Can you start by asking where you were born, and about your family, and how you were born and your children, and your parents? I was born in Osaka, Japan, in 1928, and I have seven brothers and three sisters. Among those, two brothers died, two brothers and one sister died. Now I have five brothers and two sisters. Where are you in these recordings?

[01:02]

The youngest. You're the youngest? I am the youngest. Two brothers live in Kyoto, two brothers live in Osaka, and one sister lives in Kyoto. The other one is in Shiga Prefecture, Nagahama, in Shiga Prefecture. Are you a priest? Yes. Are your parents, your grandparents, not priests? No. My parents run a Japanese restaurant. My grandmother and my grandfather were farmers, Japanese farmers, in Shiga Prefecture.

[02:07]

That's on both sides, your grandparents on your father's side and your grandparents on your mother's side? Both sides. Farmers? Farmers. Can you tell me about the time that you decided to become a priest, how old you were and the circumstances of that decision? Was it your choice? Initially. After the Second World War, my responsibility was to take forward supporting my father and my brother's wife and his son, just one son.

[03:12]

Then I began to work at a company named Yamaoka, Yamaoka, a nine-year-old company, where they made a diesel engine for fishing boats. What was what you just said in Japanese? Was that the name of the company? You just said something in Japanese. Yeah, Yamaoka, Yamaoka, nine-yen-ki, Kabushiki-gaisha. Kabushiki-gaisha is company.

[04:15]

Yamaoka is the name of the company. Nine-yen-ki, I don't know. Nine-yen-ki is nice inside. Nine is to burn. To burn. Ki is massive. Nine-yen-ki. Yamaoka nine-yen-ki. About four hours, no, a year. Was that after the war? After the war, yes. For about four years you worked for this company? No, just one year, about one year, for one year. Then I became pleased that during the working at this company, I was completely, absolutely willing to work at the company because

[05:31]

I felt, to say, I had something which made me alone, alone, or pensive. For instance, the transiency, something like that. Then something compelled me to seek for something more than usual level of working at the company or at the office or something like that. What work did you do for the company? I built the, I cracked, I cracked my job.

[06:39]

My job was to crack the new part of the engine from each department they made. And the parts were made and then? I built, I built completely the engine. Then for a two-hour test, I tried to test whether it was complete or not. That's very responsible. Yeah. But during this year, you had these longings or this feeling of wanting to do something, search out something more? Yeah, particularly after the Second World War. Everything was, everything, everything made me, you know.

[07:41]

Everything which happened, which happened around my life, daily life, made me, you know, made me feel some pensiveness, pensive, or long alone. Transiting, not transiting, transiency. Then that the, but strictly speaking the, the, I like, I loved so much the priest, you know, just a figure of a priest, you know. Particularly Zen priest, shaving head with crown like this.

[08:49]

I strongly, I entirely longed for just a figure, figure of the priest since my, since my childhood. And you know the priest very well? Yes, I know. My parents were very, very, very, very honest. Honest spirit, Buddhist. Belonging to the Shin school, Shinryo, Shin school. So the morning, every morning, every evening, I chant sutra in front of the small family shrine. We had the small family shrine in my, in my house.

[09:53]

Every morning, every, before, every night, before, just before go to bed. Then the, all children, all children had the responsibility for chanting sutras with, with their parents. If I, if they missed this, they couldn't have dinner. They couldn't have breakfast. So it's very strict. But they always, they always chant the name of Amitabha, Nami Amida Butsu. Yes, you say Nami Amida Butsu. But usually they don't say, they don't say Nami Amida Butsu. They don't say, they say Nama Amida Butsu, Nama Amida Butsu, Nama Amida Butsu.

[11:00]

This is very rhythmical. And it was very impressed, I was very impressed by this rhythmical chanting the name of Amitabha. Regardless of whether I, I could, I could understand what it is or not. I really, I was very impressed by this name, the chanting, the voice, you know, coming from the, my parents' heart, you know. I was very impressed by it. How long during the time were they chanting? The, every morning and the, not so much, about 30 minutes, 30 minutes or so. In the morning? In the morning and in the afternoon and at night. Nami Amida Butsu, just repeating that? No, no, they chanted the Asutra, Shoshin-ge, that's Shinshu's sutra, Shoshin-ge.

[12:11]

And after that, they, they, they chanted the name of Amitabha, Nama Amida Butsu. That they, several times, they don't have a particular time. I can't remember how many times they, they chanted. They just continued, you know. Then, they all, in their daily life, they, they always chanted. As often as they necessary required. Always. They, because, because of the, the idea of, where they could be, maybe. Nama Amida Butsu, Nama Amida Butsu, Nama Amida Butsu, Nama Amida Butsu. What did your mother do?

[13:12]

My father, my father-in-law, you know, the Japanese restaurant. Yes. Then, every, every month, every month, a priest came to my home, house, and I chanted the sutra. Particularly, on the occasion, on the Memorial Days, Memorial Days of my family's death. Then, every month, sometimes, once a month or sometimes, twice a month or sometimes, three, three times a month. The priest came to my home and chanted the sutra.

[14:13]

At that time, my parents, all children, they stopped working. They sat behind the priest and chanted the sutra together. Would you say your family was unusually religious, or maybe that the average religious interest? You know, the, you know, particularly those who are believing Amitabha, the presence of Amitabha, those who belong to the Sinskul are very honest, very honest. The spirit of the Buddhist, this is very general sense. This is, this state of spirit of Sinskul Buddhist is very in general sense.

[15:21]

Not, not only in terms of their ritual, you know, but then those who belong to them don't chant the sutra so much every morning, every night, you know. I don't know, this is very interesting point. The, what, the, what you will find in Japan, this is one of the tendencies of, the tendencies which, the, which depends on the, which depends on the people, what kind of religion they believe. Would you say the people who believe in the Sinskul are more strict in their tradition than them?

[16:29]

No, no. Anyway, I think so, I think so, at least in Japan. Are there more people in the Sinskul than in the Zen sect in Japan, or more than the Sinskul? In Japan, the Sinskul is biggest one. Then next Zen. The, particularly the, the, you know, there is very interesting tendency of Japanese. For instance, you will find famous priest, you know, coming from the family belonging to, who belonged to the Sinskul. From childhood they, they brought up, they were brought up, they brought up under the very strict, you know, the very honest spirit.

[17:38]

Are your parents living today? No. My mother died at 15, 14, 14 years old. When you were born? Yeah, when I was 14 years old. And my father died 20, 23, after becoming a Zen priest. Did your brothers and sister die in the war? No. So, anyway, this is my, this is reason, strong reason why I became a priest.

[18:41]

Since, since my childhood, I had, I had had the chance to see, to see the priest, and to meet the great occasion, the chance to meet the practice of Buddhism. Ah, my mom. I don't need someone else. Quintessential. Quintessential. But it took them one year of working in a company, a factory, to make you decide to go into, into a priesthood? Yes. But at that time, my father was against, you know, quite really against, against my idea of which became, which would become a priest.

[19:53]

Why the priesthood? Because I was just the only one, you know, the only one who supported my family, you know. My father and my father's, my brother's wife and child. But even though they, my father had some money, seemingly was, would be, would be, you know, good enough to support himself, but I didn't, it was not much. Were you, how come you were in support, and your brother's wife's support? Was that because you were the youngest? No, my father couldn't work, because my father, during, during the Second World War, my father completely, not completely, mostly blind.

[21:12]

Through injuries during the war? Yeah, during the war, war. My father got injured in his eye. He couldn't see clearly. But how come your other brothers, your sisters didn't help you? My brother and brother, all brothers, they were out of my father, because they were, two of them, two of them were in China. They, they asked for army and navy. The rest of the brothers were in Kyoto and Osaka.

[22:20]

They taking, having, taking a big responsibility for helping the, you know, the, you know, the, at that time, the Second World War, the Second World War. So, at that time, my two, the rest of the brothers, you know, they lived in Kyoto and Osaka, you know, concentrated on supporting their father. They don't have, they didn't have enough time to come back, particularly my father lived in the country, in the country. It was pretty difficult for my father to have lived in the country, because so far, after the Second World War, before the Second World War, they lived in the city, you know, in the city.

[23:35]

So, the country people looked at my father and my brother and my brother's wife, if they were completely strangers. But my father, my father was born there, in the same country. And then there's the father's relative, my mother's relative, and the family was strange. They don't, they, they didn't, they didn't support him, they didn't help him. So, it was very difficult for them. And during, during World War, you know, country people were very difficult to live, to have lived.

[24:40]

During World War, the country people, country people were very difficult to have lived in comparison with the city people. So, at that time, my father, during World War, was better, better life than the country people. Like, my father's relative, you know, at that time, he didn't support, he didn't help the country people. After that, the situation was completely upside down. Then, just only me, at that time, helped my father, and my wife, my brother's wife couldn't, couldn't work.

[25:49]

No, he, he was, he was in China at that time. But after a year, even if your father didn't approve, you went ahead? After, even though your father didn't approve, you went ahead to become a priest anyway? Even without his approval? No. But you, how old were you then? Eighteen years old. You had been? Yes. You had been in the army or in the navy? In the army. At eighteen years old, September 4th, I went to the Panthangon. Where? In the North Greek prefecture. How did you decide to go into the military? A friend of mine was, was born, he was the, sort of then, priest's son.

[27:06]

The, who was a friend, a classmate at the high school, my high school, my high school age. Then he, at that time I was, I lived in Tsuruga, Tsuruga City, and a friend, he lived in Takefu City, in the same village as Tatsugamihoshi. So to take a bike, it took about the, at that time, two hours by train to go to school. Every morning, pretty hard. Then during the examination, the period of examination, he used to stay at my home and study together. Then at the fourth grade, I felt I was gradually intimate with him.

[28:15]

Sometimes I visited his temples. Then I, I know what the temple, Zen temple is. Then his mother, his mother introduced my teacher, my teacher, to me. He, who, who was the abbot of my temple, in Wakasa, in Fukui Prefecture. At the same temple as your friend was? Before going, before the visiting, visiting this temple, I went to one more temple to ask, let me become a priest.

[29:20]

The abbot of this temple refused to accept me. So, his mother introduced another temple. This is the same temple as I have now. Did you want to make, is it a big thing to choose between the shin-select and the zen-select? It's not difficult. No. I didn't, I didn't think so. I, I didn't think so. So... No, no experience. Yeah. And I felt, I feel so, so intimate, the feeling, the intimate feeling. I had so intimate feeling from his, my son's father, who was Zen priest.

[30:32]

Your friend's father? Yes. Had you done any meditation in Zazen before that? No. And so you went without any money, is that it? You, when you go to a temple, does the temple support you? Yes, my, my master, my master support me, support me. So, no money. And this was the father of your friend, did he become your master? No, no. You mean my friend's father? Was he your master? Yes. My friend's father is his master. You said your master supported you.

[31:34]

And I was asking, was your master the same priest who was the head of this temple? In my temple? Yes. That, his name is Daijo Hayashi. Okay. Do you want to spell that for me? Daijo, D-A-I-C-H-O, Hayashi, H-A-Y-A-S-H-I, Hayashi. So this was the same man who was the father of your friend? No, no, this is my, my master. My master, this is Daijo Hayashi, is my master. Our friend of mine's father is a different priest. I thought he was at that temple. No, no. His father was not at that temple. A different temple, yes. Then his mother introduced my master to me.

[32:39]

So you and your friend were at the same temple? Hm? Were you and your friend at the same temple? No. No. You started at that temple where your friend was? Or you just got acquainted with temple life because he was there and you had visited? No, when my friend of mine visited my home, at the time my home was not temple. Yes, I understand. But you said you had developed intimate acquaintance with the temple where your friend came from. From visiting him there. Yeah. And he had a very intimate feeling about them. Then temple life. Then temple, yes. But that was not the temple where you stayed. No, it was a different temple. His mother introduced you. Yes. To a then priest, then master. My master. Daichō Hayashi.

[33:44]

So right away you entered a temple, got a master, started to train. As a monk? As a monk. But at that time for one month I didn't, I didn't. As I was just, I was there as a layman. Because I didn't have, I didn't yet have Buddhist ordination. Then I went to, I went to this temple at the 19, that's the September 4th, 19, 1920, no, 1940. Yes.

[34:50]

I think 1946. 46. Yeah, to this temple and I had the ordination the October 10th of this year. What was the name of that temple? Taizō-in. Taizō-in. T-A-I-Z-O-I-N. All right, how long did you stay there? Before going to the A.H. monastery, I was, I was there for October, September, October, November, December, January, February, March. Eight months.

[35:54]

Eight months. Then I went to the A.H. in April next year. 47? 47. Did your master decide at this time for you to go to the A.H.? Yes, the first, my master recommended me to go, recommended me to go to the, one of Rinzai school, Rinzai temple. It was not strong, the recommendation to me. As a suggestion, he gave, he recommended me to go to the Rinzai temple. At that time I had completely any idea what kind of, how many schools there are, there were as Rinzai or Sōrō.

[37:02]

I didn't know that. I had no idea of priest or Buddhism. Then I would like to just follow the first idea which he recommended me to go to the A.H., so I would like to really to go to the A.H. first. That was his first recommendation? Yeah. And then he also said maybe to go to Rinzai. Was he a Rinzai or Sōrō priest? He's a master Sōrō priest, but he practiced, he had practiced in the Rinzai temple. I don't know how many years he was practicing in the Rinzai. What was the name of him? At that time?

[38:04]

At that time I was sixty, maybe sixty. I don't remember exactly, maybe sixty-three or four. Was this the man that you were talking about, the last day of the Shinto? May I watch, may I watch your video? Yeah. So that episode occurred during this six-month period? No, after that, after coming back from A.H. How long did you stay at A.H.? Three years, three years and a few months. Yeah, three years, three years and a few months. Were there other monks studying with your master at the time that you were at A.H.? Yeah, when I, when I went to this temple, my master had another disciple,

[39:18]

but another disciple who was in Hokkaido, not in his temple, Hokkaido. Then, a couple of months later, he died in Hokkaido. The other disciple? Uh-huh. And, just, the disciple was just gone, anyway. Anyway. Before, he'd taken care of seven disciples, anyway, so far. But all the disciples, some disciples, some disciples gave up the continuing practice, some disciples turned to his previous life, some disciples committed suicide.

[40:23]

And you were the only one left? Yeah. Of the seven? Yes. You mean, during his entire teaching career, he had seven disciples, but only one continued to practice? Yeah. Is that not common? It's not common, it's not common. But some of them must have, as disciples, ten or more than ten. But do most disciples tend to not stay? They, sometimes, they all stay to practice. This case is, I think, unusual. I was very sorry for him. You stayed three years and some months in Emeiji.

[41:28]

That's a little longer than average, isn't it? Hm? That's a little longer than average to stay. Yes, at that time. But some, quite a few, stayed more than three years. Some monks stayed for five or seven. This is quite a few cases. How did you decide when to leave? Actually, Hashimoto Roshi, Zen Master, he was my great Zen Master, who let me, let me to know what the practice of Zen Buddhism was.

[42:32]

At Emeiji? Yes. At that time, he had occasion of opening Zen Monastery in Nagoya City. And, Nagoya City, I think, Nagoya, in Nagoya Prefecture, anyway. Then, I decided to go there to practice, in the guidance of this Zen Master, Hashimoto Roshi. But my Master was against my idea, because he was, he grew older, gradually. He was a little difficult to take care of the business of the temple, you know. Then, he wanted me to go back to the temple to help him.

[43:39]

So, actually, I didn't want to go back to the temple, I accepted his request to go back to the temple. So, at the time that Hashimoto Roshi left to open this new Zen Temple, that was the time that you should have wanted to go with him? Yeah. But, you asked your Master's permission? Yeah. At that time, he said, no, please come here and help me. So, that was how you came to return? By will? Yes. So, Hashimoto Roshi, the Ima, or some other? Godo Roshi, Godo. Godo is the position, chief position, the position of training monk. That's the position you have in order to start, the head of training? The head of training. This position is very important in the monastery.

[44:43]

Did you work especially closely with Hashimoto Roshi? Most of the whole years, when I was in the monastery, I had to pay close attention to Hashimoto Roshi. When you were in Banja, did you show up? Yes. I was not a disciple, a bishop for him. I was an anja. I don't remember exactly how long, but maybe more than one year. And, I had a chance to become a shiso. I paid, and he guided me so much. Did you become a shiso?

[45:46]

Yes. How long period were you a shiso? 100 days. Then, in the A.H. monastery, we have a custom to have a lecture of shobo genzo. And, given by a certain outstanding Zen master, at that time, Hashimoto Roshi gave a lecture of shobo genzo every year. Every night? Every year. Every year? For six weeks. A lecture of shobo genzo? Shobo genzo. Once a year. A lecture of shobo genzo for six weeks. When I went to A.H.,

[46:48]

at that time, one of the famous Zen master, Rinzai, the Zen master, not Rinzai, not Soro, the middle... The little boy? Yeah, boy, like Yastani Roshi. His name, Harada, Sogaku Harada. He was very famous Zen master. He was at A.H.? No. He was invited by A.H. to answer the lecture of shobo genzo. I had just once to listen to his lecture. At that time, I didn't understand completely. After that, Hashimoto Roshi came to A.H.

[47:50]

At that time, at first, the first lecture I listened to was Fukanza Zenki. Fukanza Zenki. I was very interested by this lecture. At that time, what Zazen was, how great Zazen was, then I started to Zazen more and more. Then, at every lecture of his shobo genzo, I was always there. Are you talking about your father, Roshi? Or Hashimoto? Who are you talking about? Who's lecture are you talking about now? Now, Hashimoto Roshi, yeah. How many months were they teaching at A.H.? 120 months. You must have been outstanding at that time.

[48:55]

Do you have any questions about that? In Japan, even the position of the shuso was not... was not charged by the, you know, the outstanding monks in A.H. So, we are first... We first find some monks who want to become shuso. Then we choose. The other ones. You choose for one of those who want to be? If you want to be? Yeah. Is that how they choose? Anja? Yeah, Anja. The position, any position,

[49:57]

should be given by the kannin. The kannin are tsusu. So, if the tsusu who discussed with the ino, you know, how they should arrange the people, give it a certain position, fit to them, fit to him, monk. Then if monks were given a certain position, they couldn't make a complaint.

[51:03]

They have to, at any cost, accept. So, the unfortunate thing was, I was given the Anja of Kodoroshi. Were you shuso after that, or before that? After that. When you went back to your master's temple, how long did you stay there? I can't remember exactly. It was 1947 that you went to A.H. Yeah. 1947, August, 1947, went to A.H. 1, 8, 9,

[52:08]

I think 1950, in 1950 I went back to my temple. And 51, and 52, I think I stayed. My temple. What? 15, 15. Maybe 1950, in 1952, I went to the college, Komusawa University. Maybe I think so. I don't know.

[53:14]

Yeah. 1950, in 1952, well, I went to Komusawa University. Yeah. 53, 54, 55, 55, 55. Yeah. In 1956, I graduated from this school. Buddhism, general Buddhism. Bachelor, yes.

[54:26]

Then, after graduation from this school, I stayed at Komusawa University to study, to study Buddhism more, but this is not a master course. This is not a master course. This is a special institute of studying Buddhism from a different angle in order to teach Buddhism to people, actually, practically, not scholarly, not to teach to understand.

[55:34]

So, for three years. Three more years? Three more years, I was at Komusawa University. We call it, we call it, this institute was called Kyoka Kenshujo, Kenshujo, Kyoka, Kyoka, K-y-o-k-a, Kenshujo, K-e-n, K-e-n-s-h-u, S-h-u, Kenshujo, Kenshujo, S-h-o, Kenshujo. Yes. No, he wasn't,

[56:37]

he wasn't agree with my continuation of the study, but I asked him again and again to stay at Komusawa University. Then he was agree. So you were away from here for seven years? Yes, but during the, during the student, while I was a college student, I went back to the temple very often, New Year, and the open ceremony, and sometimes Higan ceremony, equinox, or sometimes on the occasion of a special ceremony,

[57:38]

held at my temple. But you went back just for the ceremony? Just for the ceremony, for helping my master. So at least I would stay there for three months, two months or three months, when I came back to the temple to help. Oh, you might stay for two or three months? Yeah. And then come back to, went back to school. So it was vacation time? Yeah, vacation time. And particularly in summer, I was completely free for three months or so. In winter, I think, one year, one month. Okay, next one is fifty-nine. Fifty-seven, fifty-eight, fifty-nine,

[58:48]

thirty-six, thirty-one, fifty-nine. Three? One, two, three. And then I, I helped in the nineteen-fifty-nine, I helped to, I helped the headquarter of the solo school. Particularly in the, working in the division of the, what would you say, I translated this division, the name of this division, Evangelization, something like that. This section,

[59:53]

is to take care of how to, how to teach the Buddhism, particularly Zen Buddhism, to the people, according to their circumstances, the country side, or city. But this section is to research always how to teach. I helped this section, I think for three years. Then I came to the United States. Were you the head of that section? No, not head, the other staff.

[60:59]

Yes. Mostly, three months, three months, more than three months, a year, average, average. I went out of the headquarter to teach, and sometimes, sometimes to the old people, sometimes to young people. Where did you start, at what point did you start teaching? I guess you were teaching before this. Did you start to teach when you came back from Ehechi instead? No. You mean not this particular place? Just in general, where did your teaching career begin? No. So when you came back to Taiso

[62:08]

again, for 1950, 1952, you weren't teaching, you were temple duties. Yes, I did. You were teaching? Yes, to people, who belonged to my temple. Yes, I did. Was that getting personal, counseling, or was it lectures? Lecture or personal counsel, both. And the children, too. And your master was still alive at this time? Yes. After coming here, my master died. So I think, three years ago, no, four, five years ago, I think, he died.

[63:10]

You have had only one master? Yes. Is that unusual? I've heard that you could have two or three masters? Oh, I have two masters. The other one is Hashimoto Hoshi. He's also your master? My master, Taicho Hayashi is first my master, who gave the ordination to me. Who ordained me. The second master, the other master, is the second teacher who guided me, guided me to understand what the practice of Dogen's Buddhism,

[64:11]

what the practice of Buddhism is. This is second my master. And who gave you transmission? The first teacher. So you had two masters at the same time? Or do you think, kind of listen to one or put one aside? The second master, we don't have a special rules. This is second master. This is just the personal. The personal master. But first master is my personal and also public. The official. Because I have to I have to to be registered. Registered.

[65:11]

Registered. The, you know, as one of solo priest. Yeah, official priest. And that time I have to give my master's name. This is Daikyo Hayashi. And Hashimoto was just my personal teacher. When did you receive transmission? I think after five years after becoming a priest. That would be 51. That would be after you came back to my age. Yeah. Maybe six. I don't remember exactly. No, no, no. Maybe one, two, three, four, five years.

[66:15]

I think so. Five. In 19, I think 1951. I think so. No, not yet. At that time. I took over my master's temple to the 19, I think 1956. 1956. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But actually he taking care of all things while I was

[67:16]

I was out. Did he agree with your training or did he oppose it? No, he was he was really for my ideas mostly. The first time when I when I had the idea to go to the Hashimoto Roshi was against but against me but the next time my master was very open generous for me. He had a generous mind.

[68:17]

So actually in his mind he wanted he wanted me to go out but he always allowed he always allowed me to continue to do something. We were a small temple. The family 46 families Very small. Yeah. Very small. And the practice there was not Zazen? No, not in Zazen. We don't we don't have a special period later period but later time of practice of Zazen. The effort the special ceremony or memorial service

[69:23]

was traditional in a traditional way. In general. So the rest of the duties were as they came up. I mean there was temple cleaning but as far as counseling or helping people it was when they came to you for help when they had problems was that how you worked with them? What? When we have the temple has a set temple has when they're when we perform special ceremony and people came to the temple and help clean the temple but usually they don't come so much. They don't come so much. How about when somebody dies or somebody has a problem in his life or somebody gets very sick? When they when they come to they came to the temple

[70:26]

it was when they have they have some problem in life asking me so asking me how to how to get over When did you lecture? What was the occasion? I was born occasionally as Christians Sensei, it's almost 12.30 Would you like to have lunch or continue talking? Yes, continue Oh, you have come This is fine When do you have to quit? When do you have to go back? Yes, no No talking? No, no talking Then, can you tell me the circumstances of your coming to America? You said you were let's see

[71:27]

for three years you worked in the institute and you worked at Soda Headquarters for three years? For three years So that was 59 to 60 61? Yes, you saw No, 60 Yes, 61 I think so How did it happen that you came here? And then at the headquarters I took care of also the the amount of of the you know, the abroad The overseas? Overseas Yes They have

[72:29]

the Soda Temples Soda Temples or the activities of the Soda Temples Soda Schools abroad in overseas is going on I also taking care of this task So at the headquarters headquarters was asking me to go to the Los Angeles because at that time Yamada Bishop Yamada had the idea to to to establish the new institute like in Shinjuku and in Los Angeles and as one of the

[73:31]

students the headquarters asked me to to go there so I had the chance to come to the Los Angeles Did you want to come to the United States? Was it a duty? I would like to sooner or later I would like to I really want to go to overseas anyway But it was very difficult for me at that time to have a chance to go to the hope to go to abroad Why was it difficult? Because the Zen temple in the overseas was not rich very poor financial situation very poor they couldn't

[74:33]

accept extra something they couldn't accept minister so they so they have to keep they have they have to keep anyway minister in the minimum in order to keep their financial situation So you mean that Los Angeles temple that you came to was very poor? Yes, very poor not so rich in comparison with the Shinshu in Japan? No, Shinshu in the United States the Buddhist Church of America Yeah, very rich The Buddhist Church of America that's the Shinshu Shinshu, yes Was that the reason

[75:34]

it was difficult for you to come? Were there other reasons? I think politically you know they they what whenever whenever they decide who is sent who who must be sent for the United States they always try to do something in terms of political sense complicated so I am not an expert for taking care of political sense it was very difficult Were you a political choice? But the three years I was I was at the headquarters then maybe he

[76:36]

he understood that he is he is he is not so complete he is didn't qualify to be the minister he did not It turned out to be a monastery? No, not monastery the usual style temple So you came to work with the Japanese? Yes So that was 61? 61 61, yeah I stayed in Los Angeles for 5 months and then I came to San Francisco in order to polish my English

[77:37]

more going to the dark school working at one of the American firm and that was my first idea why I came to San Francisco but at that time Gene Ross was saying San Francisco he knew where I was so I had the chance to see her and you had met her in that interview? Yeah then she recommended me to help the sensei on the other hand I was I was thinking of thinking of if I see the Tsukiyoshi at the Sokoji temple because he was the

[78:38]

abbot of the Sokoji so I would like to see him anyway on the other hand Gene Ross recommended me to help the sensei but that was just Gene Ross idea so I didn't decide it so anyway I went to the Sokoji temple and then not alone I stayed I think Tsukiyoshi they had Tsukiyoshi and Gene Ross at the temple talk about each other but me Tsukiyoshi recommend me to ask me to come to

[79:39]

the Sokoji to help the sensei and Sokoji no not completely as a student as one of the students of that institute I was accepted and was allowed to stay at the Sokoji for the purpose of practicing of Buddhism at the Sokoji with Japanese people and Zen students for two years that was my way for staying at the institute of established the Sokoji temple

[80:39]

in Los Angeles at the institute was sort of the same kind same kind same kind I had I had been in Japan you know the Choka Kenshu Joka so you were you came as a student to the Sokoji and then after two years I became a minister I was appointed to serve Sokoji and the Zen center at the institute at that point you ended your relationship with the Los Angeles temple did you have responsibilities down there during the first two years did you come and go between Los Angeles and San Francisco

[81:39]

no just that's there you were there for five months when you came up here you lost lost your education you lost your job yes that was that was 61 yes so 10 years you've been here oh 10 no 61 62 61 now I was this year is 1971 the October of this year it was it was 8 years 8 years since coming here in the coming of the October then past October

[82:39]

you will be 8 years 8 years 8 years becoming long October will be 8 years yes so something he must have come in 63 63. 63. Yes, I think so. 63. Oh, I was at the so-called headquarters for four years, I think. 63. 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah, that's right.

[83:41]

From 1959 to 1963, I was there. So, did you know that Americans were in Japan before you came? I don't remember exactly. He had some group in San Francisco, the home of Dumbledore.

[84:52]

He had the whole nation in Taipei, and he teaches Buddhism in San Francisco at his home. Oh, where did you meet him? In Haiti? No, when I was at the headquarters, I met the Price, and Jane Ross, too. And me, too. Elsie, too? Yes, me, too. But the reason that you came to this country initially was because a Los Angeles-needed somebody in the central headquarters felt that you would be a good person to send because of the work you had to do in the area? I don't know. Maybe. I think so. So, you didn't have too much contact with Westerners before you came over?

[86:01]

No. So, your first experience was with them? Yes, that's right. It was my first experience. When did you get married? Well, when I was 32 years old. Yeah, 32 years old. And now I'm 92. I think. Yeah. 1960. And your son was born here? No, in Japan, in 1961. Oh, he's 10 years old this year. Yes, the coming September, he will become 10.

[87:06]

And you came over by yourself for two years? By myself, yes. Was it your feeling when you came to this country that you would stay for a while? Just for a while, two years. That was my idea and that was my feeling, staying for two years. Have you ever been back to Japan? Just once. Yes, once. When we had the ceremony, the funeral service of three archbishops. Our death, our funeral, something like that, in Japan, three years ago. One, two, three, in Japan. For how long?

[88:09]

Three months. Are you still the head of the temple? Yes. You're the head of the temple. And Hashimoto, where is he now living? Three, four, five years. The same years as the three archbishops died, he died. So you do not have a memory of him? No. I guess I'd like to have you say whatever you feel like saying about your experiences in working with Americans and trying to teach American students. Do you feel that, what do you feel is the best way to teach or the good way to teach?

[89:19]

The lectures or the personal relationships, the personal contact? Just through your presence? In whatever way? How do you feel about the teaching of Americans? Well, it's the best way to teach American students. I'm not even sure what my question is, but I guess I'd like you to say something about being here in America, working with Americans, and being a teacher. Because I had a very strong sense as you were lecturing during session about the tremendous responsibility you have to try to communicate to us, to try to make clear all the time, all the time.

[90:22]

It's so deep, it's so hard to put into words. And you do it, you keep telling us to stand upright on our own two feet in this disillusioned world. That's something we have to come to experience. I guess I want to know maybe what you have to say about what it's like to be a teacher here in this country, working with Americans. It's a pretty difficult question, because when I try to explain about this question, it's pretty difficult, because the way of teaching is complicated. Of course, not only the teaching of ability, but whatever you do,

[91:27]

you have to take care of something with mindful attention. To your life, to your own life, to my own life, to the situation of the group. And so as to penetrate, so as to let the compassionate spirit penetrate, it penetrates everywhere anyway, of the personal situation or group situation. So everyday, in my everyday life, I have to see many things with calmness.

[92:42]

Now, in terms of my own life, also in terms of students' individuals, the students' individual situation, or the situation of the group, as I said, not only at the present, but also in the past, in the present, and also in the future. I have to think, I have to see.

[93:21]

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