I think one other important point about the Kiyosaku is that, and I don't know what the tone of the use of the Kiyosaku is here, but there had been in the earlier days of our sangha a kind of style or tone that could be easily called macho, really kind of heavy use of the Kiyosaku, and that's really part of the stereotype of Zen that comes from Japan and from some lines of Zen. I think just through feedback to Tanto, to the people using the stick, we have encouraged a much gentler style in our dojo, and having women in that position helps to encourage that style, and also giving men feedback, that kind of very heavy style, either in the way the stick is used, in hitting the person, or else in the words that accompany the... Tanto is the person in our dojo who speaks, who can speak in meditation periods. That's interesting, you just made me realize something.

[01:11]

We have quite a number of women carrying the stick in ours, I know, and they tend, I think, I'm not supposed to quote, but I tend to not be able to hit hard. To sort of, it's just not... Maybe, I'm sure there are exceptions to this too. Oh, lots of confirmation. This is probably my fantasy, that they tend not to be able to hit hard, but I think there's a tendency in that direction, that women find it harder to hit hard, and I just noticed an attitude that I had about it, that I didn't realize I had, which was a kind of contempt for women, because they're sort of pancake, you know, they're sort of scared to hit hard, and they shouldn't be, you know. But it never occurred to me to think of that positively. And never in my life, when I was pregnant, did I have this experience that came out of my body, is I refused the stick.

[02:13]

Somebody came along to hit me, because I was sleeping, and I just, well, the first time they tried to, I didn't move. It came out of my body, and the second, another occasion it happened, and I thought, well, Linda, don't do that, so I took the first hit. And involuntarily, I turned around and... Before they could give me the second hit. Anyway, so that does seem to come... I usually don't act from my body, because I don't usually act from my head, but since I was pregnant, so you just made me aware of the stick thing. I think it's been an interesting issue, in the sense that it's... I know for myself, and for other people that I've talked to, that my initial experience of the stick, and my assumptions about it, were really horrifying, and just thought it was barbaric and disgusting, and then... Then, in a sitting or a session, I found that the use of the stick really saved my life.

[03:19]

It made it possible for me to get through... I mean, I almost got off the ton and kissed the junk of it. For that favor. And so, it's hard to have a one-sided view. Yeah, definitely. There's really a lot to learn. It really... it's the balance again. In our dojo, we never have to stick the first period. It's appropriate, as I have understood it, to settle in that period for us. And after that... Yeah, I like it myself.

[04:25]

It's still during Sashin's novel. The first period and the last period. There's several periods. I think it's moved... it's sort of ebbed and flowed in different directions over the years. Different... yeah, different forms. I really appreciate you coming here and opening, maybe in a real open way, this dialogue, and I appreciate you coming to San Francisco for hosting it. It feels like everyone has their story. I personally have had to repress a lot about the patriarchal nature, it seems to me, of this practice, and I left it for quite a number of years because of that. And then I just... when I had to come back, I just sort of said, OK, I'm going to do this, I'm patriarchal, but that's not important. So I'm experiencing all this stuff that's been shoved under for a long time,

[05:28]

and it feels like just the beginning, like a really good beginning of a dialogue. So many aspects. And I hope that it will continue. Um... I just started copying here about three weeks ago, and I had done the same thing. I'm really interested in this, and I feel very warm here. But I have to keep... I'm very sensitive to feminism and any kind of patriarchy, honestly. Women do that. They do the belt. Men do that. So I'm having some of that, too, so I'm real excited about this, too, because I feel like it's opening the dialogue, and I wanted to understand a lot more of what's going on, and also what's changing. I wanted to say, if people are open to hearing a little bit about the changes we've been in Khan's study, is that something people would like to hear about? Yes. Um...

[06:30]

Some of the sheets that I passed out, only a few, have some cases from the Mu'min Khan. Have a look. It'd be the very back of your sheet if you have it. And it's... Again, I can read these a lot. It's just something to look on if you have it. Is she going to use it? In our... Why don't you take it? Do you want it? Yeah. Before we stop discussing ritual, I wanted to... I hear you.

[07:34]

Before we stop discussing ritual, I wanted to bring up something that I've been thinking about for a while, which is that in this convention, anyway, everything from the full moon to, you know, anniversaries of various deaths and whatnot is celebrated with quite elaborate ceremonies, and there's no official ceremony to celebrate births in the community. And one thing I was wondering, We had a birth in our sangha, our last session about three weeks ago, four weeks ago. And the child was going to be born, not in the dojo, but in the zendo. But the woman had to go to the hospital. It was the first time that a child was going to be born in the zendo.

[08:37]

But though she had to go to the hospital, she came back, and we finished the session with a ceremony. And the closing ceremony of session was the ceremony for the birth of the child. So that's the first time that we've done that. And it was really lovely. We did a dedication, including Kansai-on and Jizo, those being associated with children in Japan. I think maybe traditionally in Japan, the reason that deaths have ceremonies and births done is that births were Shinto, is that correct? And that the Buddhist priest took care of the deaths and the Shinto priest took care of the births. But we don't have to take that on. It doesn't seem to me. Was the ceremony mostly in the zendo? I'm actually kind of interested in what the ceremony was. Well, our ceremonies are often kind of made up by Eiken Roshi for that time,

[09:39]

and I don't know how much basis it has in anything inherited. I think not so much. But what we did was simply the mother and the father offered incense, and there was an incense offering for the baby done by a friend. And then the ino, which is the person for us who both hits the bells and sings the chants, did a dedication. We did the Kansai-on, everyone together, and then we did a dedication that said something like, The Ancient Seven Buddhas Daisho, Shakyamuni Buddha Daisho, Great Compassionate Kansai-on Daisho, Earth Treasury Jizo Daisho, All Founding Teachers, Past, Present, Future Daisho. We welcome this baby, the name, into the sangha. There's a beautiful last line. Oh dear, I can't remember.

[10:42]

Anyway, there's a kind of lovely last line, and that was it. Very simple. You also have a ceremony for abortion. I could talk about that too. I think Eiken Roshi spoke about that about a year ago, the abortion ceremony. Okay. We're on to something. I'll speak of that for a moment, and then I'll speak about Khan Study. I've only been here two weeks, and I would just like to share my perception here. I feel what I'm feeling right now. I came here, and I have been sensitive to the feminist issue. Whenever I'm not sufficiently, I get tweeted out to me. To see how I felt about this, I just felt this is something beautiful and exciting for this to be happening.

[11:46]

What is happening right here now is I have been very impressed. Now, when I see people talking about the oldest, from my point of view, outdated thing that feminists can do is look at the language and count how many women have achieved success in male terms. That is my criticism of the women's movement as David has been defined in male terms. To go back to that old stuff, when there is a dynamic here that is happening that I think is just very impressive and beautiful, I just couldn't not say something. We're going to start that whole thing here again, because I just see something really beautiful here that I would just like to see. You have been dealing with this matter of patriarchy and so forth.

[13:04]

As a question of translation, and it's one way. But the more fundamental thing is there are lots of sexist statements in sutras, which are regarded as scripture in sacred literature, and most importantly, it's dharma. As a form of dharma, it's given. So, how do you deal with it? Do you accept it as truth? Or, somehow, you just regard it as a kind of partial historical statement, which we cannot accept as truth. Like, even in the Lotus Sutra, this kind of women's enlightenment is impossible, unless a woman turns into a man, right? So, this kind of thing. Usually, in Catholic society, the council determines

[14:05]

if this is acceptable, doubting, or not. But I don't think Zen Center Council discusses this. Probably Roshi can make the determination that we can accept it as truth or not. Maybe no other person can do it. Well, my response to that is a really important point, about the inherited dogma. And there's no doubt some very heavy inherited dogma, starting with that women cannot achieve enlightenment, a second phase or dimension of that, that women must become men in order to become enlightened. And then the third is that women can become enlightened just as they are. And as far as I'm concerned, the experience is that women can become enlightened just as they are. And so, what we're based on, what Zen is very clearly based on, is our experience. And so, with that, we don't have to worry about the dogma.

[15:12]

But here we recite those sutras in our service. Oh, you do? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Oh, you do? We've never heard of them in our service. You know, the Prajnaparamita Sutra, all the millions of pages of it, has now been recited once, and will probably be recited again, that would be the most effective service. But anyway. That's heavy stuff. When I get to that stuff, anyway, the issue has been raised here. But still, it's read in a rote fashion. We can get to it. Women's stuff is the most obvious. But, you know, it also touches on other oppressed elements of society, you know, workers, low people, various sorts. Huh? Foolish college people. Foolish college people. Foolish college people. We can all associate ourselves with that.

[16:12]

Anyway, so people do recite it, and I perceive that as destructive to ourselves when we recite it. Things change slowly here, and there's no virtue in that. I've raised this point, you know, I think that every time we recite that, we destroy something in ourselves and in the world. But it's a heavy point to start deleting parts of the sutra. That's hard, too. I mean, the thing that, the graphic part of it, I think is difficult for some in the sense that when you get down to describing in the 32 Marks of Buddha the quality of the genitals, then you really feel left out. I'm a slackey, aren't I? Slackey.

[17:19]

You know, that's... We don't do those to say we don't have much ritual and we don't have a whole lot of trappings. And all I can say is it's really for people here to get together and to know, to identify those things. And in doing that, it doesn't seem as though the structure or any is static. And I feel as you do that to recite, you know, whatever, is it the Lotus Sutra, passages of the Lotus Sutra? Amita, when I was doing it, everything was Lotus Sutra. The idea of messing around with the sutras isn't really so heavy. The Chinese and the Japanese have done it quite liberally in the past. Yeah, I... Retranslating, abrogating, and outright just changing them. There's a good precedent there. There's a good precedent. I am a member of the group as a presenter also,

[18:27]

and when Will came over not long ago and gave a talk and said that someone here got into this whole topic somehow, took that turn, and said that someone in terms of a presenter was working on translation or different translations for some of these real sexist terms, and answers just one of them. And I'm just asking people from presenting whether that is actually happening and what the progress of that is. Does anyone else know about it? This will work. Does it seem to be really happening? If it's happening, it's not being publicized. I'm very kind of... I mean... Well, it's hard to say. It's just all changing. Including what? Well, actually... Can you guys find a way? I don't know. Can you reach that shot?

[19:43]

Can you reach it? For 20 years. That's a good one. Anyway. He's the official translator. That's what I've been doing. I've been trying to avoid... And when Jonathan and I talked about Parinirvana Sutra, somehow we said something like he, sometimes, and also sometimes said he, she. So somehow... Mixing it up. Yeah? Yeah. But I'm not so comfortable with that, because he, in that case, he can mean that person in English. And man, I feel quite uncomfortable about man. But not he, because... And if you can...

[20:45]

Sometimes you have to use... But we try to use you. You is neutral. You is very... Go ahead. And that's another belief that it needs to dissolve, I suppose. No, but I mean that seriously. In the sense that... Well, it obviously has. Right, but I'm saying that that's another idea. Well, I think it's a very hard thing to combat.

[21:50]

I think this practice is one of the better ways to combat it, but I think it... I mean, it is a slow process, and... It also affects you. I mean, it affects all of your life. And... I mean, I know in my own practice, obviously the thing that I'm most unconscious about, and that I've avoided the most, and that I'm most deeply entrenched, are usually the things that I'm not going to get to for a long time. And I think that's the same way. You know, if you're deeply sexist, I think this practice will affect you, but it takes a long time. I mean, the thing that's encouraging to me is that you can have imperfect carriers of these... You know, I like that. You know, that gives us all a lot of hope. The vessel doesn't have to be seamless. There'll be a few cracks here and there. Enough gets through, so that we manage to have this practice now,

[22:53]

even though there were a few... dorks along the way. Okay, good. I'll give a glimpse of the koan. Koan practice is very central in our own sangha. And the usual approach to that is that if a student comes after orientation and has a sense that the purpose of their practice is to gain insight into their true nature, then usually the practice that is assigned to that student is working with Mu. And that is, you know, the first koan, the Mumon Koan,

[23:54]

and the koan that many people in our practice take up, initially. In working intently over a period of weeks or years on that koan, one comes to an experience of Kensho or Satori. And from that initial experience, the student would then take up koan study proper. And that consists of a collection of koans, a number of collections of koans, beginning with the Miscellaneous Collection and then moving into the Mumon Koan, the Hekigan Roku, the Blue Cliff Record, and further books of koans. So that for a koan student in the practice, a tremendous amount of time on the cushion would be spent in meditating on a particular koan after working through the initial koan, Mu.

[24:55]

In taking up collections of koan, what one finds is examples like this, and it's not something that one can change so easily as man to he. Let's see now. Some examples. All these examples are from the Mumon Koan. Goso said, When you encounter a man of the Tao on the path, do not meet him with words or with silence. Tell me, how do you meet him? And Mumon's commentary is, In such a case, if you can meet him intimately, it will certainly be gratifying. If you cannot, you must be watchful in every way. And Mumon's verse, Meeting a man of the Tao on the path, meet him neither with words nor with silence. A punch in the jaw. If you want to realize, just realize. There are many examples like this, where the koan that you are working on,

[26:03]

that you're sitting on your cushion and working on, either includes becoming one with that koan in the imagery of man, or that 99% of the koan material is the dharma combat or interactions of monks from the Tang and Song period. Hoan of Tozan said, Even Shakya and Maitreya are servants of another. I want to ask you, who is he? Mumon's comment, If you really can see this other with perfect clarity, it is like encountering your own father at the crossroads. Why should you ask whether you recognize him or not? So, what we encounter and what we addressed in the most recent issue of Kaha Wai was the difficulty for feminists in the amount of time that they spend on their cushion meditating on koans, the material which is about men

[27:06]

or about becoming intimate with the man or he. And it's not something like the ritual with the kiyosaku or like the lineage that's easily resolvable. But we have made some attempts to take steps, at least, on this issue so that there are simple things to do, like in the koan, Hoan's, who is he? I want to ask you, who is she? If you can really see this other with perfect clarity, it's like meeting your mother at the crossroads. And so, to meditate on that has been found to be really refreshing, a really wonderful experience to spend your time on the cushion with that kind of a focus for women. And Roshi is really good at help. Oftentimes, well, always, the koan is given in the dokusan room

[28:06]

and Roshi, when he gives that koan and you recite it yourself over and over, he will give it with the pronoun appropriate to the person doing it or even, you know, maybe to men he'll give she's to, or vice versa. So, that's helpful. The newest thing that has come up for us is that Thomas Cleary, at Akin Roshi's request, began to search out any koan material that had women figures in it rather than men figures. Because, as I say, you can count on one hand all of our koan collections, the number of koan that have women characters, women main characters in them. Ryotetsuma is one koan, there's one with Myoshin, there are just hardly any at all. And so, to our delight, and I don't know where he found them, Thomas Cleary sent us now

[29:08]

three series of koan material. And what I began with, the woman living in a hut, is one of the ones I like very much. And I have lots, you know, lots. What's exciting about some of this material is that women are in Dharma combat with men that we know and women are doing very well. So that we have a woman in Dharma combat with Joshu or a woman in Dharma combat with Nansen. And this is tremendously exciting. When you have gotten to know these male figures over and over through working on koan with Joshu in them or working on koan with Nansen or working on koan with Baso or, you know, so on and so on, is that you've come to know the personalities of these men but you begin to meet some women at least through this material that hold their own. And in the most recent series...

[30:11]

Well, let me just read you one or two. Let's see. Magu... I'll use the Japanese, which is what we usually use. Mayaku, Nansen and another monk went to call on Keizan. On the way they met a woman whom they asked, which way is the road to Keizan? She said, right straight ahead. Mayaku said, the river ahead is deep. Can we cross it or not? The woman said, it doesn't wet the feet. He then asked, the rice on the upper bank is so good while the rice on the lower bank is so weak. The woman said, it's all been eaten by mud crabs. He then said, the grain is quite fragrant. The woman said, it has no smell. He asked, where do you live lady? She said, I'm just right here. When the three monks got to her shop, the woman prepared a pot of tea and brought three cups. She said to them, oh monks, let those of you with miraculous powers drink tea.

[31:13]

As the three looked at each other, the woman said, watch this decrepit old woman show her own miraculous power. Then she picked up the cups, poured tea and went out. So... Oh, this is a nice one. A woman once sent a man with some money to Joshu, requesting a recitation of the scriptures. Joshu, receiving the donation, got off his seat, walked around at once and said, tell the lady the scripture recitation is finished. The man went back and told her, she said, I asked him to recite all the scriptures, why did he do only half? So... There's some nice ones among those. The most recent series was exciting to me because in it, though it was not so much koan material, it was more biographical material. There were names and dates of women, two of whom were Dharma successors of Engo, Engo being one of the compilers of the Blue Cliff Record.

[32:19]

And so to find women Dharma successors of an important person like that is just a beginning piece in a puzzle that I'm probably going to spend my whole life putting together. But that was really very gratifying for me. Are there any questions about koan study or about women in it? Of the women's koans? Well, the most recent kahawai is on the table. And we're going to put the future material in future issues. Do you want these back? I'm just wondering if it's possible to make some arrangements to meet again, you know, within the San Francisco area to continue this discussion. 645 at Green Gulch?

[33:20]

I mean, on a continual basis. I mean, for us to be here, you know, this is a stimulus for us. You know, a lot of things have opened up. What we've found very truthfully in the Green Gulch group is a small group. I think this size group does a different kind of thing. And I think we need to have a... I don't know. I think there needs to be a lot of... I think it's more fertile to work in small groups and get together in big groups from time to time. That's my feeling. But what I hear your suggestion is then either a small group or several small groups given that the center is so large. We're just working through some of the things that have been generated. I want to say, too, that we've had men's groups and we've also had men's and women's groups. So I did emphasize the women's group, but we've had all kinds. Do you regularly have a circle? You mentioned a circle where you share. That's like once a week or... No, no, well, we have phases.

[34:22]

We haven't. We have a phase where we haven't started this yet. Yes, well, that's a good time to begin. We have phases, too. This kind of meeting happened, not quite in advance, but this kind of meeting happened several times, several years ago, and then died out, and now there's a small group that's been going on for over a year. It's more close-knit community. It's easier for it to happen. You know, whatever happens can happen. Invite some people over and start a conference. That's what happened at Greenville. You don't want the hierarchy to organize it for you, do you? No. Excuse me for saying so, but that's the way it happens. That's true. The way the group started at Greencoach was that there were three women who met probably for about six months talking about this before seven women went,

[35:24]

and then when seven women met, then 15, and then that's been continuing from there. But there was a long time when just three women met. You just start somewhere. This feels like a start, and I just want to put it out there so that we can generate the energy and channel it somewhere. But I actually think you'll see it more of a continuation than a start. It's not like this is the first such event. No, it's not. There's no beginning. There's no beginning or ending, right? Okay. Susan, thank you very much. Thank you.

[36:06]

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