In Africa, I had to work for this one. It was a form of hope. of oppression. And I think they wanted to conquer, so they did not want to work for them, not to pay the tax, not to serve in the army like St. Moritz, who was a black Greek monk, who was a legion from Tibet, in Egypt, who was a martyr, patron saint of the world. But, you know, so they don't think much. And, uh, they did want to cut their hair, they did want to wash. And to the, uh, the last chapter, no chapter, about certain paintings of this city of San Francisco, is a piper's, uh, about the hairy locks, you know. So, it's quite a trilogy about hair. So, I said, please, not too long, not too short, not too short. I have to be, you know, not too excessive. And, uh, That explains, you know, that historically our maladies have been, you know, in this extremely mixed milieu.

[01:19]

to the manifestations of the monastic movement is a certain abstinence in the matter of religion. The person which has to refuse the ordinary life of society is to refuse this virtue. Whatever, as the doctor procured. And sometimes in Hinduism, it's justified by the deity. It's very beautiful. And there, they respect the fly, not the virus. So never kill a living being. Never eat, he said, not even eggs, because it contains the germ of life. I remember when I was in a Buddhist monastery in Bangkok, I was invited to a meal, the only meal that they had every morning. And I was struck by the quantity of cats, dogs, sparrows, they were everywhere. So I said, well, you know, Buddhists are totally non-violent. So when they have too many cats, they bring them to the monastery.

[02:29]

And they give something to feed them. And in fact, then, when his dialogue for Christian monetary was started, yeah, I could see the devil. So, Christian cats. Oh, my Christian. Christian mouth. So, actually, then, sometimes I already mentioned that on which it's good to be deterred. One of the main manifestations of marginality is the fact of world life. During the labor people are stable. They have a job, they earn their living, their friends are always the same and so forth, there are social relations, whereas the protesters, being free, you work. You go everywhere, you beg, you get your real works. But for some it is a wonder, you know? And then the extreme care, the extreme manifestation of this marginality and of this protest is to be assumed.

[03:36]

for God, you know? And we have this tradition of wise fools, who apparently they are fools, but in fact they are the wise people, you know? In fact, everybody considers them as fools, you know, they decide to slay, and they are just fine, they say what they want, you know? But they are fools for God, God loves, you know? And we have that in our religious tradition. We have done many of these Swamis you meet in India, you never know whether they are serious or not, you know, because somehow, of course, they are exploiting the situation to beg without working and to wonder. But it's very difficult to know, you know. And you have this idea of the wise fool, and you have only the spiritual father, particularly if you consider him as a sort of paradoxical person, you know, who jokes with you, he doesn't answer, he's on a break, you ask him a question, he answers with another question, instead of just patrifying you with a comforting answer, he obliges you to think more, and you have this idea of the Zen master, of the comic figure, of the fool, doctor, in the Sufi tradition, very much so, you have this in the Buddhist tradition, in the Hindu, and you have it in the Christian tradition, and you have it in the

[05:02]

in the African tradition. When I was in Africa, I didn't see the same thing, but a few weeks before, there had been an election of a chief in a village, and the Trappist monks were there, and then there was some, the election was something I think wrong in the election, but the chief was there and he wanted to involve the people and nobody dared to say anything because he was the chief. And then there was a law called Palabra, you know, Palabra. And then suddenly a man appeared, took on a dirty, long beard, a so-called friend. He took on a ridicule, you know. Then he out and speak and he spoke and he said all the truth to the chief, you know. And then they had to settle the problem. He was the only free person. And that's the fool you find, you know. but he's a little over-motivating.

[06:08]

The Ruler of Shakespeare, King Lear, himself, the only reasonable person, the only person who says reasonable things, he's a fool, you know? And all the councilors of King Lear tell him something cruel. That's not to be a fool, he's right, he's a fool, you know? And that's why, that's the meaning of all these fools there were in the court, court jesters, you know? Even in the public, people, court, they were reminding the man that you are just a man, be careful. You know, the fool is a person who is free enough to tell the truth. And to accept the lesson as monks and nuns, we have to be that. And in the Russian Christian tradition, it's very, very strong, you know, they have quite a series of plant food. They used to canonize the food. In the time of the oppression by the Great Thaw, the high one, the terrible, the great, the only people who were free enough to stay, to protest, you know. I think the emperor, or sometimes the patriarch, were the fool for Christ.

[07:12]

And of course, some were killed, were martyred, but that was their vocation, their journey, up to the time where, say, 17th century, Church in the States were so identified that they still canonized the fool. But there were still, if you read the Russian, the Territory of the Russian War, wandering, and sometimes he's taken for a fool, and put in jail. And you hear the same in all of our Christian monastic traditions, like Ignatius. Floyd was considered a fool to go with them, even in his constitution, he said that may happen, let's just normally not do it on purpose, but let's be fools for Christ. And he was even back in Germany, he said, well, the men don't care. When Francis was a fool, when Francis was a hippie in his time, a Jesus freak, you know, protesting in the place of Baptiste, Returning is close to his affluent father, refusing all this society, as you remember in the season of the beautiful fresco.

[08:22]

although the scene is the death of Athene, and then the people is there, the father is there, Francis is there, and the poor bishop does not know what to do, he just covers the lunacy of this, of this freak. So it was fun. And there is quite a tradition up to our death. And I remember a few years ago there was an international conference on the occasion of the centennial of the birth of Dostoevsky in Venice. So there were 15 representatives of the Soviet, Soviet Persian Academy of Sciences. They were all Serbian people. They offered the essays, at least officially, otherwise they could not have them, because they were always surveying one another. And there were two Christians in Florida. There was one, Jürgen Moltmann, who had to speak of the hope according to Dostoevsky. In fact, he discovered hope when he was a prisoner of war. in difficult conditions, even in the German port and here.

[09:23]

Only one book we see, which was Theranos, also. We discover all these theories of sport, play, and so forth, started from this experience. And to me, they asked me to deal with a topic which is very convenient. For me, it was the idiot. Ha! The idiot! The idiot of life is tragedy, you know? It is not about the idiot. It's a theory. I wanted to show the idea of The perfect example is the idea of Christ. And you know he's the man who comes out of a mental hospital and he says if you include the Russian society of this time, denounce the abuses of power, of riches and so forth, and then He, as a sort of epileptic kind, returns to his mental hospital, which was very timely, because it was the very moment when Stolzhenitsyn was receiving, or not receiving, his Nobel Prize, the President of the Academy, [...] the

[10:35]

The last example of a wandering from God, who was also a foreigner to Christ, was St. Benedict Lardy, a sort of wandering hermit, who from Northern France to Italy regularly went uh... and uh... he'd killed his face and closure was dirtiness you know and he was really a fool for Christ and everybody laughed at him, he was living in a home built in a home nobody respected him except a few spiritual men on his way you know at least up there or in churches in chartered houses told me, go on, you are... eventually he was canonized. And the last one who was canonized and so his father called him, who really was a tool to cut. He offered himself to another and he was only considered a fool for a lady. So you see, I think ending this line of the tradition, you have the And I think it's good for us to remember, because the first interest in it, you know, remember St.

[11:42]

Paul, it's so clear, we are all full of Christ. And that means that the values the world esteems, we despise. And the values the world despises, we esteem. We prefer charity to selfishness. We prefer service to power. We prefer poverty to riches. We support. That's exactly the opposite of what normally it should be, isn't it? And Val Bonham, the wonderful man, when he compared himself to a general, with a chest, you know, walking with hand, and feet, head, and doing all sorts of ridiculous things, you know. But to be a jester, to be a clown, the acrobat is still somebody who makes ridiculous things, and you admire him. And the clown falls eventually. It's a failure, and it's ridiculous, but people identify with this humility, this failure of life. Most of our lives are failures. So that's the importance of clowning in the church. We need some. and in the community.

[12:42]

So we need also to organize, to administrate, but we need some clowns also. No, that's the start, which you find in all which you find in all the religious societies, in all monastic movements. There's all these kinds of expressions of marginality. And there are always these aspects of passing from marginality to communion, keeping your identity as a marginal, as a human being, but always of service, humbly, you know. Now, if all that is a, if all that are communal structures of life, common observances, common manifestations of the same marginality, the same monocle, we may ask ourselves, what is specific to Christianity?

[13:54]

Are we not reducing Christian monotheism to a sociological human phenomenon? How can we do it? maintain that he doesn't indulge in resourcing Christian. And of course, that can only be achieved not at the level of this fact, this manifestation, but at the level of motive. What were the intentions of the Christian monks? What made the difference between the intentions of the Christian monks and the non-Christians? Who is inducing reasons of fortune? It's the motive. Again, historically speaking, it's not an easy topic because many motifs, some motifs may be the same. For instance, Christian monks may have received some motifs from the Old Testament ideas to restore the image of God or from some tradition to seek God and so forth.

[14:58]

But there is quite a series of motives which is typically existent and which make the difference. What did the first ones say they wanted to do? They wanted to carry this force, to be of service in the church, to be fishermen in the river. serve the children, do something for the children. They wanted to share and to imitate his voluntary virginity, his voluntary poverty, his continuous obedience to the father. They wanted to anticipate from the children to be sophisticated in a sponsored relationship with the Holy and Good Life for him. And you see all sorts of motifs which all support a personal relationship to God.

[16:07]

Not only the realization of a certain program, a certain way of protesting, of putting oneself outside, and even outside the communion, but for a certain practical reason, which is always a personal relationship to Jesus. And that makes a difference. And probably, well, When I was young, as you saw, some German book scholars tried to explain everything Christian, faith, sacraments, religious life, by just historical references. Then one of the Christian guest topics was the Egyptian religion of the Eastern world. And of course, there are some supernatural references. influences. And so the Christian apologetics and apologists and historians were very on the defense. And still now, many of the Orthodox theologians are very on the defense.

[17:10]

Everything comes from the state. But everything comes from the state through the human teaching. And now we are clear, now that we may at the same time The community of all the elements, as I mentioned before, and the specificity of the Christian motif, we are free to admit that. Manifestation is a world phenomenon, not in itself evangelical, but it has been evangelized, it has been Christianized. The greatness of the incarnation is not only to have for God to assume a humanity for their mind, but to have taken the real structure of life, the condition of mind. That was Jesus' deed. And to simplify all that, and to introduce in the human mind, human society, human religion, a new dimension, which is the dimension of the Christian dimension.

[18:11]

union with God in the spirit, so sharing in the experience. And then once we admit that, we may admit that there have been many historical influences between Christian and non-Christianity. Another typical example is the famous life of St. Joseph at St. Paul. which we used to read, and some of us did, and the priest of all the saints, you know what I mean? And it's a, it's the life of Buddha, and he was, in fact, he's the transformation of Gautama. The life of Buddha, he's written in Christian terms by Fulvresen Dungdamasin, who was the son of a Muslim sheikh in Damascus, Syria, and he He takes on this life of Buddha, he's working for Christians.

[19:16]

But all the basic teaching is typically Buddhist, you know. And in fact, the page we used to read as a lesson in this feast of suffering in November was the most Buddhist page of the life. All compassion, non-violence, mercy, everything, which is okay, but could not be Christian, no? In fact, it has been Christianized, it has been evangelized. And do you remember, Cardinal Daniello used to tell me, when we celebrated the Feast of Saint Josaphat, I say that the Feast of Saint Buddha. It's only after the Council of Trent that this Saint Josaphat and Balaamon, who is a spiritual advisor, I think, were introduced in the Roman martyrology, the Roman calendar. And that was equivalent to a canonization of Buddha, because that is the life of Buddha. There are many parallels, similarities between non-Christian and Christian religious movements. Instead, we have to see what is the proper Christian motivation and what is not.

[20:24]

A very typical example is the motivation of celibacy. Celibacy for the Virgin of the Sun in the Incas of Mexico or celibacy for the Essenes in Judaism may have been just a spiritual purity or a sort of social value, virginity, whatever. In Christianity, we see a total transformation. at the level of a personal love, of a personal love for Christianity. That makes quite a difference between a saint, for example, a sane celibacy, and the Christian world, you know, you often live in community and therefore you have to be a celibate, otherwise you have all the trouble of the family, not only to be in either in ritual purity or to be ready, as Kumara who has sought military order, to always be ready to fight and therefore you are not to have the daughter in the family, but it became something much personal, it had to be interiorized.

[21:25]

And that's why we have to notice all these parallels which may have punctured. For instance, in the monastic tradition, tradition of the school of St. Victor and many, many places, you have this idea of the mandala. I don't know if you have ever experienced the mandala. It's a sort of symbol of psychic integration, of the form of a design where everything leads to a certain. And the temple in the Angkor, in Cambodia, I hope it won't be destroyed. And many Buddhist temples are, in fact, in Mandala. And, in fact, we find Mandala now in the writing of St. Bonaventure, in the Holy of Saints, you know, and St. Benedict is supposed to have a vision, you know, which is a Mandala, too, and he saw all the world, Gaza, in one sunray. So, you have that. In the monastic tradition, of course, the immediate form of similarity and parallel is this wandering for God, wandering hermit, which I already mentioned.

[22:37]

I don't combine. But still, for instance, in the Franciscan tradition. There was a very interesting article a few years ago by a German Jesuit. just a joy. And he put in columns, parallel columns, the speech of Buddha to his disciples on poverty, and the speech of some friend. And when you read that, you wonder, who? Him, is that the other, you know? It's so similar. Almost swarf-like similar, word by word, you know? But I don't think there was any influence at all, but it's a similarity, you know? And a few years ago, there was a Dean White, Jr., professor of UCLA in Los Angeles, who published an article on medieval borrowings from further areas, where he shows that in the early 13th century, the time of Saint Francis and Saint Dominic, a few things were introduced in the Church which never existed before.

[23:42]

First, the fact of mendicity, mendicant. As we have seen, monks were supposed to work. And when they didn't, Augustine and others told them, you have to work. I didn't mention, I must do it now, Saint Martin, you know, but Saint Martin did the same in France, you know, he started this monarchy of liquidation, it still exists. But he was a normal boy, not necessarily dirty, but neglected, and when he was elected bishop by the people, those bishops were impotent, you know, despite the person, he is not dressed elegantly, he has long hair, all the retroaches. So you find that Mendicancy, you know, which is a common feature in Buddhism and Hinduism, has always been infused in the Catholic Church, Christian Church, and then suddenly, part of Egypt, Spain, has proposed entrance in Christianity, the Mendicant Order. And in fact, it took several generations, almost two centuries, to absorb this new way of life.

[24:45]

Because the monks were supposed to work, the clergy were supposed to give out the stipends, and then new ones were to preach and to wander, preaching without working and without having parishes. How to situate them in the new catalog, you know? So, but it was quite a new thing. Then, second, From their earliest years, the identifying sign of the Franciscans was a knotted cord around the waist. The West's religions are filled with symbolic thinking, but they are generally assumed only for station-wise. The closest analogy of the Franciscan cord is a second cord worn perpetually by the Brahmans as a sign of their identity. Later, at the same moment, and associated with the plight of the Manic Entombed Earth, the ancient gesture of prayer, without stretching arms, was widely expressed in Europe by a new posture, the Antismagic, with folded hands, that is identical with the Namaskara, the Indic gesture of reverence and prayer.

[25:53]

In fact, when you greet somebody in Asia, it can be that way, and when you pray, And so it just ends up in the same time. Now we know that. Thought shortly after the middle of the 13th century and largely propagated by the friars, the Indic habit of using a string of beads for counting repetitions of prayer, a device adopted in Islam at least as early as the 10th century, swept Europe in the form of a paternoster, the rosary. And in fact, the rosary, it means rose, it works as a garland, you know, what the Indic do when you arrive in Asia, you know, flowers, and they use them. And you still see many swine mills in New York City, and they go, well, who got this rosary in their hands? Amuses me to see that some Catholic monks get free from the rosary, but they have this small little rosary. And since so, in Islam, in Morocco, Hermit, wandering Hermit, always showing his greeting, God, Allah, Israel, Allah, and so forth, and counting the rosary, which tells them to count the 150 names of Adam.

[27:08]

And that's a true spell, that's why it was attributed to Saint Dominic and to the Christian. So, Little White said, if these things were just Even if their strengths individually might be considered indigenous to Europe, but as a cluster, they suggest a stream of Finnic influence, powerful in North Italy and Langley and Spain, the regions where both Dominican and Franciscan achieved their formation. You see, that's just similarity. And there are many others. For instance, in the African, in East Francisca, there are quite a lot of studies of them. It's time for me to stop now. Now, a few examples in the Cambrian tradition. The Carmelite order has its origins in the Holy Land, and therefore, it has been questioned whether the white woolen cloth worn by Carmelites for prayer is not an imitation of that worn by the Muslim Sufi.

[28:10]

And I think it is. That's why, remember, this white wool, which the Carmelite brothers and nuns used to wear, is a Sufi's wool, you know. So wool, leather, in a natural color, not totally white, but just sort of practically dirty, just not natural. And Suf, Suf mean that. The Sufis was the people who wore the sort of aesthetic, you know, who wore this, this splendor. And so the first Carmelite father in the world, Carmel in Palestine, just adopted the dress of the Sufis and now imported that in Spain and everywhere in its order too. And it's obvious that the long black veil which the Reinald Heidegger and her daughters wore over their faces was the same which was worn by Andalusian women in Spain and still in Andalusia, a very Muslim country.

[29:17]

In the same way, the claims which protected women in Islamic countries, including southern Spain, for many centuries, have influenced the claims which have been imposed On the Carmelite, I was a close to that. But I think, however, there are these ideas. I think that was pointed out between Suzuki and L'Occitane, speaking of similarities between Saint-Germain-de-Corse and the Venetian. But also, two years ago, on the occasion of the centennial of the birth of Saint-Helena, this year, it was a bit lower. The similarities between her teaching and Zen, this idea of, I think there is a particular book of the master, which for me, I think there is particularly a lot of interest in the Maester in a show-meeting We come out of what's known as Marx's Boltonoise.

[30:30]

This idea of renting oneself, paying rent, and that already is sort of total poverty, you know? Nothingness, nothingness permanent, impermanence, impermanence. You find yourself in a total renunciation in order to prepare you to this presence of God. a sort of period of truly finding helplessness which leads to abandonment to the Father. For that it is necessary to empty oneself. Holiness does not lie in one specific practice but exists for this in its condition from the heart. Now in the ancient tradition also, and it's good to mention because the Jesuits are not represented here, but they are represented in many, excuse me, modern institutions, you know. Now, there was a German Jesuit who wrote an article on the silence of Buddha and the spirit of exercise, and so on, and so forth.

[31:33]

in the use of light and those who have been in Japan know how careful they are to never to have a violent light on the staircase, window and so forth. Bodily position, certain use of elements and so forth. the importance of experiential knowledge, not only brain and idea, you know. I quote this Japanese proverb, if a man wants to know the taste of fries, let him eat it. The idea of the way, you know. the technicolourist and portraitist. That's why you have Ren Zheng. Ren Zheng, that's, you know, all the followers of some Buddhist ideas in the Gospel of St John. I think it's the same part of France who wrote two books in the Buddhist, the Gospel of St John. So that's not, not, but now there I think there are some ways of speaking and so forth, some, then the importance of

[32:39]

what Ignatius called the pisha, the heart, you know, interiority, the bowels, which is equivalent to the Japanese phara, and so forth. So you have lots of that similarity. And now recently I discovered the Vietnamese practice in this country. Last time I was, I came from Asia, and spoke in this monastery often. the value of this Christian religion was protested, it was totally westernized. But now, last time I was there, he was writing beautiful, wonderful papers, so he became interested in the St. Bernard's Christian tradition, and there, and yoga, and so I asked him, how did you discover? your country's tradition. He said, it's through the Westerners who call me. They are so penetrated by this thing that I have to look. I'm not mislead, I'm weak to turn the guest out, so I went, I discovered through them, those Westerners, I was totally Westernized by the style of that, but then I discovered to them that they were so real valued, and now he became an expert, he's very intelligent, an expert in Hindu and Buddhist spiritual tradition.

[33:55]

So you see, I think there is no need. And now it's time to stop my talk. But it's good for us to notice all this fact, you know, in order to think sometimes, to relativize certain observances, not to think that they are essential, essentially evangelical, you know. They are just human and good, for the time being, as long as they work, you know. but also to see always more the specificity of what makes Christian monasticism to be Christian. The total dedication to Christ, total denunciation to everything which is not the love of Christ, and total service of Christ in his church, in his community, by his main structures of monastic life, mainly prayer. The real separation, I'm not afraid of the world, is anachronism, anachronism. Take a distance. The world has been applied to Jesus about ten times, according to the books.

[34:58]

To that extent, I think that enclosure is a basic, fundamental observance of every form of monastic life. I said enclosure in general, I didn't say the historical enclosure. But you know, all these things, many, then abstinence of course of consecrated celibacy for the kingdom, organization, poverty, charity, obedience, common life, all that. has to become always more turbulently evangelical, not as the values in themselves as observance seems to do, but as means to personally encounter Jesus and serve him in the church or the world. Yes, yes. But it's very difficult to understand. I'm not sure I understand it. It's a paradox. It's a mystery. And that's why I'm glad you bring it to this point, because it has been, you know, a constant idea.

[36:00]

Being at the heart, you know, and the stopped heart is a little flaw. It's sadistic, you know, being at the heart, and it gives up quite a lot of evidences. the center in early medieval monastic tradition, and then different names, and recent books, and then the repertoire, I shall be the heart, you know. So I think it's one of the means, one of the ways to be at the heart. And of course, when we say that, we are also to be careful about a sort of monopoly mentality. Monks and nuns, how they are. But it's a way to express. We are women, we must be clean and modest. We are not, you know, careful not to think that we are the guy who keeps the thing going, you know. But, you know, what is the meaning? And one of the best, of course, expressions of that had been St. Theodora of Lisieux, when, in a wonderful age of theology and ecclesiology, she said, I would like to be a martyr, to be a missionary, to be a preacher, to be everything.

[37:07]

I am just a young, sick, dumb, and I can do nothing. So she understood that being at the center, you know, being in love, active love, continuously, due to this total renunciation. She would be at the heart, and therefore united to the absolute love of God. So marginality consists mainly, as I said, in manifestation of this phenomenon. It's an inward separation. So you can be monks and nuns and so on. In fact, in the inner city, in the slums and all that, everywhere, you know, that doesn't mean that you have to go in the sauna. And in fact, the first monks didn't go very far. They go in the suburbs, countryside, not very far. Otherwise it was impossible to live. There was no water, you know. But, so, it's not so much mixed.

[38:09]

Martinality is a certain spiritual attitude, or a distance, a touch, not identification with the easy life, you know, the comfort of life, which people normally, reasonably have, you know. And it manifests to a certain forms of, it leaves a certain difference, you know. in dressing, in hair, in eating and so forth. But the main problem, and that was all the continuation of the historical problem for the bishop and for the monks, to keep this identity of marginals, of dissatisfied people, dissatisfied of the usual meetings in the afternoon, tonight, and so forth, or even here, in non-national countries, but we all try to satisfy, and not for the sake of being insatiable, and so forth, but for the sake of being more obedient to God's prayer.

[39:15]

And so I think since the post-nationality, The person of Jesus, who is? I think it might sound a little difficult for us to try and find out how to implement balance. Is it so difficult? Don't you know it? I think you don't. You are Charminite, you are sitting there, you are praying to a song, you are then concentrating on the facilities that you have, you are the Charminite, and so forth.

[40:24]

And at the same time, you are united with the Church, you are concerned with the Church, you are praying with the Church, for the Church, for the Church. You are, of course, the imaginary person and the person of the heart. You do it. You must not, you know, when I say that, you must not indulge in the danger of idealizing, theorizing, taking in a new, you know, a new sort of theory, absolutely, to the sort of mystical high state form of the people, you know? No. It's realistic. Just try to project a sort of blind historical viewpoint on a reality which you are living. But you see, you know, But I'm glad you asked this question, because of course the danger would always be self-complacent. Very little, a terrible small percentage, or a certain small percentage. Proud of the fact that the monarchs were observants.

[41:26]

Proud about their good observance. So the monarch would say, ah, I'm a real monarch who has observance, and I'm a strict observant. And there were some others, in some orders, went to serve, and it became the name of the order. That was the Franciscan life of the observant. And people discussed it, but it became the site, and the site is used to call the strict observant. which historically may be understandable, but you know, the danger would always be to see that I am the real person, I am the heart, I am the mind, and all the other things. No, in fact, we never properly succeed. I think we must always accept that Christian life is a danger, isn't it? Apparently, Christ's life was a failure. He failed. He didn't succeed. He would not succeed at all. He would succeed beyond failure. And so I think we have to always strive towards, not perfection, but to be perfectly united with Christ.

[42:28]

But knowing that we never succeed, so we are little monks and nuns, but We are not good monks and nuns, you know. I don't think they exist, no. There's no more monks and nuns than Indian perfect ones, you know. It's not to have the sense of perfection or failure or success. Well, I wanted to ask, kind of in the light of what you said this morning about the future of monotheism and the new species that's going to come, And those of us who are trying to renew our oldest from within, or let the Holy Spirit renew us from within, do you see it as possible? You mentioned specifically in my last year with Jimi Hearson, Victor, the new forms arising, and the possibility of, you know, what are your thoughts? However, I think it's possible. It's critical.

[43:30]

In history, we see two examples of further renewing themselves. Let's hope I'm there. As you see in the camera, I told her when Theresa and Tommy Corbyn wanted to install here, to leave them. That's why there are two. tour, you know, and in the monastic life then, a branch had to go out, the cistercians, and there were too much identified, you know, the branch went out, there were the typists, you know, and today some new branch go out, you know. So, I think, And in the Franciscan, it's all the older, then you have the so-called proliferation, and you have the observance, you know, and then you have the, what's called the contentual, which is so-called completionism, with certain aspects of St. Francis, and then you have new branches, then when they were all, so to speak, secularized to a certain extent, then you have the Catechism, you know, and so forth. It's a so-called process, you know, religious life engendered new branches, the same trunk, you know, but the same tree.

[44:32]

New branches. Now, I think nevertheless it's possible. I'm not saying it's possible, but we already can. We can already see that many other groups, all others, are renewed, you know, in the way you did, you know. And so, it's normal that there will be, and there already are, some new new state, yes, new representative, and by the way, when I was mentioning the wandering picture, I forgot to mention, so I mean, the Sock, who died last December, he was a former Benedictine monk whom I knew before, and then he was a wandering man from, even I asked him, you know, Serbic age, and he told me, yeah, it was close to my age, but He had a harder life. He died and this thing, my man, was a parcel of wealth. I don't think I'm in the center of his soul. It's going to stop. Anyway, you see, so he was an example of this new, and he was still a good Benedictine.

[45:34]

We were in touch with his community at the time. So I think there are these new groups, you know. And when the, for instance, when the first slum life started, in the 200s, to an extent, many other groups started, you know. And some didn't survive, but then, The spirit met and the half an hour was that some great person were there and after that there was great crisis, they become pictures, but at least the nuns get the idea, you know. So, always, you know. And when the Cistercian started, you know, there were many other new groups, and many of them either disappeared or joined the Cistercian or the Carthaginians of the group. So in each time of notation, and that's correct, you know, right? Here we get Carthaginians. They always say Gashin, West. Gashin, Gashin, Gashin. I said, no, no. Well, something lost in the West, I think. West, you know? I can't believe it. West, I love it. So, in order to, and we have to be patient and to, not always to be patient and feel very sad when are you going to have constitution to be approved, no, that's the side of it.

[46:51]

And so I think it's possible, it works. We'll both win, you know. There are these new states here, and I think they are the most famous. I think, in fact, they are not starting now. So the first one, the first one just after the war, you know, in 1948, the first one, nowadays, I think, was sort of celebrated on the 25th. I think that was the most of the origin was here. But then, sure, after, and there are plenty of them, you know. Yes, they like to be winning. Of course, they don't have the title, but they exist. But I think it's also possible that in all the great order, there has been a real renewal. But sometimes it's more difficult because the people in charge of the organization feel responsible to maintain what exists. And in order, you know, our discourse has been. But now, I think, you know, General Ken, this topic was quite a new pair, you know, not always the problem, but at least you see a new orientation, a new freedom, a new threshold, some window open.

[48:04]

So I think it's possible, and I think It's necessary because all the great crests, skulls, of the great skeletal credits, the Quokka, the Vigitanbeak, the Vika, the Kaurna, will have something specific to maintain it, to be a pity if they would disappear. But they have to keep, and I think also they have to share it, to convey it to these new states. The monastic order of the Kaurna, Kaurna, I tried to I belong to the old world, but I'm interested in the young world, and the future always belongs to you. So I think we have to help the old values, you know, feudal, exterior, and the post, to pass to the new. And I think we have to do this as a country. We must help, I think, to ensure it works, and it already works. But it's a matter of both of us, you know, trust in God, and charity.

[49:06]

Because a society, an institute, a community does not change or does not disappear overnight like an individual. There are personal conversions, but it's rare. There are some cases of conventional conversion. But normally there are some individuals who act as a threat. You see that? They threaten. And it's normal. And it's frightening. It's excellent. not to introduce the strongman and so on and so forth, like this, [...] this. To make this a sort of stimulus, you know, and to oblige us to be intelligent, patient, strong. Well, I think I'm full of hope that it has already worked. Well, it worked. When you were talking about the future of religion, life, and poverty, would you like to elaborate on that? Yes.

[50:11]

Poverty is both a problem, an idea, and a practice. I think both these two have various approaches. In the motives of poverty, there is always the main fact that Jesus was voluntarily led to. Not indigent, he had what he needed, but he renounced the factory bills, the riches, the power, the wealth. He rejected, in particular, every dividend. That's all the mystery of the poverty of Christ. Poverty of Christ, okay, but he was not to be in need of the daily inventory of things to give and so forth. He didn't die out of hunger. Tools for God, and God is very clear about that, and that was best discorded quite by the contents and the contents were reported on the newspaper. Though he was God, preached as God, he became poor too, for our sake, in order to share with us the riches of his lineage, of his divine being and his resurrection.

[51:16]

Which means that he renounced every privilege he would have had as son of God. Though he was equal to the Father, he could not be an exaltation for him to be equal to God. He humbled himself obedient up to death. Death on the cross. That's essentially the mystery of God. Now, this mystery, we are always to distinguish, right or wrong, poverty, obedience, celibacy, community, life, everything. It has to be mystery and feast. In history, we always, the mystery is too great, so we always limit it and we project an aspect of it in our little human being, you know. And so, in the mystery of the poverty of Christ, Tom insists more on this and denies total renunciation to every superiority, privilege, power. Some insisted more on the circumstances of this poverty, you know. The Franciscans, the monks, first insisted more on the community of good, you know.

[52:19]

And then the Franciscans, the Francists, insisted more on a certain moment of Jesus in the table, on the cross, and when he was practically poor, but before being a man who was poor, he was a poor man, at least, you know, to share in this deep poverty, and then it manifesting in poverty of life. Then it went on, you know, and the transgressions were more on the life in nature, the poor life, the living in a small position of life. There are values and values even at the level of autism. And still now, of course, at the level of poverty, poverty is always And that's why we are all in the dignity of the same interest of poverty as well as of condo also. But poverty is essentially non-property, non-possessible. I think the programs have a beautiful formula and for me to live in obedience and chastity without property.

[53:26]

You know the story of the one who mixed the formula and said, I promise to rid the Indians of poverty without chastity. I hope I didn't say without poverty, but without poverty. He made poverty was the next formula. So you see, Now, of course, the first monks were proprietors and were always more so. That's why when they became tourists, all the reform movements were towards more poverty. And, in fact, the reforms of the Church, including the great reform which we have been witnessing, the reform Vatican II, has insisted enormously on return to God. But now poverty is always relative to a certain level of of development. What would be in America would be a luxury in New Guinea. So you have not tried to establish the constitution, we have shall get the expense of many pounds on the price of oil every day and that applies to the world.

[54:36]

No. Poverty is a problem which cannot receive a solution. As usual, there is no solution. There is not one solution. It's a problem which we have to cope. And each of us persons and as communities, I think we have to. And everything is said very clearly in the chapter on poverty, defective charities and so on. But we have always to check, you know, whether we live with a minimal thing. But as minimal, the value that we are in to the the development, the needs of food, drink, and comfort, and heat, which you are just talking about particular time and conflict. So we are not, there is no solution, but each community must speak, and each person cultivate the problem, you know. regularly ask themselves, are we still in life? Don't we introduce too much easiness of life, too much comfort, too much good food?

[55:37]

And sometimes, of course, we resist this, and that's not the reason, because we have what they call system of sharing, or accepting to share, to give to others. So you see, it's a... Practically, each community has to solve the problem, to at least live with the problem, and to at least try to live in this sort of non-process. I think it's time to stop. Don't force it.

[56:05]

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