May I begin by confessing, I think, a mistake that I made earlier, which was that first the bathing happens before the chanting. So there may have been chanting going on as the person was dying, which is fine. But then the first thing that happens after the death is the ritual bathing and changing the clothes. Then we do the ceremony of reciting those two scriptures. Now at this point, in some cases, there could be another ceremony, or there could be a vigil.

[01:26]

In other words, just being quiet and present with the deceased. Or there could be a wake. A wake is where actually people are there and actually talk about the person. If the person died early in the day, then you could have the wake sometime during the day and it could go on for a while. And of course the visual also doesn't have a definite length of time. the wake is not specified as a particular ceremony.

[02:33]

And the wake could, instead of being done at this time, could be done sometime later at a memorial service. So a memorial service can be quite a bit later, after the cremation, and gives people coming from a distance times to come. So the wake could be really a memorial service. But also there could be a wake right at this time. The next ceremony is the ceremony of receiving the precepts. So this is something that you, most of you, might be interested in, and some of your family members. So this is kind of like Buddhist, now it gets specifically Buddhist, because we have the giving of the Bodhisattva precepts.

[03:38]

So this is a ritual razor. So this is a ritual razor used for the ceremony for people who are not already ordained as priests. This is the ritual razor. So before receiving the precepts, both as a priest and a lay person, the first thing that's done is renunciation and shaving the head.

[05:13]

So that's something for you to think about if you would like to have this ritual shaving before receiving the precepts as part of the ceremony. And also whether somebody could ask you to have this done. This part of the ceremony, I would think probably you should have a priest do this part. And again, not all priests can do this part. So if you wish to have this next section of the ceremony done, this probably should be done by a priest. Otherwise, it might cause some disturbance. And again, this could be done fairly soon after the previous ceremony.

[06:18]

And so during head shaving, the priest holds this razor and makes various gestures with it. Gestures of shaving with chanting. This is what's chanting while shaving. Shaving your hair. We pray together with all sentient beings that you be eternally free from affliction and enter into nirvana, the ultimate state. And this is chanted three times while doing this ritual shaving. So the shaving is ritualized, not literal? Yes, the head is not touched. We already, in the case of a priest, we would also shave the head just to tidy up.

[07:35]

In the case of a lay person, if they have a beard, we would actually shave the beard. They don't have a beard. And then we just wouldn't shave them. Now this part is a ritual shaving. I don't know if this, I haven't tested to see if this is sharp. But the blade is actually held towards the priest. It's not put on the head of the person. So the priest is making this ritual gesture of shaving the head of the deceased person. So this is, in a sense, making the person a monk at the time of death. Yes? Could this be done in the house instead of the body, if the body isn't available? Yes. Yes. So, if... I'm talking about, we still are with the body, but if you had, for whatever reason, sent the body away early on to be cremated, you didn't do these ceremonies with the body, the corpse, and you sent the body away to be cremated, and now you're doing, you could do this ceremony with the ashes.

[09:00]

The same gestures towards the ashes. Yes? What kind of disturbance were you referring to that could happen if it wasn't a priest? Well, people might say, who does she think she's doing shaving the head and giving the precepts? Is she qualified to do that? And the answer might be, well, I don't know, I don't think so. I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you mentioned it, was she trained to do this? You know? So maybe some kind of like, this is weird. You know? And we don't want, we want everybody to be kind of like, this is helpful. We have no questions about this. Nobody's taking something that's not given in terms of authority. So... It should be a feeling of confidence in this process. And if you've asked someone to lead the ceremony, then it should be clear the person's entrusted with that responsibility from the tradition.

[10:18]

And so then everyone's like, okay, you want this, they're qualified, fine. So in the case of a lay ordination for a living person, we actually don't shave the head, but we cut a little bit of the hair with scissors and leave the hair. If it's a priest, we actually shave all the hair off for the ordination. Okay? Question? When you mentioned about the confidence, at the moment what came to my mind was thoughtless. So there is this ceremony being done, and the reason we have the priest doing it is for the purpose of there would be no thought in the event or what's happening.

[11:20]

Is that so? Is it not? When you say no thought, you mean people aren't disturbed in thinking about it? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And we want that. Okay. So then my question is, I myself, even as a child, I remember being in those ceremonies, but I always kind of wondered, even about the ceremony or the priest and all that, even as a child, I was not... I wasn't disturbed, but it was, I didn't believe, you know, it was kind of fun more than being no thought. So I'm wondering... Fun sounds okay. But just not, you know, like worried and anxious about what's going on. Yeah, okay, so not worried, okay. Thank you.

[12:21]

So again, when we do initiation of lay bodhisattvas, we cut the hair a little bit with the scissors. With priests, we shave all the hair. And then we move into receiving the precepts. So this is our special thing and as you may observe it looks brand new yes looks like a price tag it's not a price tag it's not a price tag but it is a little wrapper of the top of the tassel And I'm not sure what the second character is, but the first character means true or upright.

[13:24]

Look up the second character. This is brand new, has not been, has not ritually touched anybody. It's available for use at the appropriate moment. And many of you are familiar with the rest of the ceremony where we first do a confession and repentance before we receive the precepts.

[14:40]

So we just do the usual thing, and the leader of the ceremony says, all my ancient twisted karma, And then everyone there who is up for the ceremony repeats it. And the priest says, from the beginning of this greed, hate, and delusion, and everyone says it. And the priest says, born through body, speech, and mind, everyone says that. I fully follow, everyone says that. It can be done once or three times. usually when the person receiving the precepts is alive, we ask the person, do you wish to receive these precepts? And they say, yes, I do. So again, in this case, the person has already asked for the precepts.

[15:43]

So if people ask me to do a Buddhist ceremony for someone who hasn't been asked, I personally do not feel comfortable giving the precepts if the person themselves didn't ask. Which is, again, kind of sad. If the family wants the person to have the ceremony and the person didn't ask, but I just don't feel right. And if the family doesn't want it, and the person asks for it, well, I'll do it anyway. but that's why it's good I would still do it if the person asked me does that make sense? even if the family doesn't like it I still would do it that's why it's good for the person to tell I asked him to do this please let this happen I've never had a problem when that happened but I have been asked to do ceremonies by people who didn't ask me so I don't know family thinks it'd be nice, but they didn't ask me, so I just feel kind of sorry about that.

[16:47]

Not very often has that happened. Okay? So again, if you want this kind of thing to be done for you, or if you want it to be done for a loved one, please tell them to ask for it. Because in ceremony they can't answer the question, do you wish to receive these precepts? Would this part of the ceremony ever be done later, quite a bit later? You weren't there for the next ten hours or twelve hours. Would receiving the priesthood be done two weeks later? Yes. Again, you could do all these ceremonies. If the body had been sent away to the mortuary process away from you, and you got the ashes back. You could do the whole process with the ashes.

[17:51]

You don't wash the ashes, but you could put clothes on the ashes, right? You could put the rocks... on the ashes. The ashes come back in a container, you can move the ashes into a container, put white cloth around the ashes, and you could put the rock suit on the ashes. Does that make sense? This all could happen with the ashes. The ashes could stand in for the body, and they are standing in for the body. But this is what I'm talking about. If you have the body, and then you could substitute ashes for whatever I'm saying, and you could shave the head of the ashes. Same gestures, same chanting. And then you could do the confession of repentance with the ashes. Even if you didn't have the ashes,

[18:56]

If someone died and you couldn't find their body, you could do it without the ashes or the body. But the unusual thing in the West is not to do it with the body. That's not so common. We don't very often do this ceremony I'm just talking about right now. We don't usually do the head shaving of the body, but that's the traditional way to tidy up the body and then do the ritual shaving of the body. But the other ways, other situations, this ceremony could apply to. Does that make sense? It's a spiritual matter, but it's important sometimes to do it with If the opportunity is there, it's good. If the opportunity is not there, it's good.

[20:00]

So some of you may not work out to do what I'm talking about with the body, for whatever reason. So we'll do this. But you can specify. Again, I would like to be cremated first and then have this happen. I could support that. Okay? So, again, the next part is confession and repentance, and then the next part is giving the three refuges. And before the refuges are given, just like we do for living people, we do a ritual sprinkling of empowered water, wisdom water, where the lineage, the wisdom of the lineage is put into the water, and this wisdom water is sprinkled upon the person. So they've done the confession repentance, and they've now been sprinkled with this, anointed with this wisdom water, and now we give them the three refuges.

[21:09]

The priest says, I take refuge in Buddha, and then everybody who's present says that. It would be all right with me if I had a mixed group of some people who would chant it and some people who wouldn't. Does that make sense? So some family members or friends who are not into Buddhism but into nothing or other religions, they could be there and they probably wouldn't, they might not want to do this chant. Or they might not be into Buddhism and do the chant. And then suddenly they would be into Buddhism. It's all right with me. If nobody there wanted to do it, I would do it.

[22:11]

Just by myself. Because the person asked me to. If one of you asked me to, and nobody else was around, I would still do the same ceremony. Just nobody would be there to respond to my recitation. Is this all working okay so far? So I would do the three refuges, and then I would do the three pure precepts, which is... I vow to embrace and sustain correct conduct. I vow to embrace and sustain all good. I vow to embrace and sustain all beings. I would do those with whoever wanted to respond to that. Then I would offer the ten major Bodhisattva precepts. And that would be the next major phase of the ceremony. If the person died late at night, like if I died late tonight, then maybe we'd wake up tomorrow morning to do this ceremony.

[23:32]

Maybe it'd be too late. We wouldn't necessarily want to wake people up. and have them come in late at night to do these ceremonies, so we could do these ceremonies the next day. If the person died in the morning or during the day sometime, we could do these ceremonies the same day. So these ceremonies I'm talking about so far, the ceremonies after the cleaning and changing the clothes and the ceremonies of giving the precepts are done. right away, but if, first chance, it right away doesn't work because it's so late at night, we can wait until the next day. But it can't be done the same day. Now, let's say it's been done. Now, I would say again, there's a point of flexibility here. We could spend the rest of the day sitting quietly with the person.

[24:41]

And the person could have been the person not yet in the coffin. They could be in the room they died in, or they could be moved to the temple. And then they would be in the temple. This precept ceremony could occur in the temple, or this precept ceremony could occur in the room they died in. So now they have received the precepts, and there's some period of quiet with them. Now we have, on a number of occasions at Zen Center, been with the body for up to three days before the body goes to the crematorium. And again, you could ask for that. In the room you die in, or the room you move to from the place where you died, you could request to be left in state.

[25:54]

for one or two days. That would be okay. And then people could come and be with you after the ritually ordained you. And during that time you could have a quiet sitting with the person. But it would also be okay if you wanted to ask. There could be some chanting going on for one or two days. Yes. Why are you saying, be with you, instead of being with the body? Why are you... I imagine you're intentionally speaking that way. Part of the reason for the three days is that there's some sense that people are somewhat present for some period of time. And in some unusual cases, I'm laughing because it's kind of funny that some practitioners are sometimes, even though they're wonderful people, they're a little bit show-offs.

[27:02]

They stay around for a long time. So you have the examples of these world-class yogis keeping the body warm for long periods of time. Boy, she kept the body warm for seven days. So, you know, anyway, there is some sense of presence. And then there's also some experience of the person's not present. And it varies from person to person. Some people feel like, boy, she really left fast. And other people feel like, I really felt she was there for a long time, and then I felt like she wasn't. There's these kind of feelings that we have. So out of respect for that, we sometimes observe this period of time So I don't really know about this, but there is a sense of, well, you know, we can do this. We can make a space of quiet and peace around this situation-person for a while.

[28:12]

We don't exactly know. This is quite a mystery, this whole thing. So it's like our practice is usually kind of a mystery. And the mystery doesn't stop. And so when a person dies, the mystery goes on. And so we don't say, oh, there's no mystery about this. This person's dead. Get her out. We continue to kind of be in awe of the whole situation of this kind of illusion of death and the illusion of life. But what is the illusion? It's not separate from reality kind of illusion. It's mysterious, the relationship between reality and illusion, between birth and death and nirvana. It's all kind of very profound. And this is a time when maybe we could really pay attention to that.

[29:14]

At a time when we have a lot of feelings about, you know, whether we fulfilled our responsibility to the person, and the person, whether they fulfilled their responsibility. So all this is going on, potentially. And maybe the person is completely gone, but we're not gone, and we have a lot of feelings. So let's not rush past all this. So, is the person anything different from all the feelings we're having about them, which are still going on, even though they're gone? I don't know how you draw a line between all that I'm feeling for the person and what the person is. So this person is really important to me because I'm having all these feelings. So they're kind of still here. The consequences of their life are still like alive here. So that's part of the person. Okay? So I could say the corpse, the person, my relationship, all that.

[30:19]

Yes and yes. I think she's raised her hand before me. I was wondering about the meaning of doing the precepts at that time. If there's anything more you can say about that. Why is that done at that time? Well, number one is the person might not have received the precepts. That seems more clear. And number two is that if they have received the precepts as a lay bodhisattva, they're now becoming a monk bodhisattva. And the Buddha was a monk. So you're kind of like becoming a Buddha. Whereas before you were maybe waiting for a little while, before you waited for that. But now there's no problem.

[31:24]

You don't have to take care of your business anymore. You don't have to take care of your grandchildren. You don't have to do income tax. Anyway, if you want, now you can have a more complete entry into the Sangha. And again, this is a tradition, but it's an optional tradition. If you want it, if you want this kind of... You can have a discussion and say, I don't want to do that part of the ceremony. I already did it. Okay. This is not a time to be a virgin. From my perspective. Yes. I had an experience of sitting with somebody who died for a few days and it was so helpful because when I started I still saw the body breathing.

[32:29]

I mean, I don't know how that happened, but I could not take in that it was dead. It took three days and then i finally saw the body stop and it was so helpful to know that he was really dead yeah i've heard that from other people too they were it it took a long time to actually realize or accept that the person was dead and if they hadn't had that time they would have felt kind of torn or unresolved because they So that's the advantage of waiting a while to give those who really need to be there a chance to say, oh yeah, I mean, theoretically I know the debt, but I don't get it. And then suddenly, oh, I get it. So that's another potentially very helpful thing. Some people don't get it right away.

[33:31]

So then you continue with whatever questions or whatever, you know, you carry on as though they were still. Yeah, and also during this time, if you're going to wait a while, then this having the dry ice or other kinds of cooling things around the body is kind of, it seems like it's fine to do that, and it does decrease the It slows things down, so it also keeps the situation from becoming too strong smelling and things like that. So I think it's an opportunity available to put cooling agents around the body, keep the room open and not too hot. It's quite helpful. And also, I just want to mention, just what popped in my head that I had that initial, my first funeral was with Suzuki Roshi and Trudy Dixon, and I appreciated that.

[34:43]

And I don't remember my second or third funeral, but I saw quite a few funerals after that. This is like, from night between 1968 and 1977. I saw a lot of funerals. But I think none of them did I actually see the body at the funeral. I saw the deceased person, but they weren't there for the funeral. The first corpse I saw where it's actually part of the funeral ceremony was my father. And yeah, I walked up to the casket and there was my father, somewhat, you know, made up and so on, in one of his nice suits. And it was a very, very helpful moment for me to see him. And just to burst into just tremendous sobbing and tears.

[35:45]

It was so beautiful. He looked so sweet. And it wasn't sad. I was so... It was just so lovely. All this emotion coming through me. about what a sweet father I had. And then some other people tried to stop me because they thought it wasn't so good that I was crying so much. So for their sake I stopped. But I wish they had left me alone. I wish I knew how long that would have gone on. Because I was having a really good time just being with this body of this person and seeing and realizing what a sweet person he was. And also, in a way, what a tragedy he was and how his tragedy was very helpful to me. It was very lovely. Yes, and Delfina? Thank you for this today.

[36:50]

It's really moving and helpful. I was thinking about my mom passed a few years ago. She was in a boarding care home and we got to stay with her body. It was three generations. Anyways, for me it was really healing because I got to see my dad cry, which I never seen him cry before. And then my daughter cried. I don't know, it's just something so powerful about the generations and being together, but they have a span of time. Yeah. So that's... And we can do that now. It's not so difficult to do in California, to have an opportunity to be with the deceased person's body for a while. Yes. So I've always, I don't know, I guess I hadn't thought about it a lot, but I always thought it would be a good thing to be an organ donor.

[37:55]

And then now as you're describing how helpful it can be for people to have a moment to connect with the body, that seems in conflict with volunteering your body to be taken away immediately. And I didn't expect to actually ever doubt that organ donor choice. And now I'm thinking about my, you know, like if I died tomorrow, my parents would probably benefit a lot from having a minute to come connect. Probably. So what do you think about that? I think it's a sense of, you know, which is most important. And it's not like a black and white situation because even if you do donate your body... Still, we can do ceremonies that your parents could be part of. It's not like they get nothing if you do that. But there is something to be said for you to have some quiet time and to receive all this love and support and teaching.

[39:01]

But your process is going on. But it's not like you don't get any if you give your body to that medical process. You still get benefit from that. So it's like both paths, I think, are good. And both paths are beneficial, potentially. And it's an individual decision about which... If everybody donated, pretty soon they wouldn't want the donations anymore. But I would support both ways. And if you chose the donation way, there still could be ceremonies for you and for your friends and family. There still could be that. But it is different to be quiet with the body and feel what it's like to be with the body and do these ceremonies than to have the body go away and then do the ceremonies afterwards.

[40:05]

It's somewhat different. I don't really feel one's better than the other. I just want you to know a little bit about some possibilities, and that will help you decide. Maybe make it more difficult for a little while, then you have a more mature decision that you can make. It's not between nothing and doing organ donation. It's between some quite beneficial, potentially quite beneficial process for all concerned, and another quite beneficial process for all concerned. There's so many ways we can help and be helped, right? And I think it's nice to find a way to respect many paths, many beneficial paths. Yes? I'm guessing that your father was involved with that. Yes. What are your feelings about that?

[41:07]

I mean, I'm sure you're not going to. Yeah. Okay, so now my father was embalmed and I was like in another state. Nobody asked me about this. But, you know, I... Yeah, I personally do not want to do that. I don't think embalming really... It benefits maybe the mortuary company. That's because I think they're trying to be helpful. I'm happy to support them, but I don't particularly want that to happen. I don't particularly want to be embalmed myself. And some other people don't. But I think if they do... I can work with that. In my father's case, I still had quite a very meaningful experience with him, even though that happened. But if you asked me, if anybody asked me, do you want this to be done to your father?

[42:09]

I would say, no, I don't want this. But they did ask me. He had remarried and it was, I think his wife was in charge. And our founder, Suzuki Roshi, his wife decided to have him embalmed. So I went with his body to the mortuary service, and there he was, and then they embalmed him. And then he came back to Zen Center, for quite a long time, more than three days, because if the body's embalmed, then you have more than three days to be with the body. But the body's gone through this process, which I don't know what to say about, but they've been in a, you know, I don't think those people let the family be there while they're doing their thing.

[43:14]

So the person has been taken away from loved ones, and to go through this process, and then they can come back. And you can have the embalmed course for a while. And so he had Suzuki Roshi for a week or so in an embalmed state. Some other people get embalmed in the funeral home. People come and do a visual with the embalmed body at the funeral home. Which again, it's not terrible. People go there and sit with the embalmed person and have good experience. You know, partly just that they're sitting quietly. That's a good experience. So, yeah, I think it's up to the person and or their family to determine that. But I don't want it, and if you don't want it, I support that.

[44:15]

If you do want it, I support it. And so if you want to be embalmed and then cremated, or you want to be embalmed and buried, both ways I can support and try to make that a good experience for everybody. Would you say that involvement is so disrespectful? Well, you don't know, you know. Maybe some people, somehow they do the process and they're totally devoted to the... to the spiritual welfare of all beings and they do this as part of that? I don't know. It seems like some people do their job disrespectfully, like some people, some garbage collectors do it respectfully maybe, and some don't. You know, it depends on the person. It's possible that someone would do that process and it would be an act of compassion. But we don't know, usually, how they do it.

[45:16]

And just like some people clean the body in a very respectful, skillful, artful way, other people clean the body kind of in a rush or whatever. So I'm clear about what I want, but I don't know. I can't judge other people. And it seems pretty hard to I don't know of a training for how to embalm people in a respectful way. It doesn't seem like a very easy situation to be respectful. But it's not impossible. Some surgeons can cut a body respectfully. Some surgeons are not respectful. Yes? Yes? Did you have your hand raised? Yeah, I did. I thought so. I appreciate today very much. Thank you. And we've been talking about dialogues and continuing dialogues.

[46:24]

Can you hear her? And I... She said we've been talking about dialogue. Will you please speak up? And continuing dialogues so that it doesn't stop. The dialogue continues. And that what came up is... the benefit of being here today, and that we might be unsure about things, but I would like to have great dialogue with my husband and my child about the process, because I feel like it isn't just me as an individual. No. This tradition is not about just me. It's about me in dialogue. That's what this tradition is, so this is... how to continue the dialogical process of reality when this kind of thing happens. And to talk about it beforehand usually will help be alert to the dialogical possibilities even when death comes.

[47:30]

Same with birth. Some people are not dialogical at birth. At big events there can be dialogue and conversation and it's more real and more wonderful. And we can also miss the opportunity. So we're talking about how to continue that and some traditions about how to do that. I just wanted to mention Another possibility that I heard about in a couple of days on NPR, they had a story on a tribe in Indonesia that lives with their dead. They actually will dig them up and take them food and sit them at a table. Not so much in a ritualistic way because, I mean, it was a short story, so... I didn't have time to pursue it and really find out.

[48:33]

But you could tell life was going on all around. Kids were running around playing and they were brushing the dead person's hair and putting ribbons in them, you know. How amazing people will think of things to do. And they were not at all unhappy. You know, they were... Somehow those people were still... They had developed a whole way of keeping them going. That's another tradition. Yes and yes? Yes? This might be for workshop two. You can tell me if you want to talk about that. But I'm interested in when you hear some of these very ill and then you get the call they're dying or the person's in the hospital and he's taking off life support. I'm interested in the space when you've gone to the hospital or the hospice room and they're about to die and it takes a long time.

[49:44]

And that was quite surprising to me that several times I've been involved how long dying takes. And what You know, at some point, it's almost, you almost say, okay, diary. I'm in this tremendously hyped up, pretty traumatic state. And it goes on and on. And I wonder if you have any... And you mean to say that that state, the person is dying, but the person is there, where, okay, I'm ready for it... Yeah, that's another workshop. That's another workshop. So if you want to have a workshop on how to deal with dying, we can do that. This is about when that part's over, okay? You have a new set of problems, which we don't talk about so much. We have a Zen center hospice, and the Zen center is the other side. And in Japan, they think Zen centers are basically for dealing with dead people. I'd like you to know about that side more.

[50:47]

Yes. I'm talking about involving meaning. Do you have any suggestions for softening the process when somebody dies in circumstances where autopsy is required? You mean how to soften the autopsy? How to make that process softer, either for the person or for their families. I don't really know, maybe some other people know, but I think actually you have almost no say on them, what they're going to do, or how they're going to do it. you know, their attitude and stuff like that, in terms of, like, talking to them. You could try. And some people might be receptive. But you can practice, you can do lots of practices while an autopsy is going on. You can do lots of things to make a context to protect the spiritual health of the situation, even though some people

[51:51]

are not interested that you're doing that. And they're not going to talk to you about it. And they've got a lot of problems. They're under a lot of stress, you know, to do a good job and get promoted and stuff like that. They have all that stuff. So we're praying for the whole situation. We can do that. But they have all their agendas and responsibilities, which... we may not be able to do anything about that other than wish them well. I have been to see some friends of mine that their daughter died under circumstances. Yeah, I can imagine they feel terrible about that, possibly. Especially a baby. Well, this wasn't a dog. They couldn't do anything about it. Can you imagine how terrible that would be for you to have your little baby get cut? They felt like they had to do some kind of procedure like that.

[52:53]

Yes? Regarding involving, you know, I sometimes, without being too morbid, I've thought about involving versus cremation versus organic miracle. And when I think about these things, every one of them seems to have some other unpleasant aspect. And I just wondered, what do you feel about embalming? I wonder if it's because, first of all, you're filling the body with this toxic fluid. Then it's sealed in this, like a concrete box, and sort of cut off from nature. Is that kind of what you were thinking when you said, I'd really like them both? I think you can embalm a body and then put it in the ground. So I, pardon? You're not allowed anymore because it leaches toxins. It's filled with poison.

[53:56]

Because it's toxic, yeah. So what do they do with embalmed bodies? They put them in some kind of concrete grace line. Yeah. I would think, you know, I think that that's ecologically not so attractive to me. So another reason why I wouldn't want to be embalmed, and I wouldn't particularly hope that other people were embalmed. So I'm sorry, mortuary service, but I guess I'd like to find a way not to do the embalming. It's sort of like a modification, but I don't really know what it does to me. One of the nice things about mummification is they don't leak. You wrap them up. So now, in some sense, we've come to the place where we've done everything on the first day, right?

[54:58]

Everything that we've talked about now is done the first day, and this is before putting the body in the casket or coffin. And then we have some ceremonies that we can do after that. Yes? We were just speaking a little bit about After all, the ceremony is done and the body is, or I don't know when the ceremonies are done, but when the body is either cremated or buried or whatever, there's a thing, you know, there's new, there's these new places where one can be put in the ground without being embalmed. and without a concrete vault? And there are other options for disposal besides cremation with bodies or dooms? Yes, so we can talk.

[56:03]

The cremation has not happened yet today. So the cremation or burial is down the road a ways. So now we're talking about the possibility of being with the deceased person's remains, basically untouched, other than being washed. And we've given them the precepts. And so they're all set. Everything's fine, basically. And now we can leave things like that for a while, for a few hours, or even it could go on overnight, and through a whole other day, and then through another night, and then that would bring us to three days. And then we would do the remaining ceremonies, the remaining traditional ceremonies we could do at that time, or we could do the remaining ceremonies after one night.

[57:04]

So what we've talked about so far is all happening during one day, or late at night, and then during the next day, and then over the night. And over the night we could then do the rest of the ceremonies, or we could wait longer. Does that make sense? If you wanted to extend the possible time with the person. You know, in some sense, the body is a powerful meditation inducer. So if you can keep the body in this nice cared for state, which people do. They come and they take care of it. It's really a nice environment. That's how the world often makes space for it. It's sort of like a mini sashin is set up for us. And everybody kind of usually says, okay, we can do this. We can all really put aside other affairs and just be present with each other.

[58:08]

So that's the phase in the process. We're in that phase now. Which can include silent presence with the body, stillness with the body, but also maybe in a separate place, separate room, that could be like to wake an ongoing discussion and appreciation of the person verbally. So you could have a quiet zone and a talking zone for the rest of the day, or for the rest of the day, and the whole next day, and then the next night, and then we do the final ceremonies the next day. Beyond that, I'm not opposed to it, but usually I don't go more than that. All right? So one more comment, and then we could have a little lunch break. Yes? Just a quick question about when the body is placed in the coffin. I gather that there's some flexibility in that, where in this process.

[59:16]

When we're outside, it seemed like it would be immediately after the washing. I'm changing the story. That the placing in the coffin would be Well, I would say if we're going to put it in the coffin, that we do the Samhain if we're putting the body in the coffin. We haven't done that Samhain yet. And that Samhain happens after the precepts are given. Cleaning. And then ceremony, and then head shaving, and Confession of the Mary of Tantra, and then receiving some scriptures. And then the next ceremony will be placing the body in the coffin. And the body could be moved into a different room without the coffin, or moved from the house into a temple without the coffin. This is the ceremony I'm telling you about.

[60:20]

In the case of an abbot, the ceremony is always to move the person from the place of dying into the zendo, or into the main hall. In that case, it's usually the body is put into the coffin before moving the body, because moving the body is another ceremony. I'm just giving you a simpler ceremony. If you want a more complicated ceremony, you can become ordained as a priest and become an abbot. This one is just as simple. We're doing these ceremonies and then the next ceremony we'll be placing the body in the coffin. Is that enough for this morning? We can have a lunch break and then get back together. Thank you very much. Thank you.

[61:18]

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