What I noticed then is, thinking about it now, I noticed that my resistance is often in quite a hurry to come back. that even when I'm enjoying it, there's an intention, a really strong intention to get that resistance back quickly. Good. It's great that you know that. God, it's stupid, isn't it? Okay, I think I've said enough. Okay. hello hello i don't feel as if i've seen you all week yeah you've been way far away yes and from back there it's nice to see you yes thanks for coming you're welcome yeah um anyway i just wanted to say that

[114:18]

I don't know. Josh. Josh's view of... Short for Joshua? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I wanted to say that my view of this week has been a little different because the morning of the retreat last Friday, I fell down the stairs at home and I got the biggest bruise on my backside. Yeah. It's about this long and this wide. Alison can verify because I showed it to her on the way home. Can you hear her in the back? She has a bruise from falling, a big one. Backside. anyway um after the initial shock of having received this bruise it's amazing how my head cleared because um oh you know the kind of bullshit that goes through your head before you come on a retreat was going ham and tongs before i came on this retreat because it's my first in about 10 years and um

[115:39]

I didn't have very much courage when I came here. But somehow that, it was a bit like, was it Linji's master hitting? The universe gave me a bit of a compassionate shock. And so when I came here, I was actually quite, really quite spacious. It was curious, that. but from there on it kind of got worse rather than with Josh's description if he's waiting for this time when it might get better it's interestingly fatigue has hit yesterday and yesterday was a very difficult day But nevertheless, it's really enough just to be here and practice, and I'm very grateful for the opportunity.

[116:47]

I'm glad I've managed to get here after all these years. I just wanted, because I probably haven't got time to have an interview with you now, to ask, just to discuss one little couple of sessions I had, which was nothing really, but it was just like a very relaxed state, which then led into another very relaxed state, where... there was nothing much happening at all except i could hear i was aware of bird call and i was aware of myself being there but it was a very deep state of silence apart from that and um It lasted about two sessions, and as I came out of this, whatever it was, I saw that the whole experience had been quite black, and I couldn't work out why it should be black.

[117:48]

And then I also began to see that it has a shape, and its shape was kind of roughly kind of that shape, kind of donut-y or something. And then as I came out of it, I realized I was looking at zafu. And the zafu was these shapes and this color. And I just wondered whether what that kind of, whether you had anything to say about that sort of trance-like thing that... I guess I would say that does sound like ... Actually, you could say that it's like a trance, but you could also say it's ... Being that way with things is also training in concentration. So you sounded like you became somewhat calm, but also that way of experiencing.

[118:50]

and allowing yourself to be that simple with what's happening, that also leads to or supports concentration. So it sounded like you were both becoming concentrated and that you were actually doing the concentration practice at that time. And in that space you can also, because you're relaxed and flexible and buoyant, you can see things in ways that you don't usually let yourself see. you know, really different way of seeing asafoetida, for example. Non-discursive silence is not the same as tranquility, but allowing nondiscursive silence comes to fruit as tranquility.

[119:54]

Once you're tranquil, you can also continue to experience nondiscursive silence. But you can also start talking once you're tranquil. But if you're not tranquil, and you somehow can tolerate this nondiscursive silence, you will become tranquil. and flexible. And then things will start looking different, you know, sharper, clearer, less pushy in you, less pushy with them, and more buoyant, basically. And then, then if you start looking at what's going on, you're able to interact in a way that we call wisdom training. Which you started to do a little bit with the... You know, I started to play with it, you know. Without even calling it play, you were playing with it.

[120:55]

That's how the boundary between tranquility practice and investigation or study is sometimes very smooth without any big heavy decision. You just slip into it and start playing. And I also have this little, I don't know what the word is, but it's kind of a little scenario or practice which is Trust, relax, play, create, understand, and liberate. Trust that finding your place right here is okay, that this is a good place to practice, this is a good place to build, a monastery and settle here.

[122:00]

And you trust that. You let yourself do that. You feel it's okay. And then you relax into where you are. And I think you relaxed into where you were at that time. And when you relax into where you are, nothing much is happening because whatever it is, you just pretty much relax with it. And then you start playing. And as you play, you more and more realize that it's an interplay and that it's creative. And also you realize that you don't do it by yourself. It's not coming from this side or that side. It's coming together. And then you understand creation by being involved in it. And then you're liberated. So that's another scenario of what we've been talking about. It's okay still not to get it. It's okay not to get it.

[123:03]

It's okay not to get it. That's kind of a relaxed attitude. It's okay to suffer. At least it's okay for me to suffer anyway. And I say that so I can relax with my suffering. Because being tense about my suffering really doesn't do anybody any good. But relaxing with my suffering is good for all of you. for me to be patient and relax with my suffering, will allow me to start playing with my suffering with you, which I've been doing all week. And as I play with you and my suffering, or I play with my suffering you, the doors of creation open and we enter together. And I see that we enter together. And then I understand that we are here in creation together, totally creating each other.

[124:08]

And then we're liberated together. And this process, except at the beginning, this process is a process of not getting anything. It's just waking up to the way things really are. And we really are free and in harmony. Bev and Linda. I just wanted to say that my plan is to go tomorrow after breakfast. Because I'm moving house. That's the plan. I'm already tempted to say, okay, I move house a bit later. But if I stick to my plan, I want just to say goodbye.

[125:13]

Okay. And thank you for all the support I got just because all of you were here with me. Yeah. And thank you for your care. And thank you all for doing a really good job of keeping me included in things you were doing that I didn't know about without you telling me. Thank you. I really appreciate that. And I'd just like to second that. I'm afraid I'm leaving right now actually at 1.30 because I've got work commitments. But I really enjoyed practicing this week with you.

[126:15]

So thank you very much. And do you have to leave early too, Linda? When do you leave? Yeah. So Linda's also going to leave. She's leaving tonight. It's taken a lot of courage for me to come and sit here. But, um, And my problem is I have a terrible, terrible memory. I've been rehearsing all week. So I was going to ask some wonderful questions. I've forgotten them all. So plan B, I wrote them all down. Read it, re-read it. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one too. And then I lost it. LAUGHTER

[127:16]

This is getting to be really difficult, and actually I do think my memory is getting worse. I only wish I could forget myself. Well, you remember that. It makes it very, very difficult to study sometimes. I'll open a book and I'll read a little bit. And as I get towards the end of the paragraph, I've forgotten what it said in the beginning. It's so hard to actually retain anything. And occasionally, if I'm trying to speak to somebody and it's a long sentence, I've forgotten what the beginning of the sentence is by the time I got to the end. So before I forget the point, as I think I was trying to make, I want to thank everybody here for asking the questions that I would have asked if I could have remembered them.

[128:23]

Thank you all very much. And thank you for your teaching and patience. As we lose our memory and our teeth and our hair and many other things, it may be difficult to trust that it's okay to relax with that, all those losses. But I still would encourage you, as you lose things, to relax. And if you start relaxing now, that will help you when new waves of loss come, that you'll be well trained at relaxing.

[129:25]

And if you can relax with the loss of your memory and your et cetera, the practice of relaxation may be able to go on without you remembering that you trust that it would be okay to relax. And relaxing isn't something you need to remember how to do, fortunately. However, when relaxation happens, one of the consequences of it is it makes possible more relaxation. And then if you can keep relaxing through all that we are losing, the relaxation practice may be able to go on. And if the relaxation practice goes on, even if you can't remember how it goes on or what you're relaxing about, the playful practice may also come forth. Even though you can't remember how to play, you don't have to remember how to play. That's not play. Play is what you're actually doing. You can relax, you can feel it. And if you enter the play, you enter creation. And if you enter creation, you realize that even your losses are part of creation.

[130:30]

Creation is part of our losses. And then you can understand and be liberated even in all these losses. We are going to lose everything. But it's possible if the practice is strong, the practice of relaxation and play and creation and understanding and liberation, the practice will go on. But it might not go on if you don't give yourself to it now. Don't wait till later. Okay? May our intention equally extend to every being and place with the true merit of Buddha's way.

[131:23]

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